Even though I don't really know you, and I have pi$$ed you off to a great degree, I am getting the picture that you were really really abused by VPW, and now that I am beginning to see it, I am really really sorry that you went through all of that. Please help me "un-ring that bell" by forgiving me for being an un-sensitive a$$. I really mean it. For I see that when issues like the one with my Corps sister comes up, the one that was raped on LEAD Highway, I see your heart in the matter more and more, and my heart goes out to you all the more. I am sorry, and I love you mucho en Christo...
And Ex10, I don't expect you to reveal the name of that gal, unless you want to in the private topics. I could have sworn that it happened during our first year in that LCM made the "announcement" about the situation while he was our in rez coordinator. but obviously my memory is foggy, and you are probably right...
At any rate, that detail doesn't really matter, because no matter what year it was, our sweet sistah was still raped and hurt and then was cast out, and that was really terrible. Do you know any more details? I have always wondered about that situation...
quote:Kevin & I were in the cab of the white pickup riding along at highway speeds going over my LEAD evealuation. Kevin was driving and he was holding the eval form across the steering wheel with his hands at 3'oclock and 9'oclock, so he could read it. As he looked up & down at the road & then at the form asking questions we both noticed that he was having a little trouble keeping the truck going straight down the road.
The wind seemed to pick up & it was a gusting crosswind. I kinda hesitated to answer the questions and at one point we both sorta looked at each other like... "This is pretty dangerous." I remember looking down at the seat between us as Kevin took the form and placed it down. The instant he looked away from the road the truck started heading off the road onto the right shoulder.
Kevin started to take corrective action. (He pulled the truck to the right until all the wheels on the right side of the truck were in the gravel shoulder, including the trailer. We were bouncing but not ot badly.) Then we started to lose it. When he turned to the left to get the truck back all the way on the road the truck bounced violently.
The driver was doing two things at once while behind the wheel, and solely responsible for twenty some lives. Had his attention been a little less divided, he might have begun to notice changing conditions a few seconds earlier. Those seconds, at "highway speeds," (50 mph = 73 feet/second) could have made all the difference.
Anybody who drives while talking on a cell phone knows their attention level is diminished in the process, and their driving ability is compromised. Sorry, if you think you're different, it's a little like saying you're fine driving drunk. Research indicates otherwise. It's not such a stretch to suggest reading an evaluation form at the wheel might have the same effect.
Divided attention raises the threshold of sensitivity to change. Period.
quote:MY point here is SOME of you here exhibit behavior that suggests you have left the TWI cult and joined another cult. The problem, from MY pov is that you spout "THEY the eternally EVIL ones decieved ME, yet you willingly sign on the dotted line and support the new cult willingly with all of the same vim and vigor of the old.
Here's an idea. Read the BIBLE. While you read your cult books I was searching the sciptures because in them I think I will find eternal LIFE. Life under control, ANY control is DEATH.
This is why GOD gave us FREEDOM of will; because to be controlled by ANYTHING, Even God almighty Himself is DEATH, in part. Why do YOU think the DEVIL created cults? To control God's very elect is the ULTIMATE slap in God's face concerning His beloved sons of God.
I WILL EXHAULT MY THRONE ABOVE THE STAR, GOD!
Just how in the HELL do you think Lucifer does THAT?
Please. Spare me the veiled insults.
HCM,
Please explain why this is not a "package statement." Or if it is, why do you get to make it, but others don't? What "cult" have I joined, do you imagine? What makes you think I have read cult books exclusively, or that you know what else I've read?
You know, when you say, "Here's an idea, Read the BIBLE," I think back to the good old days of TWI and I want to say, "Here's an idea for YOU, bucko, take your bible and stick it where the sun don't shine..." It must be the love I'm feelin' right about then. Way Love. Don't ever tell me to read the bible, particularly not in that manner, fashion or tone. Okay? If you do, you'll be tapping into several years of, well, it isn't love, stuff which mostly just sleeps with the past. Call them unpleasant experiences.
I shouldn't fault you for using scripture like it was a club, made to swing in the face of others with a mighty, righteous indignation. "You can't go beyond what you're taught" (just kidding) -- or maybe old habits die hard. Anyway...
You stated: "...MY pov is that you spout 'THEY the eternally EVIL ones decieved ME, yet you willingly sign on the dotted line and support the new cult willingly with all of the same vim and vigor of the old..."
I'm not sure where you're getting this. It seems exaggerated for effect, but beyond any reasonable comparison.
You asked me if I read. Yes, I do. I read your quotation, as a "pov," but I have to wonder where your pov (means point of view, folks) is coming from.
Beyond that, I'm sorry if you took anything I wrote to be a "veiled insult." I guess my diplomatic skills are lacking, but my purpose was to spare you the perception of an insult where none was intended. You seem hell-bent on finding it there anyway. If I was insulting you, you would know it.
I really don't fault people who fail to see the influence of a cult in their lives, because by its nature, we all fail to see it in some part. Like the parable of the blind men and the elephant, you may describe the trunk while I describe the leg, because the limitations of our experience make us specialists on our own lives first. I won't be offended if your description of a "trunk" does not agree with my experience of a "leg." I think it's more important, if we're to understand the nature of the beast, to discover how the two parts connect.
--
By the way, HCW, the reason I complimented you was because I believe the things you've written about yourself. I see no need to "earn" some privilege first, before acknowledging your accomplishments. Do you? Your struggle to heal, your involvement with your church, your love for your kids (implicit, but obvious), are enough to admire. I can see how that would .... you off though. (Not really.)
HCW, am I perceiving that you feel that somehow the accident was somehow your fault also?
You know, it wasn't. He waited for you to be last. You agreed. If you hadn't then you would have been in the back of the pick up and someone else would have been in the cab and he would have been giving that other person his eval. So you see? It probably would have happened anyways.
>>>>>>>>>>>From Satori>>>>>>>>Some here may be relatively new to this site, and therefore this idea. There are some recommended books on the this topic. Reading one or two, one may be in a better position to judge the circumstances of the LEAD 104 incident from a more critical, if at first counter-intuitive, perspective. Some of us are getting our first, close look, but you may need to step back a bit more than you have yet.
You've come a long way since your days in TWI, and you've obviously led a commendable life since, but some of the things you've written suggest to me that you haven't sorted through some of the TWI baggage we all took away with us.
Hopefully lurkers, visitors and newcomers to Greasespot will find the time and inclination to review and reflect upon the resources here - the experiences of others, and recommended books on the topic of cult behavior, and then draw their own best conclusions.>>>>>>>>>>
HCW, I don't think satori was suggesting anything personal to you. Its only what he perceives from you. I don't think it was meant as an insult...only to help. I sometimes get that feeling to from you, but then I'm still working on some issues myself...I think most of us here are.
What I got from this post about the reading of the books was directed to the new people coming to this site.
Sometimes, when we are sensitive to some areas its easy to take things a little personal. I do it myself.
I don't think anyone is trying to get you upset, howard....I for one and I know a lot of others admire you for speaking up here.
