quote:You say VP was all of these horribly negative things to you. OK. I accept that. But. What was it about YOU that you apparently didn't know it was wrong to .... a married man? A minister? You must love yourself enough to ask yourself the hard questions.
Like others, I've kept my mouth shut on this thread. But the above comment goes over the pale.
Got some news for you:
Just as it is never right for a pshrink to have a "relationship" with a patient,
Just as it is never right for a teacher to have a "relationship" with a student,
It is NEVER, NEVER, NEVER right for a member of the clergy to have a "relationship" with a person under instruction, under counselling, or in any other kind of relationship.
And
Just as it would be the pshrink's fault if he accepted the advances of a patient,
Just as it would be the teacher's fault if he accepted the advances of a student,
I don't care who initiated the relationship and made the moves, it's still the clergy member's responsibility to maintain the professional boundaries where they need to be.
I don't care if one of these young girls cornered VPW or LoyBoy, ripped her clothes off, got on her knees, undid his zipper and you know the rest, it is still the fault of VPW or the spandex king. Period. Dot. End of Story. Those two are the MOGFART...they are the ones responsible before God for the well-being of their followers, not the other way around.
Look, you can say what you want about India, about how great a guy the forehead was in his youth, you can say whatever you want...if its your opinion or your observations, its not my business to say whether you're lying, deceived, delerious, or telling the objective truth. Its your bit. But when you start blaming the victim for her victim status, that crosses the line.
You owe several females on this board a massive apology. As well as one to the men that love them as sisters or otherwise.
quote:You say VP was all of these horribly negative things to you. OK. I accept that. But. What was it about YOU that you apparently didn't know it was wrong to .... a married man? A minister? You must love yourself enough to ask yourself the hard questions.
that's why i don't argue here anymore
and it's taken me a looooooooong looooooooong time to love myself
Please understand that we've had this discussion here before, and your comment probably reopened a wound or two.
Also, I suggest you need to understand that no matter how clear it may be to you, to an impressionable person learning that so many things she THOUGHT she knew about God were wrong, to have someone acting as God's man on earth tell you that it's God's will to satisfy his lust might carry on a tad more weight than warranted, especially today, with the benefit of more than 20 years of hindsight. How DeLIGHTful for you to remind these women that "adultery" is wrong, as if they haven't tortured themselves with that thought these many years. How WONDerful that you should use gutter street language to describe what they went through. How convenient that you ignore (whether intentionally or not) that on more than one occasion, the actions of which we speak were not consensual.
Why do people ignore the first half of what you said? Simple. Because the second half was so ignorant and detestable that it obliterated any olive branch you were trying to hold out.
I didn't know Wierwille. You obviously did. Bravo that he never hurt either of us. But there are those he did hurt. And they post here. They're your sisters. I suggest you treat them with at least as much respect as you treat your memory of VPW.
VPW pursued a young audience. He deliberately sought out young people in their teens and early 20's to reach with PFAL as he felt they were less institutionalized into religious thinking and would be willing to try a teaching that was different than what established church offered.
He KNEW that the people he dealt with were at the beginnings of their lives, not yet mature and would be more receptive to an alternative.
Regardless of whatever weird, esoteric or downright evil conceptions he had about male and female relations and whether or not he thought he was "right" (which some people believe to this day-that what he did wasn't sin) he KNEW that the people he was dealing with were at very difficult periods in their lives.
He KNEW he was attracting kids coming out of broken homes, bad parental situations, desparate for some kind of direction, so much so that they'd haul off to a farm in Ohio to try something new, something they might be able to call their "own".
ANY ADULT IN HIS RIGHT MIND would have been considerate and thoughtful enough to not risk potentially hurting people at that stage in their lives. Even if someone accepts the nutty idea that he was really trying to "help" women by liberating their sexuality through a real and loving experience and bring "healing" to them, they have to realize if they're even honest for a second that doing so would be so volatile as to be wrong.
