I tried to speak to Grand Poobahs at HQ about a few leaders and was soundly reproved for going over my leader's head. They said I should confront the leader in question, IF what I say was true, which they thought it wasn't BECAUSE I didn't confront the leader in question. How convoluted is that?
Like I'm supposed to say to my area leader (probably the same guy from th NE Hope) "Hey you need to stop sleeping with the girl from my teen twig". That would have gone over really big.
These leaders and poobahs protected each other like the Vatican protected child molesters. I was OUT soon after this icident because I started to see that everyone was totally full of crap and weren't living what they preached.
quote:I'm wondering... if most of us knew about these personality flaws - whether by experience or word-of-mouth - why didn't any of us say anything? And if we heard about these people - can we assume that the Grand Poobahs at HQ's knew about them as well?
Hope, like so many other things in twi.....the landscape kept changing around us.
For years, we went thru the "lock box revelation" period...
Then, there was the "genuine suspicion" era.....
Then, there was the "biblical confrontation one on one" .....
If that didn't work......"in the mouth of two or three witnesses" go for it....
If that didn't work......"bring the whole dang fellowship".....
And lastly, it went back to.......lcm will tell you what to do!....
What the "revelation" is today...........I have NO IDEA.
Even from the very beginning, leadership was always good at answering a question with a question and turning any criticism right back around to the bearer. Easier just to smile and say "bless you".
Being a prophet Nathan to any of the TWI kings was a dangerous job.
I guess having spent my entire 10 years in one location, I never heard much or knew much about someone until they got here and I had a chance to watch them in action.
When "the change" came here and things got ugly, I fought it and climbed "the tree" a number of times. I actually got a lot of support and back up from my limb/region coordinators (who you probably know, Hope). But I also figured, eventually they were gonna get sick of me calling them and bitching about the people here.
Plus, I saw a lot of people I really cared about start to either leave or get kicked out in droves - it was scary. After I had my first son, my focus changed entirely from "trying to fix things in TWI" to trying to keep my head low and my family intact. That was when things went from bad to worse for me. Probably would have been better to stay on the front lines and have had them kick me out.
I agree with your basic premise. Often times the "joe believer" types were completely aware of certain leadership types reputations. The twi followers were close with one another, and we tended to keep up with our dear friends by phone, mail and of course roa.
Your question...if the local joe believer types knew about "stuff" why didn't the *LEADERSHIP know? There is a very simple answer to this....it was because of the twi practice of changing placements, almost like changing "administrations." For example, my first couple of years on staff at hq...I lived on grounds in a trailer with the trunk coordinator and his family. I had known the wife since childhood.....moved in with them soon after coming on staff...and worked at the switchboard.
I remember one distinct situation....the trunk guy at hq, didn't like a certain territory coordinator in the limb that Ralph was doing......I remember sitting in my kitchen watching D fight it out on the phone with Ralph over this guy. It was ugly....20 years later I remember it.
The trunk coordinator had followed Ralph D....who had followed, Vince, who had followed...I think Bo, ,,,,and the "ankle bones's connected to knee bone," etc. Say, that NE limb guy was highly favored by trunk guy A...he gets cush placements. Along comes trunk guy B,,,,,who thinks that the NE is an idiot....etc. Placements flowed all downhill like that. It was ALL ABOUT networking it twi.
I remember asking one trunk guy..."who the hell likes this guy so much?" He has already ruined two limbs and you are giving him a 3rd to trash? The trunk guy just shrugged and blew me off.
I will qualify this....by 1990...it did not matter who liked anyone. If lcm, donna or rosie didn't like someone, for any reason....THEY WERE AXED, this includes DEW and Howard Allen. I know someone that was present in a room when lcm told dew that he didn't care WHO dew liked, that dew was lucky he (lcm) didn't *DROP KICK* dew, his family and HIS MOM out of twi. It was all screwed up beyond belief!!
"Call me Miss..." actually did get reproved, and by VP himself. I didn't actually know about it firsthand, but this thread brought up a funny memory.
