quote: I was once reproved for showing up FIFTEEN minutes early instead of ten. Idiot BC stood at the door with an annoyed look on his face; later told us that coming early was disruptive to them. It didn't help when I pointed out that Twig Leader guidelines said that the home that was hosting fellowship should be ready an hour ahead of time.
Abi and Oak, this happened when I was on a class crew once. Some of the students, with their NEW STUDENTS in tow, were made to stand OUTSIDE in the blistering heat until the wc bc decided they could come in. He was peeved that they showed up too early. And they wonder why people don't stick around... -->
I hurts to read this stuff! Yet there was a smidgeon of this when I was on the field in 1979 just before I went in rez. But it was the first time I'd ever seen anything like this after had been "in" since 1975.
I had invited this beautiful and sophisticated black woman to our twig up in Oregon. I actually had met her going door to door, and to my amazement, she let me in, poured her heart out about a close friend who had died, and was thrilled about the timing of my "knock on her door" and with the stuff from the Bible that I read her that night I met her.
She came to three or four twigs, brought her handsome little four year old boy (who always wore a little suit!), and just loved it and us. I had always been intimidated by beautiful women who dressed very nicely, and I just couldn't believe that she would even want to be around me. But, this was proof to me that God had something to do with her wanting to come over, cause it certainly wasn't me!
Well, one night, this certain Rev/Corps woman, the LC's wife came over to teach at our twig. And as usual, my new friend showed up with her little boy. The boy was normally quiet enough in twig, but while teaching, when Rev So and so asked some sort of rhetorical question like; "And why do you think God did this?" The little boy blurted out with glee; "Cause Jesus loves us!"
At that point this woman, looked at the mother of this little boy and said sharply; "You keep your little boy quiet when I'm teaching God's Word! Nobody interrupts God's Word when I'm teaching, just nobody!"
Well, if looks could kill, that rev woman would have died on the spot! That momma was so pi$$ed I could see the smoke coming out of her ears! Her eyes were like hot knives!I just stared at the floor. I didn't know what to do. This gal was signed up for the class and everything, and I loved this gal! Not in a romantic way, although I may have been a bit smitten, but, well, I was petrified, for I really cared about her. What this rev gal had done was completely contrary with anything I had ever seen or had been taught while I was in The Way. That wasn't God's love at all, and it did leave me very confused, because this gal was a Reverend, and you know how we were taught to think of them.
After the twig was over and it was coffee, cookies and smokes time, my friend took me aside and said; "Jonny", I love you, and I love your friends and I have loved this fellowship, and I really wanted to take that class. But If that woman is the branch leader of this city and her husband is the limb leader, and she is a Reverend, there is absolutely no way I can become involved in this ministry. I have never been so humiliated in my life!" She went on to say that she would attend the weekend New Years advance that we had planned down on the Oregon Coast, but that that would be the last thing that she would attend, because she had promised that she would dance with me at the "disco dance at the New Years Advance", and I was her friend.
And that was how it ended. She went to the advance and after that, I never saw her again. The Rev gal had explained to me why it had been so important to bark at her like that, so that we could keep the Word respected in our twigs or some such crapola. It still left me confused.
But that fall I did in fact proceed into the Tenth Corps. For to me, that incident was, and remained an isolated incident out "on the field" anyway...
Maybe so Oak, but I swear, I was never trained to act that way when I was in residence. It really does seem as if there was a new era in TWI after the first big purges after 1990.
These things that Belle posted, I do believe happened, but didn't these things show up after LCM went on his legalistic rampage after "he woke up from the fog years" or whatever?
I was encountering majorly anal, cruel, a--wipe interim corpes as early as 1981. I don`t think it had much to do with when LCM took the helm.
I figure that these folks were trained this way early on, but finally rose up in ranks to the point where they could commit hurt on a greater scale by early 90s.
I think that those who obtained the results desired by hard a--ed tactics were the ones rewarded.... at least that was how it appeared to me.
Those who were kind, who ministered to the people rather than cracked the whip in order to achieve the numbers, suffered the consequeces.
(((Radar))) You do not owe me an apology. The sad thing is, I will likely never hear it from those that do.
Here's the crazy thing, we had a region coordinator move here from Florida with quite a rep. I've heard a number of terrible stories and I don't discount them. But this same person and his wife were the two most supportive people I knew in TWI (at least in a leadership capacity) during my last five years in. They backed me up against my twig coordinators a number of times. Ironic eh?
Oakspear said, "With all due consideration to you GSers who were in the Way Corps. I believe that these people were doing just what they were trained to do."
