quote: and therein lies the mutual thinking here. That which is most telling.
That brings up a really good point, I think.
When I first read your "mutual thinking" comment, my mind, although I know I read MUTUAL, my mind said, "Group Think" which we know is a term describing cult behavior.
I was simply "drawn away of my own thoughs, enticed by what I was thinking. In so doing I supplanted your meaning for my own even though I know I acknowledged, mutual. I even thought as I was reading it... "mutual thinking..Hmmmmm, interesting, then went off my own way.
I fully understand this, I've done the same. And I can't say I didn't confuse it some at start, I didn't go back and read me but should I have well then I would have aided in perception direction for you.
Mutual thinking is when a group, each individual, on his own, of his own accord, thinks the same thing or the way others think, on their own, of their own accord. It is the similar thinking that both creates and then binds the group, and can even define the group.
"Group Think" is a term. It describes how, usually ONE individual person thinks something then other people, each as individuals think what the ONE thinks BECAUSE the one thinks it, regardless of what the individual actually thinks. The individual CHANGES what they, on their own, of their own accord think; they change their thinking to what the ONE thinks.
Someone here posted how some come in innocent and then become a part of a group think, what term they used I cannot recall but it sounded like that to me. And I can understand what I think they were speaking of. How they change to think the same thing as if it had always been there's. That cleaving to without due cause simply because it is not your thoughts to possess. And that is dangerous. But in defense of at least some I have also seen that happen for a short spell until the person grows and moves beyond.
It is NOT the thinking that creates and binds the group, it is the ONE who creates a group of FOLLOWERS.
In mutual thinking the group all moves in a similar direction together. In Group think the group moves together. The difference is that in "Group think" the group follows the ONE, the group is NOT part of the ONE the group, as one in unison, FOLLOWS the ONE. The one becomes a defacto LEADER; simply by virtue of the fact that a group follows behind.
Mutual thinking involves an actual group, one group. "Group think is actually at least TWO "groups" the ONE (leader) and the GROUP (followers). Those two or more eventually grow into classes. The group collectively, not mutually (there's a difference) supports the leader class who become the "haves" and the follower class, the "have-nots."
They have not because give what they have to "leadership."
Group think is not limited to religious cults, although religion is among the EASIEST things in the world to "CULTify."
I think we lean more toward mutual thinking in that we have or know of abuse at various levels. Accountability for their sins, yes I'll use sins, is foreign to the twi we know and speak of. Yet familiar as their breath if being told to you regarding how you have failed to be so.
I once worked with a man who recieved a head injury in a Jeep accident in Korea. Nicest guy you'd ever want to meet, but the accident made him a manic depressive. As long as he took his meds, he was OK.
Whenever things went out of the 'norm' in TWI, right away leaders and other nazis deemed that person 'weak' of believing or even worse 'possessed'.
I had a woman in my fellowship who suffered from depression for years. She had the class many many years before, was a pretty faithful follower but nothing seemed to help.
Finally, on the phone with her one day, while she was in tears and nothing I said seemed to solice her, I realized that I was not equipped to handle this problem.
She had told me that her Dr. had recommended a month treatment at a certain hospital. I said to her...go...go now!!!
So she went. She came back a changed person. A person who was able to control her mind and no longer suffered from this painful depression. She was put on medication and was a joy to be with.
I want to tell you that I thought that was the best thing that person ever did for herself!
But the sad part was that other leaders/corps didn't see it that way. Again, 'she is weak' was the general consensus.
Rochelle, I am sure, hid all her pain...because of the same 'thinking' propounded in TWI and ESPECIALLY in the way corpse.
That's what I'm talking about! You clearly pointed out that S.
quote: had a support network of family and friends, received excellent medical care, but still had a very difficult time.
Who better to be a focal point in Rochelle's network than ME and others who were there with her. I literrally helped her hold her head together and made sure the FIRST stretcher th e leave the scene had she on it. She was my FRIEND dammit! She nearly missed having her HEAD severed. People who proported themselves to be at the EPICENTER of the wave of almight GOD's Word moving over the whole inhabited world. Took he away from those who could have been the MOST help to her.
She sat right next to me every Wednesday night at Corps night for a year, She was in my TWIG at LEAD 104 (GRRrr......)
