HCW, I'm not here to debate your "side" or their "side"... but...
HCW says:
quote:I never said, nor did even I suggest, that the victim bore responsibility for the actions of the purpetrator.
....
If you go somewhere you are responsible for where you went. That doesn't mean you're responsible for what someone does TO you while you're there.
Really? maybe you didn't mean it that way... this written communication leaves a lot of room for misunderstanding...
HCW said:
quote:You say VP was all of these horribly negative things to you. OK. I accept that. But. What was it about YOU that you apparently didn't know it was wrong to .... a married man? A minister? You must love yourself enough to ask yourself the hard questions.
No twisting of words and no desire to fight... but...
If a person is not responsible for what someone does TO them while they are there, why would you then ask that question of them? See... I don't think people are laying in wait for you, I want to believe that your intentions are above board, I just think that the earlier statement came across as sort of callous... so did others... and they mentioned that they thought an apology was due, not a defense of what or why you said it... and then a simple suggestion of an apology turns into all this crap...
Read (or re-read) Rascal's post and maybe you'll understand why it appears to be a callous remark...
Some of those women have reported that they were drugged. Others have said that they resisted Wierwille when he made lewd advances. Many of them were kicked out of TWI and lies spread by Wierwille to prevent others from listening to them.
Many were in the RIGHT place at the right time, and horribly used.
I was alone in the motorcoach with Wierwille. Did he assault me? No. I was there because we were INVITED by the MOG to come aboard and ask him any questions we wanted. It never dawned on me that being alone with him was a risky thing to do.
Why was I not propositioned? I will never know. Not pretty enough, already married to a tough, tattooed New Yorker whose skills Wierwille sought? I dunno. But I know that many who have talked about being assaulted had a sexually-compromised past that was included in their "From Birth to the Corps" paper. My bio didn't have that. Wierwille was holding a binder the evening I talked to him.
Long after I left TWI, I was assaulted. By a supposed believer. At the time, I was doing exactly what I should have been doing.
Gee, if I step on someone's toe, even if I didn't mean to, I say I'm sorry. Your "what was it about YOU" remark was hurtful to some who have had the guts to come forward and tell their stories.
How long shall we suffer those who would blame the victim?
HCW, I really do enjoy your intellect and ability to lay words to print but you can have all the experiences in the world with VP and Craig but you can’t know what a man becomes behind a closed door. And you should pay especial attention to the words of Mark in respect to the authority and accountability of a clergy towards their care.
As far as women having the balls to come out with their accounts, some have balls not to.
HCW, regarding Jacob, I understand how it is you believe what you believe about people changing themselves. It's wound up in Way doctrine and makes perfect sense in that context. There's another school of thought, which I believe is better supported by scripture, that says the Holy Spirit changes a person as he/she yields to the Lord. It says we are incapable of changing ourselves (Can a leopard change his spots?). I understand both points of view and believe the truth, theologically, lies with both views together...
There's been thread after thread about personal responsibility, and how each person is responsible for his or her own actions.
That's true - up to a point.
In many documented cases, there's been coercion involved. If a woman was led to believe that if she didn't "bless" the MOG, that dire consequences would befall her and her family, she might do things she ordinarily wouldn't do.
Imagine person "A" holding a gun to the head of person "B" and saying, "Do this or die". Is person "B" accountable for his or her actions at this point? 50% accountable? 25% accountable?
You cannot accurately say that each individual is completely responsible for his or her own
actions when there is coercion involved.
If both parties involved were there completely of their own wills with no other influences then yes, you are right, each person is responsible for his/her own actions. But there was much more to it than that.
Been away for a few days.. wow hey this is a good thread :)-->
quote:Oh, one other thing for you Bible believer types out there in happy Bible land: It says holy men of God spake. Doesn't that disqualify Wierwille. Before you answer, carefully consider the works of the flesh listed in Gal. 5. Consider how many we know he indulged.
Evan, to the best of my knowledge, works of the flesh committed by a Christian doesn't disqualify same from walking by the spirit, when they do. If they did, then I suppose the good Christians who post here, some of whom continually engage in hatred, wrath and strife, would be disqualified as well.