I think you're right to a degree, Oak, but I have a slightly different take on it. I think the Corps people who acted like Nazis were too immature for the responsibilities they were given and, in their immaturity, copied the worst of the behavior they saw among their Corps "leadership." Why do I say that? Because lots of people went through the exact same training and didn't come out yelling and screaming and expecting people to jump when they spoke.
Another factor comes into play here, I think. Although the Way Corps was touted as leadership training for people who were "mature in the Word" and "called to be Corps," the truth was that most anyone could get in if they could get enough people to sponsor them or if they could raise their own tuition.
The alleged purpose of the Corps was to train people to serve, not to lord it over others. But more and more, as the Corps groups got bigger and bigger, lots of people went into the Corps who saw it as a rung up the ladder to the top-dog spots. The three-piece suit 'n briefcase set grew more predominant over time.
I agree with exsie. Some of the greatest people I've known were Corps--kind and tenderhearted and smart and talented--and some of the worst people I've known were Corps--ambitious and arrogant and in WAY over their heads. Likewise for the non-Corps folks--some great ones and some A#1 a-holes.
What I remember are the constant squealing on each other, turned in for an infraction that was not an infraction. Constant correction on just exactly how you said something. The constant scowl. The hateful phrase, "If you don't like it, you can leave!" Offenses taken at the drop of a pin. Condemned for not having enough money. Condemned for being sick one weekend. Just plain condemned. Condemned you were not Corpse.
I remember. I remember a lot of it. To be fair, the first thirteen or so Corps seemed okay to me. After that, all Hell broke loose.
Computer programming "old-timers" say that when you put garbage info into a computer you get garbage out.
I'm thinking the same goes for The Way Corps. If someone was an a$$hole coming in they more than likely came out that way. Good people coming in were more than likely good people coming out.
Linda Z & I got to observe several Corps groups come & go through HQ. There was often talk like, "My favorite group was _________." and Those _______ number, man, the whole lot of 'em seemed like jerks." Same coordinators, same program, different results.
While we're swapping nazi stories....
One of my favorite things I hated about Corps people was the one where new interim corps or new corps grads would come on staff as dept. or section coordinators. One time in particular, we were in a meeting and this new "leader" was riding sombody's rear about some "procedure."
Of course the one being ridden was standing for the common sense way to do it. The "leader" came back with, "The Staff Handbook says we should do it like this!" (a really inefficient and downright stupid way to proceed.) Hence the argument.
I chimed in and said, "We should do it (the common sense) that way." The leader went on this long diatribe about how God inspired the Staff Handbook was because it was written by such great people of God.
I said. "Oh. That doesn't matter."
"WHY!!" he came back, most indignantly, as if I were blaspheming from hell itself.
I went on to tell him that I was in the meeting when we wrote that part of the staff handbook. At the time, we weren't sure how we should set up this particular procedure, so we just "put something in that sorta made sense, like MAYBE." Cause the changes to the handbook were due & we had to have "something."
We knew that since we had never really done this particular thing on this scale, we'd have to alter the procedure once we did it for a while & found out what worked and what didn't.
PLUS. new corps leader dude was misinterpreting what actually WAS in the handbook. Everybody BUT new corps dude was rolling on the floor laughing!
quote:Condemned for not having enough money. Condemned for being sick one weekend. Just plain condemned. Condemned you were not Corpse.
dear eagle, i remember that too, but "condemned because i WAS corpse" and could not measure up.... trying to hold down a job, trying to make a marriage work, trying to run a branch, trying to get off all the weekends (a day before and day after) to set up and tear down etc. etc. i failed at every turn, and i shouldn't have failed.... i was CORPS goddangit
I agree, there were some people that should never have held leadership positions. Immature, socially inept, or just plain evil, some of them. Made me wonder, if The Way Corps was supposed to be such an elite group to get into, and its members were supposed to be so scrutinized during their apprentice year, then what were some of those people doing in the Corps to begin with, and why were they put in positions of authority?
Dear Johnny,
That quote from the branch leader at your fellowship came straight out of Wierwille's mouth. I recall him saying it, but in fairness, I'm sure he never mean it to be used to shut up a little boy who was answering the question asked!
But remember how people would copy VPW's sayings and mannerisms? Heck, even Don*i* F*g*t started sounding like VP up half an octave, right down to the laugh. I caught myself doing it when I was still in high school. Imagine people imitating VP or LCM or other clergy without regard to the situation, and I think you have the answer to what happened with a lot of Corps.
They just forgot to bring their brains to the training.
The Corps that I am mainly talking about were new ones who got in in the nineties.