On that week in the wilderness Kevin & Donnie Smith ^ the rest of the LEAD staff poured their BEST in to us. I will NEVER forget how indignant Donnie was when he told us everthing just short of .... THEM who say you're weak, you don't desrve to be Way Corps.
"I Don't give ONE DAMN what they say," said Donnie. "You shouldn't either. Why?
Repeat after me:
with feeling now...
"My arms and my legs are like STEEL,
My hands are like VICE GRIPS,
My fet are like hind's feet,
And my mind is like CHRIST'S
I can do ALL THINGS!!!
LEAD 104!!!!!!!
LOUDER!
LEAD 104!!!!!!!
LOUDER!!!!!
LEAD 104!!!!!!!!!!!!
I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!!!
LEAD 104!!!!!!!
Ok.
Now GROWL....
GRRRRrrrrrrrr.........
##################################
Group think isn't always a bad thing.
The New England Partiots just "GROUP THINKed" themselves to the pinnacle of professional sports.
They are on their way to going down in History as the best TEAM in professional sports.
Every person reacts differently to a traumatic event (life-threatening ones and emotional ones) depending on their makeup, past, etc. (could shed some light on why some people think a thing is no big deal while it's a very big deal to someone else, but that's a different subject).
So much is intertwined here, not to mention brain injury. What a shame people didn't get much needed appropriate care and support.
i just read your newest post, howard.... how horrible not to be able to be there for each other as friends, "family." taking away someone's right to grieve and go over the events together. i get it.
Yeah excathedra, so sad that folks not only couldn`t get the needed care and support....we were taught that there was no OTHER place better than twi for lifes answeres/acess to God/healing... We couldn`t get any help in twi, and we were told that to seek other options was *second best*.
i hear ya rascal. that's one reason i think it's so hurtful if they really have a slogan or whatever on their web site to take a class instead of seeing a shrink
quote:I will NEVER forget how indignant Donnie was when he told us everthing just short of .... THEM who say you're weak, you don't desrve to be Way Corps.
"I Don't give ONE DAMN what they say," said Donnie. "You shouldn't either. Why?
You are weak. What a thing to say to you guys. How humiliating. They didn't even have the balls to tell it to your faces.
I'm sure for Rochelle that was a huge blow to her self esteem.
If she was already battling with these issues to begin with, now it's re-inforced by those she trusts and 'thinks' she is loved by.
I know how sensitive I can be and it would be one thing for Donnie to think well of me as he did with you guys on lead 104, but to have to go back to the campus and face those who are not convinced, that would be another thing.
And regarding the accident ~ I'm sure in her mind she played the broken record...Where was my believing?
What I'm saying is that mutual thinking "happens to be" individual people who think what they think on their own.
Group think is where ONE person influences other people to think like him.
The difference is virtually indicernable when one looks at a group of people. It is only upon deeper scrutiny of the group that one can discern the difference.
HCW.....yeah, it is splitting hairs and I kinda see what you're getting at. But...when "people think what they think on their own" and EXIT twi......and later find this website and see substantiating evidence by dozens and dozens of posters.....is that "mutual thinking" or "groupthink?"
I doubt that I'm not the only one who formulated my opinions of twi before coming here.
Anyways.....it matters little to me. I've got several stories of my own to tell........someday.
Thanks HCW for posting this. Also, you DO play a mean basketball game! That I know first-hand! ;)-->
quote:Which tells me that TWIt leadersh!t was even lower than has been stated. She should have received physical therapy, reconstructive surgery, cosmetic surgery, and a lot of counseling, as well as whatever it is they do for brain injury patients.
Remember Radar, Al, etal, everytime Martinduke presided over the 13th Corps meetings our last year, he always mentioned what a BIG thing it was in his mind everyday when he woke up that he was prez of a "multi-million dollar corporation." Those words rang in my ears then and they still ring now.
I remember thinking, "if you keep bragging so much, your words are gonna come back and bite ya."
She coulda had the best medical treatment out there and twi never even would of felt it financially.
I think, and believe the psych world says so, that people who have experienced heavy trauma, especially in childhood, will have a much harder time with a trauma like an accident.
and much worse if they haven't worked through their old stuff. a lot of times they will use childhood coping techniques which are not the right ones anymore.
last night i was thinking about myself and all the people i knew in twi with unresolved heavy duty problems....
sorry for choo choo. i was actually thinking about sweet rochelle when it wrote this.