Getting mixed up in this kind of stuff with women is how people get really hurt. Husbands, fathers, brothers, mothers, the women themselves take action against their abusers when real depression sets in. I'm telling you for a fact that had he lived to see this stuff come to the surface there would have been hell to pay by a number of people. It's not a psycho-ditzy "who wants to accept responsibility for their actions" BS therapy session discussion. It's dangerous dang he was messing with.
It says a lot about the people involved that these guys have gotten away with lawsuits. Don't think for a minute that Craig is hiding out in Ohio solely because he's getting his mind right. If he's smart he's watching over his shoulder every day for fear that some husband isn't going to reap recompence. It's only because people are as considerate and humane as they are that he's in one piece.
The world is a crappy place most of the time. Life absolutely sucks for the vast majority of people. Evil people are at every corner taking the weak ones down. To have taken such risk, influenced even a small number of people if that in such a way - forget it.
"2. I'm absolutely NOT out to GET or HURT anyone about anything that did or did not happen."
I don't feel at all personally attacked by you.
My mother was raped as a young woman.
My older sister suffered the tyranny of abortion.
My younger sister, at one point in her life, prostituted herself for drugs.
My oldest ex-stepdaughter, when she was 9 years old and at the time, my daughter crawled up on my lap after telling me sadly, "Daddy, I need to tell you something..." told me, "My father licked my butt."
and then burst into tears.
My currently nine year old daughter was molested by a male cousin around age 4.
Do I need to discribe the pain, anger and feeling of absolute helplessness I've felt over the past 30yrs? Or will it suffice to say I have a little more than "a glimpse into their perspective..."
Not tryin to be mean or insensitive. I trust all would agree that the topic of sexual abuse, by its very nature is the highest form of meanness and insensitivity. I do not believe that there is, for the victims, ANY way to breach this subject without the potential that they would connect with their pain, unimaginable to me.
Of COURSE, I'm aware that victims of this abuse may "agonize over this question." I would also say that IF there was any sin on the part of the abused in terms of culpability for the act that is cast equally far from them as I said before.
God, my dear, is no respecter of persons.
I would also add,
"Surely he, and no one else, has carried the punishment for our griefs and sorrows for the judgement which was brought about by their sins; smitten by God and humbled.
But he was pierced for our rebellion, buised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stipes WE are healed. Isa. 53:5.
I didn't write that one either.
It is no small deal to me, its among the world's BIGGEST deals to me. Once I'd felt the pain, equal to feeling the death of a loved on behind MY OWN DAUGHTER being abused, I vowed to do my best to NEVER feel this again. I've never tried to make VPW's transgressions appear understandable by that, or any other comment I've made. The only way one could understand the actions is from the point of view of reprehensible behavior.
Regardless of what the victims, knew did or whatever, the responsibility falls on VPW et al. Irrespective of the fact that he was married he was in ministry. There are a whole lot of "woe to you's" concerning how ministers care for GOD's flock. VPW will answer to GOD, not me. I don't excuse him in any way no matter what I feel or don't about feel about his ministry. All I'm saying is that just because VPW committed these heinous sins that doesn't negate any of the good he also did.
That's a hard pill to swallow.
You wanna jump Ol Testament on me? I know what they did to rapists. It ... wasn't - shall we say pleasant. BTW. God didn't Change Jacob, JACOB changed JACOB. As much as some my not want to believe it, but it did seem like VPW actually, finally repented before his death.
Of course it feels like too little too late for many.
This is not to say he wasn't brazen & all that.
I know the whole David story, and how others lost their lives for ONE sin. The problem with that is that we don't live in the Old Testament any more. AND Grace is NOT a license for sin.
God still instructs us to be wise as serpents.... Thank Him that we have a true savior in Christ Jesus. YES, you CAN logically deduce that VPW did the things he did. It doesn't matter how slick he was.