Most of the Corps that I encountered in the nineties were either relatively new grads (20th, 21st etc) or top leaders. Several specifically told me that they were trained to "confront" and to "smoke out" weakness.
In my opinion, this topic completely falls into what is THE TWI1, 2 OR 3 category.
Not to UNDERPLAY or Emphasize in any way the early twi followers...it just became more controlling, more restrictive......MORE EVIL as twi became stronger.
To those of us that are victims of one sort or another......
THAT IS WHAT CHIROPRACTORS DO!!!!!! THEY OPEN UP THE NERVE PATHWAYS!
I know it's been covered before, but for those who weren't around last time we talked about it, there's much to be learned from The Stanford Prison Experiment. I won't go into details because the site explains it far better than I can. I think that there are a few parallels between the guards (abusive twi leadership) and the prisoners (abused followers).
I think the guards' situation points a lot to what The Way Corps had become for many: a clique that was more concerned with being right than with being human. Some are playing "good guards" in TWI to this day: hoping to affect change from within, but not risking too much, for fear of being disenfranchised.
Every corps, especially with the 6th, once the ranks swelled from a handful to the hundreds, had a few guys who were kind of picked, and were being "groomed" to be leaders. They were in every corps, we all knew who they were. To a young man, this can really swell the ego. Many of these people became top rated jerks.
But, most of the corps, those who would be twig leaders, those who were not picked - the vast majority, who had no aspirations to "top" leadership, were some of the finest people I have ever met. The majority were fine people. Those who were entranced with the dangling carrot, the brass ring, of eventually reaching "Rev." status, would do pretty much anything. Many of them put on quite an act.
I think it all came down to who was chosen, and who wanted the title "rev." bad enough. The Rev. carrot is very important, because that was the top, and that was what many young men strived for. I cannot tell you what an impetus that was for so many men - and they would do whatever it took to get it.
Also, after graduating from the 7th, I was on staff at Emporia. I got to watch the evolution of the corps program. By the time the 12th corps got there, I felt truly sorry for them and did everything in my power to make their lives easier.
But it was out on the field when the graduated 13th corps arrived. I was shocked. These were the corps who had been trained totally under LCM after VP died. The legalism and corps nazism really was true. I really could not comprehend what had happened.
One guy, I finally told him, stick your idiotic "reproof" where it don't shine, you have no idea what you're talking about, and I told him I wanted nothing to do with him anymore and would not help him - I was not going to church with him. I think 13th corps was a pivotal corps, as far as the nastiness really coming to the forefront - courtesy of LCM as he descended into his darkness. They simply reflected him.
To address several tidbits I've read in this thread...
1 - Mxgnelli was 18th corps
2 - Johnny Lingo... I was 18th corps, and we were specifically taught that our job was to confront evil (as spoon-fed to us by HQ). This started with the 17th corps and the paranoid attitude that was started with the reading of POP. I could spend days giving you examples, but here's one that sums it up: my first assignment as corps, I was told by my limb coordinator not to get too comfy with the local believers because they didn't need a friend, they needed strong, determined, no-bs leadership who could tell them what's what. HAH! Here we were, wet-behind-the-ears kids in our twenties, telling experienced, middle-aged parents and business owners what was what. (yes, we were idiots!)
3 - Eagle and Excathedra, you both have described my experience of the 90s exactly! Pressure, contantly changing standards that no human being could uphold, and the never-ending threat of getting chewed out for some slight infraction, all of which were multiplied if you were corps.
4- Everyone's descriptions of being reproved for being five minutes too early, fine minutes too late, bringing kids, not bringing kids, doing what you were told to do, not doing what you were not told to do... oh my GOSH... the memories! The sickening, sickening memories!!!
My fellowship coordinators seemed to get a big kick out of finding things my 5-6yr old kid did wrong... he didn't look them in the eye when they talked to him, he got distracted during the teaching, he didn't sing along with the songs, he fell asleep in fellowship, he snuggled against me too close (yup, I actually got reproved for letting my kid show me affection in fellowship!!!)And I saw them also reprove a newbie's child for answering a retorical question during a teaching. I just wanted to melt into the sofa.
4-HWC, you are exactly right... what the heck were we thinking for putting up with all of this!!??!
5- Apprentice Year: There was no training of any value and very little screening or evaluation during my apprentice year. They weeded out those who gave them too much trouble for one reason or another but other than that, if you showed up to the meetings and did the things you were assigned to do, and came up with the money, you were IN.