VPW preached and taught the Word. Not everything was right on but boy he made an impact and taught the bible is truth, and instilled in us solid respect for that Word. Folks who hung around for years, were blessed with twi and proved by their lives and for themselves that TWI was a genuine ministry at one time. Ours (and VPW'S) good godly works were not in vain.
quote:I have definite problems with your categorization of Don Wierwille. You DID NOT know him better than I did, and regardless of anything recounted in threads such as "Uncle Howard's Mattress" or any memories you think you may have, I worked directly for him and other members of the Wierwille family. He was AS COMMITTED if NOT MORE committed to the Lord Jesus Christ than any other man that has EVER served on the TWI Trustees, BOD, etc.
I have enjoyed reading HCW's accounts and perceptions and experiences. I was starting to like the guy until he made the following statements:
quote: You say VP was all of these horribly negative things to you. OK. I accept that. But. What was it about YOU that you apparently didn't know it was wrong to .... a married man? A minister? You must love yourself enough to ask yourself the hard questions.
quote: All I'm saying is that just because VPW committed these heinous sins that doesn't negate any of the good he also did.
He's obviously a vpw worshipper who attributes his spiritual growth, healing and any miracles to vpw instead of God or his own belief.
He obviously has no compassion and is without natural affection and probably even blames his daughters with "allowing" men to abuse them - or at least holds them partially responsible for the devastating things they've had to endure.
It's also disgusting to me that someone puts vpw up on some pedestal when he didn't utter one word that was from his own work or study. The man plagarized, copied and imitated real men of God. His whole ministry was founded on lies and deception. He used the trust and love people had for him to ruin lives just so he could get a little pleasure. God did not excuse Eli's sons and I think anyone who excuses vpw and craig should face the same punishments God doles out to them.
Besides that he's not man enough to simply apologize when he's hurt many people and been told about it.
I'm not looking for any sort of fight either, but I wonder about a couple of things you said.
"If a person is not responsible for what someone does TO them while they are there, why would you then ask that question of them?"
HCW isn't asking that of anyone. He's saying that it is a question we must all ask ourselves. He's right, isn't he? Do we contribute to our own unhappiness? Maybe so. Maybe not. But the question needs to be asked if we want a way out of the misery.
"they mentioned that they thought an apology was due, not a defense of what or why you said it... and then a simple suggestion of an apology turns into all this crap..."
I can think of two occasions only recently where an apology was demanded of another poster because of "hurtful" remarks, but the repeated apologies weren't accepted, and it turned into "all this crap" anyway. Is the issue really an apology? HCW didn't mean what some of you are making it sound like he meant, so what is he apologizing for?
What is obvious to you isn't so obvious to me. I don't see evidence for your above claims: VPW worshipper; without compassion or "natural affection" (what is that?); an incompetant (even harmful) father. On the one hand, I do not know HCW. Never met him, never interacted with him here, there, or anywhere, so far as I know, so I can't speak to your accusations with any knowledge or history. But . . . are you getting all that from his posts here? I'm not. He told the story of his daughters as a way to identify with the victims; to demonstrate that he does understand; that he does care; that he wishes for better.
HCW is writing a narrative. It is not your narrative. It doesn't tell the story of your time in The Way. It tells the story of his sojourn there. I don't see where he is asking anyone else to adopt his experience or his conclusions. Right now he has 20 (twenty) posts to his credit. Long posts, for sure, but it doesn't rival the thousands from the people he is up against. What is the fight about? That's what I want to know.
Agreed. You bring up a most interesting point. My own "From Birth to The Corps" paper touched on my life's sexual history too.
As one who worked in Way Publications I wondered why nothing was ever done with those papers in terms of publishing a huge journal of testimonies of people's deliverance.
Sorry to disappoint any of you who may think I have VPW "stars in my eyes," but I think he used the binder you spoke of to create his hit list. You don't come across as "the type" one could get over on. People who do that stuff size up their victims, yea or nay, in an instant.
I have a post coming on the "apology" tip... pls stay tuned.
Evan. I plead rookie on the Non Profanity rule. Its generally not my practice to use it. Consider it toned....
Also, I think we're saying the same thing too. I look at it like the fellowlaborer with God thing. You do your part He does his part. To be clear, my point: God can't do it w/ our willing heart, THEN He changes you.
