My political beliefs are the same now as then. I am a little more conservative but that came with age and had nothing to do with twi.
Religiously is another story. Anytime I encounter a teaching that was anything close to twi I get nervous. I question everything that twi taught to the point that I have a hard time with some basic beliefs. Final comment is that there are some twi leaders that are going to face some tough things when they meet God.
Good question! Before da vey, my beliefs tended to side with the right. When I was old enough to vote, I too was a Reagan republican. After many years of counselling and support, I am now almost a normal human being (just kidding). I think involvement in da ministry encouraged a even more of an opinion leaning to the right. After leaving da vey, no longer do I blindly buy into any party line, democrat, republican or other.
Religious preference of the candidate is just about the last determining factor for who I support, at least now. I remind myself that besides the claims they make, they are still POLITICIANS- that the beliefs and persona that they display are carefully crafted to fit public opinion, and may or may not be a good indicator of their true character. Anybody can make a nice, logical convincing speech. Nice speeches and great claims are not worthy of trust, at least in my opinion.
In the recent elections, Bush did not recieve my support for at least two reasons.
1. His support for BPL, or broad-band over power lines. This agenda seemed to be one of his goals in life, obviously at the prompting of the electric companies. He strong armed an acceptance of this unproven technology through the FCC in spite the proven harmful interference to radio services, many times precluding such services altogether because of the extent of interference. This was documented by his own engineers. He chose to use all the muscle the executive branch had to push the acceptance of this second rate internet service through its final acceptance by the FCC, for commercial interests, in spite of its proven track record of producing harmful interference. He strong armed his own technical advisors in the NTIA to provide grounds to accept it. This spoke more to me about his character than anything else he could say. And the other republican candidates rubber stamped it.
I supported the republican candidate for the house of rep. I still think he was the best guy for the job.
2. Trade in China. Somehow this is the "solution" for America's economic woes. Still maintain grade one status for a country that utilizes slave labor. Can't have slavery here? Well then.. we can have it there. Unbelievable. What's "Christian" about that?
Like you, I do not bring these issues up to force an argument with anyone- this is just an example of how I think about things after leaving da ministry.
Recent teaching I heard in offshoot. "why the liberals are so biblically wrong, so devilish". Somehow, the conservative party line was the best hope for America. That one lost me from the get go. I would not bother trying to argue with it, person is obviously entitled to think as they wish. But to me, it looks like no common sense, no balance. But that was where I was at one time, enough fair speeches, and an apparent Christian belief was enough to win my support. No longer.
Was my change in opinion because of what I experienced in the ministry, the utter failure of those in leadership positions? Perhaps partly. One good thing I learned- people are not always what they seem to be.
Before my own departure from the Way: conservative Republican
After: liberal environmentalist/activist
Before: salted, committed, young, way disciple
After: open to many world beliefs, cannot put "God" in a box, not a fan of way splinters and western christianity
The truth is, the Way was never MY choice. Until i got out in the world, on my own, i finally was able to know who i was, and what i was about. The Way never felt right, it was always a battle to succumb to leaders who had no idea what i was about,....mostly puppets, weaklings, uneducated. True, there were some great people and great times, but few and far between. So, when i finally left (thank you greasepot and waydale), it was excellent to finally learn, grow, and live who i really was, finally free of the limited participation of life due to the shackles of Way dogma.
The Way is for people who like being told what to do, people who like having "answers" given to them that explains "everything". It is much easier to sit in fellowship, or a pew, and be told how to live life, than to look inside yourself and walk down that path of life on your own. No one knows you better than yourself, so how could someone in "leadership" know whats best for me? They never did. All they seemed to care about was attending fellowships, ABSing, showing up for another set-up, and spewing the salespitch to bring new people to something where the fire had been long gone.
To this day, i still cannot go into any detail about things, or people will recognize me. What kind of organization is this where people drop family members like they were nothing for speaking the truth??
Growing up, my family was Republican, so I was republican. My dad was a marine, my first real, true memory of my dad was when I was very young, not even in school yet. My dad was home from "Asia" and we sat at the dinner table and he explained the domino theory of communism to me, using the lazy susan, salt, pepper, napkin holder, etc.
