dearest howard, i humbly say to you that this accident (and i mean, accident) was not your fault and neither was rochelle's suicide in any way your fault
this poor baby had psychological problems and soul heartaches long before the lead accident
i see how things progressed and i'm sick and sorry she did not get counseling in TWI for her darling life before LEAD, before the corps program, after LEAD, etc.
and then making her leave the only family she knew was the final straw in her depression
the LEAD accident did not "cause" her depression
TWI was not equipped to handle real problems of the mind, soul. take it from one who knows.
i just want you to realize that the LEAD story and the story of this beautiful young girl are not exactly one in the same. it is a part, yes
Who said Rochelle committed suicide? She was killed in the accident, wasn't she? Even back at Indiana campus we had no idea anyone was killed, we were only told that there was an accident and not much else. Of course we F7 and F9 were very curious and rumors did fly. When the victims started to arrive we were pushed away from them, I don't think even thier friends were allowed to cross thier sanctum sanctorum. My WOW brother and sister were 11th corps at Emporia and when they were sent to Indiana for a block they didn't know any more than we did I think. I may just give Dan or Vicki V. a call and ask what they knew now that they are out. Yes Vicki will tell me everything she knows. And by the way Kevin was our group leader previous to the accident and I thought he was very capable. We, me my hubby. Cathy J. and Kevin all slept in the same tent together and had some interesting conversations. I was mad at him the first few days but soon got over it. Someday I'll tell why I was so mad, but thats another thread. Don't wanna derail this one. Hcw THIS WAS A GREAT THREAD. I wish I had known Rochelle, she deserved so much better. BTW was there ever at least a memorial for her?
Thanks, HCW, for filling in the details in your assessment of the trailer, the truck, and the driver. I can easily amend my take on the incident. ('Course, I still wish that the older grownups, the BOT, had insisted on transport by bus!)
I agree with you and dabobbada -- we were kids, doing the best we could think to do at the time, as kids.
And yeah, I've looked at my kids, and my students, many times and said, "What did you think you were doing?" Always a dumb question, because the guaranteed answer is, "I dunno."
Sounds to me like you were doing everything you could to help others at the scene, while disregarding that you might be injured, which you were. Please don't ever beat yourself up over what else you could have done, before or after. You were injured too, and should have been receiving adequate care and concern from others.
Your heart in the matter makes it clear that you were more than qualified to be "Corps." Those who thought otherwise should be ashamed. I guess their "spiritual perception and awareness" meter was shut off that year... -->
I agree, the gross culpability occurred long after the accident. In their actions toward all of you, you as well as Rochelle. I betcha the others could tell stories of how they were written off, also.
In her post above, excathedra highlighted both the essence of the tragedy of this thread and, in part, the true evil of TWI and similar organizations.
quote:Originally posted by excathedra:
TWI was not equipped to handle real problems of the mind, soul.
Yet it claimed to have answers to those problems, to be able to solve or "heal" them. The pursuit of those answers, solutions, and healing through TWI cost many people many wasted years, spent in denial and make-believe. Others paid more dearly.
and when we were not healed, the problems remained unsolved....it was our fault.....further validation of those feelings of being a failure and all around loser in life.
HCW - send me thos pictures or even those negatives and I will return the originals to you along with a cd with the imnages burned on it. And I'll be glad to post her picture here or elsewhere for you.
I am sorry this thread contained some dumbass posts from some mean, miserable people.
Did you save copies of all your posts, all your writings about this incident and about Rochelle? If so, send it to me in a Word or Notepad document and I will piece it together for you in a web page document that can be posted in its entirety if you would like.
dearest howard, i humbly say to you that this accident (and i mean, accident) was not your fault and neither was rochelle's suicide in any way your fault
this poor baby had psychological problems and soul heartaches long before the lead accident
i see how things progressed and i'm sick and sorry she did not get counseling in TWI for her darling life before LEAD, before the corps program, after LEAD, etc.
and then making her leave the only family she knew was the final straw in her depression
the LEAD accident did not "cause" her depression
TWI was not equipped to handle real problems of the mind, soul. take it from one who knows.
i just want you to realize that the LEAD story and the story of this beautiful young girl are not exactly one in the same. it is a part, yes
more later
I was fortunate in that I was usually around men who tried to visit the sick and comfort the broken hearted. (real lucky I guess.) Though many meant well, all they could do at best was offer God's love and beg you to build your believing.
As the years rolled on, it turned more to the pious platitudes of the self-righteous perfected priesthood until we achieved the High 43rd Order of Gestapo Godliness in the '90s.
It is amazing to me to this day that they did such a good job of hiding their evil works, both to young women and to those who didn't get healed (both mentally and physically,) as TWI thought they should have. they used them up and threw them away.
And I didn't find out until WayDale and Greasespot.
(A la, I'm just dealing with your homemade trailer here so I cut out the rest of A la's post.)
quote:Originally posted by A la prochaine:
OK, the homemade trailer part intrigues me because back in the mid 80's I believe it was, my father was travelling down a highway with a load of wood in a homemade trailer.
As he was travelling, he crossed a bridge and there was a bump in the road where the abuttment was on the bridge. When the trailer hit the bump, the trailer flew off the hitch.
Anyhow, shortly after this my father had to attend a 2 day inquest and his trailer was confiscated as well as the hitch of the vehicle at the time of the accident.
My uncle also was called in as well to testify because he was the one who had built the trailer.
I do not have all the details of the accident, but I know that the hitch was tested and retested under extreme stress tests to see if it was defective. It wasn't.
Yet, I know for a fact that laws were changed after this to make sure that certain specs are enforced regarding trailers.
I think most trailer accidents not based on bad loading start with a bump. Either a hole, or a big rock can send one side of the trailor airborn. If you hit a hole or rock just right, it will also shove the trailor sideways. (Because they are lighter than cars.) These actions can levitate the load for a second and shift it from balanced to unbalanced, which then oscillates and fishtales on you taking you out of control.
Such bumping can also puts a lot of stress on the ball and coupler and can loosen and break them.
Just so we are using the same language, here are the proper definitions.
Hitch - the steel frame that holds the ball to the vehicle.
Ball - Bolted to hitch, attaches vehicle to the trailer coupler.
Trailer coupler/ball coupler - the coupler attaches over and locks to the ball.