I usually jump that point because too many say, "I'll pray about it...." but do "nothing" in terms of effecting change.
(((((((((house))))))))))
been there, done that. my issue w/ Mark is not about the good stuff he said. I always listen....
quote:HCW is writing a narrative. It is not your narrative. It doesn't tell the story of your time in The Way. It tells the story of his sojourn there. I don't see where he is asking anyone else to adopt his experience or his conclusions. Right now he has 20 (twenty) posts to his credit. Long posts, for sure, but it doesn't rival the thousands from the people he is up against. What is the fight about? That's what I want to know.
Laleo, this is a good paragraph from you, thanks, and I believe this would also apply to those of us who still think a few good thoughts about VPW and TWI. Thanks.
My position on "Individual responsibility" is rooted in what I'll call the "reverse engineering" we ALL go through in the aftermath of traumatic events. The "if only's," if you will.
When my 9ry old sat on my lap detailing her story..."If only we hadn't sent her, we knew the guy's a drunken jerk" is what I and her Mom felt. "I shouldn't have________________." she thought. We said NO! HE did it TO you.
"If only________________...." fill in you blank.
Corecion, by deninition releases you from responsibility from what you're forced to do. Many types exist, including emotional. Clinton was impeached because as President, HE knew better. Whereas I believe Monica was a full, willing and even proactive participant; THE PRESIDENT was responsible for the events, the incursions, not Monica.
I'm making a distinction
When the pain is acute and the event just past. At times we feel, "If only I had___________ done the most extreme thing to completely avoid the actual event. I'd glady have done it (past tense).
"I could have: not answered the phone, told him go to hell and not went, etc." those thoughts severely trouble some.
Acknowledging one's level of culpability, I believe, acomplishes positive things.
1. It SOLIDIFIES, beyond anything, anyone may say that "it" was NOT your fault. EG; I went to the coach, HE drugged ME.
My 9yr old was overcome with guilt because she had hugged he father. Firmly establishing what she did was how we clarified for her that what she did didn't matter. We got nowhere with the healing until after that.
Sometimes people who are hurting can't see what they DIDN'T do until they take a good look at what they did do.
People have been arguing over written words for centuries. We're no different.
I understand completely why anyone might see "the remark" as callous.
It was callous. My heart IS hardened over this issue. I AM approaching it from an unemotional POV. Intentionally.
However. My "calliosity" ;)-->is certainly NOT directed at Rascal; or any other victim of any of these abuses, pre or post TWI, inside or outside TWI or any other organization in any country or culture in the world.
I am callous towards the ACT, the practice and most of I'm hardened against all the purpetrators, promulgators and activists who promote this hellacious thinking.
I did reread rascals post about 10 times. That is part of what I did after "the post" before my pre-post, post.
The context and subject of my remark was healing, noting GOD's ability and promise to work people's bad TWI experiences "for good" in our lives. I wasn't blindly ranting without consideration of people who've been hurt. Hurting people was the central consideration of that portion of the post.
It started with:
"IF...."
"If your TWI experiences have not or are not working together for good in your life..."
"If you haven't yet, take the time to focus on WHY I allowed, or what was it about me tha caused me to be susceptible???" Ellipsus supplied... TO THOSE HORRIBLE BASTARDS WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ABUSING ME."
I went on to include myself,
"What is it ABOUT ME that caused me to...TWICE. I didn't see, ... that she was using me."
I am well acquainted with pain. I know enough about past hurts to know that scars heal eventually. If a wound is truly healed, it won't hurt if you bump it. The slightest brush against an open, or unhealed wound could cause excruciating pain.
Frankly. If what I said hurt you, and you think you're "beyond that" consider this; you probably aren't healed yet. My apology or lack thereof should be the least of your concerns. Besides, I supplied a 16 point detailed apology before writing word one of "the remark."
"2. I'm absolutely NOT out to GET or HURT anyone about anything that did or did not happen."
Were I to apologize now, what more would I say? I'm absolutely NOT gonna say "a simple I'm sorry" because WordWolf took exception and Mark ordered me to say THAT.
Why? Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines apology: Grk, apo + logos (literally words from the surface of) or "apologia" and includes "A formal justification." and...