6- As for the theory that decent people going in were basically decent people coming out... yes and no. Many of the decent people going in LEFT and didn't graduate as corps. The rest of us decent people going in, stifled ourselves and did our best to conform to the current twi standards for leadership. And then we got on the field and were under the directives of our state leadership, so a lot depended on who that was... if they were mini-mogs you ended up doing things you would never have dreamt of doing pre-corps-training. And a lot of folks that seemed pretty decent to me during our training, well... Mxgnelli, Andersxn, Bxlchalk, Chxller...
I think Sunesis has it right... these men were "chosen" from the beginning and every one knew it. They were the twig and branch coords in-rez. The rest of us were just worker bees. How could it "not" impact their ego?
HighWay, what you said about the 18th corps really helped me a lot. We were "in" for a long time, starting in the early 70's. When we arrived at our final destination as TWI'ers, we were under the leadership of an 18th corp grad, who was a nightmare on wheels. The people we knew out there from before had changed, too. Screaming at their kids, my kid, calling the most wonderful man I've ever known weak and of no character. This 18th WC guy, however, copied the phrases, body language, and attitudes of his trainer to a T. It was sad. He and his wife may have been nice young people at one time, but they were trained to be hard and cold, unreasonable and demanding. The only people I've EVER had invite me to dinner, then expect me to bring the ingredients, prepare the meal for them, and clean up afterwards. And our child was NOT invited. He had already been M&A without a word to us.
And God says I have to forgive these nuts! Well, okay then. I'll do it with gritted teeth!
quote: But, most of the corps, those who would be twig leaders, those who were not picked - the vast majority, who had no aspirations to "top" leadership, were some of the finest people I have ever met. The majority were fine people. Those who were entranced with the dangling carrot, the brass ring, of eventually reaching "Rev." status, would do pretty much anything. Many of them put on quite an act.
Well, I have to agree with that. Yet, for myself, one who was ordained, I have to tell you with all honesty, that I never "reached for that carrot". The day I got an envelope from Craig inviting me to be ordained, I was shocked to the very core. My first thought was "Me?!" What have I ever done but run a couple of twigs here and there?" I sat on that wall where the mural of George Jess is and read and re-read that damned letter in a state of shock. But since I did believe that it was excathedra, from the throne of God, I figured I had better accept, for who was I to turn down an invitation from God? I mean if it was from Craig, then, it had to be of God. So, I went back to my motorhome with the letter in the back pocket of my blue jeans cut-offs (I refused to wear those "camping shorts" that all the LC's wore-I called them limb leader shorts) and got myself a beer and then handed the letter to my wife.
Of course she was very proud of me and all of that. And within a day or two I was ordained under that tent that almost collapsed in perhaps the most violent thunderstorm I have ever seen. Honestly, I think that God was in that thunderstorm. I think he was ....ed. That whole thing was like a very strange dream...
Johnny, I got involved in the early 90's. I would say the worst times in my area started with those who graduated in 93 and after. The wc in my area before then had been here forever, at least 5-8 years and they were a close knit family, but very kind to everyone, with the one exception I already mentioned.
I think, too, it was harder for the truly altruistic in resident wc to stay tender hearted as the years went on because the classes were so much smaller. You couldn't just blend into the background or avoid detection. Everyone was heavily scrutinized and held accountable to unrealistic standards. There just weren't enough people in the corps training for anyone to be able to "hide."
I know my ex was a stellar wc trainee until his last year, that's when he got some leadership who didn't like him for some reason. They started confiscating his phone records, acccusing him of awful b.s., berating him, destroying his self-esteem and even accusing him of being gay. He is NOT gay! You men know what that does to a straight man 's ego. He was so beaten down he couldn't fight back. He ended up getting kicked out and instead of getting mad and leaving, he went back home to try to figure out why he was such a failure and .... up. Then he started bending over backwards trying to please everyone in leadership positions. He went to such lengths to please them that he quit talking to his parents, siblings and other relatives.
I don't see how anyone with honest intentions can make it through the training these days without becoming corrupt since the classes are even smaller that the first corps classes were.
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excathedra
the cruelty of the corps program hurt me very much as a result i think i was kinder to others
alfakat
lesssee, watered garden, you were in Ft. Worth, right??? (I was in Albuquerque that same year) so I am thinkin' your wunnerful BC was a sewin' type o' gal, with a syrupy Southern accent and initials o
HCW
...It was. It DID happen A LOT. I'm thinking now that people being thrust into leadership roles they were not prepared for was more the norm than the exception. Even in "the old days" speak so fondly
Belle
Abi and Oak, this happened when I was on a class crew once. Some of the students, with their NEW STUDENTS in tow, were made to stand OUTSIDE in the blistering heat until the wc bc decided they could come in. He was peeved that they showed up too early. And they wonder why people don't stick around...
