I was going to mention the hookshot and also the fact that Vic claimed Ray Croc stole the idea for McDonalds from him.
If I sell you a product that I claim cures headaches and arthritis, and I give you made up testimonials as proof, and the product really only reduces headaches and does nothing for arthritis, I am a grifter. That's what Vic was. An ounce of truth in a pound of crap. And he knew dam well he was doing it. He was alot of things but stupid wasn't one of them.
"What is it that he taught that he didn't believe?"
God will meet your needs and sex falls under the category of need. The minister must minister to your needs.
When it comes to unbelievers, give em the 4 F's. Find em,feel em, f em, forget em.
While we're on the subject of "claims to fame".....vpw envisioned a double-decker interstate highway system throughout the U.S. and sent his idea to the department of transportation (or wherever). They never even sent back a response.
Imagine the magnitude of traffic gridlocks when accidents occur. Imagine the ridiculous taskforce that would be needed to detour traffic. Imagine the HUGE highway repair costs. Imagine the cost when infrastructure is damaged or worn or collapsed by earthquakes, etc.
from a particularly immature Corp person many years ago. Didn't think of it till now.
Wierwille wrote an entire teaching on the Book of "Revelation" - he never went public with it, but locked it in a safe (!)
Somehow or other - it must have been the Deevil - some bible teacher on the west coast got "wind" of this teaching, and was teaching the same exact thing.
I believe that he believed it at the very first. By that I mean when he was studying to be a minister, his early church days and the early days of the Mitch Miller Caravan Singers:D--> I don't get the impression that being a preacher man in small town Ohio was the best way to strike it rich.
I believe that as he started to gain more influence, he saw the opportunity for more influence and slowly started losing his integrity, and letting his ego run the show.
I doubt that he foresaw how big things would get when he stole Leonard's class and pushed it as his own in 1950-whatever. But things like this become a real slippery slope.
quote:oldies...how about Vics teaching on tithing...he never gave his "should sons do less than servants" teachings until the organization grew and he needed the money. In fact, it was a sharp departure from what he had previously been teaching...that's why many of the old timers left in the early sixies...
UncleHairy, I gave your question more thought last night. The conclusion I came up with is, I actually think VPW may have written "Christians Believe The Preposterous" in part so that TWI, the ministry, the organization, would be in a position to have "carloads of money" and resources. I tend to have this opinion do to the writings right in CSPB talking about "a tithing church is a prosperous church" and all that. He puts the family farm in twi's name and now everything, all the wealth he generates, goes to TWI. He wants it to prosper.
The question now becomes why did he do it? Some say he did it to fulfill his own lust for power and money. But I still think he did it to move the Word. I think he wanted twi to have abundant resources so that the Word would move better and faster. Purchasing more and more facilities means more and more real estate to inhabit more and more Christians to train and teach more and more people.
The fact that those oldtimers of the '60s left when they did could have been their own suspicions and evil thoughts about VPW doing it out of his own lust, greed and power. It's possible.
I could be wrong, I'm not God and certainly don't know everything that went thru his mind; but I prefer to think good thoughts about VPW in this category until I have definitive proof otherwise.
"I could be wrong, I'm not God and certainly don't know everything that went thru his mind; but I prefer to think good thoughts about VPW in this category until I have definitive proof otherwise."
Same here only the opposite. I prefer, in fact have no choice but to think bad thoughts about Vic until I have definitive proof otherwise. ANd that would require erasing my memory of horrible personal experiences.
"I believe that he believed it at the very first."
Oh I believe he believed alot of his teachings. But I also believe he lied to back up his claims and make his ministry grow. Grifter.
quote:If I sell you a product that I claim cures headaches and arthritis, and I give you made up testimonials as proof, and the product really only reduces headaches and does nothing for arthritis, I am a grifter. That's what Vic was. An ounce of truth in a pound of crap. And he knew dam well he was doing it. He was alot of things but stupid wasn't one of them.
And that's why his intent, I believe, was for everyone to try the product and decide for themselves if it was useful to themselves. If it wasn't useful, all one had to do was open the door, and leave. Interesting that lots of folks stayed for so long.
I suppose you're in a different boat Georgio, in that you didn't ask to be around and were born into it. You have a reasonable excuse since you couldn't just get up and leave. I'm sorry you have all sour memories and not many decent ones. The ministry wasn't a blessing for folks like you, I suppose.
quote: I suppose you're in a different boat Georgio, in that you didn't ask to be around and were born into it. You have a reasonable excuse since you couldn't just get up and leave. I'm sorry you have all sour memories and not many decent ones. The ministry wasn't a blessing for folks like you, I suppose.
OM, that's probably the most logical thing I think I've heard from you. :)-->
quote: And that's why his intent, I believe, was for everyone to try the product and decide for themselves if it was useful to themselves. If it wasn't useful, all one had to do was open the door, and leave. Interesting that lots of folks stayed for so long.