You have not seen any callous dismissal of the betrayal of MY dear trusting sisters. Why do you not see me as one of YOU? WE are members of the body of Christ. I am as angered as you at their betrayal. Were I to see VPW today I might punch him in the face for what he's done. How he betrayed ME. I did, at least, look at LCM like I'd just as soon kill him as look at him. Last time I saw him, not two years ago.
Although the memory of the incident may never go away, the pain from it can. Please do not deny God's promise of healing in your life because VP or whomever your attacker was, is an .....
As long as you continue to "live it over and over, trying to figure out what you did to bring it on....." you are allowing your attacker to maintain power over you. Take back your power! I don't care if you lay naked, sperad eagle on HIS bed, juices flowing, the responsibility NOT do do it fell upon HIM.
PERIOD.
Contradiction? No. Even if you were "all over HIM." Doesn't matter. HE had clear instructions from GOD, his marriage vows, ethics et al. to not take advantage of YOU. All of the reasons a person allowed themselves into the situation are irrelevant compared to the responsibility of the minister. The command to "feed my sheep" is a clear and direct from God as "Thou shalt not eat of it was to Adam." So it doesn't matter what YOU did or didn't do. HE SHOULD HAVE NEVER TOUCHED YOU.
The importance of recognizing one's culpability goes 100% toward the personal healing of the abused. Therefore God tells us "If we confess...." The act of confession moves your heart to where God lives. Rebellion (like the sin of witchcraft) moves your heart away from God. Psychologists will tell you that the first step in emotional healing is to acknowledge the emotional malady.
When we confess, HE, God, is faithful to forgive and cleanse us. The he takes the dirt, turns away from you and throws it so far away we can never get to it. He turns back & smiles & we say, "Thanks Daddy."
"For what?" Then he hugs us, just because we're standing there with him.
We must think about our part. Then settle our mind on the fact that our sin, whatever sin, was paid for long ago. Then we should "fuggeta boutit."
Speaking of medical facts. The mind, itself cannot distinguish between a vividly imagined thought and an actual event. When "you just live it over and over" you renew the emotional injury each time. Acknowledging "it" in all of its facets, good, bad & ugly is the primary and most important part of the healing process. Then throw in "there is therfore now NO condemnation...."
Then we MUST let it go. Spiritually speaking, when we hold onto the sin God has FORGIVEN, CLEANSED and THROWN away from us, it is rebellion against God. Basic disobedience. This in and of itself is sin. Go ahead, argue. God says let it go. Let it Go! If He forgets it who are you to remember?
But honestly God, it hurts sooo bad. True. It does. I'm sure many are far beyond the pain, if so good. This too, will pass. This is why He sent the comforter....
AND. Its OK to HATE the BASTARD that did it. Once you have been cleansed, this TOO, will pass. You can't condemn yourself for experiencing natural emotions God programmed into us. You've been wronged, God isn't gonna beat you down further (like some folks we know). He has already set a path for us back to Him and health, we simply need to "this is the way, walk ye in it."
Agreed. "It WAS so dirty, so abusive, and so wrong....."
My oldest daughter HAS been betrayed. By her own mother. I had to teach her as a little kid how to deal w/that. For a few years she crawled in a shell and would hardly speak to anyone but me and her sisters. Today she is one of the strongest, most impressive young ladies one will ever meet. She's a senior this year, #1 in her class and is one of the tip top high school students in the country. She got accepted at Yale University last month.
*************************************
I'm not insensitive. Of course this is a sensitive issue. I know that. I have faced and am facing more than my fair share of extreme hardships.
My ex-stepdaughter was molested by her own biological father. I wanted to rip his throat out with my bare hands. He claimed he was asleep when he did it.... he got off without one minute of incarceration. She was terrified of the concept of being alone with him. At age 9 she had NO LEGAL right to refuse. He mother, my wife at the time, had no way to refuse participation in the custody/visitation arrangement. If my wife were to do what was best for her daughter and keep her away from THAT beast, SHE faced incarceration herself. The court battle alone might certainly scar my daughter for life.