"Sometimes apology, like apologia, implies not an admission of guilt or regret but a desire to clear the grounds for some course, belief, or position." Which should be dreadfully clear by now is what I did both prior and subsequent to "the remark."
I certainly did not appreciate Wordwolf's not so subtle linking of me to those who "have suggested that the women were/are liars...." Mark's, just say this (what I think you should say).
Sometimes, "I'm sorry" alone just doesn't cut it.
I put a lot of thought and my valuable time in my pre-post and post-post apologies. I felt my "remark" deserved more than, "I'm sorry." I gave it much more than that, opened my life to you, largely a bunch of strangers, exposed some of the most hurtful and personal things from people's lives that you really have no right to know.
Why?
Hmmmm. I did that because I'm ignorant and insensitive, not man enough to....
I know that the focus of what I WAS talking about got turned to something I wasn't. My apology was summarily rejected and criticised by someone who doesn't know what an apology is.
He simply tried to force me to say what he wanted me to say and used the pain some feel at the hand of people other than me as justification for that.
A lot of this makes me think that ALL of us were screwed. Not just the few unfortunates that came closer to the mog-to-the-world's lecherous grip. He broke a trust with all of us. I can't see how somebody can deny that.
Maybe most did not experience the worst, but any good received from that organization was paid for in terms of suffering and worse of our sisters.
Suffice it say that each poster has made his/her opinion clear. It's interesting to observe how the Wierwille apologists always seem to digress back to "the good Wierwiile did"...I suppose this is the frame of reference for those who still embrace the myth of the man. Of course, this is the REAL issue here...To rephrase a statement from the old Vickster himself..."You tell me what you think of Victor Paul Wierwille, and I'll tell you how far you have come in your cult recovery". ;)-->
HCW, congrats about your daughter getting into Yale. you must be proud!
This thread has been a juggernaut of "good ol days" info, which spun out of control somewhere around page 5 or 6, i dunno. what amazes me, is the intense hurt, bitterness, angst, callousness,hostility, anger, that is STILL there among you "old timers" ;)--> . This kind of hurt cannot be the fruit of a godly ministry.
I was abused in the Way, physically, mentally, and spiritually from a child, less so as an adult. Was this God's will? No, but God is limited to the extent of the humans "working" for Him. I am not a victim, and am bigger than any transgression that was inflicted upon me, I learned from it, then moved on, able to talk about it to help others if need be, or whatever. I do not understand the present level of hurt by people, but i guess we are all at different phases of recovery, from that time in our lives we were involved in TWI.
I guess this thread answered my question about vpw's legacy. No longer really acknowledged at TWI, VPW is best remembered forever by website testaments of victims, admirers, devotees, enemies, and critics. It seems like he did more harm, than good...the negativity of his actions throughout his life, was far more reaching in the end than any of the good that he might have done. Will anyone ever REALLY know?
*God is limited to the extent of the humans that work for him* ... good point thelema, and there in lies the quandry eh?
Some of us have begun to wonder just exactly who wierwille WAS working for ...
I`d say, viewing the fruit in his life, and the mass destruction left in the wake of his ministry, rather than God being limited by the good, wierwille certainly wasn`t limited in the damage he wrought.....I am not at all convinced anymore that it was God whom he was working for.
quote:I`d say, viewing the fruit in his life, and the mass destruction left in the wake of his ministry, rather than God being limited by the good, wierwille certainly wasn`t limited in the damage he wrought.....I am not at all convinced anymore that it was God whom he was working for.
:)-->
And if he was, what about "all nine all the time"? Where was the revelation to stop all this madness and abuse of power? Why did "leadership" did not get the revelation to put an end to these injustices?they didn't, they got the taste of power and went along with him, those who didnt, got the boot. it just does not add up to biblical specifications or godly design.
that being said, how can you get works such as JC our passover, and JC our promised seed, etc? amazing works even in the secualr world.Planetariums use PS for their christmas shows. Passover made "Passion of the Christ" that much better, (or worse). These are simple illustrations, but you see my point. Its things like these, that keeps alot of people still in and out from writing off VPW.
when i tell what happened to me in the way, it's not to make people feel "poor ex" or to bring attention to myself as the patron saint of sexual abuse....
it's just my personal experience
i actually do understand how child abuse victims attract predators, possibly even in their whole lifetime if they don't figure out what's going on
i don't "hate" anyone here, certainly not you. i just disagree with some stuff. i think vp had a great personality.... i do NOT think he had a great character
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Twinky
For anyone who might be interested in returning to the original subject of this thread: (It's from the Offshoots subforum: Craig has his own splinter group).
