I dunno, Mike, what would be so bad if TWI _were_ to apologize? They might show their followers that they are in fact fallible, and that they haven't mastered the revelation manifestations by a long shot. It would also preclude them from passing judgment on their innies at the drop of a hat, and usher in a whole new era of mutual love and respect.
I'm not holding my breath.
Regards,
Shaz
Shaz, one reason that they would not is because it would open up a huge can of worms for lawsuits happening.
Gawd forbid they have any more lawsuits! That would deplete the coffers and destroy any future of living high on the hog for them.
No, they will never admit they were wrong or did anything bad. And those who are full time staffers, especially those on the field who have done nothing but follow their orders for most of their lives, will continue to support and cover for them.
"...what would be so bad if TWI _were_ to apologize?"
"one reason that they would not is because it would open up a huge can of worms for lawsuits happening."
I agree entirely. As a corporation, to admit that they were guilty of wrong doing would open up every possible law suit. Not saying that they have money left to guard. Rather as a corporation to publically admit guilt is one step before shutting the doors and the auctioneer begins his bid taking.
Agreed, Vickles. Saying "I'm sorry" can be construed as a legal admission of guilt in a court of law. And TWI doesn't want to be in the business of making reparations, does it?
Nah, that would be too Christian a thing to do.
Funny that the group that claimed to walk by God's higher ways of love now hides behind their earthly lawyer's briefcase.
Vickles has added more weight to my argument calling for more tolerance and patience in our waiting on TWI's Apology Department for definitive pronouncements.
But it's been a while, so let me review a bit.
First of all, I too have to learn some forgiveness for those who hurt me deeply. I'm not saying to anyone here at GSC, "Snap out of it! Get busy and forgive those TWI leaders." I know first hand the daily struggle that can come when forgiving my enemies graduates from the printed page to real life. I have some work of my own in snuffing out fantasies of apologies being made to me that decimate the apologists.
Plus I can say that I can relate with both sides of this equation. I see multiple considerations delaying my own apology department from reaching out and touching someone in a few cases.
Far from TWI volume and intensity, the principles are the same for me as them. Not only being relatively few, my offenses were quite slight against these people in my past, prior to my "getting it right." YET I still have some difficulties with the timing and the situations available for my apologies to come immediately.
I can easily imagine TWI's difficulties being compounded to massive proportions due to intensity of the offenses and corresponding emotions, and then adding in impediments due to their need to shield their innocent children and new members.
Now Vickles has added in the lawsuit angle so the stakes are even higher still. Someone imagined this would mean total dismantling of the assets. As I think that scenario through, I ask how many relatively innocent people would be caught up and hurt there if apologies were dished out according to the demands of people here who claim their hurts are now in the past.
It's hard for me to imagine Jesus Christ, after his resurrection and recovery, to demand crippling reparations of Judas and Peter, saying "Ok, you guys, you want me to forgive you for treason and denial? Just step right inside this giant meat grinder and I'll throw the switch. When you come out the little holes at the other end then all will be forgiven."
Vanquishing to the end can be just as wrong as the original injury. Plus it sets up the cycle of repeat revenge, like the treaty of Versailles set the stage for Hitler's rise to power.
We need not trust history books' treatment of events of nearly a century ago. We've actually seen this cycle with our very eyes as Chris Geer did the meat grinder routine on Craig, Howard, and Don. What eventually followed was very Hitleresque.
TWI's reaction to Geer was to very tightly encircle the wagons, along with many internal offenses. Sure, those offenses were huge, but at least we can see why the wagons were circled, and it's not too much of a stretch to understand why they still are. But I do see the insular tension there is less that it was ten years ago, and less than it was two years ago. In the past year I've seen several significant developments to encourage my continued patience.
***
Another point, going back to the POP years. Craig, Howard, and Don had given an oral apology of sorts, then a written apology by signing the POP, ant then a series of reparations in handing over power and installing Geer men as BOTs. And what was given to them in return? Geer & Co. kept shoving them into the meat grinder EVEN AFTER the BOT did all that!!! There's got to be an institutional memory of that scene which holds back apologies with an intense grip!