From what I can see from your posts that you are a good man.
I think I like the sound of your church. What kind of church is it?
quote:The driver was doing two things at once while behind the wheel, and solely responsible for twenty some lives. Had his attention been a little less divided, he might have begun to notice changing conditions a few seconds earlier. Those seconds, at "highway speeds," (50 mph = 73 feet/second) could have made all the difference.
AFTER any accident, one can look back and make a statement as to what could have been done to make all the difference.
It is easy to point a finger at what Kevin was doing with the evaluation form and say "...if you wouldn't have done that..."
My point was this; The WRECK was an accident. An unintentional act. Unfortunately millions are injured and killed on our US highways. each and every day someone is doing something they should not be doing wile driving and an accident insues.
I was involed with an accident one when a car proceeded to run a redlight at the precise time I was legally, un-distracted, completely unemcumbered in any way, proceeding through the green light.
Had I proceeded one second later I could have stopped my vehicle and not had it totaled and myself injured. Had I proceeded a fraction of a second earlier (traveling aproximately 40 feet/second) the other car, rather than hitting mime at the front tip, would have hit me broadside on the driverside door & I might have been killed. The impact was sufficient to bend my car, it would have certainly crushed the door had it hit there.
How many times, how many ways have I said, it just wasn't smart to hold the paper like that?
What I see is how when it is a TWI official who did something that resulted in others getting hurt. The level of criticism from SOME comes down like a load of bricks.
People examine it it to the N'th degree with a completely unbending HE was WRONG perspective.
I NEVER SAID HE WAS RIGHT TO DO THAT. I JUST SAID THAT THE WRECK WAS AN ACCIDENT. The single contributing factor to the CRASH was where we were in relation to the ditch. Other factors realte to putting us in proximity to the ditch.
It is a phallacy of logic in terms of maturity to expect a 20-something year old person to be MORE responsible that one would expect of a person that age.
Young people do stupid things, period. The CRASH had more to do with youthful immaturity than any cult retoric. Regardless of how valid the cult retoric may be.
You simply cannot connect the crash to VPW/LCM or anything that was wrong w/TWI. Of course there were contributing factor that led up to us sitting in the truck and Kevin putting that form over the steering wheel.
It wasn't "mind control" it was stupid kid stuff.
Yeah I felt (past tense) kinda responsible. THAT is a natural psychological reaction to witnessing trauma. "If ONLY I had snatched the thing from his hands! SCREW my evaluation You're endangering LIVES buddy!"
I COULD have done that. In my OWN trauma my mind ran at least a thousand scenarios where I would have taken some action which COULD have prevented the crash.
The action I CHOSE contributed to the crash only insomuch that it didn't SPECIFICALLY prevent it.
We both knew better. We didn't DO better.
Our beloved friends AND KEVIN and I suffer more from what we DIDN'T do than from what we did do. For had we DONE pretty much ANYTHING different than what we BOTH did...the approximately 73 feet/second may have put us about 100 feet prior to or after the ditch.
The wind was a constant. The trailer, its weight and the towing capacity of the truck - all constants. Our speed was the variable that put us at the location of the ditch.
Had we even left a second or two earlier or later. Good GOD there are millions of alternative scenarios.
I don't BLAME Kevin for the crash any more than I BLAME my children when they spill their juice. His actions that day regarding whatever level of distraction to his driving are no different to me than whatever causes my kids to spill stuff or drop things they are carrying. The contributing factor is the same. A natural lack of maturity.
Thank you for sharing your story about what happened to Rochelle.
I was on HQ staff when the accident occurred and was at lunch when it was announced. I can't remember if the announcer was LCM or Micael F@rt. There was mention of a lot of injuries, but I got the impression from the announcement that they were mostly minor(!!!).
I remember some mention of the physical cause being wind, and concern that the incident would cast TWI in an unfavorable light-- not so much concern for the injured. It was also brought up that this "load" of LEAD folks were a bunch of spiritual weaklings being tested, and for that reason some blame for the incident seemed to be applied to the people involved, and the leadership of the LEAD program in general. So HCW, I can bear witness to what you were told.
I do remember my own reaction of being ....ed off that TWI would do something so obviously stupid as to load all those people up in the back of a truck. I felt TWI and their policies were more to blame than anyone else, and their repeated lack of concern for the safety of the individual. In the 6th corps, one of our women had been abducted during hitch hiking. She and her partner were riding in a semi, and her partner asked for a potty stop. He got out to go to the bathroom, and the driver drove off with the woman. Don't know any more of the details, but the woman was returned. It seems to me that TWI never got the message how dangerous this practice is, even after Ken Barden was killed on the highway, they continued their unsafe practices, with full knowlege of the dangers. Negligience, it seems to me.
As far as the accident itself, in the world we live in, yes, the driver would have shouldered the blame. He had been distracted by trying to carry on an interview and read while driving down the road. Plain and simple.
However, the ultimate responsibility for the accident should rest solely upon the shoulders of the board of trustees and those people who made the decisions requiring the driver to meet an impossible deadline and those who made the decisions on how to transport those people. It is TWI and their representing officers who made those decisions, applied undue pressures, forced unsafe practices, and neglected to follow through with appropriate medical and psychological care, who are at the ROOT cause of this calamity, and are ULTIMATELY responsible for the injuries, and the eventual related death of Rochelle.
TWI, despite their protests and insistence to the contrary, has NEVER been concerned with the well-being of the individual, only their own backside.
I was a part of the post-Sommerville, pre-LEAD "camping" experience. During the experience, our group was woken up in the middle of the night (Don't know what time it really was because we were not allowed to have a timepiece on the trip) and made to break camp, and hike out silently in the darkness, without the use of flashlights.
During this hike in the pitch dark in the Kansas flint hills, we were led along the edge of a kind of cliff. The ground beneath me gave way, and I ended up falling and sliding down a 25-30 foot precipice and banging my spine along the rocks. When I got up and tried to walk, I soon discovered I had no feeling in the left side of my body from the hip down. I had to finish the hike in that condition-- another 10 miles or so. I told the hike leader, who at least insisted I walk with him.
As soon as I got back to campus, I discovered I was slated the next day to go to the Texas farm. I immediately told B@b Mir@b!o about the accident and that I needed medical attention. He told me I was going to Texas ANYWAY.
I assumed he had not correctly heard me, so I repeated the fact that I had fallen down a cliff and was numb from the waist down on the left hand side and I felt I needed immediate medical attention. He forcefully told me I would be repacking my gear to leave first thing in the morning for Texas. I couldn't f@cking believe it. I would have taken it to the Corps Coordinator, but he had been called away to another campus due to an emergency and left B@b in charge.
So, I ended up being shipped off to Texas, where the farm owner was livid that he had been sent someone who could not work in the field, and raised hell with everyone about it. I ended up having to stay there the entire week WITHOUT medical attention.