I injected this point of logic into the equation: "IF, there is nothing wrong with you AND you did this in your sleep, THEREFORE....
ANY time you go to sleep you are a threat to do it again. And, since you work hard, you may fall asleep, as in take a nap.
THEREFORE... it will NEVER be safe for you to be alone with your daughters under ANY circumstance where it is likely for you to fall asleep.
A perfect Catch 22. The psychologist we were working with agreed. He would have to admit to something being wrong & therefore be prosecuted, OR agree he was unsafe to be alone with girls. That forced him to agree to never have any unsupervised visitation.
I supervised the visitation.
*************************************
My comment that brought folks out of the woodwork was rooted in what i DO know about these matters, not what I DON'T. It is what DID happen to my sisters in Christ that causes me to emphasize, women, even young girls MUST have unwielding, unflinching iron fortified boundaries.
Men in positions of power cannot be trusted with women... even Ministers. My actual personal opinion is ESPECIALLY ministers.
It is inherently unfair to tell women YOU must be careful. The very illogic of the statement is painful. That pain pales in comparision to the pain subsequent to the abuse.
My statement was "the lesser of two evils." I will shout is from the highest rooftop if it will keep ONE innocent girl safe. The world is not a nice place, duun-cha know.
That because I'm new to this forum I'm new to these issues. I'm not.
Just because I knew VP & Craig and they never had sex w/ me forced, or otherwise and that I remember the good days I had in TWI that they never hurt me at all.
It seems people also assume that because & make no bones about being Corps and that I was way Int'l staff that I subscribe to the "the whole world revolves around me and what I think or see" attitude.
I've discussed these issues before, both inside and outside the way. I was devastatingly hurt by TWI by a lot more people than Craig & VP.
I've always hated superior attitude and spoke out against it a lot.
As you get to know me you'll see there is a method to my madness. I'm not ignorant, nor an I unknowledgable of things I speak about. I'm a voice for reason and reality. I'm not here to argue. I have read a LOT of threads before posting my first letter here.
I've seen and continue to see little telling comments that indicate certain things. I see that some people have actually imbraced their pain, whatever it may be, and have decided to live with it, some have shed it, some wear it like a badge of honor.
Embracing great pain and certainly wearing it as a badge are not things God wishes for his people. Pain is a subject that I am infinately qualified to speak on. I'm highly qualified, by my experience, to speak on the wrongs recieved at the hand of the ministry.
I'm not the one to take a superior position. I'm just one voice among many. I don't see myself as superior to anyone. So fricken what? I worked at HQ. Its just one job on my resume. In fact I don't even list it on my reume. My time in TWI doesn't define me in any way. When they fired me, I turned a sharp 180 and walked. I didn't even ask why. They fired me on the last Friday of the year with ROA to start on Saturday, stil expecting me to do my ROA photography responsibilities.
I said. "You MUST be crazy." walked out and have not set foot in the OSC since. Well, maybe once, to get some of my stuff. I did call Mrs. VPW about 5 or so years after and went to visit w/her on the Wierwille home patio.
Mrs. seemed the only sane one of the bunch.
At any rate. I'm also not the one to tell anybody, you need to get healed... NOW, its been long enough. In fact I saw a post on one of the threads here on GreaseSpot where somebody was talking about some of the crap in that regard happening at Rome city. The poster spoke about a guy who was injured in the LEAD accident. The guy had hurt his back really bad and did a cartwheel in 'believing action' concerning his healing.
That guy was me. Well I'm still me, I guess, but.... Anyways. That whole last year of The Way Corps was hell for me. "I just wanted the knowledge." The kept trying to throw me out. I kinda thought LCM didn't want me around as a reminder of how screwed up things were. People were dying left & right, that's how bad it was.