It IS interesting and this has been rehashed many times in threads about what red flags did you ignore? What clued you in? Why did you stay? How much did you know before you left? What was the breaking point for your leaving? And it seems everyone has different levels of perception and knowledge of the corruption. Some of us are just slow. :)-->
I started feeling less and less normal and more and more pressure to perform. I quit feeling like I was living any sort of abundant life and got tired of always feeling like I was trying to walk uphill in quicksand while wearing 50 lb. army boots. I didn't know anything was going on at hq and had no clue about the plagarism, abuse, lies, cover ups, and just plan evil corruption of the ministry. I just knew I didn't feel good or right.
I did see the favoritism and verbal abuse the wc were dishing out and experienced first hand the problems associated with trying to step down from any responsibility in the ministry so as to have time for family and normal life duties. I experienced some harsh confrontations (not all were about me) and I experienced my husband's inability to stand up for me and what he knew was right. I saw him struggle in his mind, but fear of losing God's love paralyzed him. Since he sees God's love and protection as only being available "in the household", he will cow tow to leadership and believe whatever they say.
I showed him doctrinal errors and pointed out practical wrongs to him and he would dismiss me and treat me like I was stupid or stubborn. However, on several occasions, they changed and said exactly what I had been telling him. Then all of a sudden it was the most wonderful, crystal clear, intelligent thing he ever heard - and as if he had just heard it for the first time.
Despite all this, I spent years fighting for my marriage and hoping that my husband would grow to see that there is life outside the glass walls of TWI's zion. I did everything I could and it just got to be too hard and too tense between us. Finally, I gave in and we divorced. I'm out and he's still in. He has lost so much because of TWI and especially because of his fear of leaving TWI. Now I suppose his ego is entrenched in there since he has given up family, friends, me and is now really all alone in the world except for people he knows will not be his friend because their love is conditional upon his continuing to jump through hoops and following the company line.
I didn't mean to get so long-winded. I apologize. If you made it this far - thanks! :)-->
My point is that people stay for different reasons and, especially in the 90's, even if the product isn't useful it's not that easy to "just open the door and leave." And, if I'm getting rid of my headache but not my arthritis, I might be inclined to stay a little bit longer than I probably should. ;)-->
I guess things are easier for single folks like me. I could just get up and walk out when I wanted ... and I did, at various times during my twi stint. I hadn't been going to Twig for 6 months just before I took the Advanced Class in 1978, and that wasn't the only time I "tripped out".
I was able never to be a victim ... But I'm learning that it just wasn't that simple with some other folks...
I believe Jim Bakker was sincere and believed what he said in the beginning too. When he first went on local cable tv here in Charlotte, I don't think it was part of some grand scheme to bilk little old ladies out of their life savings.
But when he ended up on a network of over 100 stations and the money started rolling in at $500,000 a day at its height, it got away from him. He started awarding himself $4,000,000 "bonuses" and buying luxury condos in Florida and California.
When Richard Dortch, his second in command, was asked one time why they had dipped into the funds for personal use, he said, "Because there was nobody to tell us that we couldn't."
No accountability at all.
I think that's what happened to VP too. He got so caught up in being "the man of God for our time" and "our father in the word" that he thought he could do anything he wanted and there was nobody to tell him that he couldn't. That leads to abuse of all kinds.
This is just my opinion, but it seems that at some point the focus changed from just teaching the bible to marketing PFAL. The whole "if you want to know all the secrets, you have to take the class" junk that I heard all the time practically screams "grifter."
Personally, I think there might be a more reasonable case for VPW possibly being a grifter if you use "Christians Believe The Preposterous" as an example.
But PFAL was a bargain. No grifting there. Look at it this way: if you paid $75.00 for the class, and took the class 10 times, you paid $7.50 per class. A bargain! :)-->
quote:Personally, I think there might be a more reasonable case for VPW possibly being a grifter if you use "Christians Believe The Preposterous" as an example.
But PFAL was a bargain. No grifting there. Look at it this way: if you paid $75.00 for the class, and took the class 10 times, you paid $7.50 per class. A bargain!
And, Oldies......you REALLY should seriously think about going way corps. Twi needs your undying support.
75 bucks was the entry fee into the "hall of mirrors". Had to have at least 7 people to run a class too...That's $525.00 bucks that twi got for each class (on the average)...Let's see now...the class instructor worked for free, the class crew worked for free, the facility used was free, the refreshments were provided free...Hmmm, I'm trying to figure out what twi's "overhead" was for running a class. Oh yeah, they sent us some tapes that we had to return and gave everybody a stack of paperback books. Non-profit? No wonder they could afford to buy campuses all over God's creation...
