I agree, Jonny. Wierwille used the Advanced Class as the class to begin to introduce his supposedly superior knowledge about how the world really works. Conspiracies, devil spirit possessions, and "seed boys" lurking around every corner.
I think he embraced "the Thirteenth Tribe," whether he read it all or not, because it sounded like a more scholarly base for his bigotry than "Myth of the Six Million," which he also espoused.
I agree with Abi and Hope. Proselytes or DNA-pure, Jews are Jews because of their beliefs. I read most of "Tribe," and my reaction was, "so what?" And the verse completely ignored by Wierwille, "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance." Jews continue to be God's chosen people, and if Romans is true, they will be judged by the Law. Gentiles will be judged by the law that they are unto themselves, and Christians will be judged according to their faith in Jesus Christ.
God is so much bigger (and more just) than the little box Wierwille wanted to put Him into.
I've posted this before, but will do so in condensed form.
Why did VP have this stuff? Because he was a member of the Liberty Lobby, which also printed a magazine called the Spotlight.
The Liberty Lobby is an organization based in Washington D.C. that is a political "front" for White Supremist groups. It is the "respectable" political umbrella for these various white supremist organizations.
7th corps, remember our "secret constitution" that was passed out to us? I still have it. Right on the inside back cover is an order form to subscribe to the Spotlight and membership in the Liberty Lobby.
All his advanced class tapes regarding the Illuminati, Trilateral Commission, etc. - the "heavy" stuff that was taught, were tapes that came from the Liberty Lobby.
VP also had a "hotline" number he could call with all the latest conspiracy updates. This came straight from someone who worked closely with him. Remember Malpack? Head for the hills? We must stand or our country is going to fall? All this was brought to you courtesy of the Liberty Lobby. VP then taught it and acted like it was his revelation.
Remember the Jim Jones suicides, how it was really done by the government, etc.? Thank you Liberty Lobby!
Remember when Wheaties Box and Olympic star Bob Richards came to speak to us at corps week one year? Gee, he was the Populist Party (they are the political arm of the Liberty Lobby) presidential candidate that year - what a coincidence he would take time out of his busy schecule to talk to us and schmooze with VP.
Those of you who have those books, one of them, the Myth of the 6 million, or 13th Tribe is only published by the Liberty Lobby's bookstore.
VP was a white supremist, but it was not something he spoke about in public. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble. Research the Liberty Lobby.
I've posted this before, but will do so in condensed form.
Why did VP have this stuff? Because he was a member of the Liberty Lobby, which also printed a magazine called the Spotlight.
The Liberty Lobby is an organization based in Washington D.C. that is a political "front" for White Supremist groups. It is the "respectable" political umbrella for these various white supremist organizations.
7th corps, remember our "secret constitution" that was passed out to us? I still have it. Right on the inside back cover is an order form to subscribe to the Spotlight and membership in the Liberty Lobby.
All his advanced class tapes regarding the Illuminati, Trilateral Commission, etc. - the "heavy" stuff that was taught, were tapes that came from the Liberty Lobby.
VP also had a "hotline" number he could call with all the latest conspiracy updates. This came straight from someone who worked closely with him. Remember Malpack? Head for the hills? We must stand or our country is going to fall? All this was brought to you courtesy of the Liberty Lobby. VP then taught it and acted like it was his revelation.
Remember the Jim Jones suicides, how it was really done by the government, etc.? Thank you Liberty Lobby!
Remember when Wheaties Box and Olympic star Bob Richards came to speak to us at corps week one year? Gee, he was the Populist Party (they are the political arm of the Liberty Lobby) presidential candidate that year - what a coincidence he would take time out of his busy schecule to talk to us and schmooze with VP.
Those of you who have those books, one of them, the Myth of the 6 million, or 13th Tribe is only published by the Liberty Lobby's bookstore.
VP was a white supremist, but it was not something he spoke about in public. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble. Research the Liberty Lobby.
You don't mean to suggest that
Wierwille ripped off some other people's work and claimed it was revelation,
do you?
You don't mean to suggest that
Wierwille didn't have the brains to recognize a conspiracy theory when it came up and bit him in the sit-upon,
do you?
You don't mean to suggest that
virtually all of wierwille's claims of divine revelation were completely bogus, and just made to smokescreen the sources he plagiarized,
do you?
=====
If you don't,
then I do, at any rate.
"You don't see it? Too bad-I do!"-
lcm, in his wap feeble attempt to explain art and the Original Sin.
quote:The Gentiles of Romans 11 were not unbelieving Gentiles, they were the Christians who had come to Christ from Gentile backgrounds. These chapters open up whole vistas of the relation between Jews and Gentiles in the Church that are vastly different from what Wierwille taught in PFAL.