PS. If you ever wondered about that LEAD accident feel free to ask. I was riding shotgun. There are two people alive who knew the whole scoop on why we wrecked. The driver & me. Ever break a car windshield with your head in service to the Lord?
What did HCW say that was so reprehensible, so unforgivable, so unconscionable that you guys are piling up on him? Is it just because he hasn't learned the GreaseSpot jargon yet? Doesn't he have the correct terminology down?
Seems to me he's paying dues for a sin he didn't commit.
He's telling HIS story, not YOURS. Can't he have a little space here?
HCW, there was no guise there...there were snide on the surface. Look, I don't know who you are nor do i really care. However, I have known some of these folks for quite a while and have seen all of them do a lot of growing and healing.
The original point, which, frankly, was not addressed by you yet, is that there was, at a bare minimum (e.g., if not out-and-out rape), an extreme violation of ethical standards by twi clergy, specifically vpw and loy. By suggesting that the victim bore any type of responsibility for the actions of the alleged "professional," you are, in effect, defending that. That defense is, imho, unacceptable. You are dealing with women who have been, if not physically raped, then psychologically raped. Making a comment that suggests that this is in any way their fault is offensive. And warrants an apology.
i don't care how many reams of paper you fill with words, you owe them a simple "I'm sorry."
Had you been registered for longer than 5 days, you'd know that the vast majority of my posts are in a forum that you can't see (unless you've been permitted it). If you read them, you'd know that i am a very tough debater. I am a pussycat in the publically accessible fora compared to in the mosh pit. The point: I am not intending to fight with you...if i was, you'd know it.
It seems to me like I haven't learned who in greaseSpot I shuld and should not bow down too.
I'm stubborn that way. That's basically why I was fired from TWI staff.
Thanks :)-->
My advice (not that you asked, but, hey, everyone else is offering theirs) is to stay who you are, otherwise you risk getting lost in the drama and the angst.
At any rate, I'm enjoying your story. It's well-written, and absorbing, although I do take issue with your interpretation of Othello. I think you missed an important paradox, but invoking Shakespeare did make you sound smart.
Anyway, welcome to GreaseSpot, except you've been here for a long time, from what you've said. Welcome anyway. Hope you enjoy your stay, however brief it turns out to be.
That's the trick about this board posting stuff, HCW. After reading through this it looks like we're all posting at about the same time. About the time I'm done with my screed, hit enter, it' must be like lights going off on the board, post-post-post bingo! We got a winnah! :D-->
You don't have to bow down to me, although those that do find it extremely satisfying and often send free will donations as a sign of the great help they've received. :D--> But there's no obligation! I hate to take love offerings if there's no love in the offering although in a twist, I'll suffer it. :D-->
Sorry, I'm in a funny mood. But this topic isn't funny so I'll stop. I don't think on the face of it you're positing any ideas that haven't been on here before. But again, as a husband of 33 years, a father and a wide eyed bushy tailed love boy who's been around the block way too many times I gotta say - VPW was playing with fire, with the bible, with people, with all kinds of stuff. He got burned. His ministry went south, tanked and flew dead stick right in to the wall. It's sad. It's the way it is. I intend to do better by my family and I hope we all do. You included my man!
"All I'm saying is that just because VPW committed these heinous sins that doesn't negate any of the good he also did."
To which I would say, "Yes, it does."
Charles Manson had wonderful "fellowships" with his followers, John Wayne Gacy entertained kids as a clown, Hitler was very fond of his dog. So what?
The fact that there may be some shred of humanity left in a person, or that they're adept at putting on airs doesn't mitigate their life of narcissisistic greed and excess.
Mr. Wierwille spent a good portion of his life conning, misleading, and abusing decent, idealistic kids. I don't care how many heart-warming moments you spent with him reminiscing about God's goodness, the man was slime. Innocence lost, lives wasted, careers derailed, families broken up, for what? So the Vickster could feather his own nest.