Of course, as I "rightly divide" the 4 gospels and the life of Jesus...I see numerous accounts of how Jesus made a small fortune selling God's word to the masses...and that Paul, what a business man! I heard that he used to charge top dollar for a live teaching of Ephesians...
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Georgio Jessio
I was going to mention the hookshot and also the fact that Vic claimed Ray Croc stole the idea for McDonalds from him.
If I sell you a product that I claim cures headaches and arthritis, and I give you made up testimonials as proof, and the product really only reduces headaches and does nothing for arthritis, I am a grifter. That's what Vic was. An ounce of truth in a pound of crap. And he knew dam well he was doing it. He was alot of things but stupid wasn't one of them.
"What is it that he taught that he didn't believe?"
God will meet your needs and sex falls under the category of need. The minister must minister to your needs.
When it comes to unbelievers, give em the 4 F's. Find em,feel em, f em, forget em.
tithing.
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skyrider
While we're on the subject of "claims to fame".....vpw envisioned a double-decker interstate highway system throughout the U.S. and sent his idea to the department of transportation (or wherever). They never even sent back a response.
Imagine the magnitude of traffic gridlocks when accidents occur. Imagine the ridiculous taskforce that would be needed to detour traffic. Imagine the HUGE highway repair costs. Imagine the cost when infrastructure is damaged or worn or collapsed by earthquakes, etc.
This idea never saw the light of day!
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TheEvan
He never claimed that "Croc" done stol it. He claimed that the Day-vull stole it cuz he mentioned it in the sayn-suz realm.
I guess the dayvull gave it to Ray.
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TheInvisibleDan
Okay, here's a weird rumor I recall hearing
from a particularly immature Corp person many years ago. Didn't think of it till now.
Wierwille wrote an entire teaching on the Book of "Revelation" - he never went public with it, but locked it in a safe (!)
Somehow or other - it must have been the Deevil - some bible teacher on the west coast got "wind" of this teaching, and was teaching the same exact thing.
God, why do I remember such stupid things...
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Oakspear
I believe that he believed it at the very first. By that I mean when he was studying to be a minister, his early church days and the early days of the Mitch Miller Caravan Singers
:D--> I don't get the impression that being a preacher man in small town Ohio was the best way to strike it rich.
I believe that as he started to gain more influence, he saw the opportunity for more influence and slowly started losing his integrity, and letting his ego run the show.
I doubt that he foresaw how big things would get when he stole Leonard's class and pushed it as his own in 1950-whatever. But things like this become a real slippery slope.
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oldiesman
The question now becomes why did he do it? Some say he did it to fulfill his own lust for power and money. But I still think he did it to move the Word. I think he wanted twi to have abundant resources so that the Word would move better and faster. Purchasing more and more facilities means more and more real estate to inhabit more and more Christians to train and teach more and more people.
The fact that those oldtimers of the '60s left when they did could have been their own suspicions and evil thoughts about VPW doing it out of his own lust, greed and power. It's possible.
I could be wrong, I'm not God and certainly don't know everything that went thru his mind; but I prefer to think good thoughts about VPW in this category until I have definitive proof otherwise.
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Georgio Jessio
"I could be wrong, I'm not God and certainly don't know everything that went thru his mind; but I prefer to think good thoughts about VPW in this category until I have definitive proof otherwise."
Same here only the opposite. I prefer, in fact have no choice but to think bad thoughts about Vic until I have definitive proof otherwise. ANd that would require erasing my memory of horrible personal experiences.
"I believe that he believed it at the very first."
Oh I believe he believed alot of his teachings. But I also believe he lied to back up his claims and make his ministry grow. Grifter.
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GrouchoMarxJr
oldies...I understand your position...but I am of the same mind as Georgio....grifter
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oldiesman
I suppose you're in a different boat Georgio, in that you didn't ask to be around and were born into it. You have a reasonable excuse since you couldn't just get up and leave. I'm sorry you have all sour memories and not many decent ones. The ministry wasn't a blessing for folks like you, I suppose.
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Belle
OM, that's probably the most logical thing I think I've heard from you.
:)-->
It IS interesting and this has been rehashed many times in threads about what red flags did you ignore? What clued you in? Why did you stay? How much did you know before you left? What was the breaking point for your leaving? And it seems everyone has different levels of perception and knowledge of the corruption. Some of us are just slow.
:)-->
I started feeling less and less normal and more and more pressure to perform. I quit feeling like I was living any sort of abundant life and got tired of always feeling like I was trying to walk uphill in quicksand while wearing 50 lb. army boots. I didn't know anything was going on at hq and had no clue about the plagarism, abuse, lies, cover ups, and just plan evil corruption of the ministry. I just knew I didn't feel good or right.