I'm not really speaking much to Oldiesman's POV or the relative merits of his position. I don't doubt what you said about satori, rascal, etc.
I've seen at least some of what you mentioned. However I thought I was seeing this:
As long as the group seemed to agree w satori everything was cool through pg5 when the focus turned back to the story & related issues.
There was some talk about individual responsibility... some more shots at Oldie, he fired back the thread flowed ping-ponging a discussion that was to a degree, MUTUALLY unwelcome.
quote: OK, discussion ends here. Sorry for the interruption.
Satori agreed in apology.
The thread rolled along and turned into a virtual "love fest" thru p9, expressing some thinking, figuring, some fun. Then I posted the following on pg 13:
quote: I have never, no not once; NEVER, not even for an instant even through my own guilt, pain or nightmares. NO not even once have I EVER blamed Kevin Smith for the crash that day.
It was an ACCIDENT.
Kevin Smith did NOT crash that truck.
He/we were NOT being reckless.
... Kevin. It was absolutely NOT your fault.
Maybe a little over the top in the drama dept, but hey this is a dramatic story.
Satori countered with:
quote:HCW,
1. He alone lost control of the vehicle
2. He was behind schedule because LEAD 104 required more time for its evaluations
Whatever you might factor in, his was the immediate responsibility, and TWI's the ultimate, for the accident - as I see it.
"As HE saw it" was fine, in terms of his stating his opinion. Then it seemed to me like he was trying to "school me" on things most obvious to me.
On pg 14 he stated more of his opinions.
I responded to satori by pointing out things he apparently missed in what I wrote. I admit. It IS a pet peeve of mine when people comment on things and formulate opinions without having read a reading, seen a movie, or when they pull things out of context when they comment.
I believe ANY opinion not based on a complete, thorough analysis of the subject is potentially INvalid. It becomes a judgement base on an incomplete, or skewed individual point of view. Therefore it can carry NO wieght in a group setting. As a judgement it therefoe guilty of what Romans 2:1 says,
I ASKED satori... "Can you read?" Then reposted what I'd said... so he could read it. "We drove right off the road, under control, into what we had seen seconds before, to be open countryside.
In other words, I was telling satori that; what I thought Kevin actually thought he was doing was driving the truck off the road when the trailer got out of control, he simply didn't see the ravine we crashed into.
I had gone into great painstaking detail recounting this most horrible and singly traumatic event of MY life.
I felt he had discarded my eye witness, active participant account of the event in favor of his own totally uneducated view of the facts regarding it.
quote: Whatever you might factor in, his was the immediate responsibility, and TWI's the ultimate, for the accident - as I see it.
He went on about pervasive culture of secrecy, then made statements that were both exaggerated and then unfactual to support HIS opinion.
quote: Why do you think the in-res Corps sang childrens' songs at every meal? Why were so many in-res Corps meetings held sitting on a floor, with little room to move? These are strategies for conditioning human behavior.
They work, too. he said. Then he made another judgement , this time about me, personally, that I felt was out of line;
quote: You've come a long way since your days in TWI, and you've obviously led a commendable life since, but some of the things you've written suggest to me that you haven't sorted through some of the TWI baggage we all took away with us.
He then told others "Hopefully lurkers, visitors and newcomers to Greasespot will find the time and inclination to review and reflect upon the resources here" to do what he himself evidently was not doing. He iether didn't read what I had written or ignored it, or dismissed it as unfactual.
He went on to write: "The Way Corps was more about conditioning than training, in my opinion."
Put 2 + 2 + 2 together. I saw this "HCW: Some of the things you've written indicate you haven't sorted through...The Way Corps Conditioning... enough to uderstand that even though you were there, and saw what you THINK you saw, you really SHOULD have seen what I SEE."
1. I considered Rochelle a friend, though I only knew her through a mutual friend
2. BOT is evil.
3. Their policies are evil.
4. Kevin was a pawn in their evil scheme.
5. You were high-maintenance
6. You don't know what you saw
7. I know what you should have seen in what you saw.
8. You're still too conditioned to see it
9. If you read these books (that I'm not giving you the titles to) that you obviously haven't read (for if you'd have read them they would surely have broken your conditioning) then...
9. You would see what you saw 23 years ago like I see it now, even though I WASN'T there and apparently didn't read what you wrote today.