The world would be a better place had he and those like him never been born.
HCW, welcome. This is some kind of deja vu all over again...
A lot of us had the same early experiences as you did, some more... some less, but we had them... but I think the more you read around here (and you definitely should continue to read more) you're view may change...
I know mine did... when it comes down to it... after you put two and two together... it just comes down to that VP was running a scam from the get go... you know the "early history"? ...hmmm... had the same problems way back then...
I'm not saying that signs miracles and wonders didn't happen, I know they did, to me and for me... I know where my heart was... and I think so much good did happen because of where OUR hearts were, not where VP's was... your's happened because of where your's was, not VP's...
After you put it all together, it does negate VP and what he did, because he did it for himself, preaching God was just a means to an end for him... but it doesn't negate what you or I did... because our hearts were not in the same place as VP's... thank God for that...
Oh... and I could care less about VP's and Craig's "relationship"... that was my first clue to "walk"... so I did...
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Twinky
For anyone who might be interested in returning to the original subject of this thread: (It's from the Offshoots subforum: Craig has his own splinter group).
markomalley
HCW:
Like others, I've kept my mouth shut on this thread. But the above comment goes over the pale.
Got some news for you:
Just as it is never right for a pshrink to have a "relationship" with a patient,
Just as it is never right for a teacher to have a "relationship" with a student,
It is NEVER, NEVER, NEVER right for a member of the clergy to have a "relationship" with a person under instruction, under counselling, or in any other kind of relationship.
And
Just as it would be the pshrink's fault if he accepted the advances of a patient,
Just as it would be the teacher's fault if he accepted the advances of a student,
I don't care who initiated the relationship and made the moves, it's still the clergy member's responsibility to maintain the professional boundaries where they need to be.
I don't care if one of these young girls cornered VPW or LoyBoy, ripped her clothes off, got on her knees, undid his zipper and you know the rest, it is still the fault of VPW or the spandex king. Period. Dot. End of Story. Those two are the MOGFART...they are the ones responsible before God for the well-being of their followers, not the other way around.
Look, you can say what you want about India, about how great a guy the forehead was in his youth, you can say whatever you want...if its your opinion or your observations, its not my business to say whether you're lying, deceived, delerious, or telling the objective truth. Its your bit. But when you start blaming the victim for her victim status, that crosses the line.
You owe several females on this board a massive apology. As well as one to the men that love them as sisters or otherwise.
Warmest Regards,
Mark O'Malley
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excathedra
and it's taken me a looooooooong looooooooong time to love myself
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JustThinking
Exie,
I love you too.
:)--> No strings either.
JT
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HCW
I was just about to post my next post. However, before I post that post I'm gonna post this pre-post post.
Its clear to the newcomer that there are issues that are very touchy to some folks.
Maybe if I rearrange the words that I posted earlier the point of this pre-post post will be more clear.
What if I had written:
"OK. I accept that you say VP was all of these horribly negative things to you...."
Why did you not see, "I accept that VP was all of these horribly negative things to you..." in what I wrote???
Or "VP was horribly negative to you"...????
It seems like all you saw was the last part. I'm not gonna repost that. It
My next post was written earlier today. I didn't get a chance to post it yet.....
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excathedra
not sure what you mean here, hcw
but i do know what you mean when you ask about fuc king a married man, a minister, and asking yourself hard questions
and yeah i think some of these "issues" are a bit "touchy"
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Raf
HCW,
Please understand that we've had this discussion here before, and your comment probably reopened a wound or two.
Also, I suggest you need to understand that no matter how clear it may be to you, to an impressionable person learning that so many things she THOUGHT she knew about God were wrong, to have someone acting as God's man on earth tell you that it's God's will to satisfy his lust might carry on a tad more weight than warranted, especially today, with the benefit of more than 20 years of hindsight. How DeLIGHTful for you to remind these women that "adultery" is wrong, as if they haven't tortured themselves with that thought these many years. How WONDerful that you should use gutter street language to describe what they went through. How convenient that you ignore (whether intentionally or not) that on more than one occasion, the actions of which we speak were not consensual.