-->
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J0nny Ling0
I hurts to read this stuff! Yet there was a smidgeon of this when I was on the field in 1979 just before I went in rez. But it was the first time I'd ever seen anything like this after had been "in" since 1975.
I had invited this beautiful and sophisticated black woman to our twig up in Oregon. I actually had met her going door to door, and to my amazement, she let me in, poured her heart out about a close friend who had died, and was thrilled about the timing of my "knock on her door" and with the stuff from the Bible that I read her that night I met her.
She came to three or four twigs, brought her handsome little four year old boy (who always wore a little suit!), and just loved it and us. I had always been intimidated by beautiful women who dressed very nicely, and I just couldn't believe that she would even want to be around me. But, this was proof to me that God had something to do with her wanting to come over, cause it certainly wasn't me!
Well, one night, this certain Rev/Corps woman, the LC's wife came over to teach at our twig. And as usual, my new friend showed up with her little boy. The boy was normally quiet enough in twig, but while teaching, when Rev So and so asked some sort of rhetorical question like; "And why do you think God did this?" The little boy blurted out with glee; "Cause Jesus loves us!"
At that point this woman, looked at the mother of this little boy and said sharply; "You keep your little boy quiet when I'm teaching God's Word! Nobody interrupts God's Word when I'm teaching, just nobody!"
Well, if looks could kill, that rev woman would have died on the spot! That momma was so pi$$ed I could see the smoke coming out of her ears! Her eyes were like hot knives!I just stared at the floor. I didn't know what to do. This gal was signed up for the class and everything, and I loved this gal! Not in a romantic way, although I may have been a bit smitten, but, well, I was petrified, for I really cared about her. What this rev gal had done was completely contrary with anything I had ever seen or had been taught while I was in The Way. That wasn't God's love at all, and it did leave me very confused, because this gal was a Reverend, and you know how we were taught to think of them.
After the twig was over and it was coffee, cookies and smokes time, my friend took me aside and said; "Jonny", I love you, and I love your friends and I have loved this fellowship, and I really wanted to take that class. But If that woman is the branch leader of this city and her husband is the limb leader, and she is a Reverend, there is absolutely no way I can become involved in this ministry. I have never been so humiliated in my life!" She went on to say that she would attend the weekend New Years advance that we had planned down on the Oregon Coast, but that that would be the last thing that she would attend, because she had promised that she would dance with me at the "disco dance at the New Years Advance", and I was her friend.
And that was how it ended. She went to the advance and after that, I never saw her again. The Rev gal had explained to me why it had been so important to bark at her like that, so that we could keep the Word respected in our twigs or some such crapola. It still left me confused.
But that fall I did in fact proceed into the Tenth Corps. For to me, that incident was, and remained an isolated incident out "on the field" anyway...
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Oakspear
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J0nny Ling0
Maybe so Oak, but I swear, I was never trained to act that way when I was in residence. It really does seem as if there was a new era in TWI after the first big purges after 1990.
These things that Belle posted, I do believe happened, but didn't these things show up after LCM went on his legalistic rampage after "he woke up from the fog years" or whatever?
What year was that Belle?
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Jim
This is starting to sound like the movie "A Few Good Men". Did you order a code red?
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excathedra
ha Jim !
there were some great "corps grads" in my area and some a$$holes and there were some great "noncorps grads" in my areas and some a$$sholes
but i imagine overall the people who personally trained in a round-the-clock environment had the majority of a$$holes
what you look at you become
:)-->
sometimes, that is
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rascal
I was encountering majorly anal, cruel, a--wipe interim corpes as early as 1981. I don`t think it had much to do with when LCM took the helm.
I figure that these folks were trained this way early on, but finally rose up in ranks to the point where they could commit hurt on a greater scale by early 90s.
I think that those who obtained the results desired by hard a--ed tactics were the ones rewarded.... at least that was how it appeared to me.
Those who were kind, who ministered to the people rather than cracked the whip in order to achieve the numbers, suffered the consequeces.
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Abigail
(((Radar))) You do not owe me an apology. The sad thing is, I will likely never hear it from those that do.
Here's the crazy thing, we had a region coordinator move here from Florida with quite a rep. I've heard a number of terrible stories and I don't discount them. But this same person and his wife were the two most supportive people I knew in TWI (at least in a leadership capacity) during my last five years in. They backed me up against my twig coordinators a number of times. Ironic eh?