When I got back, the Corps Coordinator (Ger@ald Wrxxn) tried to blame me for it all saying I hadn't been honest about my injury and tried to hide it. I told him to call in Bob Mir@b!to and we'd just see about that. Long and short of it is, Bob got his foot chewed out for not listening to me, and it was STILL another 4 days before I got medical attention.
When I notified the Corps coordinator that the chiropractor felt I would need extensive work, he hit the roof and called the man a quack. I had to pay for my OWN medical care, and cut the appointments off because I couldn't afford them all. I still have back pain to this day from this injury, and I have intermittent numbness on the outside of my left thigh.
I sense sometimes that you are still feeling bad for what happened that day even though you say you "FELT" (past tense) bad in your earlier post.
Accident aside for a moment, what Satori tried to say I feel has some validation. I walked away from TWI with more than a TON of baggage strapped tightly to my back. And most of that baggage I thought was actually part of my true body weight. It has taken me years for unravel and unload bit by bit this excess baggage TWI heaped upon me.
After reading your posts here, I had never ONCE considered that you or Kevin were AT FAULT. Perhaps, things could have been done differently, but given the circumstances (Kevin being under alot pressure to fullfil his responsibilities as a LEAD instructor) it was probably only a matter of time before something like this happened.
But, the biggest thing I feel that could be said was at fault, was the neglect of the individual's safety. And that my friend, lies at the feet of BOT's feet.
As I read your LEAD experience as well as other LEAD experiences here, the most commom denominator is a lack of SAFETY. Either, on the rocks or on the highway, people's safety was put in jeopardy. And, TWI made sure if things did go wrong, they were the first ones to point fingers and say, "What did YOU do wrong?"
They certainly had their best interests in mind first...all else came second.
If TWI set up a program where they had to transport large numbers of people back and forth to Tinnie, then perhaps they should have purchased a bus to do so. Having some 15 people hop into a pick-up truck, un-secured by seat belts is just ludicrous in my mind.
Transporting people in the back of a pick-up truck in my country is an illegal act. Is it in yours?
And if it is, I can see why LCM and all others who would be deemed liable, layed very low.
If Kevin took the blame of that accident upon his shoulders that is insane thinking in my opinion. But, I do not blame him for that either. The whole system was set up for all fingers to point back at us ONLY.
I believe Kevin did the best he knew how, given his responsibilities, his age and the pressure he was put under to perform.
That is AWFULL Catcup, damn em. No worry about you...no concern about your well being ...simply, is it gonna cost em any thing? and will it prevent you from being usefull in manual labor....SHEESHE what a way to treat folks.
UMMMMM....makes me wonder if we just might have something here????
I'm so sorry to hear what happened to you during your "LEAD" experience. Once again, that outfit surely showed their true colours!!
Your incident reminded me of another incident that someone here on GS shared with me privately. They too were on the earlier LEAD sessions but it was in CA.
That too was a nightmare. I'm hoping this person will sometime come forward and share here.
quote:Young people do stupid things, period. The CRASH had more to do with youthful immaturity than any cult retoric. Regardless of how valid the cult retoric may be.
You simply cannot connect the crash to VPW/LCM or anything that was wrong w/TWI. Of course there were contributing factor that led up to us sitting in the truck and Kevin putting that form over the steering wheel.
It wasn't "mind control" it was stupid kid stuff.
HCW, thanks for your perspective. If anyone has reason to point fingers for this it'd be you, but you haven't.
Have you realized by now that there are some folks who will use stories such as yours and still blame twi, facts notwithstanding?
Snort ... like YOU haven`t shamelessly been using hcw`s story in this thread as a spring board into your OWN favorite rehtoric oldies?
What a hippocrit (sp?)
You have your own whole thread custom made specifically JUST for you to cast blame on the victims and mitigate and or hide twi`s evil treatment of people.....that isn`t enough?
It is easy to point a finger at what Kevin was doing with the evaluation form and say "...if you wouldn't have done that..."
"Point a finger?" This isn't about finger-pointing (blame), it's about responsibility. Since you were in TWI for quite a while after the incident, maybe you just never had the opportunity to clearly process that difference.
TWI was always about blame and condemnation coming down from the top. Anybody who was around can recall VPW's unpredictable (which meant they were "inspired") and rapacious tantrums, his ugly and spiteful recriminations against individuals, or groups, within TWI. Of course, he was at his unholy meanest toward individuals who couldn't (or wouldn't) defend themselves. That wasn't a man of God's "reproof." It was sheer sadism, torment for the pleasure of the tormentor.
Anybody who "blew it," or "screwed up," had better concoct a good defense to ward off the accusers (leaders and wannabe's) sure to rush in. Woe unto you, Jack. Martindale was relentless, and Lynn was filled to overflowing with his sarcasm and acrimony. They could go on for days. Read what Vickles had to say here because she couldn't come up with the stinkin' ten dollars using believing (magic).
"I'm sorry" was never good enough. Vic's sick pricks had to crucify you until the last drop fell and spashed on the rocks below, and then they'd stick it to you one last time - to make sure you were done. TWI leaders were intentionally cruel. They got off on the human sacrifice, as much as they could get away with. You could see it in their faces. So we learned, for self-preservation's sake, to hide behind the devil. "The devil, he did it. The Adversary attacked us. Did you see that wind? Straight from the pit." Ever read The Crucible? (I know, it's not in the bible. Spare me.)
So all I'm saying is, we need find and accept our responsibility. The driver is responsible, at fault. There is no need to take it further, no judgement, no sentence, but neither should it be denied because personal responsibility is essential to healing ourselves after emerging from the cult. For that matter, it's just essential.
That is to say, we learn to clearly see our own responsibility, and theirs.
Yes, TWI got off on the human sacrifice. I have witnessed this first hand many times.
And, "he was at his unholy meanest toward individuals who couldn't (or wouldn't) defend themselves." ...that was me.
I assumed at all costs, that I was wrong and they were right therefore never spoke up or defended myself.
The only one time I did speak up was when my corps cordinator's wife PL blew a gasket on me and started to yell at me that I wasn't a 'fireball' and that I hadn't proven to her that I deserved to be in the corps. She kept yelling at me about being this 'fireball' over and over. This, by the way was in a room full of people.
I stood there nearly reduced to rubble but I managed to say one thing when she was done..."What is a fireball?"...
She then said to me, "See what I mean!" in complete disgust and walked out of the room.
I was called into her husband's office about an hour later and he told me that his wife had told him that she didn't like the way I talked to her.
You asked the "Dragon lady" what a fireball was? I just hope you worked "fireball" in the Greek afterward.
Too funny! As if she were an expert, right? Had she been working fireballs so she could share them with the Corps? Was there a shortage? Maybe we shouldn't go there. I'm trying to remember if I ever saw any smoke rising from her. Don't think so. If so, it was probably gas, since there wasn't much heat.
Obviously, Dragon lady was an idiot, another dumbass, who could lecture everyone else all day, and all night, on Ephesians, the great mystery, the one body, members in particular, and THEN, accuse you of not being a "fireball," instead of just being yourself as God made you, and allowing you to grow and be the best YOU you could be. What's wrong with that picture? - Dragon breath had no clue.