From a child was a humanitarian.....I brought home every stray animal and human that crossed my path, beginning in kindergarten, but I still had that Republican upbringing. I can still remember the celebration party my parents and God-parents had when Ronald Reagan was elected govenor of California
I got into twi when I was 14, I was able to transfer my "humanitarian" Aquarius attributes to "winning people" to God (couch term for twi.) In 1976, I took the Blessings of Liberty class from Hayes Gehagen and from there, until I left twi 5 years ago....I was a good little wayfer and voted the Republican party line. While in residence they marched our butts next door to the church (next to Uncle Harry Hall) and voted straight Republican. Gunnison, same thing.....and definitely at Headquarters.
In the five years since I have left twi....I am beginning to find my own soul, my personal voice, and follow my heart. I vote how I want, for whom I want. It is amazing how becoming free of a cult even includes being able to make up our own minds in a presidential election
As far as Bush is concerned, I voted for him because I didn't want Kerry in the White House. Aside from that, I never want to see another Bush as long as I live. For a Christian president he sure lets a lot of Christian civil rights get attacked with never a word.
Hardly a Ronald Reagan.
But I am still basically Republican with a little bit of Democrat in me.
Along the lines as to how we politically see the world now. While in twi, we were taught that any financial contribution to any group outstide of twi was basically a donation to the devil.
The world was full of "designer" causes, Jerry's Kids, Breast Cancer, The ASPCA (association for prevention of cruelty against animals,) the homeless, the mentally ill (they are possessed dontcha know?) and on and on and on. I feel confident in saying that lcm would have ridiculed donating to the victims of the tsunami.
I have found my own true voice regarding contributing to the less fortunate. I follow my heart...and give without reservation to whatever organization I believe is worthy, for whatever reason I feel is worthy. Somehow.....I think God is on my side with this. ;)-->
Definitely a good question. I came from a union/democrat family of coal miners, construction workers and trainmen. My first real job was boxboy at Safeway where I was *required* to join the union and pay dues and get *zero* benefits. I've not been fond of unions and the liberal cause ever since. But that's me. The unions had a place with the coal miners, construction workers and trainmen. But not with me.
I resent that I must choose between /flaming liberalism/expensive social experiments/political correctness/Patriot Act/ *or* /questionable wars/billions for Boeing/GE/Halliburton/Standard Oil/Patriot Act/. I want us to try real hard to keep our hands off of other countries, work towards energy independence, stop corporate welfare, stop government employee welfare and defend personal freedoms.
Religion is a little more difficult. Of all the religious/ethic people I've met, I love Jews the best. But I can't be a Jew, at least not by birth. So I have a lot of Jewish friends and I'm glad they like me.
I still believe in Christianity. I don't go to church and I don't have a clue as to what's up with the Trinity. I don't often pray, but my wife says I should.
If there's anything in the world that convinces me of God and Christ, it's Bach's choral music. I know that must sound strange, but if I could have an hour with you I think I could show you what I mean. I've also been reading the writings of Martin Luther. Interesting stuff.
Political beliefs then: I was raised in a Democrat home back when the term "Liberal Democrat" meant that you were hawkish regarding war, and liberal (thus the term) at spending taxpayer dollars on just about anything. I grew up as a Conservative Democrat (doveish on war and conservative with taxpayer dollars).
Political beliefs today: Since the term "liberal Democrat" is now synonymous with Socialist/Communist/Marxist, and "Conservative" anything is synonymous with extreme right-wing/religious fanatic/facist, I can safely say that I am neither. I am also not a Democrat since 1976 when I first regestered as a Republican voter. I DO NOT vote, nor have I EVER voted, strict party line. I regard the individual and his/her presentation of their beliefs and their voting record (if they have one) before deciding for whom to vote. I am only registered as a Republican in order to vote in the primary elections.
Religious beliefs then: I was raised as a Roman Catholic. Pre-TWI, I had begun to search through other religious beliefs. I studied Buddhism and briefly studied Hinduism. I rejected all three and became an agnostic for a time. Post-TWI, I am a monotheist (I do not belive in the trinity or the alleged "deity" of Jesus Christ) Christian. I don't attend any church at this time and I am very weary of religious organizations in general.
Speaking of financial contributions outside of twi.