Steve Lortz, I just read Chapter 11, and I guess this is where the Christians get the idea that the Jews will be saved, cause it says it right there in verse 26. I guess they believe all Jews are the same as Israel in that verse?
But I still don't get it. One can believe Jesus is a bastard child, an imposter, not the Messiah, totally reject him, and still be saved? Gee, that sure IS a departure from PFAL...
Yeah I read it and she offers no real proof other than her own accusative mindset against VP and Liberty Lobby.
We went over this several months back. Willis Carto the founder of Liberty Lobby was represented by lawyer Mark Lane in the famous "Hunt v. Liberty Lobby" case. Mr. Lane, an accomplished Jewish lawyer who wrote a few books about the JFK assassination, had some pretty nice things to say about Carto.
So who should we believe, Sunesis who didn't know Carto from Adam, or Mr. Lane?
I will be happy to re-type what Lane wrote about Carto if anyone cares...
Besides, I don't need to know anything about Carto to know VP wasn't a White Supremist. Such nonsense.
"One can believe Jesus is a bastard child, an imposter, not the Messiah, totally reject him, and still be saved? Gee, that sure IS a departure from PFAL..."
Oldies, the thoughts and opinions Jews have regarding who Jesus was vary greatly. Have you ever discussed this topic with any Jews? If so how many? Ever researched what the Jewish view is regarding Jesus? If so how thoroughly.
While you are correct, many Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, there are likewise many, many Jews who do believe he was a great Rabbi and see much value in his teachings.
wkat about that other book that was recommended?? cann't remember the name but something about no jews being slaughtered during the war??anyone remember that one?
OM, that's just one point we'll have to agree to disagree on. ;)-->
I do think it's telling that part of vee pee pee's agenda was to push propaganda that had absolutely nothing to do with the Bible and helping people understand it or live better lives.
I think it's telling that Biblical research isn't the only thing he plagarized and claimed to be from his own brain. Which brings us back to his motives and intentions with starting TWI.
I never believed the myth of the six million. I had learned too much from family, WWII vets, Jews and guest speakers at my local college growing up to ever believe the holocaust wasn't true. And even if they exaggerated the numbers by 10% it's still too much abuse, damage, hatred and terror.
That's one subject I stayed away from. I could never trivialize the horrible conditions and treatment those people received and I could certainly never make jokes or dismiss the lives lost because of it.
quote:I do think it's telling that part of vee pee pee's agenda was to push propaganda that had absolutely nothing to do with the Bible and helping people understand it or live better lives.
I think it's telling that Biblical research isn't the only thing he plagarized and claimed to be from his own brain. Which brings us back to his motives and intentions with starting TWI.
Thanks, Belle.
Another point, if I may.......through the years, I started looking at this book The Thirteenth Tribe as a piece of research with "shock value." VP wanted to interject new "research" into the learning adventure of the advanced class.....much in the same way that vp used Bullinger's work on the four crucified with Jesus.
Sorta like......"pulling the rug out from underneath one's previous foundation"
SEE, you young whipper-snappers have ALOT TO LEARN!!.......as vpw sat at the teacher's desk in front of the advanced class students.
I agree with the Hammer...Vic was always trying to promote his antisemitic views through any source that seemed to back him up...maybe he was trying to justify the "heritage" of his own people and their treatment of the Jews.
Thanks for rerunning the "Liberty Lobby" stuff. I hadn't caught that the first time around, and it certainly fills in a few details.
How does the LL still garner any support after so many failed "Head for the hills!" directives? I guess being right isn't all that important for those that embrace those sort of notions, eh?
quote: Oldies, the thoughts and opinions Jews have regarding who Jesus was vary greatly. Have you ever discussed this topic with any Jews? If so how many? Ever researched what the Jewish view is regarding Jesus? If so how thoroughly.
Abigail, I get your point, thank you. But I was referring to the folks who believe the Messiah hasn't arrived yet. I know there are Jews for Jesus too. I have had discussions about Christ with Jews, with little believing in Jesus on the part of the ones I spoke with. No matter. But a person who is still waiting for the Messiah must also assume that Jesus was either delusional, a liar, or both. Not a very flattering view. One can only hope that these folks will believe Jesus is the Messiah at the White Throne Judgement, when he's up there, and they're down there.
Wordwolf, to answer your questions, why yes, yes I do.
George - thanks. While on staff at HQ, as an avid reader, I had found a great book at a bookstore on the subject of these groups - it was an eyeopener. It was about these groups in general and how the government was going after them - a lot was in there on the Liberty Lobby. I started putting it together on staff. That's when I casually asked my friend who worked with him and in the home if she had ever heard of Liberty Lobby. She said sure, VP gets his tapes and has the hotline he calls. I casually thanked her and thought, now I get it...