Trailer tongue - the trailer frame coming out the front of the trailer, attached to the coupler.
You said the hitch was good, but didn't mention the ball. I'm assuming the ball was good too, they don't fail unless the bolt gets loose but you should notice that when you couple the trailer.
So it appears the problem was in the trailer frame or the coupler. If the frame failed, it would have to be some weld broke, which would be your uncle's fault.
For a failure of the coupler, I can only think of two things. couplers are designed to be bolted to the tongue, most are bolted but some folks will weld them in place. Both are good, but there is the rare break of the coupler/tongue hold. remember all the stress energies of vehicle/trailer dynamic are centered on the ball-coupler. Failure there would again fall on your uncle.
The most common failure is with the tightening knob on the coupler. Inside, as you crank that knob, a cog is supposed to tighten against the ball so the coupler stays put on the ball. It always seems to take way too many cranks to tighten it and if you don't check it by trying to pull the coupler off the ball, it might still be loose.
You always have to double and triple check to see if it is really cranked down tight. Then check it again, if the cog ain't tight, the coupler can bounce up and down and in and out and loosen or break the cog. At that point you are pulling a lethal weapon. The person who tightens the ball is of course guilty one for failure there.
I haven't run a trailer in 7 - 8 years, but I went shopping with my brother when he bought a new Suburban and helped him find a new ball mount. I noticed there all sorts of innovations in hitches, balls, and couplers these days. There are better adjustable ball mounts to make sure the trailer is level and more solid coupler locking systems, this is very good.
For what it is worth, said brother still has two of dad's homemade trailers. :D-->
I don't know if this helps or not, but it just about had to be something with the coupler.
Trailers are quirky, skittish things that have 100 different ways to go wrong on you under the right conditions.
Here's some history trivia, until the late '40s, the national speed limit was 35mph, towing trailers was not a problem.
Til the late '50s, the speed limit was 55, people were expert enough with trailers to use common sense.
In the '60s, the limit went to 65, and on the new Interstate System, they allowed 75mph. Signs started limiting trailers to 45 mph.
In '74, gas cost brought the speed limit to 55 again and trailers were still 45.
In recent years we can go fast again but most cars are too small to pull a trailer. people wisely use vans. ;)-->
was they separated us. It was really upsetting that we never got to "debrief" on thw whole thing. They lined the driveway to welcome us, made an announcement at lunch, then Craig flew back home. The block changed, then I was off to Camp Gunnison. I got along with Tom Jenkinson pretty well there, I felt because he was older he was a little wiser than most of the Corps Coordinators. He never gave me any trouble about my physical limitations after it surfaced that I was, in fact injured.
Looking back, I and all of us required at least some counseling. After my interim year, when it took me 8 months of the year to convince the region coordinator RB that my WOW brother really had emotional problems. The fact that TWI had absolutely no provisions for people who had psychological needs. The only thing I ever knew of even after the accident was Dottie Moynihan having, I think, taken some classes towards some degree or certification in psychology.
Noone ever sat with me and dug into my head about it like, "Are you OK, I mean really." My chiropractor in Gunnison took care of me emotionally. My injury was so severe that I started out seeing him every other day, then as I progressed it went down to three times per week. He really did take care of me as if I were his own son.
Looking back I think I was in some major denial. I'm from Western PA, where pro football players are grown like crops. I always kid people and say that when baby boys are born in Western PA Dr. hand the baby a football and Dads hand out tickets to his first game. Point being we're taught, "winners play through the pain." I "played through it." I "never" would have gone to seek any kind of medical attention and I barely knew what a chiropractor was back then.
My friend Joe poked me in the hip, pulled me aside and got in my face about, "You need a chiropractor, man..." Dr. Coblenz (sp?) told me that in a few months the condition of my spine would have degenerated the disks in my back so badly that my only option would have been surgery to fuse my spine. Thank God for them both. I had a car so I just left class or whatever and went to my appointments, I carried out the Dr.'s instructions to the letter.
I was given leadership roles in the Corps, so I felt that LEAD 104 (GRRRRrrrr..) had taken whatever monkey off my back.
I had trouble at the Indiana Campus with a few people telling Bob M. that I was faking my injuries to get out of work, specifically because someone had asked me to help carry chairs & tables when we had Chapel setup, I was always allowed to sit in a chair during meetings where the setup called for floor seating. Maybe some were jealous?
Finally I was back at Emporia, the year was almost over & I was having tuition problems. They began cracking down on people who were in residence after their tuition ran out and policy became the when your money ran out you were sent LOA. I always thought it was kinda reasonable that you couldn't expect to go to college for free.
That made it all the more shocking when I got called to JAL's office. I was shocked that he told me I was going LOA, my $$$ was current at the time. Since they were cracking down, I asked him why I was being sent LOA when everything was going so well for me, He said, "We'll give you a refunD. If you know JAL he always sort over enunciated t's and d's at the end of a wor-D.
I honestly felt that my life was on the line if I left Emporia. I could just feel it. I'll never forget my hand feeling like it weighed 100lbs as I lifted it to knock on the door of the Trustee Apartment. My good friend January's smiling face when she opened the door wa equally unforgettable.
Dean Don told me about Rochelle's suicide after I had told him why I had come to see him. He told me that she and Kevin W. had been caught having sex and they had both been dismissed from the Corps. He went on about how Kevin had told her he loved her in order to get her to sex him and that she was OK to leave with him because she thought they were in love.
He said that after they left Kevin told her something to the effect of, "Whoa, hold your horses," when she talked about getting married and starting a life together. He said that Kevin's coming clean about lying to her to get in her pants had devastated her. He left her & she committe suicide and was found dead in a motel.
I was so devastated that I didn't really notice there were holes in the story. I had thought she was found in a motel in Emporia, all these years until someone told me the rest of her story.
I was so mad & hurt all at the same time. I knew Kevin well, we all sat together on Corps Nights. Alphabetical order, Waj, Wal, Web, . I never thought Kevin was the type to do something like that, but hey, guys can be dogs, you know. I don't remember ever speaking to him about it though, to this day.
As it turns out, apparently Kevin wasn't the bad guy he was made out to be. When they were thrown out, she had been told to go live with her brother Al in CT. Rochelle was distraught and had agreed to drop kevin off at the limb of Indiana. He said she was very depressed and the limb leaders didn't want her around. They let her stay 2 or 3 days and told her to go.