I think demanding TWI compliance to a grueling performance for what some want as comparatively mild closure is walking away from the love that Jesus Christ showed to Judas and Peter, as well as all of us. As we call to mind what God has and continues to forgive in us, He can then teach, show, and empower us in how to rise up and love our enemies, and our spiritual family even more.
*comparativly mild closure* sheeshe what an abysmal lack of understanding you have concerning the depths of the pain and enormity of the evil practiced....what a foolish statement.
It is about holding twi to the standard of the word, not to mention just plain decency.
Being unwilling to apologise, or even acknowledge the hurt inflicted and damage wrought, only goes to show just how far leadership in twi STILL have their heads wedged up their bu tts....
Shoot, were they to have an honest change of heart...make an attempt to become Godly, they would fall on their knees and beg forgivness for the betrayal of those placed in their trust and safekeeping....and legal consequences be damned, your heart would move you to do the right thing....regardless.
You trying to make it easy on em mike, will never help ....because without repentance and asking for it....our forgivness means precisely squat.....
What you ask is unbiblical mike.....God requires us to repent and ask before forgivness is granted...never before...and why?
Just another thought. What makes you think they WANT your forgiveness? That is the LAST thing in the world that they think they need. You are a copout, a stain in their otherwise "perfect" existence. Forgive them? They could care less.
Trying to forgive that bunch of idiots is like trying to force feed a starving bastard who thinks he does not need food.
quote:Just another thought. What makes you think they WANT your forgiveness? That is the LAST thing in the world that they think you need. You are a copout, a stain in their otherwise "perfect" existence.
Yeah, H...........what they WANT......is NO MORE LAWSUITS.
Twi wants to distance themselves from lcm's avalanche of atrocities.....and find another scenic route to their banking destination.
I feel more sorry for the kids than for them. The kids are along for the ride with the idiots. Don't have a choice in the matter. Someday, they may find out. You're stuck to your kids like they are stuck to you. You're gonna have some real "splainen" to do. Could always just take the low road, and mark and avoid. Others have.
Just another thought. What makes you think they WANT your forgiveness? That is the LAST thing in the world that they think they need. You are a copout, a stain in their otherwise "perfect" existence. Forgive them? They could care less.
Trying to forgive that bunch of idiots is like
trying to force feed a starving bastard who thinks he does not need food.
I really feel that hammeroni really has it right. They don't feel that they need forgiveness because they don't really acknowledge that they have done wrong. They are far beyond that.
Mike, I totally understand where your coming from on this and I do agree from your standpoint. But, I don't agree that is where twi is coming from. These people are in it for the power and money. Not for Godliness or forgiveness. Beleive it or not these people can be nice at times if there is some profit in it. If not forget it.
I used to be very hurt and angry about what happened to me and waited for years for an apology. In fact one of the leaders that did me wrong left twi. I approached him and he acted like he didn't even know me. Although, while in twi he called me by name for 14 years.
I've worked out my anger and hurt by all this. I don't expect anything from them. And I have learned in life that if your hand gets bitten over and over again it is time not to put out that hand anymore.
After how many years have the same leaders been doing this and you want more?
If you think your efforts are worthwhile, by all means I wouldn't discouraging you from doing what's right.
It's just my opinion.. but here you have "Starvin Marvin" down to about 50 pounds laying in the middle of the road. But he's not starving. According to him, he's having the party of a lifetime. He has abundance galore! And anybody who is "somebody" needs to be just like him. And today, he decides that he is going to have a new and improved method of starvation for all of the followers. He resists any offer for a decent meal because you are the scum of the earth (supposedly). You feel sorry for him, but what can you do?
I think this is comparable to one of the parables, but instead, the guy that got caught up among the robbers beat the hell out the poor Samaritan that attempted to help him.
The ones I really have some compassion for are the ones that are on the ride, having no choice- the kids. And this guy will bite your leg off if you get near da kids. Maybe he won't bite your leg off today, just make sure you can't post anything on the website for his "kids".
I really do not think that they want, or even think that they need help. You talked about the twelve step program. I do not entirely remember it, but I think number one says you have to admit that you have a problem. Not one of the other steps will do any good until you do the first. Some poor souls never make it past step one. I imagine it is heart-rending for the families to watch a loved one go to the grave, but it does happen. And you can keep forgiving and justifying abusive or self abusive behavior until it has its final toll on an individual.