I was discussing my WOW year with my now husband, who upon hearing of the formality, suddenly burst out laughing. Seems he had been to a family camp (remember those?) in the summer of 1975 and VPW asked to meet with WOW vets. He asked the group if they would go out on the field again, and this one individual answered "NO" and gave as the reason the formality demanded by a certain Texas BL who was WC. VP had a $hit fit, got the guy to tell who it was privately, and the next thing little old doulos Garden knows it's "call me first name."'
When my honey told me this story, I remembered the reversal in formality. But now I knew....the rest of the story!
I remember one time that year, WG, that one of your WOW brethren, after I had called her "S", told me that I should call her "Miss"... I said "why, it has nothing to do with the respect I have or don't have for her"... she never mentioned it to me and I always called her "S", but I knew it was around... it was a miracle I was there anyway...
...those were the days... I have always cared a great deal for you all... ever hear from your brothers "E" or "A"???
"I agree with your basic premise. Often times the "joe believer" types were completely aware of certain leadership types reputations. The twi followers were close with one another, and we tended to keep up with our dear friends by phone, mail and of course roa."
I was followign th etopic until here.
The lowly Joe Beleiver was aware of leadership's reputations?
How?
If you 'Joe Beleiver' have never seen /heard of some 'leader' how did you know about them?
I dont think that 'Joe' had contacts with other followers in all other states, so that with a few phone calls he could find out all the dirt on some 'leader'.
If you moved around TWI every year for each different assignment, and met all your friends again each year at the Rock, Than I dont see that as being the average beleiver.
Sorry.
That sounds to me like someone who had been drinking the coolaid for a number of years and had either gone WOW numerous times, or was a corpse themselves.
The sanctity of way leadership was all powerful. One simply did not criticise , speak negatively of, or argue with a leader . The results were almost always the same. Harsh reproof for going against the man of God, in your face yelling at why YOU are the one who's got the problem.
After all , the first step down from the 'mystery' in the first century was turning from the man of God. I spent a whole Saturday once in a twig leaders meeting, being drilled on this by the region coordinators wife. The message was clear and never wavered. You have a conflict with someone over you-it's YOUR fault-not the one with the 'responsibility' to God. Like all the sap in the way tree, it filtered down through limb, branch, twig. Even pfal grads thought they had a leg up on lowly non grads.
In pfal.....vpw describes "how people get off the word by focusing on things they don't like".....someone doesn't like my tie, so I (vp) take my tie off....
....someone doesn't like my shirt, so I take my shirt off......someone doesn't like my suit, pretty soon we're going to get down to the bare facts peee-pul.
....it's the word, the word.....I've staked my whole like on this word (blah, blah, blah)....it's NOT what people say ABOUT you.
Indoctrination....indoctrination....thru successive classes, leaders, situations..... it was "sin" to bring accountability into present situations.
First of all, I think that the "average" believer did move around a lot. I only know a few folks who were in TWI for any amount of time who stayed in the same place they got involved in.
Even though I went through the Way Corps, I wasn't an insider at all. Some of these reputations were simply known because TWI was really a small place. If you moved around a lot like I did, you got to know a lot of people - whether you were in the Corps or not.
I would hear things about certain leaders like "man, you don't want to get sent WOW to THAT state - Mr. Big is there and he's a mean SOB". Or, "watch out for that department head [at HQ's] -- she's really tough to work for..."
The other side of the reputation coin is that there were many "Joe Believers" who had certain qualities pinned on them because of a mistake or two they might have made in the past.
When I came to Florida, there was a wonderful guy in the West Palm branch named Tom who had recently moved there from Lousiana. I mean, this guy was the salt of the earth - one of the nicest, funniest people I have ever met.
Well, it seems that the Limb leader of LA called Tom's current branch leaders and told them all kinds of awful crap that he had apparently done in LA - and to watch out for him.
I gotta give the Florida branch leaders credit. They saw the innate goodness of this man and instead of making him a TWI pariah, they sat down and told him about the call - asked him about the accusations and found out that his old Limb Leader just plain hated his guts because Tom had stood up to him a couple of times. So anything Tom did wrong was magnified and passed around the state to the point that he felt like he had to move away and start fresh again.