This was the same limb leader that had recommended that I not be allowed to go back in residence for the final 11th Corps year. It was his recommendation that helped put me on the "weak" list that put me on LEAD 104 (Grrrr...)
He knew she was depressed after being thrown out of the Corps and he sent her out to drive across the country ALONE. He could have and SHOULD called her brother to come get her. He could have sent a Corps person with her even and given them a ticket back to Indy. Iknew this guy didn't give one damn about people when he got mad at me my interin year. I was sent to his state as a WOW family coordinator. For the first part of the year my WOW family was, as he said at our first WOW meeting, the hottest WOWs in the Region.
When my family was producing numbers that made him look good, I was cool with him. When we weren't pulling the numbers I became weak, a poor leader. My guys had some real psychological issues, I wen to him for help with them. He did nothing but write me one of the most devastating letters I've ever received in my life.
John Lynn had been calling people to meet withhim at Corps week after our interim year. He told me of that my LC had given me the thumbs down on returning in residence but he had other info that conflicted the LC. I told him that the LC didn't know me & the others did. He recommended I may want to take another year, blah, blah, blah. He told Rochelle the same thing. Rochelle was adamant about staying w/ her Corps group, I was also.
Rochelle packed her whole life into the trunk of her car, and headed from Indiana towards CT. She was in a lot of pain in her neck from her LEAD injuries. She made it as far as Columbus, Ohio pulled into a HOJO around 4 or 5 pm and took all of her pain pills she had been saving that evening.
They found her dead in the bathroom the next morning.
She DID deserve better. We all did. I didn't know how people weren't told about the accident I was buried under it. I saw a Chiropractor three tomes per week for a long time, I don't know what type of follow-up treatment she got.
She revealed to me that she knew something was wrong with her head and she didn't know what it was. Like she was supposed to know more than she did but it wasn't there . . .
Sooner or later, almost everyone experiences a major life trauma -- major illness or injury, psychological problem. It would make sense to be able to turn to those who claim to have the answers to life for assistance and support.
In TWI, not only did the top leaders have a way of not helping, they were adept at making a bad situation worse. Like Bob said, "Though many meant well, all they could do at best was offer God's love and beg you to build your believing."
I had gone 12 years in TWI without asking for any help above the branch level. When I did, I found out what TWI was really all about.
The love of God was a wonderful thing in the abstract, but organizationally, TWI didn't want to deal with real life. Too messy, not cost effective.
quote:Dean Don told me about Rochelle's suicide after I had told him why I had come to see him. He told me that she and Kevin W. had been caught having sex and they had both been dismissed from the Corps. He went on about how Kevin had told her he loved her in order to get her to sex him and that she was OK to leave with him because she thought they were in love.
He said that after they left Kevin told her something to the effect of, "Whoa, hold your horses," when she talked about getting married and starting a life together. He said that Kevin's coming clean about lying to her to get in her pants had devastated her. He left her & she committe suicide and was found dead in a motel.
I was so devastated that I didn't really notice there were holes in the story. I had thought she was found in a motel in Emporia, all these years until someone told me the rest of her story.
The gross culpability thickens!
What happened after the accident is most telling of trustees......and the rest of the story!!
I doubt that she ever got the proper treatment. I didn't go to the hospital on the day of. I actually thought I wasn't hurt at all, only banged up with a few cuts, not much blood.
Even if I had, from what I know of emergency room triage, they never would have x-rayed my spine, checked my posture, etc. I would have left there even more convinved I was OK.
Rochelle's overt injuries were SO extreme that she was certainly rushed directly into treatment at the emergency room she went to. Medical Dr.s would have prescribed her pain pills, very strong ones at that because even a monkey would have assumed she was going to be dealing with severe pain.
Based on what I saw on my x-rays after having them analyzed by a chiropractor, I'm 100% certain that her x-rays demanded the same at least thrice-weekly adjustments I was getting.
Therefore, she required BOTH Medical and Chiropractic. NOT ONE Way official EVER suggested, encouraged or was in any way proactive towards me getting my treatment. Honestly, the best they ever did was tolerate, and not all of them graciously, the FACT that I was ALREADY OK'ed to get treatment by the time I came to their campus.
No doubt hcw, Rochelle like many of us were taught that to seek treatment would have been a sign of *weak* believing
To mention something being not *right* would be to utter a *negative* and thus denying/preventing God`s healing....
The frustration/shame/pain must have been horrendous.
Throwing her out of the corpes would have been the last straw, since she had heard that all those who didn`t cut it were weak or spiritual cop outs, posessed etc.
The shame .... not feeling you could face the other belivers and let them know what a loser you had become....not knowing HOW you had become such a weak loser.....or how to regain your strength and respectability....the poor poor girl.
Yes Rascal, it was the ultimate betrayal. I told MF to his face, her blood was on his head.
My parents lived in Columbus. While I was on staff I went to visit, they had saved the Columbus Dispatch newspaper article about her death. If we knew the date, maybe they'd have it in their archives?
I still pass by that hotel almost every day, its on a busy intersection. Its changed hands and names several times since then.
Its also true, the pain pills she took were powerful. The sad thing was, she had been feeling better before they threw her out, that's why she had enough pills left to put herself to sleep. RIP Rochelle - until the return.
quote: and therein lies the mutual thinking here. That which is most telling.
That brings up a really good point, I think.
When I first read your "mutual thinking" comment, my mind, although I know I read MUTUAL, my mind said, "Group Think" which we know is a term describing cult behavior.
I was simply "drawn away of my own thoughs, enticed by what I was thinking. In so doing I supplanted your meaning for my own even though I know I acknowledged, mutual. I even thought as I was reading it... "mutual thinking..Hmmmmm, interesting, then went off my own way.
Mutual thinking is when a group, each individual, on his own, of his own accord, thinks the same thing or the way others think, on their own, of their own accord. It is the similar thinking that both creates and then binds the group, and can even define the group.
"Group Think" is a term. It describes how, usually ONE individual person thinks something then other people, each as individuals think what the ONE thinks BECAUSE the one thinks it, regardless of what the individual actually thinks. The individual CHANGES what they, on their own, of their own accord think; they change their thinking to what the ONE thinks.
It is NOT the thinking that creates and binds the group, it is the ONE who creates a group of FOLLOWERS.