One day in new Knoxville, my corps grad, hq 'bless patrol' officer friend offered up the following statement regarding giving, which I remember word for word.
"There's nothing wrong with giving to charity, as long as it's a worthwhile one like the NRA, or the republican party."
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.
I was a middle of the road, non political person before the way. Got a snootful of the way's extreme right wing fervor, and bought into some of it, while keeping my mouth shut when I disagreed.
Am neither left or right now, and vote either party. Believe Bush and his regime is the most destructive in my lifetime, and at the moment feel like they should be hauled into court for the lies that got us into this nightmare in Iraq.
quote: Aside from that, I never want to see another Bush as long as I live.
I was raised Republican and have always voted Republican, even once I started evaluating the issues and getting more involved in politics. I tend to agree more with them than I do with other parties. That, and I can't effen stand the Clintons, Kerry or any of their other "prominent" representatives.
I'd rather see Jesse Ventura in office than any of those numbnuts.
Kind of the same here Belle, however. I tend to agree with a lot of the conservative line. Some things I have reservations. But Bush did some stuff that I thought we would be better off with a "blood sucking, card carrying" Liberal, heh heh..
People were saying how Kerry was so incompetent- and I would not argue with that. I thought maybe that's what we needed in office at the time, a little less competence. He may dream and scheme, but would't have the wherwithal to pull some stuff off like Bush..
I was basically non-political pre-twi, but probably would have said I was a Democrat. Post-twi, I find myself becoming more political, and more outraged with each passing day. George Bush thinks he has God's own vision burnt in a rock, and is leading his own personal Holy War to re-make the world in his own warped vision. Nothing more dangerous than someone in power who is convinced he is God's own MOGFOT...hmmm, what does that remind me of??
I find that my political views lean substantially left of center these days (of course I never could buy into twi's belief that God was a Republican, even as in innie). Never was comfortable with their gun-totin', homo-hating lunacy, and it really disturbs me that I went along with it for 12 miserable years. Didn't believe it, but didn't have the nerve to say so either...
Spiritually, I have thrown out the baby, the bath water, and am remodeling the bathroom too!
I believe there's a force in the universe (Caddyshack anyone?), and beyond that, I'll consider just about anything except organized religion of ANY sort, or anything that requires meetings, following the leader, or being "blessed" to do anything I don't feel like doing!
It is interesting to me seeing how many's views on both subjects have changed dramatically since leaving TWI. Was it a natural evolution or was it a reaction (a backlash, if you will) to no longer being bound by der Veg?
Not a dramatic change since leaving twi, just a return to thinking the way I thought before I joined der Veg cult (and the way I continued to think to some extent while I was in, but did not feel free to express it). Guess I was a liberal before, a closet liberal during, and even more liberal after twi. What has changed is that I pay much more attention to what is going on politically, and feel a much stronger sense of outrage regarding the growing fascism in America. Oops, I forgot...it's not facism when we're doing it.(www.oldamericancentury.org).
Prior to TWi I was a Democrat, from a liberal democrat family background. While in, I renewed my mind to TWI values, but in the back of my brain I always knew and understood why my family would think diferently. Now I am again a Democrat, don't have to filter myself through TWI thinking.
I left the Roman Catholic church as soon as I left home, and was agnostic but searching for a few years before I hitched up with the Way. I explored Bahai and some Eastern thought, which was all that was available in the small college town I lived in.
Since leaving the Way I've explored quite a bit outside of Christian doctrine and now call myself eclectic wiccan or pagan with wiccan tendancies. I'm not into joining a group.
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ex70sHouston
My political beliefs are the same now as then. I am a little more conservative but that came with age and had nothing to do with twi.
Religiously is another story. Anytime I encounter a teaching that was anything close to twi I get nervous. I question everything that twi taught to the point that I have a hard time with some basic beliefs. Final comment is that there are some twi leaders that are going to face some tough things when they meet God.
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Ham
Good question! Before da vey, my beliefs tended to side with the right. When I was old enough to vote, I too was a Reagan republican. After many years of counselling and support, I am now almost a normal human being (just kidding). I think involvement in da ministry encouraged a even more of an opinion leaning to the right. After leaving da vey, no longer do I blindly buy into any party line, democrat, republican or other.