The good news is that he moved to an area where we all loved him to pieces! If anyone tried to tell any of us about his past - we'd tell them we didn't know who they were talking about - it must be some other guy named Tom.
quote:The sanctity of way leadership was all powerful. One simply did not criticise , speak negatively of, or argue with a leader . The results were almost always the same. Harsh reproof for going against the man of God, in your face yelling at why YOU are the one who's got the problem.
AMEN! WC staunchly defended each other against any attacks and then "reported" up the chain of command the problems the joe believer had.
My husband and I had run ins with our HFC over several things. We talked to this person about it many times and we also tried to quit being assistants numerous times but were told over and over again that they needed us to help with "this one thing" and then we could step down.
One day something else happened because of the hfc's lack of direction and communication and our whole day was shot taking care of their crap. I was steamed. My husband had been working long days all week and it was the first day he had off and we were actually going to get to spend some time together. I left a scathing voice mail and that night we were called to a meeting with the local wc.
The hfc was fixing to go into the wc training so it was this person and the wc couple running our branch on one side of the room and my husband and I on the other side facing them. We were criticized and yelled at and told how wrong we were and how WE weren't being good assistant coordinators and WE weren't helping our hfc and basically total losers. Our hfc was wc material and how dare we criticize any actions or decisions made from that kind of spiritual person. My husband just sat there staring at the floor. He hardly uttered 3 words the whole night.... "I'm so sorry."
I know we didn't do anything wrong and we had asked repeatedly to not be assistants and we had requested repeatedly to get consistent, clear directions on how to handle certain things if they wouldn't let us step down. Seemed pretty clear to me who was at fault, but NO...I was the troublemaker. I was rebellious and that's as bad as the sin of witchcraft doncha know?
They were in my face for a good 20 minutes and my husband didn't stand up to them one time even though he shared the same frustrations with me. I was tired. Tired of fighting. Tired of getting beaten down. Tired of not getting any support from the one person I should have been able to count on. I apologized. Then THEY decided it would be a good thing if we took a break from being assitant coordinators. -->
Joe Believer knew that "resistance is futile" when it comes to complaining about anyone in the corps. In corps training they have you so scared and tired that you don't have the energy or strength to even try to complain about bad leadership. My ex was treated horribly the last year he was in residence, but they were HIS leadership and he saw the support for them from the people above them so he already knew what the outcome would have been should he have said anything about their incompetence.
If you thought I was "sharing dirt" I apologize. I was careful not to use this person's real name, and I was honestly surprised that more than one person would have had an idea to whom I referred.
The original topic was Corps Nazis. I was sharing some things that happened to me when I was a WOW. No one whose initials I mentioned or who participated in an incident I mentioned did anything that that individual would consider particularly wrong, and if either of those people were to come on this forum and inform me "I was the one you were referring to" I wouldn't have a problem with it. If that person/those persons think it's okay to be playing "master/mistress of the universe" with my life, I'd love for them to explain it to me once again.
The individual whose initials I used became a different person in the 2-3 three years after that year, and softened up quite a bit.
These were incidents that I thought illustrated the point of the thread and if I offended you I apologize.
"galen, just because you know someone by their initials doesn't mean you were an "insider." i think it means you knew the same people"
In a ministry of thousands, scattered over such a huge area, stretched out for 40 years? Yes I think it does, sorry.
:-)
"i don't think this discussion has anything to do with having ministered to people"
I thought that was supposed to be what we were [are] doing. My bad.
:-)
Hope-
"First of all, I think that the "average" believer did move around a lot. I only know a few folks who were in TWI for any amount of time who stayed in the same place they got involved in."
I agree entirely.
I have moved around a lot, I generally have stayed in any one area for about 3 years and then moved on to another area. And yes, it certainly does seem that most of the beleivers that we have known, also have moved on. We were most certainly among a group of highly mobile people.
"Even though I went through the Way Corps, I wasn't an insider at all. Some of these reputations were simply known because TWI was really a small place. If you moved around a lot like I did, you got to know a lot of people - whether you were in the Corps or not."