See oldiesman, more dumbasses, everywhere you turn. She and her hubby were a virtual tag-team of dumbasses. "Dumb and Dumber."
Of course they weren't stupid in the sense of low intelligence. But their hearts-full-o'-malice blinded them to the obvious hypocrisy of enforcing their personal likes and dislikes as if they were biblical mandates. Bottom line though, they were dumbasses, just the same.
By the way, "fireball" as I understand it, has to do with kissing the leadership's foot with adequate heat and pressure to cause combustion. Apparently, you didn't.
quote:The single contributing factor to the CRASH was where we were in relation to the ditch. Other factors relate to putting us in proximity to the ditch.
This is just plain wrong. You're blaming the ditch now? He lost control of the vehicle. THAT was the single contributing factor. You seem to be saying the ditch had no right to be there because it wasn't "there" earlier. The ditch compounded the damage, but it caused nothing at all.
So all I'm saying is, we need find and accept our responsibility. The driver is responsible, at fault. There is no need to take it further, no judgement, no sentence, but neither should it be denied because personal responsibility is essential to healing ourselves after emerging from the cult. For that matter, it's just essential.
That is to say, we learn to clearly see our own responsibility, and theirs.
Howard, I agree with satori in above quote. Anything else between you is not being spoken of.
I do think you have taken responsibility for your part of an incredible event. I think Kevin should take his portion as well. For the healing that is afforded when you do put that item to bed and move forward.
Again I do enjoy your story. Sad as it may be at times.
What and where an individual places his focus. Is what I'm talking to at times here.
The simplicity, in terms of responsibility, is that the driver of a vehicle that crashes is, basically, responsible for the crash.
What I wrore about the crash CLEARLY indicated that Kevin was RESPONSIBLE for the crash, as the driver. I feel I clearly related factors contributing to the crash tha made that clear.
THEN. I said, (all things considered) I don't BLAME Kevin for the crash.
THEN rather than seeing in my words that I was actually saying, BLAME, as in point the finger; I DIDN'T and DON'T
quote: need to take it further, no judgement, no sentence,
...no, none of THAT has ever nor WILL it ever pass from ME to Kevin.
Nobody in the entire world was closer to the center of RESPONSIBILITY for that crash, nobody closer to Kevin concerning that than ME. There is a moral and ethical, "God breathed" equity provided to those who "were there" in any thing, ANYwhere where you were when whatever IT was that happened.
God called it and our US legal system recognizes it and calls it WITNESS. As a witness you not only have MORE "equity," you have the highest level authority to speak on it. More and Higher than ANYONE who was NOT a witness.
-------------
That being said; I'm talking about focus satori. Not only yours but what I see as a pattern here on GS.
Here's how I see it.
The body of my recounting "What Happened?" made it crystal clear that Kevin was in the responsible position for the crash. It seemed, however, that when I said something POSITIVE about him you bum-rushed me.
It appears to me that there are some who focus on controlling whatever positives are spoken concerning TWI. Positive words about twi principles are met with a sunami wave of contempt and the overall positive message of a post or a portion of a post is swept away in the name of, figuratively speaking,
"TWI, never was, is not now, nor will ever be good in any way shape or form."
People who recount good experiences in the midst of an admittedly BAD situation. Are MARKED as Wierwille worshippers. Their positive words are "avoided" and buried in deep in the thread as the wave of contempt washes in, crests, then washes out.
It seems that at times, in some areas, some FOCUS on making sure everyone knows GS is an ANTI twi site (and you ain't gonna do nothing to change it buddy.)
Ok. So its an anti TWI site. TWI was a bad ride and no matter how one looks at it evidence compels that it be acknowedged, in a word, BAD.
I don't have a problem with that.
What I've seen in my brief stint, so far, here at GS, is that since I have a basically positive spin on my recounting of events and say positive things about "leadership." People focus on that and question:
quote: This isn't about finger-pointing (blame), it's about responsibility. Since you were in TWI for quite a while after the incident, maybe you just never had the opportunity to clearly process that difference.
quote: but some of the things you've written suggest to me that you haven't sorted through some of the TWI baggage we all took away with us.
A shadow of hypocracy is cast upon me:
quote:Please explain why this is not a "package statement." Or if it is, why do you get to make it, but others don't? What "cult" have I joined, do you imagine? What makes you think I have read cult books exclusively, or that you know what else I've read?
Hmmm.... makes me wonder.
There are a few things that MY focus sees as 'telling' I'll try to relate them.
1. I even used the SAME word as you: BLAME.
quote: I have never, no not once; NEVER, not even for an instant even through my own guilt, pain or nightmares. NO not even once have I EVER blamed Kevin Smith for the crash that day.
You apparently felt it necessasty to clarify for me, that my statement, "Of course...he should have been MORE careful" than he was, didn't go far enough so as to indicate "responsibility."
I simply attempted to clarify that there were other contributing factors to the crash that were not whatever "EVIL" twi was up to at the time.
It seems to me that since I didn't say 'he was responsible" the way you would have, you bum-rushed me.
I see a pattern to that effect that is not limited to any one person, satori.
It seems to me that in the bum-rush you ran right by MY intent of that post, which was positive. My primary intent is to heal and help any in any way I can to heal.
Kevin Smith. In full realization of his RESPONSIBILITY for the people whom he was driving down the road, realized (we both did) he was doing something STUPID in holding the evaluation form over the steering wheel.
Kevin Smith; had not tried to read the form before we crashed. He had just picked it up, in one hand then the other. I handed it to him because he was driving.
AS he was grasping the paper with BOTH hands firmly on the steering wheel, eyes on the road. WE both went like, whoa! when the wind caused the truck to shudder and the trailer to hop...to the left so that the truck moved to the right.
In realizing he had "blown it" in terms of responsibility to be as careful as possible with the lives in the back of the truck, Kevin Smith IMMEDIATELY put the paper down.
He was not holding the paper when another gust of wind moved the truck over closer to the (in the same manner) side of the road where the wheel was on the edge of the road.
To stabilize the truck, Kevin did the same thing I was taught in an ADVANCED driving class. He steered to the right and put both wheels on the right side of the truck onto the shoulder. Once it stabilized with the left wheels on the road and the right ones OFF the road. Kevin then made a move, in the correct manner to get the truck back onto the road.
At his point I relaxed because it seemed like Kevin knew what he was doing.
The right front wheel came up, back came up, then all hell broke loose and we were fishtailing to the left.
The trailer bounced more than it normally would because of the gusting wind. It hopped and was airborne for an instant. I remember hearing the CHIRP! of it's wheels hitting the road when it landed.
The truck was heading to a perpendicular position with the front pointing to the the right and the back was heading towards the left. Had Kevin not had enough driving skill and poise and arm strength to correct a 50mph skid with at least a ton of people in the bed, while pulling a trailer loaded with about 8 or 900lbs...
the truck would have ROLLED and God only knows how many, if not ALL, of us would have been killed in the most gory way imaginable.