Religious preference of the candidate is just about the last determining factor for who I support, at least now. I remind myself that besides the claims they make, they are still POLITICIANS- that the beliefs and persona that they display are carefully crafted to fit public opinion, and may or may not be a good indicator of their true character. Anybody can make a nice, logical convincing speech. Nice speeches and great claims are not worthy of trust, at least in my opinion.
In the recent elections, Bush did not recieve my support for at least two reasons.
1. His support for BPL, or broad-band over power lines. This agenda seemed to be one of his goals in life, obviously at the prompting of the electric companies. He strong armed an acceptance of this unproven technology through the FCC in spite the proven harmful interference to radio services, many times precluding such services altogether because of the extent of interference. This was documented by his own engineers. He chose to use all the muscle the executive branch had to push the acceptance of this second rate internet service through its final acceptance by the FCC, for commercial interests, in spite of its proven track record of producing harmful interference. He strong armed his own technical advisors in the NTIA to provide grounds to accept it. This spoke more to me about his character than anything else he could say. And the other republican candidates rubber stamped it.
I supported the republican candidate for the house of rep. I still think he was the best guy for the job.
2. Trade in China. Somehow this is the "solution" for America's economic woes. Still maintain grade one status for a country that utilizes slave labor. Can't have slavery here? Well then.. we can have it there. Unbelievable. What's "Christian" about that?
Like you, I do not bring these issues up to force an argument with anyone- this is just an example of how I think about things after leaving da ministry.
Recent teaching I heard in offshoot. "why the liberals are so biblically wrong, so devilish". Somehow, the conservative party line was the best hope for America. That one lost me from the get go. I would not bother trying to argue with it, person is obviously entitled to think as they wish. But to me, it looks like no common sense, no balance. But that was where I was at one time, enough fair speeches, and an apparent Christian belief was enough to win my support. No longer.
Was my change in opinion because of what I experienced in the ministry, the utter failure of those in leadership positions? Perhaps partly. One good thing I learned- people are not always what they seem to be.
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Galen
Mark:
"First: For those who now lean to the left side of the political spectrum, what was your political alignment (if any) BEFORE you got into TWI?"
I dont recall, sorry, it was too long ago.
"#2: I was a non-Church going Methodist before hand. From High School, I was a "seeker," exploring around with tons of different religions, ..."
I was a 'Baptist-church-member' turned 'non-church-attending-Methodist'. Then I too was actively 'seeking'.
:-)
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Thelema
Before my own departure from the Way: conservative Republican
After: liberal environmentalist/activist
Before: salted, committed, young, way disciple
After: open to many world beliefs, cannot put "God" in a box, not a fan of way splinters and western christianity
The truth is, the Way was never MY choice. Until i got out in the world, on my own, i finally was able to know who i was, and what i was about. The Way never felt right, it was always a battle to succumb to leaders who had no idea what i was about,....mostly puppets, weaklings, uneducated. True, there were some great people and great times, but few and far between. So, when i finally left (thank you greasepot and waydale), it was excellent to finally learn, grow, and live who i really was, finally free of the limited participation of life due to the shackles of Way dogma.
The Way is for people who like being told what to do, people who like having "answers" given to them that explains "everything". It is much easier to sit in fellowship, or a pew, and be told how to live life, than to look inside yourself and walk down that path of life on your own. No one knows you better than yourself, so how could someone in "leadership" know whats best for me? They never did. All they seemed to care about was attending fellowships, ABSing, showing up for another set-up, and spewing the salespitch to bring new people to something where the fire had been long gone.
To this day, i still cannot go into any detail about things, or people will recognize me. What kind of organization is this where people drop family members like they were nothing for speaking the truth??
Soon....
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Radar OReilly
Growing up, my family was Republican, so I was republican. My dad was a marine, my first real, true memory of my dad was when I was very young, not even in school yet. My dad was home from "Asia" and we sat at the dinner table and he explained the domino theory of communism to me, using the lazy susan, salt, pepper, napkin holder, etc.