I am not God- it simply is not in my power to keep poor Marv alive. The choice really is his.
That is what I meant saying that if there was not real change there, the only rebuilding they are gonna see is after a bulldozer goes over the place. No change, its inevitable, in my opinion.
The Guest Book and Message board are down. The last thing they want is the free flow of ideas. There were some funny posts on the guest book about Craig being gone and "is it safe to come back to TWI". They were deleted and soon the whole board and guest book were yanked. Must be sad to require one to shelter one's self away from the world.
quote:I used to be very hurt and angry about what happened to me and waited for years for an apology. In fact one of the leaders that did me wrong left twi. I approached him and he acted like he didn't even know me. Although, while in twi he called me by name for 14 years.
The Guest Book and Message board are down. The last thing they want is the free flow of ideas. There were some funny posts on the guest book about Craig being gone and "is it safe to come back to TWI". They were deleted and soon the whole board and guest book were yanked. Must be sad to require one to shelter one's self away from the world.
Baptism by (internet) fire!! Heh heh
I still can't even get in there, and the more I think on it, the less I want to. The little that is/was being said there, far outweighs my desire to see what they are up to (these days).
The only discussion I really saw talked about (until GS showed up) was how blessed certain folks were at some *advance*. Geez --- do they still call them advances? -->
Even the blind leading the blind "advance" -- right into the ditch! :D-->
On one hand, maybe the site really is under construction and would have been whether GSers showed up or not.
But the timing is certainly such that a reasonable doubt has been generated.
One way or another, note the contrast between GS and Family Tables:
Despite being an anti-TWI site, pro-TWI people post here, as do pro-PFAL and pro-Wierwille people. Yeah, we pile on and beat on 'em, but they can say their piece.
On Family Tables there are strict limits to what you can post; nothing negative, nothing that raises questions about TWI, in other words, nothing but the ol' company line.
You gotta read the page on the Way of Abundance and Power class. It's the "successor" to the original PFAL class according to the writer and is tailored to current issues. I'm going to do a combo comment and quote from that site's page so I hope no one there gets their undies in a bunch.
Per the site's claims the WAP class is useful and "you don't need expensive counselors" with the class to teach you how to live one day at a time and get control of your life. Note to writer - that's like saying it will teach you how to breathe one breath at a time. It's the only way you can. Now I'm curious if any grads here can name some of the things in it that stand up to that claim.
And I have to quote this: "You don't need family counseling when you know how to build and maintain a strong family, daily winning the spiritual competition by defeating your personal adversary."
This is the kind of run on sentence that would make the WAP class teacher proud. The words could have been used to actually state why a person taking it won't "need family counseling". Saying that indicates it's part of the value.
Strangest of all is this statement: The class addresses such practical and current issues as the creation of the heavens versus the "big bang theory" and the cause of the ice age.
When did the creation of the heavens become a practical issue? Since when did the cause of the ice age become a practical issue? Or something that needs a new class to answer it? Is this one of the things that will help people not need family counselling, by putting a stop to all those fierce dinner time debates over the ice age? When most people say "practical" they think well, practical-duh, not pie-in-the-sky theological deal-breakers.
If this is the stuff that's the really good stuff from the WAP class, it sounds useless. Of course, once a person finds out how the Teacher was really living during the time he was preparing all this heavy material anyone in their right mind would have to question his ability to make clear useful judgements on family, moral or ethical issues. Ice Age stuff, go for it, knock yourself out Teach. But stay out of anything that might have to do with my wife or daughter.
Is this a copy/paste from a Way brochure, anyone know?
Last, the question of the day is asked: How can you not live a victorious life when you know your rights and privileges as God's son?
Easy. By sitting in an interminably boring and impractical class that's more concerned about the ice age than real, honest issues that real people that could use real help would like some help with.
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rascal
How much *brain storming* does it take to say *I am sorry, we were wrong*???
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vickles
Shaz, one reason that they would not is because it would open up a huge can of worms for lawsuits happening.