I paraphrased all of that when I originally posted the account of the crash. If one looks carefully, its in there, though.
"Positive words about twi principles are met with a sunami wave of contempt"
And well they should, IMHO. The entire organization was a twisted, manipulative, hurtful POS. Talk about the wonderful "good" that it did, to me, is as disingenuous as discussing the good done by "Heaven's Gate", or the "Peoples' Temple", or - if you want to get a little more extreme - the "Third Reich".
Anyone around today who was connected with those organizations probably isn't going to spend a lot of time telling about the virtues of same. (oh, it's "tsunami", BTW)
"TWI, never was, is not now, nor will ever be good in any way shape or form." Yeah, that's pretty close, I'd say.
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HCW
As far as standing up, talking back. People did that a lot, especially after POP. People got "mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!" Of my personal pet peeves was the whole money thing. T
HAPe4me
I never participated in it, but I always thought it sounded like "Outward Bound", which has been measurably more successful in achieving it's participant's goals.
So_crates
Yes, but then there's the counter teaching: If you obey the MOG, God will bless you. So what do you do when the MOG orders you to act recklessly? Rhetorical question. SoCrates
J0nny Ling0
Excathedra,
Even though I don't really know you, and I have pi$$ed you off to a great degree, I am getting the picture that you were really really abused by VPW, and now that I am beginning to see it, I am really really sorry that you went through all of that. Please help me "un-ring that bell" by forgiving me for being an un-sensitive a$$. I really mean it. For I see that when issues like the one with my Corps sister comes up, the one that was raped on LEAD Highway, I see your heart in the matter more and more, and my heart goes out to you all the more. I am sorry, and I love you mucho en Christo...
And Ex10, I don't expect you to reveal the name of that gal, unless you want to in the private topics. I could have sworn that it happened during our first year in that LCM made the "announcement" about the situation while he was our in rez coordinator. but obviously my memory is foggy, and you are probably right...
At any rate, that detail doesn't really matter, because no matter what year it was, our sweet sistah was still raped and hurt and then was cast out, and that was really terrible. Do you know any more details? I have always wondered about that situation...
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satori001
The driver was doing two things at once while behind the wheel, and solely responsible for twenty some lives. Had his attention been a little less divided, he might have begun to notice changing conditions a few seconds earlier. Those seconds, at "highway speeds," (50 mph = 73 feet/second) could have made all the difference.
Anybody who drives while talking on a cell phone knows their attention level is diminished in the process, and their driving ability is compromised. Sorry, if you think you're different, it's a little like saying you're fine driving drunk. Research indicates otherwise. It's not such a stretch to suggest reading an evaluation form at the wheel might have the same effect.
Divided attention raises the threshold of sensitivity to change. Period.
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satori001
HCM,
Please explain why this is not a "package statement." Or if it is, why do you get to make it, but others don't? What "cult" have I joined, do you imagine? What makes you think I have read cult books exclusively, or that you know what else I've read?
You know, when you say, "Here's an idea, Read the BIBLE," I think back to the good old days of TWI and I want to say, "Here's an idea for YOU, bucko, take your bible and stick it where the sun don't shine..." It must be the love I'm feelin' right about then. Way Love. Don't ever tell me to read the bible, particularly not in that manner, fashion or tone. Okay? If you do, you'll be tapping into several years of, well, it isn't love, stuff which mostly just sleeps with the past. Call them unpleasant experiences.
I shouldn't fault you for using scripture like it was a club, made to swing in the face of others with a mighty, righteous indignation. "You can't go beyond what you're taught" (just kidding) -- or maybe old habits die hard. Anyway...
You stated: "...MY pov is that you spout 'THEY the eternally EVIL ones decieved ME, yet you willingly sign on the dotted line and support the new cult willingly with all of the same vim and vigor of the old..."
I'm not sure where you're getting this. It seems exaggerated for effect, but beyond any reasonable comparison.
You asked me if I read. Yes, I do. I read your quotation, as a "pov," but I have to wonder where your pov (means point of view, folks) is coming from.
Beyond that, I'm sorry if you took anything I wrote to be a "veiled insult." I guess my diplomatic skills are lacking, but my purpose was to spare you the perception of an insult where none was intended. You seem hell-bent on finding it there anyway. If I was insulting you, you would know it.
I really don't fault people who fail to see the influence of a cult in their lives, because by its nature, we all fail to see it in some part. Like the parable of the blind men and the elephant, you may describe the trunk while I describe the leg, because the limitations of our experience make us specialists on our own lives first. I won't be offended if your description of a "trunk" does not agree with my experience of a "leg." I think it's more important, if we're to understand the nature of the beast, to discover how the two parts connect.
--
By the way, HCW, the reason I complimented you was because I believe the things you've written about yourself. I see no need to "earn" some privilege first, before acknowledging your accomplishments. Do you? Your struggle to heal, your involvement with your church, your love for your kids (implicit, but obvious), are enough to admire. I can see how that would .... you off though. (Not really.)
PS Had a nice family day. Hope you did the same.
-edited for grammar-
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vickles
HCW, am I perceiving that you feel that somehow the accident was somehow your fault also?
You know, it wasn't. He waited for you to be last. You agreed. If you hadn't then you would have been in the back of the pick up and someone else would have been in the cab and he would have been giving that other person his eval. So you see? It probably would have happened anyways.
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vickles
>>>>>>>>>>>From Satori>>>>>>>>Some here may be relatively new to this site, and therefore this idea. There are some recommended books on the this topic. Reading one or two, one may be in a better position to judge the circumstances of the LEAD 104 incident from a more critical, if at first counter-intuitive, perspective. Some of us are getting our first, close look, but you may need to step back a bit more than you have yet.
You've come a long way since your days in TWI, and you've obviously led a commendable life since, but some of the things you've written suggest to me that you haven't sorted through some of the TWI baggage we all took away with us.
Hopefully lurkers, visitors and newcomers to Greasespot will find the time and inclination to review and reflect upon the resources here - the experiences of others, and recommended books on the topic of cult behavior, and then draw their own best conclusions.>>>>>>>>>>
HCW, I don't think satori was suggesting anything personal to you. Its only what he perceives from you. I don't think it was meant as an insult...only to help. I sometimes get that feeling to from you, but then I'm still working on some issues myself...I think most of us here are.
What I got from this post about the reading of the books was directed to the new people coming to this site.
Sometimes, when we are sensitive to some areas its easy to take things a little personal. I do it myself.
I don't think anyone is trying to get you upset, howard....I for one and I know a lot of others admire you for speaking up here.
From what I can see from your posts that you are a good man.
I think I like the sound of your church. What kind of church is it?
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HCW
AFTER any accident, one can look back and make a statement as to what could have been done to make all the difference.
It is easy to point a finger at what Kevin was doing with the evaluation form and say "...if you wouldn't have done that..."