In mutual thinking the group all moves in a similar direction together. In Group think the group moves together. The difference is that in "Group think" the group follows the ONE, the group is NOT part of the ONE the group, as one in unison, FOLLOWS the ONE. The one becomes a defacto LEADER; simply by virtue of the fact that a group follows behind.
Mutual thinking involves an actual group, one group. "Group think is actually at least TWO "groups" the ONE (leader) and the GROUP (followers). Those two or more eventually grow into classes. The group collectively, not mutually (there's a difference) supports the leader class who become the "haves" and the follower class, the "have-nots."
They have not because give what they have to "leadership."
Group think is not limited to religious cults, although religion is among the EASIEST things in the world to "CULTify."
Dean Don told me about Rochelle's suicide after I had told him why I had come to see him. He told me that she and Kevin W. had been caught having sex and they had both been dismissed from the Corps. He went on about how Kevin had told her he loved her in order to get her to sex him and that she was OK to leave with him because she thought they were in love.
He said that after they left Kevin told her something to the effect of, "Whoa, hold your horses," when she talked about getting married and starting a life together. He said that Kevin's coming clean about lying to her to get in her pants had devastated her. He left her & she committe suicide and was found dead in a motel.
I was so devastated that I didn't really notice there were holes in the story. I had thought she was found in a motel in Emporia, all these years until someone told me the rest of her story.
So what Don W. said about Kevin and Rochelle was a complete lie from the getgo, right?
At the risk of sounding insensitive - was she pretty badly disfigured in the accident? You said that her scalp was partially torn away - did it leave bad scarring?
And obviously there was some brain trauma, at the very least a concussion.
The reason for these last couple of questions is: those factors probably contributed a lot to her depression.
Which tells me that TWIt leadersh!t was even lower than has been stated. She should have received physical therapy, reconstructive surgery, cosmetic surgery, and a lot of counseling, as well as whatever it is they do for brain injury patients.
And from what I can gather, almost none of this happened.
Rochelle may have had other things in her life that may have CONTRIBUTED to the depression, but the LEAD accident and subsequent lack of treatment and mistreatment were the final blow that drove her to suicide.
I took an introductory law class several years ago. The professor was a practicing lawyer and knew the law very well. We studied a case where an already compromised person died because of injuries inflicted that may not have caused the death of a perfectly healthy person, but did cause the death of this health compromised person. During discussion of the case, several in the class said that the person's death could not be blamed solely on the person inflicting the final injuries (defendant) because there were other contributing factors. The professor said that the condition of the deceased prior to the final injuries did NOT lessen the responsibility of the defendant for the death.
May I explain myself further? I think it bears discussion in light of what happened on this thread.
Well, it is "my" thread, right? At least its my (debatable point) story.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Also. "A soft answer turns away wrath and greivious words stir up anger."
At the time I wrore my thing about mutual thinking I was thinking about group think. I thought I saw it happening here on GS when a certain ONE was bheaving a certain way.
Way back on page 2 satori001, satori's first rant was focused on the BOT; we mutually could agree they are the bad guy here. Some who mutually thought the same thing said, like, "Yeah, the BAStards!"
The satori's focus turned to Oldie.
"...so your real point is that you are missing the point."
No. THAT was SATORI's point ABOUT Oldie's point.
Satori made his point personal to Oldie with his use of YOUR and YOU, at oldie. His words were grievious by their nature, to any and all who viewed them.
Perhaps had satori001 said, "I think YOU are full of sh@t, Oldie!" That, although heated would have been less greievious, as every ONE is EQUALLY entitled to HIS ONE opinion. In MY opinion that would have been the MOST honest thing to say, satori001, regarding YOUR opinion of what Oldie said.
Then, another salvo was fired, same source same target: "...you may be incapable of understanding..." A judgement ABOUT something the shooter definately is INCAPABLE of knowing about the target.
I felt that was TELLING about the shooter. The as long as Oldie at least SEEMED to line up with what the shooter thought, shooter was OK/ Oldie. (see pg 3)
Also:
quote: quote:Originally posted by oldiesman:
Just blame the trustees.
They, and other Way executives overseeing the Corps and LEAD programs, are most definitely responsible.
They weren't driving the truck, but their policies were driving the driver.
HCW - there's some history here that you might not be completely aware of.
oldiesman is pretty much pro-twi, and in general has a very 2-dimensional point of view.
Satori is absolutely not the first to tell him that he may be incapable of understanding.
Just look up any threads that include the subject of women being victims due to TWI unwritten policy, or any thread about adultery or coerced sex, and you'll see what I mean.
Heck, if you were to ask Rascal her opinion about oldiesman, she would likely echo that sentiment.
Steve brings up a good point about physical scars and their impact on Rochelle.
Another thing that most people do not understand is the physical changes that do occur in the brain that manifest themselves through changes in behavior, emotions and even in intelligence.
I have a good friend who suffered a head injury in an automobile accident. Her injury was serious, but probably not as serious as Rochelle's. My friend, S., was very changed after the accident - she was no longer in TWI at the time of the accident, had a support network of family and friends, received excellent medical care, but still had a very difficult time.
S., a highly intelligent person told me her I.Q. dropped 20 points from the accident. She lost her sense of direction, would be in a building and not be able to remember how to find the exit. This did not happen in unfamiliar buildings, but in the building of her doctor's office where she'd been many times. When she couldn't find her way out, she'd have panic attacks. Sometimes she'd get frustrated and just burst into tears.
There was also some shame involved. She'd always been a highly intelligent, independent, self sufficient individual, and now she couldn't find the bathroom, the elevator or the building exit. She said sometimes she'd see the sign that said "exit", could read the word "exit", but couldn't remember what it meant. Some of the most simple, fundamental things were a challenge for her. A brilliant mind that used to process things at nearly lightening speed slowed to a snail's pace. She needed things explained to her in great detail and repeated several times. She couldn't make even the most simple decisions without a great deal of agonizing. She needed 12 to 14 hours of sleep per day to even begin to function. Depression was inevitable as a result of these symptoms. The depression was also worsened by the chemical changes that were occuring in her brain as it was trying to heal from the jarring sustained from the car wreck.
S. said she didn't even know herself anymore. She was moody, she didn't understand why she thought and felt as she did. Who was this stranger that took over her body she wanted to know?