Why do people ignore the first half of what you said? Simple. Because the second half was so ignorant and detestable that it obliterated any olive branch you were trying to hold out.
I didn't know Wierwille. You obviously did. Bravo that he never hurt either of us. But there are those he did hurt. And they post here. They're your sisters. I suggest you treat them with at least as much respect as you treat your memory of VPW.
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houseisarockin
(((Mark and Raf)))
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socks
HCW, a post to consider in your post-post post:
Key points at the top of the list on this topic:
VPW pursued a young audience. He deliberately sought out young people in their teens and early 20's to reach with PFAL as he felt they were less institutionalized into religious thinking and would be willing to try a teaching that was different than what established church offered.
He KNEW that the people he dealt with were at the beginnings of their lives, not yet mature and would be more receptive to an alternative.
Regardless of whatever weird, esoteric or downright evil conceptions he had about male and female relations and whether or not he thought he was "right" (which some people believe to this day-that what he did wasn't sin) he KNEW that the people he was dealing with were at very difficult periods in their lives.
He KNEW he was attracting kids coming out of broken homes, bad parental situations, desparate for some kind of direction, so much so that they'd haul off to a farm in Ohio to try something new, something they might be able to call their "own".
ANY ADULT IN HIS RIGHT MIND would have been considerate and thoughtful enough to not risk potentially hurting people at that stage in their lives. Even if someone accepts the nutty idea that he was really trying to "help" women by liberating their sexuality through a real and loving experience and bring "healing" to them, they have to realize if they're even honest for a second that doing so would be so volatile as to be wrong.
Getting mixed up in this kind of stuff with women is how people get really hurt. Husbands, fathers, brothers, mothers, the women themselves take action against their abusers when real depression sets in. I'm telling you for a fact that had he lived to see this stuff come to the surface there would have been hell to pay by a number of people. It's not a psycho-ditzy "who wants to accept responsibility for their actions" BS therapy session discussion. It's dangerous dang he was messing with.
It says a lot about the people involved that these guys have gotten away with lawsuits. Don't think for a minute that Craig is hiding out in Ohio solely because he's getting his mind right. If he's smart he's watching over his shoulder every day for fear that some husband isn't going to reap recompence. It's only because people are as considerate and humane as they are that he's in one piece.
The world is a crappy place most of the time. Life absolutely sucks for the vast majority of people. Evil people are at every corner taking the weak ones down. To have taken such risk, influenced even a small number of people if that in such a way - forget it.
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HCW
I plead the 2nd.
"2. I'm absolutely NOT out to GET or HURT anyone about anything that did or did not happen."
I don't feel at all personally attacked by you.
My mother was raped as a young woman.
My older sister suffered the tyranny of abortion.
My younger sister, at one point in her life, prostituted herself for drugs.
My oldest ex-stepdaughter, when she was 9 years old and at the time, my daughter crawled up on my lap after telling me sadly, "Daddy, I need to tell you something..." told me, "My father licked my butt."
and then burst into tears.
My currently nine year old daughter was molested by a male cousin around age 4.
Do I need to discribe the pain, anger and feeling of absolute helplessness I've felt over the past 30yrs? Or will it suffice to say I have a little more than "a glimpse into their perspective..."
Not tryin to be mean or insensitive. I trust all would agree that the topic of sexual abuse, by its very nature is the highest form of meanness and insensitivity. I do not believe that there is, for the victims, ANY way to breach this subject without the potential that they would connect with their pain, unimaginable to me.
Of COURSE, I'm aware that victims of this abuse may "agonize over this question." I would also say that IF there was any sin on the part of the abused in terms of culpability for the act that is cast equally far from them as I said before.