From a child was a humanitarian.....I brought home every stray animal and human that crossed my path, beginning in kindergarten, but I still had that Republican upbringing. I can still remember the celebration party my parents and God-parents had when Ronald Reagan was elected govenor of California
I got into twi when I was 14, I was able to transfer my "humanitarian" Aquarius attributes to "winning people" to God (couch term for twi.) In 1976, I took the Blessings of Liberty class from Hayes Gehagen and from there, until I left twi 5 years ago....I was a good little wayfer and voted the Republican party line. While in residence they marched our butts next door to the church (next to Uncle Harry Hall) and voted straight Republican. Gunnison, same thing.....and definitely at Headquarters.
In the five years since I have left twi....I am beginning to find my own soul, my personal voice, and follow my heart. I vote how I want, for whom I want. It is amazing how becoming free of a cult even includes being able to make up our own minds in a presidential election
Radar
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Eagle
As far as Bush is concerned, I voted for him because I didn't want Kerry in the White House. Aside from that, I never want to see another Bush as long as I live. For a Christian president he sure lets a lot of Christian civil rights get attacked with never a word.
Hardly a Ronald Reagan.
But I am still basically Republican with a little bit of Democrat in me.
I think that means I am possessed by Ross Perot.
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Radar OReilly
Along the lines as to how we politically see the world now. While in twi, we were taught that any financial contribution to any group outstide of twi was basically a donation to the devil.
The world was full of "designer" causes, Jerry's Kids, Breast Cancer, The ASPCA (association for prevention of cruelty against animals,) the homeless, the mentally ill (they are possessed dontcha know?) and on and on and on. I feel confident in saying that lcm would have ridiculed donating to the victims of the tsunami.
I have found my own true voice regarding contributing to the less fortunate. I follow my heart...and give without reservation to whatever organization I believe is worthy, for whatever reason I feel is worthy. Somehow.....I think God is on my side with this.
;)-->
ror
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Jim
Definitely a good question. I came from a union/democrat family of coal miners, construction workers and trainmen. My first real job was boxboy at Safeway where I was *required* to join the union and pay dues and get *zero* benefits. I've not been fond of unions and the liberal cause ever since. But that's me. The unions had a place with the coal miners, construction workers and trainmen. But not with me.
I resent that I must choose between /flaming liberalism/expensive social experiments/political correctness/Patriot Act/ *or* /questionable wars/billions for Boeing/GE/Halliburton/Standard Oil/Patriot Act/. I want us to try real hard to keep our hands off of other countries, work towards energy independence, stop corporate welfare, stop government employee welfare and defend personal freedoms.
Religion is a little more difficult. Of all the religious/ethic people I've met, I love Jews the best. But I can't be a Jew, at least not by birth. So I have a lot of Jewish friends and I'm glad they like me.
I still believe in Christianity. I don't go to church and I don't have a clue as to what's up with the Trinity. I don't often pray, but my wife says I should.
If there's anything in the world that convinces me of God and Christ, it's Bach's choral music. I know that must sound strange, but if I could have an hour with you I think I could show you what I mean. I've also been reading the writings of Martin Luther. Interesting stuff.
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Steve Swenton
Political beliefs then: I was raised in a Democrat home back when the term "Liberal Democrat" meant that you were hawkish regarding war, and liberal (thus the term) at spending taxpayer dollars on just about anything. I grew up as a Conservative Democrat (doveish on war and conservative with taxpayer dollars).
Political beliefs today: Since the term "liberal Democrat" is now synonymous with Socialist/Communist/Marxist, and "Conservative" anything is synonymous with extreme right-wing/religious fanatic/facist, I can safely say that I am neither. I am also not a Democrat since 1976 when I first regestered as a Republican voter. I DO NOT vote, nor have I EVER voted, strict party line. I regard the individual and his/her presentation of their beliefs and their voting record (if they have one) before deciding for whom to vote. I am only registered as a Republican in order to vote in the primary elections.
Religious beliefs then: I was raised as a Roman Catholic. Pre-TWI, I had begun to search through other religious beliefs. I studied Buddhism and briefly studied Hinduism. I rejected all three and became an agnostic for a time. Post-TWI, I am a monotheist (I do not belive in the trinity or the alleged "deity" of Jesus Christ) Christian. I don't attend any church at this time and I am very weary of religious organizations in general.
You asked...
Steve.
¥
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hiway29
Speaking of financial contributions outside of twi.