I did see the favoritism and verbal abuse the wc were dishing out and experienced first hand the problems associated with trying to step down from any responsibility in the ministry so as to have time for family and normal life duties. I experienced some harsh confrontations (not all were about me) and I experienced my husband's inability to stand up for me and what he knew was right. I saw him struggle in his mind, but fear of losing God's love paralyzed him. Since he sees God's love and protection as only being available "in the household", he will cow tow to leadership and believe whatever they say.
I showed him doctrinal errors and pointed out practical wrongs to him and he would dismiss me and treat me like I was stupid or stubborn. However, on several occasions, they changed and said exactly what I had been telling him. Then all of a sudden it was the most wonderful, crystal clear, intelligent thing he ever heard - and as if he had just heard it for the first time.
Despite all this, I spent years fighting for my marriage and hoping that my husband would grow to see that there is life outside the glass walls of TWI's zion. I did everything I could and it just got to be too hard and too tense between us. Finally, I gave in and we divorced. I'm out and he's still in. He has lost so much because of TWI and especially because of his fear of leaving TWI. Now I suppose his ego is entrenched in there since he has given up family, friends, me and is now really all alone in the world except for people he knows will not be his friend because their love is conditional upon his continuing to jump through hoops and following the company line.
I didn't mean to get so long-winded. I apologize. If you made it this far - thanks!
:)-->
My point is that people stay for different reasons and, especially in the 90's, even if the product isn't useful it's not that easy to "just open the door and leave." And, if I'm getting rid of my headache but not my arthritis, I might be inclined to stay a little bit longer than I probably should.
;)-->
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oldiesman
I guess things are easier for single folks like me. I could just get up and walk out when I wanted ... and I did, at various times during my twi stint. I hadn't been going to Twig for 6 months just before I took the Advanced Class in 1978, and that wasn't the only time I "tripped out".
I was able never to be a victim ... But I'm learning that it just wasn't that simple with some other folks...
Thanks for sharing.
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Pirate1974
I believe Jim Bakker was sincere and believed what he said in the beginning too. When he first went on local cable tv here in Charlotte, I don't think it was part of some grand scheme to bilk little old ladies out of their life savings.
But when he ended up on a network of over 100 stations and the money started rolling in at $500,000 a day at its height, it got away from him. He started awarding himself $4,000,000 "bonuses" and buying luxury condos in Florida and California.
When Richard Dortch, his second in command, was asked one time why they had dipped into the funds for personal use, he said, "Because there was nobody to tell us that we couldn't."
No accountability at all.
I think that's what happened to VP too. He got so caught up in being "the man of God for our time" and "our father in the word" that he thought he could do anything he wanted and there was nobody to tell him that he couldn't. That leads to abuse of all kinds.
This is just my opinion, but it seems that at some point the focus changed from just teaching the bible to marketing PFAL. The whole "if you want to know all the secrets, you have to take the class" junk that I heard all the time practically screams "grifter."
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oldiesman
Personally, I think there might be a more reasonable case for VPW possibly being a grifter if you use "Christians Believe The Preposterous" as an example.
But PFAL was a bargain. No grifting there. Look at it this way: if you paid $75.00 for the class, and took the class 10 times, you paid $7.50 per class. A bargain!
:)-->
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i loved vp and i believed him and i believe he believed himself until the empire started to grow.
then his ego got in the way{no pun intended}then it went to hell glad i got out!anyone take the advanced class in gunnison? what a horror show!
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skyrider
Oldies......you keep me laughing, thanks.
:D-->
And, Oldies......you REALLY should seriously think about going way corps. Twi needs your undying support.
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excathedra
who in their right mind would take it 10 times !!!!! ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Pirate1974
I would have liked to have paid just $75.00 to take the class.
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GrouchoMarxJr
75 bucks was the entry fee into the "hall of mirrors". Had to have at least 7 people to run a class too...That's $525.00 bucks that twi got for each class (on the average)...Let's see now...the class instructor worked for free, the class crew worked for free, the facility used was free, the refreshments were provided free...Hmmm, I'm trying to figure out what twi's "overhead" was for running a class. Oh yeah, they sent us some tapes that we had to return and gave everybody a stack of paperback books. Non-profit? No wonder they could afford to buy campuses all over God's creation...
Of course, as I "rightly divide" the 4 gospels and the life of Jesus...I see numerous accounts of how Jesus made a small fortune selling God's word to the masses...and that Paul, what a business man! I heard that he used to charge top dollar for a live teaching of Ephesians...
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George Aar
UH,
Don't forget the concessions! All the fishes and loaves musta made JC a fortune!
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alfakat
yeah, Geo, and he just grabbed em from that kid, too...probably gave the kid some line about Hebrews Should Be Prosperous....
and that's where vp got the idea, doncha know??
--> 
;)--> 
:P-->
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