I was offended personally (he did say YOU, to me too) and for the "Lurkers, visitors and newcomers." Satori intentionally slammed me saying, that my not yet shed Way Corps conditioning , TWI baggage blinds me so that I don't know what I saw with my own eyes.
Therefore this idea, read a couple of recommended books that will put you in a better position (than you currently are) so that you can judge things like I do "from a more critical, if at first counter-intuitive perspective." Some of US, are getting our first look, so you MAY (because I don't want to offend you by telling you directly) need to step back a bit more than you have yet, before you can "join us 'Luke' come over to the dark side."
Heavy breathing.....
It was "just a thought" that I had so I threw out, in response to HIS idea.(p14) "Here's an idea. Read the BIBLE. While you read your cult books I was searching the sciptures..." I said that because what HE wrote (about judging from a critical counter-intuitive perspective) indicated to ME that he hadn't and probably doesn't read the Bible.
I showed my reasoning, even posted the scripture Romans 2:1 and its context. THEN I told him I understand where he's coming from but don't get caught up in making judgements and try and pull others into his (group think) cult of making judgements.
Then he twisted my words: "Seems to me you said a decision was made to discontinue the evaluation because it was unwise, or something like that, to do it while driving. By that time it was too late. The driver was distracted beyond the point of no return. He didn't see it coming because he was distracted."
No I said, He put the paper down. Most of the evaluation was talking. The paper only said topics to discuss. He didn't see the ditch because it was up the road and behind him when the truck fishtailed to the left, pointing it to the right. Ditch was on the left, behind him.
The key is coming to your own conclusions based on what you think and what you beleive. When I left TWI I went through everything I think I think.
Now that I'm done with that I know what I think. Therefore I can see more clearly what "YOU" think.
HCW.....yeah, so did I.
In my situation, I had a running start......and was definitely on guard for many years before leaving twi. In my mind, all of twi's upper echelon were "red-flagged" by 1986......vpw, lcm, cgeer, txwnsend, etc. I knew too much and needed more time to "scope the landscape."
Like you noted, I went through everything I think I think. Everything! Back through all my years of programs, of commitments, of why I signed the green card and where my thinking was at THAT time!
Like a scalpel, I cut down deep....so very deep! All the while, I kept in mind that The word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword; piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Where were MY thoughts? Where was MY thinking? What do I believe??
I clearly understand why some here at GS are still "sorting thru the mess." It's just so much, so overwhelming, so deceptive. Layer by layer, one needs to keep his surgical eyes open!
From what I've observed here at GS, there are LOTS of "individual thinkers"............and a great place to share personal stories. ;)-->
HCW, I think your heart is in the right place but I feel that maybe you have misunderstood satori's actions...he does write rather abrutly I must admit but everything he has said I do agree with.
...right, vickles, and actually, HCW, you have snubbed and ignored certain posters who have been very kind to you and have tried to get to know you....
I've spent a good portion of my life on this thread for more than a week. Please do not read any anger into this post. I'm not angry. I'm just a little dismayed that anyone would feel that I'm ignoring or snubbing them.
I think the evidence is there that I've tried to go back into the thread and answer questions that people have asked. There are not enough hours in the day to get to everyone, but I can tell you I've answered every private message I've recieved and ever email that I've received also.
I've taken some time also to catch up with old friends that I've know for decades too.
If anyone feels ignored or snubbed please, by all means LET ME KNOW. Feel free to let me know exactly how you feel. I really don't bite.
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HCW
As far as standing up, talking back. People did that a lot, especially after POP. People got "mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!" Of my personal pet peeves was the whole money thing. T
HAPe4me
I never participated in it, but I always thought it sounded like "Outward Bound", which has been measurably more successful in achieving it's participant's goals.
So_crates
Yes, but then there's the counter teaching: If you obey the MOG, God will bless you. So what do you do when the MOG orders you to act recklessly? Rhetorical question. SoCrates
houseisarockin
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dabobbada
Scout Finch,
I once worked with a man who recieved a head injury in a Jeep accident in Korea. Nicest guy you'd ever want to meet, but the accident made him a manic depressive. As long as he took his meds, he was OK.
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A la prochaine
Scout,
Ditto what Excie said.
Whenever things went out of the 'norm' in TWI, right away leaders and other nazis deemed that person 'weak' of believing or even worse 'possessed'.