The lucky thing for S. was that she had loving supportive parents, friends that remained her allies and support system even though she sometimes lashed out at us, forgot she was supposed to meet us somewhere and seemed to be in outer space or half asleep when she was with us.
Thanks to her attentive physicians and caring family and friends, S. was put on antidepressants and many other meds when she needed them. She did get therapy. Today she is much better. She recovered most of her lost intelligence and memory. She is witty, funny and the warm caring person I knew before the accident. She is more patient and understanding and has incredible spiritual insight that I rely on when I need some direction at crisis points in my own life. She still needs more sleep than most people (8 - 10 hours per day), but she can hold a job, live alone and heal others with her insight and compassion.
I posted this story to show what Rochelle might have been given the help she deserved as a human, and what I believe she was legally owed by TWI.
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HCW
As far as standing up, talking back. People did that a lot, especially after POP. People got "mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!" Of my personal pet peeves was the whole money thing. T
HAPe4me
I never participated in it, but I always thought it sounded like "Outward Bound", which has been measurably more successful in achieving it's participant's goals.
So_crates
Yes, but then there's the counter teaching: If you obey the MOG, God will bless you. So what do you do when the MOG orders you to act recklessly? Rhetorical question. SoCrates
excathedra
dearest howard, i humbly say to you that this accident (and i mean, accident) was not your fault and neither was rochelle's suicide in any way your fault
this poor baby had psychological problems and soul heartaches long before the lead accident
i see how things progressed and i'm sick and sorry she did not get counseling in TWI for her darling life before LEAD, before the corps program, after LEAD, etc.
and then making her leave the only family she knew was the final straw in her depression
the LEAD accident did not "cause" her depression
TWI was not equipped to handle real problems of the mind, soul. take it from one who knows.
i just want you to realize that the LEAD story and the story of this beautiful young girl are not exactly one in the same. it is a part, yes
more later
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wyteduv58
Who said Rochelle committed suicide? She was killed in the accident, wasn't she? Even back at Indiana campus we had no idea anyone was killed, we were only told that there was an accident and not much else. Of course we F7 and F9 were very curious and rumors did fly. When the victims started to arrive we were pushed away from them, I don't think even thier friends were allowed to cross thier sanctum sanctorum. My WOW brother and sister were 11th corps at Emporia and when they were sent to Indiana for a block they didn't know any more than we did I think. I may just give Dan or Vicki V. a call and ask what they knew now that they are out. Yes Vicki will tell me everything she knows. And by the way Kevin was our group leader previous to the accident and I thought he was very capable. We, me my hubby. Cathy J. and Kevin all slept in the same tent together and had some interesting conversations. I was mad at him the first few days but soon got over it. Someday I'll tell why I was so mad, but thats another thread. Don't wanna derail this one. Hcw THIS WAS A GREAT THREAD. I wish I had known Rochelle, she deserved so much better. BTW was there ever at least a memorial for her?
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shazdancer
Thanks, HCW, for filling in the details in your assessment of the trailer, the truck, and the driver. I can easily amend my take on the incident. ('Course, I still wish that the older grownups, the BOT, had insisted on transport by bus!)
I agree with you and dabobbada -- we were kids, doing the best we could think to do at the time, as kids.
And yeah, I've looked at my kids, and my students, many times and said, "What did you think you were doing?" Always a dumb question, because the guaranteed answer is, "I dunno."
Sounds to me like you were doing everything you could to help others at the scene, while disregarding that you might be injured, which you were. Please don't ever beat yourself up over what else you could have done, before or after. You were injured too, and should have been receiving adequate care and concern from others.
Your heart in the matter makes it clear that you were more than qualified to be "Corps." Those who thought otherwise should be ashamed. I guess their "spiritual perception and awareness" meter was shut off that year...
-->
I agree, the gross culpability occurred long after the accident. In their actions toward all of you, you as well as Rochelle. I betcha the others could tell stories of how they were written off, also.
Regards,
Shaz
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LG
In her post above, excathedra highlighted both the essence of the tragedy of this thread and, in part, the true evil of TWI and similar organizations.
Yet it claimed to have answers to those problems, to be able to solve or "heal" them. The pursuit of those answers, solutions, and healing through TWI cost many people many wasted years, spent in denial and make-believe. Others paid more dearly.Link to comment
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rascal
and when we were not healed, the problems remained unsolved....it was our fault.....further validation of those feelings of being a failure and all around loser in life.
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igotout
HCW - send me thos pictures or even those negatives and I will return the originals to you along with a cd with the imnages burned on it. And I'll be glad to post her picture here or elsewhere for you.
I am sorry this thread contained some dumbass posts from some mean, miserable people.
Did you save copies of all your posts, all your writings about this incident and about Rochelle? If so, send it to me in a Word or Notepad document and I will piece it together for you in a web page document that can be posted in its entirety if you would like.
Just an idea. I am reachable and in the book.
John Richeson
Tampa, FL (not New Jersey
:D-->)
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dabobbada
I was fortunate in that I was usually around men who tried to visit the sick and comfort the broken hearted. (real lucky I guess.) Though many meant well, all they could do at best was offer God's love and beg you to build your believing.
As the years rolled on, it turned more to the pious platitudes of the self-righteous perfected priesthood until we achieved the High 43rd Order of Gestapo Godliness in the '90s.
It is amazing to me to this day that they did such a good job of hiding their evil works, both to young women and to those who didn't get healed (both mentally and physically,) as TWI thought they should have. they used them up and threw them away.
And I didn't find out until WayDale and Greasespot.
Damn them to Hell.
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dabobbada
(A la, I'm just dealing with your homemade trailer here so I cut out the rest of A la's post.)
I think most trailer accidents not based on bad loading start with a bump. Either a hole, or a big rock can send one side of the trailor airborn. If you hit a hole or rock just right, it will also shove the trailor sideways. (Because they are lighter than cars.) These actions can levitate the load for a second and shift it from balanced to unbalanced, which then oscillates and fishtales on you taking you out of control.
Such bumping can also puts a lot of stress on the ball and coupler and can loosen and break them.
Just so we are using the same language, here are the proper definitions.
Hitch - the steel frame that holds the ball to the vehicle.
Ball - Bolted to hitch, attaches vehicle to the trailer coupler.