Tom Strange
HCW, I'm not here to debate your "side" or their "side"... but...
HCW says:
Really? maybe you didn't mean it that way... this written communication leaves a lot of room for misunderstanding...
HCW said:
No twisting of words and no desire to fight... but...
If a person is not responsible for what someone does TO them while they are there, why would you then ask that question of them? See... I don't think people are laying in wait for you, I want to believe that your intentions are above board, I just think that the earlier statement came across as sort of callous... so did others... and they mentioned that they thought an apology was due, not a defense of what or why you said it... and then a simple suggestion of an apology turns into all this crap...
Read (or re-read) Rascal's post and maybe you'll understand why it appears to be a callous remark...
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shazdancer
HCW,
Some of those women have reported that they were drugged. Others have said that they resisted Wierwille when he made lewd advances. Many of them were kicked out of TWI and lies spread by Wierwille to prevent others from listening to them.
Many were in the RIGHT place at the right time, and horribly used.
I was alone in the motorcoach with Wierwille. Did he assault me? No. I was there because we were INVITED by the MOG to come aboard and ask him any questions we wanted. It never dawned on me that being alone with him was a risky thing to do.
Why was I not propositioned? I will never know. Not pretty enough, already married to a tough, tattooed New Yorker whose skills Wierwille sought? I dunno. But I know that many who have talked about being assaulted had a sexually-compromised past that was included in their "From Birth to the Corps" paper. My bio didn't have that. Wierwille was holding a binder the evening I talked to him.
Long after I left TWI, I was assaulted. By a supposed believer. At the time, I was doing exactly what I should have been doing.
Gee, if I step on someone's toe, even if I didn't mean to, I say I'm sorry. Your "what was it about YOU" remark was hurtful to some who have had the guts to come forward and tell their stories.
Regards,
Shaz
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TheEvan
So Mark, would you say you're a "Master Debater"?
Sorry, couldn't resist
Back to our regularly scheduled program...
Incidentally, fellows, I thought there was a rule about profanity on these boards but I can't find it right now. Could you tone it down?
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houseisarockin
How long shall we suffer those who would blame the victim?
HCW, I really do enjoy your intellect and ability to lay words to print but you can have all the experiences in the world with VP and Craig but you can’t know what a man becomes behind a closed door. And you should pay especial attention to the words of Mark in respect to the authority and accountability of a clergy towards their care.
As far as women having the balls to come out with their accounts, some have balls not to.
And ((shaz))!
And Evan...ha ha ha ha
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TheEvan
HCW, regarding Jacob, I understand how it is you believe what you believe about people changing themselves. It's wound up in Way doctrine and makes perfect sense in that context. There's another school of thought, which I believe is better supported by scripture, that says the Holy Spirit changes a person as he/she yields to the Lord. It says we are incapable of changing ourselves (Can a leopard change his spots?). I understand both points of view and believe the truth, theologically, lies with both views together...
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Shellon
.... some have balls not to
============================================
Amen and thank you for saying it.
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Steve!
HCW - here we go again!
There's been thread after thread about personal responsibility, and how each person is responsible for his or her own actions.
That's true - up to a point.
In many documented cases, there's been coercion involved. If a woman was led to believe that if she didn't "bless" the MOG, that dire consequences would befall her and her family, she might do things she ordinarily wouldn't do.
Imagine person "A" holding a gun to the head of person "B" and saying, "Do this or die". Is person "B" accountable for his or her actions at this point? 50% accountable? 25% accountable?
You cannot accurately say that each individual is completely responsible for his or her own
actions when there is coercion involved.
If both parties involved were there completely of their own wills with no other influences then yes, you are right, each person is responsible for his/her own actions. But there was much more to it than that.