Hmm, and here we agree, but come to different conclusions. I also moved around alot, and during those 18 years, we knew a lot of people. But when so many here on GS begin rattling off all these names of people, none of them are from any of the fellowships that I ever attended, Europe or North America [coast to coast]. Maybe you ALL jsut moved around a lot more than I have been doing.
"I would hear things about certain leaders like "man, you don't want to get sent WOW to THAT state - Mr. Big is there and he's a mean SOB". Or, "watch out for that department head [at HQ's] -- she's really tough to work for..."
Working with WOWs, I thought that most WOWs were off limits, do it all themselves, the local beleivers were commonly told to stay away. I know that I was told that in 4 different limbs.
Department Heads? huh? In what limb?
"The other side of the reputation coin is that there were many "Joe Believers" who had certain qualities pinned on them because of a mistake or two they might have made in the past. When I came to Florida, there was a wonderful guy in the West Palm branch named Tom who had recently moved there from Lousiana. I mean, this guy was the salt of the earth - one of the nicest, funniest people I have ever met. Well, it seems that the Limb leader of LA called Tom's current branch leaders and told them all kinds of awful crap that he had apparently done in LA - and to watch out for him."
That was one of the greatest things about NOT being an 'insider'.
There was / is no M&A list of us. I was thrown out in 1980 by one LC, I moved to another area, called HQ for the local fellowship and started going. No body could be called to check on us. I was thrown out again in 1993, and gues what? We moved to another area, called HW got the local fellowship and started attending. Why? because there was no body for the local fellowship to call and no list of M&As to check. Only Corpse were put onto a listing, only corpse knew each other enough to call each other areas and ask about.
When I went into a new area, 'If' there is already a fellowship going, then I go to it. But who is going to 'call' anyone? Who are they going to call? The Twig Coordinator is often a local, he is not corpse, he does not know anyone in the state or country that I just came from, how could he? He is jsut a Joe Beleiver.
"I give the Florida branch leaders credit."
Bet they were corpse, regular BCs would nto have made the call.
Watered Garden-
You are wonderful, bless you. Thank you.
I too am amazed at how many recognized the person by their initials.
You're right - the Branch Leaders were corps - but they didn't make the call. The Louisiana Limb guy was the one who called them to WARN them about this guy. That's the way it usually worked. The old leaders called the new ones with the "dirt". Or they were told at some meeting or the ROA. Otherwise, you're right, no one called to "check up" on people for the most part.
I don't understand what you mean by "No body could be called to check on us"... Did the people who kicked you out in '80 and '93 leave the area you had been in?
We are not on any list of M&A either - we never even got a letter. It was spread around by word-of-mouth that we got kicked out. The reasons were revealed to the people who TWI believed "needed to know". You know how that fire spreads?
quote:Even though I went through the Way Corps, I wasn't an insider at all. Some of these reputations were simply known because TWI was really a small place. If you moved around a lot like I did, you got to know a lot of people - whether you were in the Corps or not.
Galen/Hope
As a corps grad, the "insider label" is nowhere near my door. I tend to think that most corps, who moved every two or three years, were NOT insiders who tracked reputation-dirt, or whatever.
I have/had NO knowledge of SB's reputation --- NONE. The only reason I knew who was being discussed in that conversation is the hints gave her away......4th corps.....clegy woman..... southern belle.
To figure out the person....for me, it was only a matter of elimination. The 4th corps had about 70-80 or so (?)........clergywoman -- only 18-20 women were ordained in twi...... southern belle --- that narrowed it down to say 2 or 3............ with the initials of SB..... BINGO.
Being corps and working on staff....... I was required to learn people's names! :)-->
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Georgio Jessio
I tried to speak to Grand Poobahs at HQ about a few leaders and was soundly reproved for going over my leader's head. They said I should confront the leader in question, IF what I say was true, which they thought it wasn't BECAUSE I didn't confront the leader in question. How convoluted is that?
Like I'm supposed to say to my area leader (probably the same guy from th NE Hope) "Hey you need to stop sleeping with the girl from my teen twig". That would have gone over really big.
These leaders and poobahs protected each other like the Vatican protected child molesters. I was OUT soon after this icident because I started to see that everyone was totally full of crap and weren't living what they preached.