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Linda Z
Oakspear said, "With all due consideration to you GSers who were in the Way Corps. I believe that these people were doing just what they were trained to do."
I think you're right to a degree, Oak, but I have a slightly different take on it. I think the Corps people who acted like Nazis were too immature for the responsibilities they were given and, in their immaturity, copied the worst of the behavior they saw among their Corps "leadership." Why do I say that? Because lots of people went through the exact same training and didn't come out yelling and screaming and expecting people to jump when they spoke.
Another factor comes into play here, I think. Although the Way Corps was touted as leadership training for people who were "mature in the Word" and "called to be Corps," the truth was that most anyone could get in if they could get enough people to sponsor them or if they could raise their own tuition.
The alleged purpose of the Corps was to train people to serve, not to lord it over others. But more and more, as the Corps groups got bigger and bigger, lots of people went into the Corps who saw it as a rung up the ladder to the top-dog spots. The three-piece suit 'n briefcase set grew more predominant over time.
I agree with exsie. Some of the greatest people I've known were Corps--kind and tenderhearted and smart and talented--and some of the worst people I've known were Corps--ambitious and arrogant and in WAY over their heads. Likewise for the non-Corps folks--some great ones and some A#1 a-holes.
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Eagle
What I remember are the constant squealing on each other, turned in for an infraction that was not an infraction. Constant correction on just exactly how you said something. The constant scowl. The hateful phrase, "If you don't like it, you can leave!" Offenses taken at the drop of a pin. Condemned for not having enough money. Condemned for being sick one weekend. Just plain condemned. Condemned you were not Corpse.
I remember. I remember a lot of it. To be fair, the first thirteen or so Corps seemed okay to me. After that, all Hell broke loose.
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skyrider
The 17th corps were inresidence at the time of cgeer's poop paper......
And, lcm repeatedly said that these 17th corps were at a major crossroads. If they stood strong with lcm, the corps program would survive.
From what I vaguely remember, Mxgnelli and Ruppx were 17th corps. Interesting to see where these guys are now......
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HCW
I'm thinking kinda like the old computer term:
"GIGO."
"Garbage In - Garbage Out."
Computer programming "old-timers" say that when you put garbage info into a computer you get garbage out.
I'm thinking the same goes for The Way Corps. If someone was an a$$hole coming in they more than likely came out that way. Good people coming in were more than likely good people coming out.
Linda Z & I got to observe several Corps groups come & go through HQ. There was often talk like, "My favorite group was _________." and Those _______ number, man, the whole lot of 'em seemed like jerks." Same coordinators, same program, different results.
While we're swapping nazi stories....
One of my favorite things I hated about Corps people was the one where new interim corps or new corps grads would come on staff as dept. or section coordinators. One time in particular, we were in a meeting and this new "leader" was riding sombody's rear about some "procedure."
Of course the one being ridden was standing for the common sense way to do it. The "leader" came back with, "The Staff Handbook says we should do it like this!" (a really inefficient and downright stupid way to proceed.) Hence the argument.
I chimed in and said, "We should do it (the common sense) that way." The leader went on this long diatribe about how God inspired the Staff Handbook was because it was written by such great people of God.
I said. "Oh. That doesn't matter."
"WHY!!" he came back, most indignantly, as if I were blaspheming from hell itself.
I went on to tell him that I was in the meeting when we wrote that part of the staff handbook. At the time, we weren't sure how we should set up this particular procedure, so we just "put something in that sorta made sense, like MAYBE." Cause the changes to the handbook were due & we had to have "something."
We knew that since we had never really done this particular thing on this scale, we'd have to alter the procedure once we did it for a while & found out what worked and what didn't.
PLUS. new corps leader dude was misinterpreting what actually WAS in the handbook. Everybody BUT new corps dude was rolling on the floor laughing!
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excathedra
it hurt
i did not transfer that hurt onto others....
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shazdancer
Dear Linda,
I agree, there were some people that should never have held leadership positions. Immature, socially inept, or just plain evil, some of them. Made me wonder, if The Way Corps was supposed to be such an elite group to get into, and its members were supposed to be so scrutinized during their apprentice year, then what were some of those people doing in the Corps to begin with, and why were they put in positions of authority?
Dear Johnny,
That quote from the branch leader at your fellowship came straight out of Wierwille's mouth. I recall him saying it, but in fairness, I'm sure he never mean it to be used to shut up a little boy who was answering the question asked!