I had a woman in my fellowship who suffered from depression for years. She had the class many many years before, was a pretty faithful follower but nothing seemed to help.
Finally, on the phone with her one day, while she was in tears and nothing I said seemed to solice her, I realized that I was not equipped to handle this problem.
She had told me that her Dr. had recommended a month treatment at a certain hospital. I said to her...go...go now!!!
So she went. She came back a changed person. A person who was able to control her mind and no longer suffered from this painful depression. She was put on medication and was a joy to be with.
I want to tell you that I thought that was the best thing that person ever did for herself!
But the sad part was that other leaders/corps didn't see it that way. Again, 'she is weak' was the general consensus.
Rochelle, I am sure, hid all her pain...because of the same 'thinking' propounded in TWI and ESPECIALLY in the way corpse.
Sad, I feel sad.
:(-->
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HCW
Scout;
That's what I'm talking about! You clearly pointed out that S.
Who better to be a focal point in Rochelle's network than ME and others who were there with her. I literrally helped her hold her head together and made sure the FIRST stretcher th e leave the scene had she on it. She was my FRIEND dammit! She nearly missed having her HEAD severed. People who proported themselves to be at the EPICENTER of the wave of almight GOD's Word moving over the whole inhabited world. Took he away from those who could have been the MOST help to her.
She sat right next to me every Wednesday night at Corps night for a year, She was in my TWIG at LEAD 104 (GRRrr......)
On that week in the wilderness Kevin & Donnie Smith ^ the rest of the LEAD staff poured their BEST in to us. I will NEVER forget how indignant Donnie was when he told us everthing just short of .... THEM who say you're weak, you don't desrve to be Way Corps.
"I Don't give ONE DAMN what they say," said Donnie. "You shouldn't either. Why?
Repeat after me:
with feeling now...
"My arms and my legs are like STEEL,
My hands are like VICE GRIPS,
My fet are like hind's feet,
And my mind is like CHRIST'S
I can do ALL THINGS!!!
LEAD 104!!!!!!!
LOUDER!
LEAD 104!!!!!!!
LOUDER!!!!!
LEAD 104!!!!!!!!!!!!
I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!!!
LEAD 104!!!!!!!
Ok.
Now GROWL....
GRRRRrrrrrrrr.........
##################################
Group think isn't always a bad thing.
The New England Partiots just "GROUP THINKed" themselves to the pinnacle of professional sports.
They are on their way to going down in History as the best TEAM in professional sports.
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excathedra
Every person reacts differently to a traumatic event (life-threatening ones and emotional ones) depending on their makeup, past, etc. (could shed some light on why some people think a thing is no big deal while it's a very big deal to someone else, but that's a different subject).
So much is intertwined here, not to mention brain injury. What a shame people didn't get much needed appropriate care and support.
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excathedra
i just read your newest post, howard.... how horrible not to be able to be there for each other as friends, "family." taking away someone's right to grieve and go over the events together. i get it.
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washingtonweather
I have been informed my request for info on the day of the accident has been forwarded to the Sheriff's office...
more later
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rascal
Yeah excathedra, so sad that folks not only couldn`t get the needed care and support....we were taught that there was no OTHER place better than twi for lifes answeres/acess to God/healing... We couldn`t get any help in twi, and we were told that to seek other options was *second best*.
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excathedra
i hear ya rascal. that's one reason i think it's so hurtful if they really have a slogan or whatever on their web site to take a class instead of seeing a shrink
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A la prochaine
HCW,
You are weak. What a thing to say to you guys. How humiliating. They didn't even have the balls to tell it to your faces.
I'm sure for Rochelle that was a huge blow to her self esteem.
If she was already battling with these issues to begin with, now it's re-inforced by those she trusts and 'thinks' she is loved by.
I know how sensitive I can be and it would be one thing for Donnie to think well of me as he did with you guys on lead 104, but to have to go back to the campus and face those who are not convinced, that would be another thing.
And regarding the accident ~ I'm sure in her mind she played the broken record...Where was my believing?
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rascal
Oh geeze wash, that is WIERD!
Why would you need to go through the sherriffs dept. for info in a news paper????
Scarey.
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excathedra
she probably wants the accident report from the police station
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A la prochaine
That's it Excie.
WW posted earlier that is what she is doing.