My point was this; The WRECK was an accident. An unintentional act. Unfortunately millions are injured and killed on our US highways. each and every day someone is doing something they should not be doing wile driving and an accident insues.
I was involed with an accident one when a car proceeded to run a redlight at the precise time I was legally, un-distracted, completely unemcumbered in any way, proceeding through the green light.
Had I proceeded one second later I could have stopped my vehicle and not had it totaled and myself injured. Had I proceeded a fraction of a second earlier (traveling aproximately 40 feet/second) the other car, rather than hitting mime at the front tip, would have hit me broadside on the driverside door & I might have been killed. The impact was sufficient to bend my car, it would have certainly crushed the door had it hit there.
How many times, how many ways have I said, it just wasn't smart to hold the paper like that?
What I see is how when it is a TWI official who did something that resulted in others getting hurt. The level of criticism from SOME comes down like a load of bricks.
People examine it it to the N'th degree with a completely unbending HE was WRONG perspective.
I NEVER SAID HE WAS RIGHT TO DO THAT. I JUST SAID THAT THE WRECK WAS AN ACCIDENT. The single contributing factor to the CRASH was where we were in relation to the ditch. Other factors realte to putting us in proximity to the ditch.
It is a phallacy of logic in terms of maturity to expect a 20-something year old person to be MORE responsible that one would expect of a person that age.
Young people do stupid things, period. The CRASH had more to do with youthful immaturity than any cult retoric. Regardless of how valid the cult retoric may be.
You simply cannot connect the crash to VPW/LCM or anything that was wrong w/TWI. Of course there were contributing factor that led up to us sitting in the truck and Kevin putting that form over the steering wheel.
It wasn't "mind control" it was stupid kid stuff.
Yeah I felt (past tense) kinda responsible. THAT is a natural psychological reaction to witnessing trauma. "If ONLY I had snatched the thing from his hands! SCREW my evaluation You're endangering LIVES buddy!"
I COULD have done that. In my OWN trauma my mind ran at least a thousand scenarios where I would have taken some action which COULD have prevented the crash.
The action I CHOSE contributed to the crash only insomuch that it didn't SPECIFICALLY prevent it.
We both knew better. We didn't DO better.
Our beloved friends AND KEVIN and I suffer more from what we DIDN'T do than from what we did do. For had we DONE pretty much ANYTHING different than what we BOTH did...the approximately 73 feet/second may have put us about 100 feet prior to or after the ditch.
The wind was a constant. The trailer, its weight and the towing capacity of the truck - all constants. Our speed was the variable that put us at the location of the ditch.
Had we even left a second or two earlier or later. Good GOD there are millions of alternative scenarios.
I don't BLAME Kevin for the crash any more than I BLAME my children when they spill their juice. His actions that day regarding whatever level of distraction to his driving are no different to me than whatever causes my kids to spill stuff or drop things they are carrying. The contributing factor is the same. A natural lack of maturity.
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Catcup
Thank you for sharing your story about what happened to Rochelle.
I was on HQ staff when the accident occurred and was at lunch when it was announced. I can't remember if the announcer was LCM or Micael F@rt. There was mention of a lot of injuries, but I got the impression from the announcement that they were mostly minor(!!!).
I remember some mention of the physical cause being wind, and concern that the incident would cast TWI in an unfavorable light-- not so much concern for the injured. It was also brought up that this "load" of LEAD folks were a bunch of spiritual weaklings being tested, and for that reason some blame for the incident seemed to be applied to the people involved, and the leadership of the LEAD program in general. So HCW, I can bear witness to what you were told.
I do remember my own reaction of being ....ed off that TWI would do something so obviously stupid as to load all those people up in the back of a truck. I felt TWI and their policies were more to blame than anyone else, and their repeated lack of concern for the safety of the individual. In the 6th corps, one of our women had been abducted during hitch hiking. She and her partner were riding in a semi, and her partner asked for a potty stop. He got out to go to the bathroom, and the driver drove off with the woman. Don't know any more of the details, but the woman was returned. It seems to me that TWI never got the message how dangerous this practice is, even after Ken Barden was killed on the highway, they continued their unsafe practices, with full knowlege of the dangers. Negligience, it seems to me.
As far as the accident itself, in the world we live in, yes, the driver would have shouldered the blame. He had been distracted by trying to carry on an interview and read while driving down the road. Plain and simple.
However, the ultimate responsibility for the accident should rest solely upon the shoulders of the board of trustees and those people who made the decisions requiring the driver to meet an impossible deadline and those who made the decisions on how to transport those people. It is TWI and their representing officers who made those decisions, applied undue pressures, forced unsafe practices, and neglected to follow through with appropriate medical and psychological care, who are at the ROOT cause of this calamity, and are ULTIMATELY responsible for the injuries, and the eventual related death of Rochelle.
TWI, despite their protests and insistence to the contrary, has NEVER been concerned with the well-being of the individual, only their own backside.
I was a part of the post-Sommerville, pre-LEAD "camping" experience. During the experience, our group was woken up in the middle of the night (Don't know what time it really was because we were not allowed to have a timepiece on the trip) and made to break camp, and hike out silently in the darkness, without the use of flashlights.
During this hike in the pitch dark in the Kansas flint hills, we were led along the edge of a kind of cliff. The ground beneath me gave way, and I ended up falling and sliding down a 25-30 foot precipice and banging my spine along the rocks. When I got up and tried to walk, I soon discovered I had no feeling in the left side of my body from the hip down. I had to finish the hike in that condition-- another 10 miles or so. I told the hike leader, who at least insisted I walk with him.
As soon as I got back to campus, I discovered I was slated the next day to go to the Texas farm. I immediately told B@b Mir@b!o about the accident and that I needed medical attention. He told me I was going to Texas ANYWAY.
I assumed he had not correctly heard me, so I repeated the fact that I had fallen down a cliff and was numb from the waist down on the left hand side and I felt I needed immediate medical attention. He forcefully told me I would be repacking my gear to leave first thing in the morning for Texas. I couldn't f@cking believe it. I would have taken it to the Corps Coordinator, but he had been called away to another campus due to an emergency and left B@b in charge.
So, I ended up being shipped off to Texas, where the farm owner was livid that he had been sent someone who could not work in the field, and raised hell with everyone about it. I ended up having to stay there the entire week WITHOUT medical attention.
When I got back, the Corps Coordinator (Ger@ald Wrxxn) tried to blame me for it all saying I hadn't been honest about my injury and tried to hide it. I told him to call in Bob Mir@b!to and we'd just see about that. Long and short of it is, Bob got his foot chewed out for not listening to me, and it was STILL another 4 days before I got medical attention.
When I notified the Corps coordinator that the chiropractor felt I would need extensive work, he hit the roof and called the man a quack. I had to pay for my OWN medical care, and cut the appointments off because I couldn't afford them all. I still have back pain to this day from this injury, and I have intermittent numbness on the outside of my left thigh.
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A la prochaine
HCW,
I sense sometimes that you are still feeling bad for what happened that day even though you say you "FELT" (past tense) bad in your earlier post.