Oldies, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
I know, we went around this before, we both disagree. We probably always will.
"But a person who is still waiting for the Messiah must also assume that Jesus was either delusional, a liar, or both. Not a very flattering view"
No, its not a very flattering view of how you think, Oldies. There are alternatives outside those you listed. However, it require a little less narrow mindedness on your part to see that.
"One can only hope that these folks will believe Jesus is the Messiah at the White Throne Judgement, when he's up there, and they're down there."
I can't help but wonder if the thought that people who believe differently than you do might have an equal standing/status/love from and for God doesn't scare the hell out of you. Perhaps it leaves you feeling a little less unique and special.
If one holds to the view that the historic Jesus was misrepresented by those who came to revere him, it would be easy to acknowledge him as a great rabbi without thinking him lunatic, liar, legend or lord.
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shazdancer
I agree, Jonny. Wierwille used the Advanced Class as the class to begin to introduce his supposedly superior knowledge about how the world really works. Conspiracies, devil spirit possessions, and "seed boys" lurking around every corner.
I think he embraced "the Thirteenth Tribe," whether he read it all or not, because it sounded like a more scholarly base for his bigotry than "Myth of the Six Million," which he also espoused.
I agree with Abi and Hope. Proselytes or DNA-pure, Jews are Jews because of their beliefs. I read most of "Tribe," and my reaction was, "so what?" And the verse completely ignored by Wierwille, "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance." Jews continue to be God's chosen people, and if Romans is true, they will be judged by the Law. Gentiles will be judged by the law that they are unto themselves, and Christians will be judged according to their faith in Jesus Christ.
God is so much bigger (and more just) than the little box Wierwille wanted to put Him into.
Regards,
Shaz
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Sunesis
I've posted this before, but will do so in condensed form.
Why did VP have this stuff? Because he was a member of the Liberty Lobby, which also printed a magazine called the Spotlight.
The Liberty Lobby is an organization based in Washington D.C. that is a political "front" for White Supremist groups. It is the "respectable" political umbrella for these various white supremist organizations.
7th corps, remember our "secret constitution" that was passed out to us? I still have it. Right on the inside back cover is an order form to subscribe to the Spotlight and membership in the Liberty Lobby.
All his advanced class tapes regarding the Illuminati, Trilateral Commission, etc. - the "heavy" stuff that was taught, were tapes that came from the Liberty Lobby.
VP also had a "hotline" number he could call with all the latest conspiracy updates. This came straight from someone who worked closely with him. Remember Malpack? Head for the hills? We must stand or our country is going to fall? All this was brought to you courtesy of the Liberty Lobby. VP then taught it and acted like it was his revelation.
Remember the Jim Jones suicides, how it was really done by the government, etc.? Thank you Liberty Lobby!
Remember when Wheaties Box and Olympic star Bob Richards came to speak to us at corps week one year? Gee, he was the Populist Party (they are the political arm of the Liberty Lobby) presidential candidate that year - what a coincidence he would take time out of his busy schecule to talk to us and schmooze with VP.
Those of you who have those books, one of them, the Myth of the 6 million, or 13th Tribe is only published by the Liberty Lobby's bookstore.
VP was a white supremist, but it was not something he spoke about in public. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble. Research the Liberty Lobby.
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WordWolf
You don't mean to suggest that
Wierwille ripped off some other people's work and claimed it was revelation,
do you?
You don't mean to suggest that
Wierwille didn't have the brains to recognize a conspiracy theory when it came up and bit him in the sit-upon,
do you?
You don't mean to suggest that
virtually all of wierwille's claims of divine revelation were completely bogus, and just made to smokescreen the sources he plagiarized,
do you?
=====
If you don't,
then I do, at any rate.
"You don't see it? Too bad-I do!"-
lcm, in his wap feeble attempt to explain art and the Original Sin.
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oldiesman
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excathedra
did you read sunesis's post ?
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oldiesman
But I still don't get it. One can believe Jesus is a bastard child, an imposter, not the Messiah, totally reject him, and still be saved? Gee, that sure IS a departure from PFAL...
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oldiesman
We went over this several months back. Willis Carto the founder of Liberty Lobby was represented by lawyer Mark Lane in the famous "Hunt v. Liberty Lobby" case. Mr. Lane, an accomplished Jewish lawyer who wrote a few books about the JFK assassination, had some pretty nice things to say about Carto.
So who should we believe, Sunesis who didn't know Carto from Adam, or Mr. Lane?
I will be happy to re-type what Lane wrote about Carto if anyone cares...