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skyrider
Hope, like so many other things in twi.....the landscape kept changing around us.
For years, we went thru the "lock box revelation" period...
Then, there was the "genuine suspicion" era.....
Then, there was the "biblical confrontation one on one" .....
If that didn't work......"in the mouth of two or three witnesses" go for it....
If that didn't work......"bring the whole dang fellowship".....
And lastly, it went back to.......lcm will tell you what to do!....
What the "revelation" is today...........I have NO IDEA.
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Jim
Even from the very beginning, leadership was always good at answering a question with a question and turning any criticism right back around to the bearer. Easier just to smile and say "bless you".
Being a prophet Nathan to any of the TWI kings was a dangerous job.
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excathedra
i should have started with vee pee's reputation, right hopie ?
how stupid can we be when we're young and/or f'd up and/or both
i'm ashamed
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Abigail
I guess having spent my entire 10 years in one location, I never heard much or knew much about someone until they got here and I had a chance to watch them in action.
When "the change" came here and things got ugly, I fought it and climbed "the tree" a number of times. I actually got a lot of support and back up from my limb/region coordinators (who you probably know, Hope). But I also figured, eventually they were gonna get sick of me calling them and bitching about the people here.
Plus, I saw a lot of people I really cared about start to either leave or get kicked out in droves - it was scary. After I had my first son, my focus changed entirely from "trying to fix things in TWI" to trying to keep my head low and my family intact. That was when things went from bad to worse for me. Probably would have been better to stay on the front lines and have had them kick me out.
Oh well, hind sight is 20/20.
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Radar OReilly
GREAT TOPIC HOPE!
I agree with your basic premise. Often times the "joe believer" types were completely aware of certain leadership types reputations. The twi followers were close with one another, and we tended to keep up with our dear friends by phone, mail and of course roa.
Your question...if the local joe believer types knew about "stuff" why didn't the *LEADERSHIP know? There is a very simple answer to this....it was because of the twi practice of changing placements, almost like changing "administrations." For example, my first couple of years on staff at hq...I lived on grounds in a trailer with the trunk coordinator and his family. I had known the wife since childhood.....moved in with them soon after coming on staff...and worked at the switchboard.
I remember one distinct situation....the trunk guy at hq, didn't like a certain territory coordinator in the limb that Ralph was doing......I remember sitting in my kitchen watching D fight it out on the phone with Ralph over this guy. It was ugly....20 years later I remember it.
The trunk coordinator had followed Ralph D....who had followed, Vince, who had followed...I think Bo, ,,,,and the "ankle bones's connected to knee bone," etc. Say, that NE limb guy was highly favored by trunk guy A...he gets cush placements. Along comes trunk guy B,,,,,who thinks that the NE is an idiot....etc. Placements flowed all downhill like that. It was ALL ABOUT networking it twi.
I remember asking one trunk guy..."who the hell likes this guy so much?" He has already ruined two limbs and you are giving him a 3rd to trash? The trunk guy just shrugged and blew me off.
I will qualify this....by 1990...it did not matter who liked anyone. If lcm, donna or rosie didn't like someone, for any reason....THEY WERE AXED, this includes DEW and Howard Allen. I know someone that was present in a room when lcm told dew that he didn't care WHO dew liked, that dew was lucky he (lcm) didn't *DROP KICK* dew, his family and HIS MOM out of twi. It was all screwed up beyond belief!!
ror
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excathedra
yeah well F 'em all
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Watered Garden
To give the devil his due....
"Call me Miss..." actually did get reproved, and by VP himself. I didn't actually know about it firsthand, but this thread brought up a funny memory.
I was discussing my WOW year with my now husband, who upon hearing of the formality, suddenly burst out laughing. Seems he had been to a family camp (remember those?) in the summer of 1975 and VPW asked to meet with WOW vets. He asked the group if they would go out on the field again, and this one individual answered "NO" and gave as the reason the formality demanded by a certain Texas BL who was WC. VP had a $hit fit, got the guy to tell who it was privately, and the next thing little old doulos Garden knows it's "call me first name."'
When my honey told me this story, I remembered the reversal in formality. But now I knew....the rest of the story!