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skyrider
HCW.....yeah, it is splitting hairs and I kinda see what you're getting at. But...when "people think what they think on their own" and EXIT twi......and later find this website and see substantiating evidence by dozens and dozens of posters.....is that "mutual thinking" or "groupthink?"
I doubt that I'm not the only one who formulated my opinions of twi before coming here.
Anyways.....it matters little to me. I've got several stories of my own to tell........someday.
Thanks HCW for posting this. Also, you DO play a mean basketball game! That I know first-hand!
;)-->
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waterbuffalo
Remember Radar, Al, etal, everytime Martinduke presided over the 13th Corps meetings our last year, he always mentioned what a BIG thing it was in his mind everyday when he woke up that he was prez of a "multi-million dollar corporation." Those words rang in my ears then and they still ring now.
I remember thinking, "if you keep bragging so much, your words are gonna come back and bite ya."
She coulda had the best medical treatment out there and twi never even would of felt it financially.
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excathedra
I think, and believe the psych world says so, that people who have experienced heavy trauma, especially in childhood, will have a much harder time with a trauma like an accident.
and much worse if they haven't worked through their old stuff. a lot of times they will use childhood coping techniques which are not the right ones anymore.
last night i was thinking about myself and all the people i knew in twi with unresolved heavy duty problems....
sorry for choo choo. i was actually thinking about sweet rochelle when it wrote this.
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HCW
Point taken Steve.
I'm not really speaking much to Oldiesman's POV or the relative merits of his position. I don't doubt what you said about satori, rascal, etc.
I've seen at least some of what you mentioned. However I thought I was seeing this:
As long as the group seemed to agree w satori everything was cool through pg5 when the focus turned back to the story & related issues.
There was some talk about individual responsibility... some more shots at Oldie, he fired back the thread flowed ping-ponging a discussion that was to a degree, MUTUALLY unwelcome.
Satori agreed in apology.
The thread rolled along and turned into a virtual "love fest" thru p9, expressing some thinking, figuring, some fun. Then I posted the following on pg 13:
Maybe a little over the top in the drama dept, but hey this is a dramatic story.
Satori countered with:
"As HE saw it" was fine, in terms of his stating his opinion. Then it seemed to me like he was trying to "school me" on things most obvious to me.
On pg 14 he stated more of his opinions.
I responded to satori by pointing out things he apparently missed in what I wrote. I admit. It IS a pet peeve of mine when people comment on things and formulate opinions without having read a reading, seen a movie, or when they pull things out of context when they comment.
I believe ANY opinion not based on a complete, thorough analysis of the subject is potentially INvalid. It becomes a judgement base on an incomplete, or skewed individual point of view. Therefore it can carry NO wieght in a group setting. As a judgement it therefoe guilty of what Romans 2:1 says,
"...for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself..."
I ASKED satori... "Can you read?" Then reposted what I'd said... so he could read it. "We drove right off the road, under control, into what we had seen seconds before, to be open countryside.
In other words, I was telling satori that; what I thought Kevin actually thought he was doing was driving the truck off the road when the trailer got out of control, he simply didn't see the ravine we crashed into.
I had gone into great painstaking detail recounting this most horrible and singly traumatic event of MY life.
I felt he had discarded my eye witness, active participant account of the event in favor of his own totally uneducated view of the facts regarding it.
He went on about pervasive culture of secrecy, then made statements that were both exaggerated and then unfactual to support HIS opinion.
They work, too. he said. Then he made another judgement , this time about me, personally, that I felt was out of line;
He then told others "Hopefully lurkers, visitors and newcomers to Greasespot will find the time and inclination to review and reflect upon the resources here" to do what he himself evidently was not doing. He iether didn't read what I had written or ignored it, or dismissed it as unfactual.
He went on to write: "The Way Corps was more about conditioning than training, in my opinion."
Put 2 + 2 + 2 together. I saw this "HCW: Some of the things you've written indicate you haven't sorted through...The Way Corps Conditioning... enough to uderstand that even though you were there, and saw what you THINK you saw, you really SHOULD have seen what I SEE."
1. I considered Rochelle a friend, though I only knew her through a mutual friend
2. BOT is evil.
3. Their policies are evil.
4. Kevin was a pawn in their evil scheme.
5. You were high-maintenance
6. You don't know what you saw
7. I know what you should have seen in what you saw.
8. You're still too conditioned to see it
9. If you read these books (that I'm not giving you the titles to) that you obviously haven't read (for if you'd have read them they would surely have broken your conditioning) then...