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Belle
Gawd forbid they have any more lawsuits! That would deplete the coffers and destroy any future of living high on the hog for them.
No, they will never admit they were wrong or did anything bad. And those who are full time staffers, especially those on the field who have done nothing but follow their orders for most of their lives, will continue to support and cover for them.
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Ham
That makes sense. It's the lawyers! I think they are sitting so tightly on their little nest egg that someday it may hatch.
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Ham
Extremely unlikely that ole Rosie does any sitting. "Harve, let that egg go cold and you're dead".
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Ham
"Quit worrying and come back to bed Donna. Harve is taking good care of "junior"".
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Galen
vickles:
"...what would be so bad if TWI _were_ to apologize?"
"one reason that they would not is because it would open up a huge can of worms for lawsuits happening."
I agree entirely. As a corporation, to admit that they were guilty of wrong doing would open up every possible law suit. Not saying that they have money left to guard. Rather as a corporation to publically admit guilt is one step before shutting the doors and the auctioneer begins his bid taking.
:-)
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shazdancer
Agreed, Vickles. Saying "I'm sorry" can be construed as a legal admission of guilt in a court of law. And TWI doesn't want to be in the business of making reparations, does it?
Nah, that would be too Christian a thing to do.
Funny that the group that claimed to walk by God's higher ways of love now hides behind their earthly lawyer's briefcase.
Oopsie me for noticing.
Shaz
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excathedra
website swebdange
the internet is run by the prince of the power of the air
they've just gotten sucked in like the rest of us
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Mike
Vickles has added more weight to my argument calling for more tolerance and patience in our waiting on TWI's Apology Department for definitive pronouncements.
But it's been a while, so let me review a bit.
First of all, I too have to learn some forgiveness for those who hurt me deeply. I'm not saying to anyone here at GSC, "Snap out of it! Get busy and forgive those TWI leaders." I know first hand the daily struggle that can come when forgiving my enemies graduates from the printed page to real life. I have some work of my own in snuffing out fantasies of apologies being made to me that decimate the apologists.
Plus I can say that I can relate with both sides of this equation. I see multiple considerations delaying my own apology department from reaching out and touching someone in a few cases.
Far from TWI volume and intensity, the principles are the same for me as them. Not only being relatively few, my offenses were quite slight against these people in my past, prior to my "getting it right." YET I still have some difficulties with the timing and the situations available for my apologies to come immediately.
I can easily imagine TWI's difficulties being compounded to massive proportions due to intensity of the offenses and corresponding emotions, and then adding in impediments due to their need to shield their innocent children and new members.
Now Vickles has added in the lawsuit angle so the stakes are even higher still. Someone imagined this would mean total dismantling of the assets. As I think that scenario through, I ask how many relatively innocent people would be caught up and hurt there if apologies were dished out according to the demands of people here who claim their hurts are now in the past.
It's hard for me to imagine Jesus Christ, after his resurrection and recovery, to demand crippling reparations of Judas and Peter, saying "Ok, you guys, you want me to forgive you for treason and denial? Just step right inside this giant meat grinder and I'll throw the switch. When you come out the little holes at the other end then all will be forgiven."
Vanquishing to the end can be just as wrong as the original injury. Plus it sets up the cycle of repeat revenge, like the treaty of Versailles set the stage for Hitler's rise to power.
We need not trust history books' treatment of events of nearly a century ago. We've actually seen this cycle with our very eyes as Chris Geer did the meat grinder routine on Craig, Howard, and Don. What eventually followed was very Hitleresque.
TWI's reaction to Geer was to very tightly encircle the wagons, along with many internal offenses. Sure, those offenses were huge, but at least we can see why the wagons were circled, and it's not too much of a stretch to understand why they still are. But I do see the insular tension there is less that it was ten years ago, and less than it was two years ago. In the past year I've seen several significant developments to encourage my continued patience.
***
Another point, going back to the POP years. Craig, Howard, and Don had given an oral apology of sorts, then a written apology by signing the POP, ant then a series of reparations in handing over power and installing Geer men as BOTs. And what was given to them in return? Geer & Co. kept shoving them into the meat grinder EVEN AFTER the BOT did all that!!! There's got to be an institutional memory of that scene which holds back apologies with an intense grip!