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oldiesman
Been away for a few days.. wow hey this is a good thread
:)-->
Evan, to the best of my knowledge, works of the flesh committed by a Christian doesn't disqualify same from walking by the spirit, when they do. If they did, then I suppose the good Christians who post here, some of whom continually engage in hatred, wrath and strife, would be disqualified as well.VPW preached and taught the Word. Not everything was right on but boy he made an impact and taught the bible is truth, and instilled in us solid respect for that Word. Folks who hung around for years, were blessed with twi and proved by their lives and for themselves that TWI was a genuine ministry at one time. Ours (and VPW'S) good godly works were not in vain.
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oldiesman
Thank you, Radar
:)-->
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Belle
Laleo,
I have enjoyed reading HCW's accounts and perceptions and experiences. I was starting to like the guy until he made the following statements:
He's obviously a vpw worshipper who attributes his spiritual growth, healing and any miracles to vpw instead of God or his own belief.
He obviously has no compassion and is without natural affection and probably even blames his daughters with "allowing" men to abuse them - or at least holds them partially responsible for the devastating things they've had to endure.
It's also disgusting to me that someone puts vpw up on some pedestal when he didn't utter one word that was from his own work or study. The man plagarized, copied and imitated real men of God. His whole ministry was founded on lies and deception. He used the trust and love people had for him to ruin lives just so he could get a little pleasure. God did not excuse Eli's sons and I think anyone who excuses vpw and craig should face the same punishments God doles out to them.
Besides that he's not man enough to simply apologize when he's hurt many people and been told about it.
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laleo
Tom,
I'm not looking for any sort of fight either, but I wonder about a couple of things you said.
"If a person is not responsible for what someone does TO them while they are there, why would you then ask that question of them?"
HCW isn't asking that of anyone. He's saying that it is a question we must all ask ourselves. He's right, isn't he? Do we contribute to our own unhappiness? Maybe so. Maybe not. But the question needs to be asked if we want a way out of the misery.
"they mentioned that they thought an apology was due, not a defense of what or why you said it... and then a simple suggestion of an apology turns into all this crap..."
I can think of two occasions only recently where an apology was demanded of another poster because of "hurtful" remarks, but the repeated apologies weren't accepted, and it turned into "all this crap" anyway. Is the issue really an apology? HCW didn't mean what some of you are making it sound like he meant, so what is he apologizing for?
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laleo
Hi Belle,
What is obvious to you isn't so obvious to me. I don't see evidence for your above claims: VPW worshipper; without compassion or "natural affection" (what is that?); an incompetant (even harmful) father. On the one hand, I do not know HCW. Never met him, never interacted with him here, there, or anywhere, so far as I know, so I can't speak to your accusations with any knowledge or history. But . . . are you getting all that from his posts here? I'm not. He told the story of his daughters as a way to identify with the victims; to demonstrate that he does understand; that he does care; that he wishes for better.
HCW is writing a narrative. It is not your narrative. It doesn't tell the story of your time in The Way. It tells the story of his sojourn there. I don't see where he is asking anyone else to adopt his experience or his conclusions. Right now he has 20 (twenty) posts to his credit. Long posts, for sure, but it doesn't rival the thousands from the people he is up against. What is the fight about? That's what I want to know.
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HCW
Shaz;
Agreed. You bring up a most interesting point. My own "From Birth to The Corps" paper touched on my life's sexual history too.
As one who worked in Way Publications I wondered why nothing was ever done with those papers in terms of publishing a huge journal of testimonies of people's deliverance.
Sorry to disappoint any of you who may think I have VPW "stars in my eyes," but I think he used the binder you spoke of to create his hit list. You don't come across as "the type" one could get over on. People who do that stuff size up their victims, yea or nay, in an instant.
I have a post coming on the "apology" tip... pls stay tuned.
Evan. I plead rookie on the Non Profanity rule. Its generally not my practice to use it. Consider it toned....
Also, I think we're saying the same thing too. I look at it like the fellowlaborer with God thing. You do your part He does his part. To be clear, my point: God can't do it w/ our willing heart, THEN He changes you.
I usually jump that point because too many say, "I'll pray about it...." but do "nothing" in terms of effecting change.