Accident aside for a moment, what Satori tried to say I feel has some validation. I walked away from TWI with more than a TON of baggage strapped tightly to my back. And most of that baggage I thought was actually part of my true body weight. It has taken me years for unravel and unload bit by bit this excess baggage TWI heaped upon me.
After reading your posts here, I had never ONCE considered that you or Kevin were AT FAULT. Perhaps, things could have been done differently, but given the circumstances (Kevin being under alot pressure to fullfil his responsibilities as a LEAD instructor) it was probably only a matter of time before something like this happened.
But, the biggest thing I feel that could be said was at fault, was the neglect of the individual's safety. And that my friend, lies at the feet of BOT's feet.
As I read your LEAD experience as well as other LEAD experiences here, the most commom denominator is a lack of SAFETY. Either, on the rocks or on the highway, people's safety was put in jeopardy. And, TWI made sure if things did go wrong, they were the first ones to point fingers and say, "What did YOU do wrong?"
They certainly had their best interests in mind first...all else came second.
If TWI set up a program where they had to transport large numbers of people back and forth to Tinnie, then perhaps they should have purchased a bus to do so. Having some 15 people hop into a pick-up truck, un-secured by seat belts is just ludicrous in my mind.
Transporting people in the back of a pick-up truck in my country is an illegal act. Is it in yours?
And if it is, I can see why LCM and all others who would be deemed liable, layed very low.
If Kevin took the blame of that accident upon his shoulders that is insane thinking in my opinion. But, I do not blame him for that either. The whole system was set up for all fingers to point back at us ONLY.
I believe Kevin did the best he knew how, given his responsibilities, his age and the pressure he was put under to perform.
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rascal
That is AWFULL Catcup, damn em. No worry about you...no concern about your well being ...simply, is it gonna cost em any thing? and will it prevent you from being usefull in manual labor....SHEESHE what a way to treat folks.
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A la prochaine
Catcup,
I only saw your post AFTER I had posted mine.
Funny how we said very similar things.
UMMMMM....makes me wonder if we just might have something here????
I'm so sorry to hear what happened to you during your "LEAD" experience. Once again, that outfit surely showed their true colours!!
Your incident reminded me of another incident that someone here on GS shared with me privately. They too were on the earlier LEAD sessions but it was in CA.
That too was a nightmare. I'm hoping this person will sometime come forward and share here.
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oldiesman
Have you realized by now that there are some folks who will use stories such as yours and still blame twi, facts notwithstanding?
But there is learning even in false accusations.
Thanks for sharing.
:)-->
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rascal
Snort ... like YOU haven`t shamelessly been using hcw`s story in this thread as a spring board into your OWN favorite rehtoric oldies?
What a hippocrit (sp?)
You have your own whole thread custom made specifically JUST for you to cast blame on the victims and mitigate and or hide twi`s evil treatment of people.....that isn`t enough?
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A la prochaine
OM,
wake up and smell the freghen coffee why don't you?
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satori001
"Point a finger?" This isn't about finger-pointing (blame), it's about responsibility. Since you were in TWI for quite a while after the incident, maybe you just never had the opportunity to clearly process that difference.
TWI was always about blame and condemnation coming down from the top. Anybody who was around can recall VPW's unpredictable (which meant they were "inspired") and rapacious tantrums, his ugly and spiteful recriminations against individuals, or groups, within TWI. Of course, he was at his unholy meanest toward individuals who couldn't (or wouldn't) defend themselves. That wasn't a man of God's "reproof." It was sheer sadism, torment for the pleasure of the tormentor.
Anybody who "blew it," or "screwed up," had better concoct a good defense to ward off the accusers (leaders and wannabe's) sure to rush in. Woe unto you, Jack. Martindale was relentless, and Lynn was filled to overflowing with his sarcasm and acrimony. They could go on for days. Read what Vickles had to say here because she couldn't come up with the stinkin' ten dollars using believing (magic).
"I'm sorry" was never good enough. Vic's sick pricks had to crucify you until the last drop fell and spashed on the rocks below, and then they'd stick it to you one last time - to make sure you were done. TWI leaders were intentionally cruel. They got off on the human sacrifice, as much as they could get away with. You could see it in their faces. So we learned, for self-preservation's sake, to hide behind the devil. "The devil, he did it. The Adversary attacked us. Did you see that wind? Straight from the pit." Ever read The Crucible? (I know, it's not in the bible. Spare me.)
So all I'm saying is, we need find and accept our responsibility. The driver is responsible, at fault. There is no need to take it further, no judgement, no sentence, but neither should it be denied because personal responsibility is essential to healing ourselves after emerging from the cult. For that matter, it's just essential.
That is to say, we learn to clearly see our own responsibility, and theirs.
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A la prochaine
Satori,
Wheeww...you said a mouthful there.
Yes, TWI got off on the human sacrifice. I have witnessed this first hand many times.
And, "he was at his unholy meanest toward individuals who couldn't (or wouldn't) defend themselves." ...that was me.
I assumed at all costs, that I was wrong and they were right therefore never spoke up or defended myself.
The only one time I did speak up was when my corps cordinator's wife PL blew a gasket on me and started to yell at me that I wasn't a 'fireball' and that I hadn't proven to her that I deserved to be in the corps. She kept yelling at me about being this 'fireball' over and over. This, by the way was in a room full of people.
I stood there nearly reduced to rubble but I managed to say one thing when she was done..."What is a fireball?"...
She then said to me, "See what I mean!" in complete disgust and walked out of the room.
I was called into her husband's office about an hour later and he told me that his wife had told him that she didn't like the way I talked to her.
Soon after that, I was asked to leave the corps.
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satori001
You asked the "Dragon lady" what a fireball was? I just hope you worked "fireball" in the Greek afterward.
Too funny! As if she were an expert, right? Had she been working fireballs so she could share them with the Corps? Was there a shortage? Maybe we shouldn't go there. I'm trying to remember if I ever saw any smoke rising from her. Don't think so. If so, it was probably gas, since there wasn't much heat.
Obviously, Dragon lady was an idiot, another dumbass, who could lecture everyone else all day, and all night, on Ephesians, the great mystery, the one body, members in particular, and THEN, accuse you of not being a "fireball," instead of just being yourself as God made you, and allowing you to grow and be the best YOU you could be. What's wrong with that picture? - Dragon breath had no clue.
See oldiesman, more dumbasses, everywhere you turn. She and her hubby were a virtual tag-team of dumbasses. "Dumb and Dumber."
Of course they weren't stupid in the sense of low intelligence. But their hearts-full-o'-malice blinded them to the obvious hypocrisy of enforcing their personal likes and dislikes as if they were biblical mandates. Bottom line though, they were dumbasses, just the same.
By the way, "fireball" as I understand it, has to do with kissing the leadership's foot with adequate heat and pressure to cause combustion. Apparently, you didn't.