One day in new Knoxville, my corps grad, hq 'bless patrol' officer friend offered up the following statement regarding giving, which I remember word for word.
"There's nothing wrong with giving to charity, as long as it's a worthwhile one like the NRA, or the republican party."
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.
I was a middle of the road, non political person before the way. Got a snootful of the way's extreme right wing fervor, and bought into some of it, while keeping my mouth shut when I disagreed.
Am neither left or right now, and vote either party. Believe Bush and his regime is the most destructive in my lifetime, and at the moment feel like they should be hauled into court for the lies that got us into this nightmare in Iraq.
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Belle
I was raised Republican and have always voted Republican, even once I started evaluating the issues and getting more involved in politics. I tend to agree more with them than I do with other parties. That, and I can't effen stand the Clintons, Kerry or any of their other "prominent" representatives.
I'd rather see Jesse Ventura in office than any of those numbnuts.
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Ham
Kind of the same here Belle, however. I tend to agree with a lot of the conservative line. Some things I have reservations. But Bush did some stuff that I thought we would be better off with a "blood sucking, card carrying" Liberal, heh heh..
People were saying how Kerry was so incompetent- and I would not argue with that. I thought maybe that's what we needed in office at the time, a little less competence. He may dream and scheme, but would't have the wherwithal to pull some stuff off like Bush..
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Jim
Sadly, I've known plenty of non-TWI people who would agree.
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Thelema
As Karl Marx said, "I am not a Marxist!"
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2fortheroad
I was basically non-political pre-twi, but probably would have said I was a Democrat. Post-twi, I find myself becoming more political, and more outraged with each passing day. George Bush thinks he has God's own vision burnt in a rock, and is leading his own personal Holy War to re-make the world in his own warped vision. Nothing more dangerous than someone in power who is convinced he is God's own MOGFOT...hmmm, what does that remind me of??
I find that my political views lean substantially left of center these days (of course I never could buy into twi's belief that God was a Republican, even as in innie). Never was comfortable with their gun-totin', homo-hating lunacy, and it really disturbs me that I went along with it for 12 miserable years. Didn't believe it, but didn't have the nerve to say so either...
Spiritually, I have thrown out the baby, the bath water, and am remodeling the bathroom too!
I believe there's a force in the universe (Caddyshack anyone?), and beyond that, I'll consider just about anything except organized religion of ANY sort, or anything that requires meetings, following the leader, or being "blessed" to do anything I don't feel like doing!
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markomalley
It is interesting to me seeing how many's views on both subjects have changed dramatically since leaving TWI. Was it a natural evolution or was it a reaction (a backlash, if you will) to no longer being bound by der Veg?
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2fortheroad
Not a dramatic change since leaving twi, just a return to thinking the way I thought before I joined der Veg cult (and the way I continued to think to some extent while I was in, but did not feel free to express it). Guess I was a liberal before, a closet liberal during, and even more liberal after twi. What has changed is that I pay much more attention to what is going on politically, and feel a much stronger sense of outrage regarding the growing fascism in America. Oops, I forgot...it's not facism when we're doing it.(www.oldamericancentury.org).
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TheInvisibleDan
The Jesus in "Luke" is a Democrat:
"Blessed are the poor...
Blessed are those who hunger..."
= actual poor folk, people who are actually hungry.
while the Jesus in "Matthew" might be regarded
a Republican:
"Blessed are the poor in spirit ...
blessed are those hungering for righteousness ...", = self-righteous religious folk, pious jerks seeking a spiritual snack.
Take your pick...
I prefer the Lukan version of Jesus
nowadays.
Danny
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Bramble
Prior to TWi I was a Democrat, from a liberal democrat family background. While in, I renewed my mind to TWI values, but in the back of my brain I always knew and understood why my family would think diferently. Now I am again a Democrat, don't have to filter myself through TWI thinking.
I left the Roman Catholic church as soon as I left home, and was agnostic but searching for a few years before I hitched up with the Way. I explored Bahai and some Eastern thought, which was all that was available in the small college town I lived in.
Since leaving the Way I've explored quite a bit outside of Christian doctrine and now call myself eclectic wiccan or pagan with wiccan tendancies. I'm not into joining a group.
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