Trailer coupler/ball coupler - the coupler attaches over and locks to the ball.
Trailer tongue - the trailer frame coming out the front of the trailer, attached to the coupler.
You said the hitch was good, but didn't mention the ball. I'm assuming the ball was good too, they don't fail unless the bolt gets loose but you should notice that when you couple the trailer.
So it appears the problem was in the trailer frame or the coupler. If the frame failed, it would have to be some weld broke, which would be your uncle's fault.
For a failure of the coupler, I can only think of two things. couplers are designed to be bolted to the tongue, most are bolted but some folks will weld them in place. Both are good, but there is the rare break of the coupler/tongue hold. remember all the stress energies of vehicle/trailer dynamic are centered on the ball-coupler. Failure there would again fall on your uncle.
The most common failure is with the tightening knob on the coupler. Inside, as you crank that knob, a cog is supposed to tighten against the ball so the coupler stays put on the ball. It always seems to take way too many cranks to tighten it and if you don't check it by trying to pull the coupler off the ball, it might still be loose.
You always have to double and triple check to see if it is really cranked down tight. Then check it again, if the cog ain't tight, the coupler can bounce up and down and in and out and loosen or break the cog. At that point you are pulling a lethal weapon. The person who tightens the ball is of course guilty one for failure there.
I haven't run a trailer in 7 - 8 years, but I went shopping with my brother when he bought a new Suburban and helped him find a new ball mount. I noticed there all sorts of innovations in hitches, balls, and couplers these days. There are better adjustable ball mounts to make sure the trailer is level and more solid coupler locking systems, this is very good.
For what it is worth, said brother still has two of dad's homemade trailers.
:D-->
I don't know if this helps or not, but it just about had to be something with the coupler.
Trailers are quirky, skittish things that have 100 different ways to go wrong on you under the right conditions.
Here's some history trivia, until the late '40s, the national speed limit was 35mph, towing trailers was not a problem.
Til the late '50s, the speed limit was 55, people were expert enough with trailers to use common sense.
In the '60s, the limit went to 65, and on the new Interstate System, they allowed 75mph. Signs started limiting trailers to 45 mph.
In '74, gas cost brought the speed limit to 55 again and trailers were still 45.
In recent years we can go fast again but most cars are too small to pull a trailer. people wisely use vans.
;)-->
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HCW
The way they handled us
was they separated us. It was really upsetting that we never got to "debrief" on thw whole thing. They lined the driveway to welcome us, made an announcement at lunch, then Craig flew back home. The block changed, then I was off to Camp Gunnison. I got along with Tom Jenkinson pretty well there, I felt because he was older he was a little wiser than most of the Corps Coordinators. He never gave me any trouble about my physical limitations after it surfaced that I was, in fact injured.
Looking back, I and all of us required at least some counseling. After my interim year, when it took me 8 months of the year to convince the region coordinator RB that my WOW brother really had emotional problems. The fact that TWI had absolutely no provisions for people who had psychological needs. The only thing I ever knew of even after the accident was Dottie Moynihan having, I think, taken some classes towards some degree or certification in psychology.
Noone ever sat with me and dug into my head about it like, "Are you OK, I mean really." My chiropractor in Gunnison took care of me emotionally. My injury was so severe that I started out seeing him every other day, then as I progressed it went down to three times per week. He really did take care of me as if I were his own son.
Looking back I think I was in some major denial. I'm from Western PA, where pro football players are grown like crops. I always kid people and say that when baby boys are born in Western PA Dr. hand the baby a football and Dads hand out tickets to his first game. Point being we're taught, "winners play through the pain." I "played through it." I "never" would have gone to seek any kind of medical attention and I barely knew what a chiropractor was back then.
My friend Joe poked me in the hip, pulled me aside and got in my face about, "You need a chiropractor, man..." Dr. Coblenz (sp?) told me that in a few months the condition of my spine would have degenerated the disks in my back so badly that my only option would have been surgery to fuse my spine. Thank God for them both. I had a car so I just left class or whatever and went to my appointments, I carried out the Dr.'s instructions to the letter.
I was given leadership roles in the Corps, so I felt that LEAD 104 (GRRRRrrrr..) had taken whatever monkey off my back.
I had trouble at the Indiana Campus with a few people telling Bob M. that I was faking my injuries to get out of work, specifically because someone had asked me to help carry chairs & tables when we had Chapel setup, I was always allowed to sit in a chair during meetings where the setup called for floor seating. Maybe some were jealous?
Finally I was back at Emporia, the year was almost over & I was having tuition problems. They began cracking down on people who were in residence after their tuition ran out and policy became the when your money ran out you were sent LOA. I always thought it was kinda reasonable that you couldn't expect to go to college for free.
That made it all the more shocking when I got called to JAL's office. I was shocked that he told me I was going LOA, my $$$ was current at the time. Since they were cracking down, I asked him why I was being sent LOA when everything was going so well for me, He said, "We'll give you a refunD. If you know JAL he always sort over enunciated t's and d's at the end of a wor-D.
I honestly felt that my life was on the line if I left Emporia. I could just feel it. I'll never forget my hand feeling like it weighed 100lbs as I lifted it to knock on the door of the Trustee Apartment. My good friend January's smiling face when she opened the door wa equally unforgettable.
Dean Don told me about Rochelle's suicide after I had told him why I had come to see him. He told me that she and Kevin W. had been caught having sex and they had both been dismissed from the Corps. He went on about how Kevin had told her he loved her in order to get her to sex him and that she was OK to leave with him because she thought they were in love.
He said that after they left Kevin told her something to the effect of, "Whoa, hold your horses," when she talked about getting married and starting a life together. He said that Kevin's coming clean about lying to her to get in her pants had devastated her. He left her & she committe suicide and was found dead in a motel.
I was so devastated that I didn't really notice there were holes in the story. I had thought she was found in a motel in Emporia, all these years until someone told me the rest of her story.
I was so mad & hurt all at the same time. I knew Kevin well, we all sat together on Corps Nights. Alphabetical order, Waj, Wal, Web, . I never thought Kevin was the type to do something like that, but hey, guys can be dogs, you know. I don't remember ever speaking to him about it though, to this day.