Besides, I don't need to know anything about Carto to know VP wasn't a White Supremist. Such nonsense.
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Steve Lortz
oldiesman - How do you explain Wierwille's lie in PFAL about the content of Romans 9:4?
Love,
Steve
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Tom Strange
IMO whether or not VP was a White Supremist is waaaaaay down on the list of ... you know... "stuff"
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Abigail
"One can believe Jesus is a bastard child, an imposter, not the Messiah, totally reject him, and still be saved? Gee, that sure IS a departure from PFAL..."
Oldies, the thoughts and opinions Jews have regarding who Jesus was vary greatly. Have you ever discussed this topic with any Jews? If so how many? Ever researched what the Jewish view is regarding Jesus? If so how thoroughly.
While you are correct, many Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, there are likewise many, many Jews who do believe he was a great Rabbi and see much value in his teachings.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
wkat about that other book that was recommended?? cann't remember the name but something about no jews being slaughtered during the war??anyone remember that one?
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excathedra
the myth of the 6 million ?
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Steve!
Am I mistaken, or is Arthur Koestler the author of both books?
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Belle
OM, that's just one point we'll have to agree to disagree on.
;)-->
I do think it's telling that part of vee pee pee's agenda was to push propaganda that had absolutely nothing to do with the Bible and helping people understand it or live better lives.
I think it's telling that Biblical research isn't the only thing he plagarized and claimed to be from his own brain. Which brings us back to his motives and intentions with starting TWI.
I never believed the myth of the six million. I had learned too much from family, WWII vets, Jews and guest speakers at my local college growing up to ever believe the holocaust wasn't true. And even if they exaggerated the numbers by 10% it's still too much abuse, damage, hatred and terror.
That's one subject I stayed away from. I could never trivialize the horrible conditions and treatment those people received and I could certainly never make jokes or dismiss the lives lost because of it.
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Ham
My opinion of The Thirteenth Tribe is that it provides rationalization for old prejudices, this time, with more of a scholarly, intellectual demeanor.
That may or may not have not been the author's intent, but was the effect it had. "see, they are not really Jews. Now we have proof.." ha.
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skyrider
Thanks, Belle.
Another point, if I may.......through the years, I started looking at this book The Thirteenth Tribe as a piece of research with "shock value." VP wanted to interject new "research" into the learning adventure of the advanced class.....much in the same way that vp used Bullinger's work on the four crucified with Jesus.
Sorta like......"pulling the rug out from underneath one's previous foundation"
SEE, you young whipper-snappers have ALOT TO LEARN!!.......as vpw sat at the teacher's desk in front of the advanced class students.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I agree with the Hammer...Vic was always trying to promote his antisemitic views through any source that seemed to back him up...maybe he was trying to justify the "heritage" of his own people and their treatment of the Jews.
If the truth be known, Vic was a borderline nazi.
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oldiesman
Love,
oldiesman
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George Aar
Sunesis,
Thanks for rerunning the "Liberty Lobby" stuff. I hadn't caught that the first time around, and it certainly fills in a few details.
How does the LL still garner any support after so many failed "Head for the hills!" directives? I guess being right isn't all that important for those that embrace those sort of notions, eh?
Just look at the JWs...
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oldiesman
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Sunesis
Wordwolf, to answer your questions, why yes, yes I do.
George - thanks. While on staff at HQ, as an avid reader, I had found a great book at a bookstore on the subject of these groups - it was an eyeopener. It was about these groups in general and how the government was going after them - a lot was in there on the Liberty Lobby. I started putting it together on staff. That's when I casually asked my friend who worked with him and in the home if she had ever heard of Liberty Lobby. She said sure, VP gets his tapes and has the hotline he calls. I casually thanked her and thought, now I get it...
Oldies, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
I know, we went around this before, we both disagree. We probably always will.
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Abigail
"But a person who is still waiting for the Messiah must also assume that Jesus was either delusional, a liar, or both. Not a very flattering view"
No, its not a very flattering view of how you think, Oldies. There are alternatives outside those you listed. However, it require a little less narrow mindedness on your part to see that.
"One can only hope that these folks will believe Jesus is the Messiah at the White Throne Judgement, when he's up there, and they're down there."
I can't help but wonder if the thought that people who believe differently than you do might have an equal standing/status/love from and for God doesn't scare the hell out of you. Perhaps it leaves you feeling a little less unique and special.
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oldiesman
This is God's Plan, not mine.
John 14:6Link to comment
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Raf
Oldiesman,
If one holds to the view that the historic Jesus was misrepresented by those who came to revere him, it would be easy to acknowledge him as a great rabbi without thinking him lunatic, liar, legend or lord.
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