But remember how people would copy VPW's sayings and mannerisms? Heck, even Don*i* F*g*t started sounding like VP up half an octave, right down to the laugh. I caught myself doing it when I was still in high school. Imagine people imitating VP or LCM or other clergy without regard to the situation, and I think you have the answer to what happened with a lot of Corps.
They just forgot to bring their brains to the training.
Regards,
Shaz
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Oakspear
Jonny Lingo & Linda Z:
The Corps that I am mainly talking about were new ones who got in in the nineties.
Most of the Corps that I encountered in the nineties were either relatively new grads (20th, 21st etc) or top leaders. Several specifically told me that they were trained to "confront" and to "smoke out" weakness.
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Radar OReilly
Oak, Linda, et all......
In my opinion, this topic completely falls into what is THE TWI1, 2 OR 3 category.
Not to UNDERPLAY or Emphasize in any way the early twi followers...it just became more controlling, more restrictive......MORE EVIL as twi became stronger.
To those of us that are victims of one sort or another......
THAT IS WHAT CHIROPRACTORS DO!!!!!! THEY OPEN UP THE NERVE PATHWAYS!
ROR
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Jim
I know it's been covered before, but for those who weren't around last time we talked about it, there's much to be learned from The Stanford Prison Experiment. I won't go into details because the site explains it far better than I can. I think that there are a few parallels between the guards (abusive twi leadership) and the prisoners (abused followers).
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WordWolf
*reads the link*
Hm.
I wasnt part of the last discussion, but I see some useful information
here. Thanks a lot for the link-it's rather illuminating.
I thought it was going to relate more directly to "Stockholm Syndrome."
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shazdancer
Thanks, Jim.
I think the guards' situation points a lot to what The Way Corps had become for many: a clique that was more concerned with being right than with being human. Some are playing "good guards" in TWI to this day: hoping to affect change from within, but not risking too much, for fear of being disenfranchised.
Regards,
Shaz
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Sunesis
Every corps, especially with the 6th, once the ranks swelled from a handful to the hundreds, had a few guys who were kind of picked, and were being "groomed" to be leaders. They were in every corps, we all knew who they were. To a young man, this can really swell the ego. Many of these people became top rated jerks.
But, most of the corps, those who would be twig leaders, those who were not picked - the vast majority, who had no aspirations to "top" leadership, were some of the finest people I have ever met. The majority were fine people. Those who were entranced with the dangling carrot, the brass ring, of eventually reaching "Rev." status, would do pretty much anything. Many of them put on quite an act.
I think it all came down to who was chosen, and who wanted the title "rev." bad enough. The Rev. carrot is very important, because that was the top, and that was what many young men strived for. I cannot tell you what an impetus that was for so many men - and they would do whatever it took to get it.
Also, after graduating from the 7th, I was on staff at Emporia. I got to watch the evolution of the corps program. By the time the 12th corps got there, I felt truly sorry for them and did everything in my power to make their lives easier.
But it was out on the field when the graduated 13th corps arrived. I was shocked. These were the corps who had been trained totally under LCM after VP died. The legalism and corps nazism really was true. I really could not comprehend what had happened.
One guy, I finally told him, stick your idiotic "reproof" where it don't shine, you have no idea what you're talking about, and I told him I wanted nothing to do with him anymore and would not help him - I was not going to church with him. I think 13th corps was a pivotal corps, as far as the nastiness really coming to the forefront - courtesy of LCM as he descended into his darkness. They simply reflected him.
Just my 2 cents.
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TheHighWay
To address several tidbits I've read in this thread...
1 - Mxgnelli was 18th corps
2 - Johnny Lingo... I was 18th corps, and we were specifically taught that our job was to confront evil (as spoon-fed to us by HQ). This started with the 17th corps and the paranoid attitude that was started with the reading of POP. I could spend days giving you examples, but here's one that sums it up: my first assignment as corps, I was told by my limb coordinator not to get too comfy with the local believers because they didn't need a friend, they needed strong, determined, no-bs leadership who could tell them what's what. HAH! Here we were, wet-behind-the-ears kids in our twenties, telling experienced, middle-aged parents and business owners what was what. (yes, we were idiots!)
3 - Eagle and Excathedra, you both have described my experience of the 90s exactly! Pressure, contantly changing standards that no human being could uphold, and the never-ending threat of getting chewed out for some slight infraction, all of which were multiplied if you were corps.
4- Everyone's descriptions of being reproved for being five minutes too early, fine minutes too late, bringing kids, not bringing kids, doing what you were told to do, not doing what you were not told to do... oh my GOSH... the memories! The sickening, sickening memories!!!