WG
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socks
Miss?
:D-->
The socks cult calls our women "Your Excellence", but that's another story.
:D-->
Me, I've always preferred "El Soques" personally. (A La taught me that the correct pronunciation to soques would be "sock-ay" with the emphasis on ay)
So I like the ring - "El Sock-AY! Wassup mon ami?!"
Reputations are to be loved, people to be used. No, wait...is that how it goes?
:D--> I'm confused.
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Tom Strange
I remember one time that year, WG, that one of your WOW brethren, after I had called her "S", told me that I should call her "Miss"... I said "why, it has nothing to do with the respect I have or don't have for her"... she never mentioned it to me and I always called her "S", but I knew it was around... it was a miracle I was there anyway...
...those were the days... I have always cared a great deal for you all... ever hear from your brothers "E" or "A"???
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Galen
Radar O'Reilly:
"I agree with your basic premise. Often times the "joe believer" types were completely aware of certain leadership types reputations. The twi followers were close with one another, and we tended to keep up with our dear friends by phone, mail and of course roa."
I was followign th etopic until here.
The lowly Joe Beleiver was aware of leadership's reputations?
How?
If you 'Joe Beleiver' have never seen /heard of some 'leader' how did you know about them?
I dont think that 'Joe' had contacts with other followers in all other states, so that with a few phone calls he could find out all the dirt on some 'leader'.
If you moved around TWI every year for each different assignment, and met all your friends again each year at the Rock, Than I dont see that as being the average beleiver.
Sorry.
That sounds to me like someone who had been drinking the coolaid for a number of years and had either gone WOW numerous times, or was a corpse themselves.
:-)
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Galen
I am glad that many here were such 'insiders' that they can recognize one another by 2 letter initials. And that they were up on all the dirt.
Did any of this help the thousands that you were ministering to?
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excathedra
galen, just because you know someone by their initials doesn't mean you were an "insider." i think it means you knew the same people
what dirt ? someone sharing their experience about an immature foot of a girl
i don't know. i don't think this discussion has anything to do with having ministered to people in the past
it could be we're just perceiving things differently, hugs
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hiway29
The sanctity of way leadership was all powerful. One simply did not criticise , speak negatively of, or argue with a leader . The results were almost always the same. Harsh reproof for going against the man of God, in your face yelling at why YOU are the one who's got the problem.
After all , the first step down from the 'mystery' in the first century was turning from the man of God. I spent a whole Saturday once in a twig leaders meeting, being drilled on this by the region coordinators wife. The message was clear and never wavered. You have a conflict with someone over you-it's YOUR fault-not the one with the 'responsibility' to God. Like all the sap in the way tree, it filtered down through limb, branch, twig. Even pfal grads thought they had a leg up on lowly non grads.
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skyrider
In pfal.....vpw describes "how people get off the word by focusing on things they don't like".....someone doesn't like my tie, so I (vp) take my tie off....
....someone doesn't like my shirt, so I take my shirt off......someone doesn't like my suit, pretty soon we're going to get down to the bare facts peee-pul.
....it's the word, the word.....I've staked my whole like on this word (blah, blah, blah)....it's NOT what people say ABOUT you.
Indoctrination....indoctrination....thru successive classes, leaders, situations..... it was "sin" to bring accountability into present situations.
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Hope R.
Galen -
First of all, I think that the "average" believer did move around a lot. I only know a few folks who were in TWI for any amount of time who stayed in the same place they got involved in.
Even though I went through the Way Corps, I wasn't an insider at all. Some of these reputations were simply known because TWI was really a small place. If you moved around a lot like I did, you got to know a lot of people - whether you were in the Corps or not.
I would hear things about certain leaders like "man, you don't want to get sent WOW to THAT state - Mr. Big is there and he's a mean SOB". Or, "watch out for that department head [at HQ's] -- she's really tough to work for..."
The other side of the reputation coin is that there were many "Joe Believers" who had certain qualities pinned on them because of a mistake or two they might have made in the past.
When I came to Florida, there was a wonderful guy in the West Palm branch named Tom who had recently moved there from Lousiana. I mean, this guy was the salt of the earth - one of the nicest, funniest people I have ever met.