As it turns out, apparently Kevin wasn't the bad guy he was made out to be. When they were thrown out, she had been told to go live with her brother Al in CT. Rochelle was distraught and had agreed to drop kevin off at the limb of Indiana. He said she was very depressed and the limb leaders didn't want her around. They let her stay 2 or 3 days and told her to go.
This was the same limb leader that had recommended that I not be allowed to go back in residence for the final 11th Corps year. It was his recommendation that helped put me on the "weak" list that put me on LEAD 104 (Grrrr...)
He knew she was depressed after being thrown out of the Corps and he sent her out to drive across the country ALONE. He could have and SHOULD called her brother to come get her. He could have sent a Corps person with her even and given them a ticket back to Indy. Iknew this guy didn't give one damn about people when he got mad at me my interin year. I was sent to his state as a WOW family coordinator. For the first part of the year my WOW family was, as he said at our first WOW meeting, the hottest WOWs in the Region.
When my family was producing numbers that made him look good, I was cool with him. When we weren't pulling the numbers I became weak, a poor leader. My guys had some real psychological issues, I wen to him for help with them. He did nothing but write me one of the most devastating letters I've ever received in my life.
John Lynn had been calling people to meet withhim at Corps week after our interim year. He told me of that my LC had given me the thumbs down on returning in residence but he had other info that conflicted the LC. I told him that the LC didn't know me & the others did. He recommended I may want to take another year, blah, blah, blah. He told Rochelle the same thing. Rochelle was adamant about staying w/ her Corps group, I was also.
Rochelle packed her whole life into the trunk of her car, and headed from Indiana towards CT. She was in a lot of pain in her neck from her LEAD injuries. She made it as far as Columbus, Ohio pulled into a HOJO around 4 or 5 pm and took all of her pain pills she had been saving that evening.
They found her dead in the bathroom the next morning.
She DID deserve better. We all did. I didn't know how people weren't told about the accident I was buried under it. I saw a Chiropractor three tomes per week for a long time, I don't know what type of follow-up treatment she got.
Whatever it was she didn't get enough.
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sealed
I have not read all the pages (1,2, 28,29).
Rochelle arrived at HQ after the incident.
She revealed to me that she knew something was wrong with her head and she didn't know what it was. Like she was supposed to know more than she did but it wasn't there . . .
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shazdancer
Sooner or later, almost everyone experiences a major life trauma -- major illness or injury, psychological problem. It would make sense to be able to turn to those who claim to have the answers to life for assistance and support.
In TWI, not only did the top leaders have a way of not helping, they were adept at making a bad situation worse. Like Bob said, "Though many meant well, all they could do at best was offer God's love and beg you to build your believing."
I had gone 12 years in TWI without asking for any help above the branch level. When I did, I found out what TWI was really all about.
The love of God was a wonderful thing in the abstract, but organizationally, TWI didn't want to deal with real life. Too messy, not cost effective.
Regards,
Shaz
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skyrider
The gross culpability thickens!
What happened after the accident is most telling of trustees......and the rest of the story!!
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houseisarockin
Howard, and therein lies the mutual thinking here. That which is most telling.
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HCW
Sealed;
Did she ever show you her head?
I doubt that she ever got the proper treatment. I didn't go to the hospital on the day of. I actually thought I wasn't hurt at all, only banged up with a few cuts, not much blood.
Even if I had, from what I know of emergency room triage, they never would have x-rayed my spine, checked my posture, etc. I would have left there even more convinved I was OK.
Rochelle's overt injuries were SO extreme that she was certainly rushed directly into treatment at the emergency room she went to. Medical Dr.s would have prescribed her pain pills, very strong ones at that because even a monkey would have assumed she was going to be dealing with severe pain.
Based on what I saw on my x-rays after having them analyzed by a chiropractor, I'm 100% certain that her x-rays demanded the same at least thrice-weekly adjustments I was getting.
Therefore, she required BOTH Medical and Chiropractic. NOT ONE Way official EVER suggested, encouraged or was in any way proactive towards me getting my treatment. Honestly, the best they ever did was tolerate, and not all of them graciously, the FACT that I was ALREADY OK'ed to get treatment by the time I came to their campus.
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rascal
No doubt hcw, Rochelle like many of us were taught that to seek treatment would have been a sign of *weak* believing
To mention something being not *right* would be to utter a *negative* and thus denying/preventing God`s healing....
The frustration/shame/pain must have been horrendous.
Throwing her out of the corpes would have been the last straw, since she had heard that all those who didn`t cut it were weak or spiritual cop outs, posessed etc.
The shame .... not feeling you could face the other belivers and let them know what a loser you had become....not knowing HOW you had become such a weak loser.....or how to regain your strength and respectability....the poor poor girl.
The ultimate betrayal.
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Sunesis
Yes Rascal, it was the ultimate betrayal. I told MF to his face, her blood was on his head.
My parents lived in Columbus. While I was on staff I went to visit, they had saved the Columbus Dispatch newspaper article about her death. If we knew the date, maybe they'd have it in their archives?
I still pass by that hotel almost every day, its on a busy intersection. Its changed hands and names several times since then.
Its also true, the pain pills she took were powerful. The sad thing was, she had been feeling better before they threw her out, that's why she had enough pills left to put herself to sleep. RIP Rochelle - until the return.
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HCW
Thanks House.
That brings up a really good point, I think.
When I first read your "mutual thinking" comment, my mind, although I know I read MUTUAL, my mind said, "Group Think" which we know is a term describing cult behavior.
I was simply "drawn away of my own thoughs, enticed by what I was thinking. In so doing I supplanted your meaning for my own even though I know I acknowledged, mutual. I even thought as I was reading it... "mutual thinking..Hmmmmm, interesting, then went off my own way.
Mutual thinking is when a group, each individual, on his own, of his own accord, thinks the same thing or the way others think, on their own, of their own accord. It is the similar thinking that both creates and then binds the group, and can even define the group.
"Group Think" is a term. It describes how, usually ONE individual person thinks something then other people, each as individuals think what the ONE thinks BECAUSE the one thinks it, regardless of what the individual actually thinks. The individual CHANGES what they, on their own, of their own accord think; they change their thinking to what the ONE thinks.
It is NOT the thinking that creates and binds the group, it is the ONE who creates a group of FOLLOWERS.
In mutual thinking the group all moves in a similar direction together. In Group think the group moves together. The difference is that in "Group think" the group follows the ONE, the group is NOT part of the ONE the group, as one in unison, FOLLOWS the ONE. The one becomes a defacto LEADER; simply by virtue of the fact that a group follows behind.