I think demanding TWI compliance to a grueling performance for what some want as comparatively mild closure is walking away from the love that Jesus Christ showed to Judas and Peter, as well as all of us. As we call to mind what God has and continues to forgive in us, He can then teach, show, and empower us in how to rise up and love our enemies, and our spiritual family even more.
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rascal
*comparativly mild closure* sheeshe what an abysmal lack of understanding you have concerning the depths of the pain and enormity of the evil practiced....what a foolish statement.
It is about holding twi to the standard of the word, not to mention just plain decency.
Being unwilling to apologise, or even acknowledge the hurt inflicted and damage wrought, only goes to show just how far leadership in twi STILL have their heads wedged up their bu tts....
Shoot, were they to have an honest change of heart...make an attempt to become Godly, they would fall on their knees and beg forgivness for the betrayal of those placed in their trust and safekeeping....and legal consequences be damned, your heart would move you to do the right thing....regardless.
You trying to make it easy on em mike, will never help ....because without repentance and asking for it....our forgivness means precisely squat.....
What you ask is unbiblical mike.....God requires us to repent and ask before forgivness is granted...never before...and why?
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Ham
Just another thought. What makes you think they WANT your forgiveness? That is the LAST thing in the world that they think they need. You are a copout, a stain in their otherwise "perfect" existence. Forgive them? They could care less.
Trying to forgive that bunch of idiots is like trying to force feed a starving bastard who thinks he does not need food.
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Ham
Kind of like trying to forgive Hitler. "But he was a nice guy, even kissed babies once". Ptooie.
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skyrider
Yeah, H...........what they WANT......is NO MORE LAWSUITS.
Twi wants to distance themselves from lcm's avalanche of atrocities.....and find another scenic route to their banking destination.
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Ham
But back to the subject.. I just checked again. The message board is STILL under construction. My opinion, they don't want "your kind" around.
They are scared absoulutely dangLESS that you might be able to have any kind of exchange with their kids.
Kinda like, "now kids, someday they will tell you that daddy did some horrible things. Do not believe them".
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Ham
I feel more sorry for the kids than for them. The kids are along for the ride with the idiots. Don't have a choice in the matter. Someday, they may find out. You're stuck to your kids like they are stuck to you. You're gonna have some real "splainen" to do. Could always just take the low road, and mark and avoid. Others have.
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vickles
I really feel that hammeroni really has it right. They don't feel that they need forgiveness because they don't really acknowledge that they have done wrong. They are far beyond that.
Mike, I totally understand where your coming from on this and I do agree from your standpoint. But, I don't agree that is where twi is coming from. These people are in it for the power and money. Not for Godliness or forgiveness. Beleive it or not these people can be nice at times if there is some profit in it. If not forget it.
I used to be very hurt and angry about what happened to me and waited for years for an apology. In fact one of the leaders that did me wrong left twi. I approached him and he acted like he didn't even know me. Although, while in twi he called me by name for 14 years.
I've worked out my anger and hurt by all this. I don't expect anything from them. And I have learned in life that if your hand gets bitten over and over again it is time not to put out that hand anymore.
After how many years have the same leaders been doing this and you want more?
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Ham
If you think your efforts are worthwhile, by all means I wouldn't discouraging you from doing what's right.
It's just my opinion.. but here you have "Starvin Marvin" down to about 50 pounds laying in the middle of the road. But he's not starving. According to him, he's having the party of a lifetime. He has abundance galore! And anybody who is "somebody" needs to be just like him. And today, he decides that he is going to have a new and improved method of starvation for all of the followers. He resists any offer for a decent meal because you are the scum of the earth (supposedly). You feel sorry for him, but what can you do?
I think this is comparable to one of the parables, but instead, the guy that got caught up among the robbers beat the hell out the poor Samaritan that attempted to help him.
The ones I really have some compassion for are the ones that are on the ride, having no choice- the kids. And this guy will bite your leg off if you get near da kids. Maybe he won't bite your leg off today, just make sure you can't post anything on the website for his "kids".