Well, it seems that the Limb leader of LA called Tom's current branch leaders and told them all kinds of awful crap that he had apparently done in LA - and to watch out for him.
I gotta give the Florida branch leaders credit. They saw the innate goodness of this man and instead of making him a TWI pariah, they sat down and told him about the call - asked him about the accusations and found out that his old Limb Leader just plain hated his guts because Tom had stood up to him a couple of times. So anything Tom did wrong was magnified and passed around the state to the point that he felt like he had to move away and start fresh again.
The good news is that he moved to an area where we all loved him to pieces! If anyone tried to tell any of us about his past - we'd tell them we didn't know who they were talking about - it must be some other guy named Tom.
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Belle
AMEN! WC staunchly defended each other against any attacks and then "reported" up the chain of command the problems the joe believer had.
My husband and I had run ins with our HFC over several things. We talked to this person about it many times and we also tried to quit being assistants numerous times but were told over and over again that they needed us to help with "this one thing" and then we could step down.
One day something else happened because of the hfc's lack of direction and communication and our whole day was shot taking care of their crap. I was steamed. My husband had been working long days all week and it was the first day he had off and we were actually going to get to spend some time together. I left a scathing voice mail and that night we were called to a meeting with the local wc.
The hfc was fixing to go into the wc training so it was this person and the wc couple running our branch on one side of the room and my husband and I on the other side facing them. We were criticized and yelled at and told how wrong we were and how WE weren't being good assistant coordinators and WE weren't helping our hfc and basically total losers. Our hfc was wc material and how dare we criticize any actions or decisions made from that kind of spiritual person. My husband just sat there staring at the floor. He hardly uttered 3 words the whole night.... "I'm so sorry."
I know we didn't do anything wrong and we had asked repeatedly to not be assistants and we had requested repeatedly to get consistent, clear directions on how to handle certain things if they wouldn't let us step down. Seemed pretty clear to me who was at fault, but NO...I was the troublemaker. I was rebellious and that's as bad as the sin of witchcraft doncha know?
They were in my face for a good 20 minutes and my husband didn't stand up to them one time even though he shared the same frustrations with me. I was tired. Tired of fighting. Tired of getting beaten down. Tired of not getting any support from the one person I should have been able to count on. I apologized. Then THEY decided it would be a good thing if we took a break from being assitant coordinators.
-->
Joe Believer knew that "resistance is futile" when it comes to complaining about anyone in the corps. In corps training they have you so scared and tired that you don't have the energy or strength to even try to complain about bad leadership. My ex was treated horribly the last year he was in residence, but they were HIS leadership and he saw the support for them from the people above them so he already knew what the outcome would have been should he have said anything about their incompetence.
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Watered Garden
Tom Strange I sent you a private topic.
WG
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Watered Garden
Galen,
If you thought I was "sharing dirt" I apologize. I was careful not to use this person's real name, and I was honestly surprised that more than one person would have had an idea to whom I referred.
The original topic was Corps Nazis. I was sharing some things that happened to me when I was a WOW. No one whose initials I mentioned or who participated in an incident I mentioned did anything that that individual would consider particularly wrong, and if either of those people were to come on this forum and inform me "I was the one you were referring to" I wouldn't have a problem with it. If that person/those persons think it's okay to be playing "master/mistress of the universe" with my life, I'd love for them to explain it to me once again.
The individual whose initials I used became a different person in the 2-3 three years after that year, and softened up quite a bit.
These were incidents that I thought illustrated the point of the thread and if I offended you I apologize.
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socks
hiway29:
Saps - 'barking up the wrong tree'
:D-->
And we know what dogs do when that leg goes up.
:D--> Hey, non-grads, they're "empties" anyway. Gotta be good for somethin'.
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tomtuttle
I'm sorry too Galen.
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Galen
excathedra:
"galen, just because you know someone by their initials doesn't mean you were an "insider." i think it means you knew the same people"
In a ministry of thousands, scattered over such a huge area, stretched out for 40 years? Yes I think it does, sorry.
:-)
"i don't think this discussion has anything to do with having ministered to people"
I thought that was supposed to be what we were [are] doing. My bad.