Mutual thinking involves an actual group, one group. "Group think is actually at least TWO "groups" the ONE (leader) and the GROUP (followers). Those two or more eventually grow into classes. The group collectively, not mutually (there's a difference) supports the leader class who become the "haves" and the follower class, the "have-nots."
They have not because give what they have to "leadership."
Group think is not limited to religious cults, although religion is among the EASIEST things in the world to "CULTify."
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skyrider
HCW.....don't quite follow you point on "mutual thinking" and "groupthink"...
Just following your story, I posted this above:
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Steve!
So what Don W. said about Kevin and Rochelle was a complete lie from the getgo, right?
At the risk of sounding insensitive - was she pretty badly disfigured in the accident? You said that her scalp was partially torn away - did it leave bad scarring?
And obviously there was some brain trauma, at the very least a concussion.
The reason for these last couple of questions is: those factors probably contributed a lot to her depression.
Which tells me that TWIt leadersh!t was even lower than has been stated. She should have received physical therapy, reconstructive surgery, cosmetic surgery, and a lot of counseling, as well as whatever it is they do for brain injury patients.
And from what I can gather, almost none of this happened.
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Scout Finch
Rochelle may have had other things in her life that may have CONTRIBUTED to the depression, but the LEAD accident and subsequent lack of treatment and mistreatment were the final blow that drove her to suicide.
I took an introductory law class several years ago. The professor was a practicing lawyer and knew the law very well. We studied a case where an already compromised person died because of injuries inflicted that may not have caused the death of a perfectly healthy person, but did cause the death of this health compromised person. During discussion of the case, several in the class said that the person's death could not be blamed solely on the person inflicting the final injuries (defendant) because there were other contributing factors. The professor said that the condition of the deceased prior to the final injuries did NOT lessen the responsibility of the defendant for the death.
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HCW
May I explain myself further? I think it bears discussion in light of what happened on this thread.
Well, it is "my" thread, right? At least its my (debatable point) story.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Also. "A soft answer turns away wrath and greivious words stir up anger."
At the time I wrore my thing about mutual thinking I was thinking about group think. I thought I saw it happening here on GS when a certain ONE was bheaving a certain way.
Way back on page 2 satori001, satori's first rant was focused on the BOT; we mutually could agree they are the bad guy here. Some who mutually thought the same thing said, like, "Yeah, the BAStards!"
The satori's focus turned to Oldie.
"...so your real point is that you are missing the point."
No. THAT was SATORI's point ABOUT Oldie's point.
Satori made his point personal to Oldie with his use of YOUR and YOU, at oldie. His words were grievious by their nature, to any and all who viewed them.
Perhaps had satori001 said, "I think YOU are full of sh@t, Oldie!" That, although heated would have been less greievious, as every ONE is EQUALLY entitled to HIS ONE opinion. In MY opinion that would have been the MOST honest thing to say, satori001, regarding YOUR opinion of what Oldie said.
Then, another salvo was fired, same source same target: "...you may be incapable of understanding..." A judgement ABOUT something the shooter definately is INCAPABLE of knowing about the target.
I felt that was TELLING about the shooter. The as long as Oldie at least SEEMED to line up with what the shooter thought, shooter was OK/ Oldie. (see pg 3)
Also:
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Steve!
HCW - there's some history here that you might not be completely aware of.
oldiesman is pretty much pro-twi, and in general has a very 2-dimensional point of view.
Satori is absolutely not the first to tell him that he may be incapable of understanding.
Just look up any threads that include the subject of women being victims due to TWI unwritten policy, or any thread about adultery or coerced sex, and you'll see what I mean.
Heck, if you were to ask Rascal her opinion about oldiesman, she would likely echo that sentiment.
As would I.
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Scout Finch
Steve brings up a good point about physical scars and their impact on Rochelle.
Another thing that most people do not understand is the physical changes that do occur in the brain that manifest themselves through changes in behavior, emotions and even in intelligence.
I have a good friend who suffered a head injury in an automobile accident. Her injury was serious, but probably not as serious as Rochelle's. My friend, S., was very changed after the accident - she was no longer in TWI at the time of the accident, had a support network of family and friends, received excellent medical care, but still had a very difficult time.
S., a highly intelligent person told me her I.Q. dropped 20 points from the accident. She lost her sense of direction, would be in a building and not be able to remember how to find the exit. This did not happen in unfamiliar buildings, but in the building of her doctor's office where she'd been many times. When she couldn't find her way out, she'd have panic attacks. Sometimes she'd get frustrated and just burst into tears.
There was also some shame involved. She'd always been a highly intelligent, independent, self sufficient individual, and now she couldn't find the bathroom, the elevator or the building exit. She said sometimes she'd see the sign that said "exit", could read the word "exit", but couldn't remember what it meant. Some of the most simple, fundamental things were a challenge for her. A brilliant mind that used to process things at nearly lightening speed slowed to a snail's pace. She needed things explained to her in great detail and repeated several times. She couldn't make even the most simple decisions without a great deal of agonizing. She needed 12 to 14 hours of sleep per day to even begin to function. Depression was inevitable as a result of these symptoms. The depression was also worsened by the chemical changes that were occuring in her brain as it was trying to heal from the jarring sustained from the car wreck.
S. said she didn't even know herself anymore. She was moody, she didn't understand why she thought and felt as she did. Who was this stranger that took over her body she wanted to know?
The lucky thing for S. was that she had loving supportive parents, friends that remained her allies and support system even though she sometimes lashed out at us, forgot she was supposed to meet us somewhere and seemed to be in outer space or half asleep when she was with us.
Thanks to her attentive physicians and caring family and friends, S. was put on antidepressants and many other meds when she needed them. She did get therapy. Today she is much better. She recovered most of her lost intelligence and memory. She is witty, funny and the warm caring person I knew before the accident. She is more patient and understanding and has incredible spiritual insight that I rely on when I need some direction at crisis points in my own life. She still needs more sleep than most people (8 - 10 hours per day), but she can hold a job, live alone and heal others with her insight and compassion.
I posted this story to show what Rochelle might have been given the help she deserved as a human, and what I believe she was legally owed by TWI.
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excathedra
beautifully said, scout
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