(((((((((house))))))))))
been there, done that. my issue w/ Mark is not about the good stuff he said. I always listen....
A
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oldiesman
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HCW
My position on "Individual responsibility" is rooted in what I'll call the "reverse engineering" we ALL go through in the aftermath of traumatic events. The "if only's," if you will.
When my 9ry old sat on my lap detailing her story..."If only we hadn't sent her, we knew the guy's a drunken jerk" is what I and her Mom felt. "I shouldn't have________________." she thought. We said NO! HE did it TO you.
"If only________________...." fill in you blank.
Corecion, by deninition releases you from responsibility from what you're forced to do. Many types exist, including emotional. Clinton was impeached because as President, HE knew better. Whereas I believe Monica was a full, willing and even proactive participant; THE PRESIDENT was responsible for the events, the incursions, not Monica.
I'm making a distinction
When the pain is acute and the event just past. At times we feel, "If only I had___________ done the most extreme thing to completely avoid the actual event. I'd glady have done it (past tense).
"I could have: not answered the phone, told him go to hell and not went, etc." those thoughts severely trouble some.
Acknowledging one's level of culpability, I believe, acomplishes positive things.
1. It SOLIDIFIES, beyond anything, anyone may say that "it" was NOT your fault. EG; I went to the coach, HE drugged ME.
My 9yr old was overcome with guilt because she had hugged he father. Firmly establishing what she did was how we clarified for her that what she did didn't matter. We got nowhere with the healing until after that.
Sometimes people who are hurting can't see what they DIDN'T do until they take a good look at what they did do.
My psychologist, not VP, taught me that.
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houseisarockin
I'm tracking on what the victim needs to see of themsleves so far........
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HCW
You know Tom....
People have been arguing over written words for centuries. We're no different.
I understand completely why anyone might see "the remark" as callous.
It was callous. My heart IS hardened over this issue. I AM approaching it from an unemotional POV. Intentionally.
However. My "calliosity"
;)-->is certainly NOT directed at Rascal; or any other victim of any of these abuses, pre or post TWI, inside or outside TWI or any other organization in any country or culture in the world.
I am callous towards the ACT, the practice and most of I'm hardened against all the purpetrators, promulgators and activists who promote this hellacious thinking.
I did reread rascals post about 10 times. That is part of what I did after "the post" before my pre-post, post.
The context and subject of my remark was healing, noting GOD's ability and promise to work people's bad TWI experiences "for good" in our lives. I wasn't blindly ranting without consideration of people who've been hurt. Hurting people was the central consideration of that portion of the post.
It started with:
"IF...."
"If your TWI experiences have not or are not working together for good in your life..."
"If you haven't yet, take the time to focus on WHY I allowed, or what was it about me tha caused me to be susceptible???" Ellipsus supplied... TO THOSE HORRIBLE BASTARDS WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ABUSING ME."
I went on to include myself,
"What is it ABOUT ME that caused me to...TWICE. I didn't see, ... that she was using me."
I am well acquainted with pain. I know enough about past hurts to know that scars heal eventually. If a wound is truly healed, it won't hurt if you bump it. The slightest brush against an open, or unhealed wound could cause excruciating pain.
Frankly. If what I said hurt you, and you think you're "beyond that" consider this; you probably aren't healed yet. My apology or lack thereof should be the least of your concerns. Besides, I supplied a 16 point detailed apology before writing word one of "the remark."
"2. I'm absolutely NOT out to GET or HURT anyone about anything that did or did not happen."
Were I to apologize now, what more would I say? I'm absolutely NOT gonna say "a simple I'm sorry" because WordWolf took exception and Mark ordered me to say THAT.
Why? Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines apology: Grk, apo + logos (literally words from the surface of) or "apologia" and includes "A formal justification." and...
"Sometimes apology, like apologia, implies not an admission of guilt or regret but a desire to clear the grounds for some course, belief, or position." Which should be dreadfully clear by now is what I did both prior and subsequent to "the remark."
I certainly did not appreciate Wordwolf's not so subtle linking of me to those who "have suggested that the women were/are liars...." Mark's, just say this (what I think you should say).
Sometimes, "I'm sorry" alone just doesn't cut it.