My fellowship coordinators seemed to get a big kick out of finding things my 5-6yr old kid did wrong... he didn't look them in the eye when they talked to him, he got distracted during the teaching, he didn't sing along with the songs, he fell asleep in fellowship, he snuggled against me too close (yup, I actually got reproved for letting my kid show me affection in fellowship!!!)And I saw them also reprove a newbie's child for answering a retorical question during a teaching. I just wanted to melt into the sofa.
4-HWC, you are exactly right... what the heck were we thinking for putting up with all of this!!??!
5- Apprentice Year: There was no training of any value and very little screening or evaluation during my apprentice year. They weeded out those who gave them too much trouble for one reason or another but other than that, if you showed up to the meetings and did the things you were assigned to do, and came up with the money, you were IN.
6- As for the theory that decent people going in were basically decent people coming out... yes and no. Many of the decent people going in LEFT and didn't graduate as corps. The rest of us decent people going in, stifled ourselves and did our best to conform to the current twi standards for leadership. And then we got on the field and were under the directives of our state leadership, so a lot depended on who that was... if they were mini-mogs you ended up doing things you would never have dreamt of doing pre-corps-training. And a lot of folks that seemed pretty decent to me during our training, well... Mxgnelli, Andersxn, Bxlchalk, Chxller...
I think Sunesis has it right... these men were "chosen" from the beginning and every one knew it. They were the twig and branch coords in-rez. The rest of us were just worker bees. How could it "not" impact their ego?
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Watered Garden
HighWay, what you said about the 18th corps really helped me a lot. We were "in" for a long time, starting in the early 70's. When we arrived at our final destination as TWI'ers, we were under the leadership of an 18th corp grad, who was a nightmare on wheels. The people we knew out there from before had changed, too. Screaming at their kids, my kid, calling the most wonderful man I've ever known weak and of no character. This 18th WC guy, however, copied the phrases, body language, and attitudes of his trainer to a T. It was sad. He and his wife may have been nice young people at one time, but they were trained to be hard and cold, unreasonable and demanding. The only people I've EVER had invite me to dinner, then expect me to bring the ingredients, prepare the meal for them, and clean up afterwards. And our child was NOT invited. He had already been M&A without a word to us.
And God says I have to forgive these nuts! Well, okay then. I'll do it with gritted teeth!
WG
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J0nny Ling0
Sunesis said:
Well, I have to agree with that. Yet, for myself, one who was ordained, I have to tell you with all honesty, that I never "reached for that carrot". The day I got an envelope from Craig inviting me to be ordained, I was shocked to the very core. My first thought was "Me?!" What have I ever done but run a couple of twigs here and there?" I sat on that wall where the mural of George Jess is and read and re-read that damned letter in a state of shock. But since I did believe that it was excathedra, from the throne of God, I figured I had better accept, for who was I to turn down an invitation from God? I mean if it was from Craig, then, it had to be of God. So, I went back to my motorhome with the letter in the back pocket of my blue jeans cut-offs (I refused to wear those "camping shorts" that all the LC's wore-I called them limb leader shorts) and got myself a beer
and then handed the letter to my wife.
Of course she was very proud of me and all of that. And within a day or two I was ordained under that tent that almost collapsed in perhaps the most violent thunderstorm I have ever seen. Honestly, I think that God was in that thunderstorm. I think he was ....ed. That whole thing was like a very strange dream...
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Belle
Johnny, I got involved in the early 90's. I would say the worst times in my area started with those who graduated in 93 and after. The wc in my area before then had been here forever, at least 5-8 years and they were a close knit family, but very kind to everyone, with the one exception I already mentioned.
I think, too, it was harder for the truly altruistic in resident wc to stay tender hearted as the years went on because the classes were so much smaller. You couldn't just blend into the background or avoid detection. Everyone was heavily scrutinized and held accountable to unrealistic standards. There just weren't enough people in the corps training for anyone to be able to "hide."
I know my ex was a stellar wc trainee until his last year, that's when he got some leadership who didn't like him for some reason. They started confiscating his phone records, acccusing him of awful b.s., berating him, destroying his self-esteem and even accusing him of being gay.
He is NOT gay! You men know what that does to a straight man 's ego. He was so beaten down he couldn't fight back. He ended up getting kicked out and instead of getting mad and leaving, he went back home to try to figure out why he was such a failure and .... up. Then he started bending over backwards trying to please everyone in leadership positions. He went to such lengths to please them that he quit talking to his parents, siblings and other relatives.
I don't see how anyone with honest intentions can make it through the training these days without becoming corrupt since the classes are even smaller that the first corps classes were.
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