I really do not think that they want, or even think that they need help. You talked about the twelve step program. I do not entirely remember it, but I think number one says you have to admit that you have a problem. Not one of the other steps will do any good until you do the first. Some poor souls never make it past step one. I imagine it is heart-rending for the families to watch a loved one go to the grave, but it does happen. And you can keep forgiving and justifying abusive or self abusive behavior until it has its final toll on an individual.
I am not God- it simply is not in my power to keep poor Marv alive. The choice really is his.
That is what I meant saying that if there was not real change there, the only rebuilding they are gonna see is after a bulldozer goes over the place. No change, its inevitable, in my opinion.
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Georgio Jessio
The Guest Book and Message board are down. The last thing they want is the free flow of ideas. There were some funny posts on the guest book about Craig being gone and "is it safe to come back to TWI". They were deleted and soon the whole board and guest book were yanked. Must be sad to require one to shelter one's self away from the world.
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excathedra
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dmiller
Baptism by (internet) fire!! Heh heh
I still can't even get in there, and the more I think on it, the less I want to. The little that is/was being said there, far outweighs my desire to see what they are up to (these days).
The only discussion I really saw talked about (until GS showed up) was how blessed certain folks were at some *advance*. Geez --- do they still call them advances?
-->
Even the blind leading the blind "advance" -- right into the ditch!
:D--> 
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Oakspear
On one hand, maybe the site really is under construction and would have been whether GSers showed up or not.
But the timing is certainly such that a reasonable doubt has been generated.
One way or another, note the contrast between GS and Family Tables:
Despite being an anti-TWI site, pro-TWI people post here, as do pro-PFAL and pro-Wierwille people. Yeah, we pile on and beat on 'em, but they can say their piece.
On Family Tables there are strict limits to what you can post; nothing negative, nothing that raises questions about TWI, in other words, nothing but the ol' company line.
Gimme GS any day
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socks
You gotta read the page on the Way of Abundance and Power class. It's the "successor" to the original PFAL class according to the writer and is tailored to current issues. I'm going to do a combo comment and quote from that site's page so I hope no one there gets their undies in a bunch.
Per the site's claims the WAP class is useful and "you don't need expensive counselors" with the class to teach you how to live one day at a time and get control of your life. Note to writer - that's like saying it will teach you how to breathe one breath at a time. It's the only way you can. Now I'm curious if any grads here can name some of the things in it that stand up to that claim.
And I have to quote this: "You don't need family counseling when you know how to build and maintain a strong family, daily winning the spiritual competition by defeating your personal adversary."
This is the kind of run on sentence that would make the WAP class teacher proud. The words could have been used to actually state why a person taking it won't "need family counseling". Saying that indicates it's part of the value.
Strangest of all is this statement: The class addresses such practical and current issues as the creation of the heavens versus the "big bang theory" and the cause of the ice age.
When did the creation of the heavens become a practical issue? Since when did the cause of the ice age become a practical issue? Or something that needs a new class to answer it? Is this one of the things that will help people not need family counselling, by putting a stop to all those fierce dinner time debates over the ice age? When most people say "practical" they think well, practical-duh, not pie-in-the-sky theological deal-breakers.
If this is the stuff that's the really good stuff from the WAP class, it sounds useless. Of course, once a person finds out how the Teacher was really living during the time he was preparing all this heavy material anyone in their right mind would have to question his ability to make clear useful judgements on family, moral or ethical issues. Ice Age stuff, go for it, knock yourself out Teach. But stay out of anything that might have to do with my wife or daughter.
Is this a copy/paste from a Way brochure, anyone know?
Last, the question of the day is asked: How can you not live a victorious life when you know your rights and privileges as God's son?
Easy. By sitting in an interminably boring and impractical class that's more concerned about the ice age than real, honest issues that real people that could use real help would like some help with.
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igotout
Socks
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
You make me feel embarrased for them. I mean, your kids could probably write better, I'm sure.
Now lets discuss that Ice Age....
Yawn, Snore, zzzz,
Oh, you would have loved his discussion on the Pangea and how it happened almost overnight (instead of millions of years).
And Eve was such a dyke, we were taught! How did Adam live with her?
Quality biblical research! It was so boring and useless that my bible became dust covered while sitting there.
:D-->
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