:-)
Hope-
"First of all, I think that the "average" believer did move around a lot. I only know a few folks who were in TWI for any amount of time who stayed in the same place they got involved in."
I agree entirely.
I have moved around a lot, I generally have stayed in any one area for about 3 years and then moved on to another area. And yes, it certainly does seem that most of the beleivers that we have known, also have moved on. We were most certainly among a group of highly mobile people.
"Even though I went through the Way Corps, I wasn't an insider at all. Some of these reputations were simply known because TWI was really a small place. If you moved around a lot like I did, you got to know a lot of people - whether you were in the Corps or not."
Hmm, and here we agree, but come to different conclusions. I also moved around alot, and during those 18 years, we knew a lot of people. But when so many here on GS begin rattling off all these names of people, none of them are from any of the fellowships that I ever attended, Europe or North America [coast to coast]. Maybe you ALL jsut moved around a lot more than I have been doing.
"I would hear things about certain leaders like "man, you don't want to get sent WOW to THAT state - Mr. Big is there and he's a mean SOB". Or, "watch out for that department head [at HQ's] -- she's really tough to work for..."
Working with WOWs, I thought that most WOWs were off limits, do it all themselves, the local beleivers were commonly told to stay away. I know that I was told that in 4 different limbs.
Department Heads? huh? In what limb?
"The other side of the reputation coin is that there were many "Joe Believers" who had certain qualities pinned on them because of a mistake or two they might have made in the past. When I came to Florida, there was a wonderful guy in the West Palm branch named Tom who had recently moved there from Lousiana. I mean, this guy was the salt of the earth - one of the nicest, funniest people I have ever met. Well, it seems that the Limb leader of LA called Tom's current branch leaders and told them all kinds of awful crap that he had apparently done in LA - and to watch out for him."
That was one of the greatest things about NOT being an 'insider'.
There was / is no M&A list of us. I was thrown out in 1980 by one LC, I moved to another area, called HQ for the local fellowship and started going. No body could be called to check on us. I was thrown out again in 1993, and gues what? We moved to another area, called HW got the local fellowship and started attending. Why? because there was no body for the local fellowship to call and no list of M&As to check. Only Corpse were put onto a listing, only corpse knew each other enough to call each other areas and ask about.
When I went into a new area, 'If' there is already a fellowship going, then I go to it. But who is going to 'call' anyone? Who are they going to call? The Twig Coordinator is often a local, he is not corpse, he does not know anyone in the state or country that I just came from, how could he? He is jsut a Joe Beleiver.
"I give the Florida branch leaders credit."
Bet they were corpse, regular BCs would nto have made the call.
Watered Garden-
You are wonderful, bless you. Thank you.
I too am amazed at how many recognized the person by their initials.
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Hope R.
Galen -
You're right - the Branch Leaders were corps - but they didn't make the call. The Louisiana Limb guy was the one who called them to WARN them about this guy. That's the way it usually worked. The old leaders called the new ones with the "dirt". Or they were told at some meeting or the ROA. Otherwise, you're right, no one called to "check up" on people for the most part.
I don't understand what you mean by "No body could be called to check on us"... Did the people who kicked you out in '80 and '93 leave the area you had been in?
We are not on any list of M&A either - we never even got a letter. It was spread around by word-of-mouth that we got kicked out. The reasons were revealed to the people who TWI believed "needed to know". You know how that fire spreads?
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skyrider
Galen/Hope
As a corps grad, the "insider label" is nowhere near my door. I tend to think that most corps, who moved every two or three years, were NOT insiders who tracked reputation-dirt, or whatever.
I have/had NO knowledge of SB's reputation --- NONE. The only reason I knew who was being discussed in that conversation is the hints gave her away......4th corps.....clegy woman..... southern belle.
To figure out the person....for me, it was only a matter of elimination. The 4th corps had about 70-80 or so (?)........clergywoman -- only 18-20 women were ordained in twi...... southern belle --- that narrowed it down to say 2 or 3............ with the initials of SB..... BINGO.
Being corps and working on staff....... I was required to learn people's names!
:)-->
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