9. You would see what you saw 23 years ago like I see it now, even though I WASN'T there and apparently didn't read what you wrote today.
I was offended personally (he did say YOU, to me too) and for the "Lurkers, visitors and newcomers." Satori intentionally slammed me saying, that my not yet shed Way Corps conditioning , TWI baggage blinds me so that I don't know what I saw with my own eyes.
Therefore this idea, read a couple of recommended books that will put you in a better position (than you currently are) so that you can judge things like I do "from a more critical, if at first counter-intuitive perspective." Some of US, are getting our first look, so you MAY (because I don't want to offend you by telling you directly) need to step back a bit more than you have yet, before you can "join us 'Luke' come over to the dark side."
Heavy breathing.....
It was "just a thought" that I had so I threw out, in response to HIS idea.(p14) "Here's an idea. Read the BIBLE. While you read your cult books I was searching the sciptures..." I said that because what HE wrote (about judging from a critical counter-intuitive perspective) indicated to ME that he hadn't and probably doesn't read the Bible.
I showed my reasoning, even posted the scripture Romans 2:1 and its context. THEN I told him I understand where he's coming from but don't get caught up in making judgements and try and pull others into his (group think) cult of making judgements.
Then he twisted my words: "Seems to me you said a decision was made to discontinue the evaluation because it was unwise, or something like that, to do it while driving. By that time it was too late. The driver was distracted beyond the point of no return. He didn't see it coming because he was distracted."
No I said, He put the paper down. Most of the evaluation was talking. The paper only said topics to discuss. He didn't see the ditch because it was up the road and behind him when the truck fishtailed to the left, pointing it to the right. Ditch was on the left, behind him.
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HCW
I'm thinking mutual skyrider.
The key is coming to your own conclusions based on what you think and what you beleive. When I left TWI I went through everything I think I think.
Now that I'm done with that I know what I think. Therefore I can see more clearly what "YOU" think. Again, using the same analogy.
Were I part of Jim Jones' group. I think I would have said, "Excuse me, I don't think WE should drink poison, its nasty." (My mommy taught me that.)
I'm not drinkin' it. And YOU can't make me. Why? Its NASTY.
That introduces the most healthy concept.
INDIVIDUAL thinking.
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HCW
Steve;
Rochelle's head injury, was not disfiguring, as far as I know. Again they kept us separate. It was crazy.
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skyrider
HCW.....yeah, so did I.
In my situation, I had a running start......and was definitely on guard for many years before leaving twi. In my mind, all of twi's upper echelon were "red-flagged" by 1986......vpw, lcm, cgeer, txwnsend, etc. I knew too much and needed more time to "scope the landscape."
Like you noted, I went through everything I think I think. Everything! Back through all my years of programs, of commitments, of why I signed the green card and where my thinking was at THAT time!
Like a scalpel, I cut down deep....so very deep! All the while, I kept in mind that The word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword; piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Where were MY thoughts? Where was MY thinking? What do I believe??
I clearly understand why some here at GS are still "sorting thru the mess." It's just so much, so overwhelming, so deceptive. Layer by layer, one needs to keep his surgical eyes open!
From what I've observed here at GS, there are LOTS of "individual thinkers"............and a great place to share personal stories.
;)-->
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vickles
HCW, I think your heart is in the right place but I feel that maybe you have misunderstood satori's actions...he does write rather abrutly I must admit but everything he has said I do agree with.
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vickles
sorry mistake
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waterbuffalo
...right, vickles, and actually, HCW, you have snubbed and ignored certain posters who have been very kind to you and have tried to get to know you....
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HCW
Snubbed??? Ignored???
Who? When?
I've spent a good portion of my life on this thread for more than a week. Please do not read any anger into this post. I'm not angry. I'm just a little dismayed that anyone would feel that I'm ignoring or snubbing them.
I think the evidence is there that I've tried to go back into the thread and answer questions that people have asked. There are not enough hours in the day to get to everyone, but I can tell you I've answered every private message I've recieved and ever email that I've received also.
I've taken some time also to catch up with old friends that I've know for decades too.
If anyone feels ignored or snubbed please, by all means LET ME KNOW. Feel free to let me know exactly how you feel. I really don't bite.
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