I put a lot of thought and my valuable time in my pre-post and post-post apologies. I felt my "remark" deserved more than, "I'm sorry." I gave it much more than that, opened my life to you, largely a bunch of strangers, exposed some of the most hurtful and personal things from people's lives that you really have no right to know.
Why?
Hmmmm. I did that because I'm ignorant and insensitive, not man enough to....
I know that the focus of what I WAS talking about got turned to something I wasn't. My apology was summarily rejected and criticised by someone who doesn't know what an apology is.
He simply tried to force me to say what he wanted me to say and used the pain some feel at the hand of people other than me as justification for that.
That's my story & I'm stickin' to it.
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Ham
A lot of this makes me think that ALL of us were screwed. Not just the few unfortunates that came closer to the mog-to-the-world's lecherous grip. He broke a trust with all of us. I can't see how somebody can deny that.
Maybe most did not experience the worst, but any good received from that organization was paid for in terms of suffering and worse of our sisters.
Makes me feel used, deceived. Kind of sick.
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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GrouchoMarxJr
Suffice it say that each poster has made his/her opinion clear. It's interesting to observe how the Wierwille apologists always seem to digress back to "the good Wierwiile did"...I suppose this is the frame of reference for those who still embrace the myth of the man. Of course, this is the REAL issue here...To rephrase a statement from the old Vickster himself..."You tell me what you think of Victor Paul Wierwille, and I'll tell you how far you have come in your cult recovery".
;)-->
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Thelema
HCW, congrats about your daughter getting into Yale. you must be proud!
This thread has been a juggernaut of "good ol days" info, which spun out of control somewhere around page 5 or 6, i dunno. what amazes me, is the intense hurt, bitterness, angst, callousness,hostility, anger, that is STILL there among you "old timers"
;)--> . This kind of hurt cannot be the fruit of a godly ministry.
I was abused in the Way, physically, mentally, and spiritually from a child, less so as an adult. Was this God's will? No, but God is limited to the extent of the humans "working" for Him. I am not a victim, and am bigger than any transgression that was inflicted upon me, I learned from it, then moved on, able to talk about it to help others if need be, or whatever. I do not understand the present level of hurt by people, but i guess we are all at different phases of recovery, from that time in our lives we were involved in TWI.
I guess this thread answered my question about vpw's legacy. No longer really acknowledged at TWI, VPW is best remembered forever by website testaments of victims, admirers, devotees, enemies, and critics. It seems like he did more harm, than good...the negativity of his actions throughout his life, was far more reaching in the end than any of the good that he might have done. Will anyone ever REALLY know?
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rascal
*God is limited to the extent of the humans that work for him* ... good point thelema, and there in lies the quandry eh?
Some of us have begun to wonder just exactly who wierwille WAS working for ...
I`d say, viewing the fruit in his life, and the mass destruction left in the wake of his ministry, rather than God being limited by the good, wierwille certainly wasn`t limited in the damage he wrought.....I am not at all convinced anymore that it was God whom he was working for.
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Thelema
And if he was, what about "all nine all the time"? Where was the revelation to stop all this madness and abuse of power? Why did "leadership" did not get the revelation to put an end to these injustices?they didn't, they got the taste of power and went along with him, those who didnt, got the boot. it just does not add up to biblical specifications or godly design.
that being said, how can you get works such as JC our passover, and JC our promised seed, etc? amazing works even in the secualr world.Planetariums use PS for their christmas shows. Passover made "Passion of the Christ" that much better, (or worse). These are simple illustrations, but you see my point. Its things like these, that keeps alot of people still in and out from writing off VPW.
You have some good, you have a dang ton of evil.
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HCW
Thanks Thelema.
I'm incredibly proud of my daughter getting into Yale. She's really quite an amazing young lady.
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excathedra
hcw, i find your personal story heartwrenching
when i tell what happened to me in the way, it's not to make people feel "poor ex" or to bring attention to myself as the patron saint of sexual abuse....
it's just my personal experience
i actually do understand how child abuse victims attract predators, possibly even in their whole lifetime if they don't figure out what's going on
i don't "hate" anyone here, certainly not you. i just disagree with some stuff. i think vp had a great personality.... i do NOT think he had a great character
peace be with you all
and with your spirits
;)-->
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