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satori001
This is just plain wrong. You're blaming the ditch now? He lost control of the vehicle. THAT was the single contributing factor. You seem to be saying the ditch had no right to be there because it wasn't "there" earlier. The ditch compounded the damage, but it caused nothing at all.
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Belle
So, after this crash, what changes did TWI make?
How many people had to be hurt, killed and maimed before they cancelled the hitchhiking part of training?
How many people have to be seriously wounded before they change LEAD? I know they still do it and I know it's still just as dangerous.
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houseisarockin
Howard a quote for my reply to you please.
Howard, I agree with satori in above quote. Anything else between you is not being spoken of.
I do think you have taken responsibility for your part of an incredible event. I think Kevin should take his portion as well. For the healing that is afforded when you do put that item to bed and move forward.
Again I do enjoy your story. Sad as it may be at times.
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George Aar
HCM,
O.K., I've tried to stay uninvolved on this thread since I played the smarta$$ with you, but this statement just rubs me all kinda wrong:
"You simply cannot connect the crash to VPW/LCM or anything that was wrong w/TWI."
What?(!) How about if they had simply provided a proper vehicle for transporting the participants in their farking program?
A simple schoolbus, or possibly a four-wheel-drive bus, would have been all that was necessary.
Instead they chose to have the participants transported like bales of hay.
I think that alone says more about what they really thought of their people than any tripe they served up at SNS or a lunchtime "sharing".
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outandabout
"What's a fireball?" ha ha ha ha
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HCW
It's about focus.
What and where an individual places his focus. Is what I'm talking to at times here.
The simplicity, in terms of responsibility, is that the driver of a vehicle that crashes is, basically, responsible for the crash.
What I wrore about the crash CLEARLY indicated that Kevin was RESPONSIBLE for the crash, as the driver. I feel I clearly related factors contributing to the crash tha made that clear.
THEN. I said, (all things considered) I don't BLAME Kevin for the crash.
THEN rather than seeing in my words that I was actually saying, BLAME, as in point the finger; I DIDN'T and DON'T
...no, none of THAT has ever nor WILL it ever pass from ME to Kevin.
Nobody in the entire world was closer to the center of RESPONSIBILITY for that crash, nobody closer to Kevin concerning that than ME. There is a moral and ethical, "God breathed" equity provided to those who "were there" in any thing, ANYwhere where you were when whatever IT was that happened.
God called it and our US legal system recognizes it and calls it WITNESS. As a witness you not only have MORE "equity," you have the highest level authority to speak on it. More and Higher than ANYONE who was NOT a witness.
-------------
That being said; I'm talking about focus satori. Not only yours but what I see as a pattern here on GS.
Here's how I see it.
The body of my recounting "What Happened?" made it crystal clear that Kevin was in the responsible position for the crash. It seemed, however, that when I said something POSITIVE about him you bum-rushed me.
It appears to me that there are some who focus on controlling whatever positives are spoken concerning TWI. Positive words about twi principles are met with a sunami wave of contempt and the overall positive message of a post or a portion of a post is swept away in the name of, figuratively speaking,
"TWI, never was, is not now, nor will ever be good in any way shape or form."
People who recount good experiences in the midst of an admittedly BAD situation. Are MARKED as Wierwille worshippers. Their positive words are "avoided" and buried in deep in the thread as the wave of contempt washes in, crests, then washes out.
It seems that at times, in some areas, some FOCUS on making sure everyone knows GS is an ANTI twi site (and you ain't gonna do nothing to change it buddy.)
Ok. So its an anti TWI site. TWI was a bad ride and no matter how one looks at it evidence compels that it be acknowedged, in a word, BAD.
I don't have a problem with that.
What I've seen in my brief stint, so far, here at GS, is that since I have a basically positive spin on my recounting of events and say positive things about "leadership." People focus on that and question:
A shadow of hypocracy is cast upon me:
Hmmm.... makes me wonder.
There are a few things that MY focus sees as 'telling' I'll try to relate them.
1. I even used the SAME word as you: BLAME.
You apparently felt it necessasty to clarify for me, that my statement, "Of course...he should have been MORE careful" than he was, didn't go far enough so as to indicate "responsibility."
I simply attempted to clarify that there were other contributing factors to the crash that were not whatever "EVIL" twi was up to at the time.
It seems to me that since I didn't say 'he was responsible" the way you would have, you bum-rushed me.
I see a pattern to that effect that is not limited to any one person, satori.
It seems to me that in the bum-rush you ran right by MY intent of that post, which was positive. My primary intent is to heal and help any in any way I can to heal.
Kevin Smith. In full realization of his RESPONSIBILITY for the people whom he was driving down the road, realized (we both did) he was doing something STUPID in holding the evaluation form over the steering wheel.
Kevin Smith; had not tried to read the form before we crashed. He had just picked it up, in one hand then the other. I handed it to him because he was driving.
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HCW
The wind gust hit the truck
AS he was grasping the paper with BOTH hands firmly on the steering wheel, eyes on the road. WE both went like, whoa! when the wind caused the truck to shudder and the trailer to hop...to the left so that the truck moved to the right.
In realizing he had "blown it" in terms of responsibility to be as careful as possible with the lives in the back of the truck, Kevin Smith IMMEDIATELY put the paper down.
He was not holding the paper when another gust of wind moved the truck over closer to the (in the same manner) side of the road where the wheel was on the edge of the road.
To stabilize the truck, Kevin did the same thing I was taught in an ADVANCED driving class. He steered to the right and put both wheels on the right side of the truck onto the shoulder. Once it stabilized with the left wheels on the road and the right ones OFF the road. Kevin then made a move, in the correct manner to get the truck back onto the road.
At his point I relaxed because it seemed like Kevin knew what he was doing.
The right front wheel came up, back came up, then all hell broke loose and we were fishtailing to the left.
The trailer bounced more than it normally would because of the gusting wind. It hopped and was airborne for an instant. I remember hearing the CHIRP! of it's wheels hitting the road when it landed.
The truck was heading to a perpendicular position with the front pointing to the the right and the back was heading towards the left. Had Kevin not had enough driving skill and poise and arm strength to correct a 50mph skid with at least a ton of people in the bed, while pulling a trailer loaded with about 8 or 900lbs...
the truck would have ROLLED and God only knows how many, if not ALL, of us would have been killed in the most gory way imaginable.
I paraphrased all of that when I originally posted the account of the crash. If one looks carefully, its in there, though.
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George Aar
HCW,
"Positive words about twi principles are met with a sunami wave of contempt"
And well they should, IMHO. The entire organization was a twisted, manipulative, hurtful POS. Talk about the wonderful "good" that it did, to me, is as disingenuous as discussing the good done by "Heaven's Gate", or the "Peoples' Temple", or - if you want to get a little more extreme - the "Third Reich".
Anyone around today who was connected with those organizations probably isn't going to spend a lot of time telling about the virtues of same. (oh, it's "tsunami", BTW)
"TWI, never was, is not now, nor will ever be good in any way shape or form." Yeah, that's pretty close, I'd say.
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