God, my dear, is no respecter of persons.
I would also add,
"Surely he, and no one else, has carried the punishment for our griefs and sorrows for the judgement which was brought about by their sins; smitten by God and humbled.
But he was pierced for our rebellion, buised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stipes WE are healed. Isa. 53:5.
I didn't write that one either.
It is no small deal to me, its among the world's BIGGEST deals to me. Once I'd felt the pain, equal to feeling the death of a loved on behind MY OWN DAUGHTER being abused, I vowed to do my best to NEVER feel this again. I've never tried to make VPW's transgressions appear understandable by that, or any other comment I've made. The only way one could understand the actions is from the point of view of reprehensible behavior.
Regardless of what the victims, knew did or whatever, the responsibility falls on VPW et al. Irrespective of the fact that he was married he was in ministry. There are a whole lot of "woe to you's" concerning how ministers care for GOD's flock. VPW will answer to GOD, not me. I don't excuse him in any way no matter what I feel or don't about feel about his ministry. All I'm saying is that just because VPW committed these heinous sins that doesn't negate any of the good he also did.
That's a hard pill to swallow.
You wanna jump Ol Testament on me? I know what they did to rapists. It ... wasn't - shall we say pleasant. BTW. God didn't Change Jacob, JACOB changed JACOB. As much as some my not want to believe it, but it did seem like VPW actually, finally repented before his death.
Of course it feels like too little too late for many.
This is not to say he wasn't brazen & all that.
I know the whole David story, and how others lost their lives for ONE sin. The problem with that is that we don't live in the Old Testament any more. AND Grace is NOT a license for sin.
God still instructs us to be wise as serpents.... Thank Him that we have a true savior in Christ Jesus. YES, you CAN logically deduce that VPW did the things he did. It doesn't matter how slick he was.
You have not seen any callous dismissal of the betrayal of MY dear trusting sisters. Why do you not see me as one of YOU? WE are members of the body of Christ. I am as angered as you at their betrayal. Were I to see VPW today I might punch him in the face for what he's done. How he betrayed ME. I did, at least, look at LCM like I'd just as soon kill him as look at him. Last time I saw him, not two years ago.
Although the memory of the incident may never go away, the pain from it can. Please do not deny God's promise of healing in your life because VP or whomever your attacker was, is an .....
As long as you continue to "live it over and over, trying to figure out what you did to bring it on....." you are allowing your attacker to maintain power over you. Take back your power! I don't care if you lay naked, sperad eagle on HIS bed, juices flowing, the responsibility NOT do do it fell upon HIM.
PERIOD.
Contradiction? No. Even if you were "all over HIM." Doesn't matter. HE had clear instructions from GOD, his marriage vows, ethics et al. to not take advantage of YOU. All of the reasons a person allowed themselves into the situation are irrelevant compared to the responsibility of the minister. The command to "feed my sheep" is a clear and direct from God as "Thou shalt not eat of it was to Adam." So it doesn't matter what YOU did or didn't do. HE SHOULD HAVE NEVER TOUCHED YOU.
The importance of recognizing one's culpability goes 100% toward the personal healing of the abused. Therefore God tells us "If we confess...." The act of confession moves your heart to where God lives. Rebellion (like the sin of witchcraft) moves your heart away from God. Psychologists will tell you that the first step in emotional healing is to acknowledge the emotional malady.
When we confess, HE, God, is faithful to forgive and cleanse us. The he takes the dirt, turns away from you and throws it so far away we can never get to it. He turns back & smiles & we say, "Thanks Daddy."
"For what?" Then he hugs us, just because we're standing there with him.
We must think about our part. Then settle our mind on the fact that our sin, whatever sin, was paid for long ago. Then we should "fuggeta boutit."
Speaking of medical facts. The mind, itself cannot distinguish between a vividly imagined thought and an actual event. When "you just live it over and over" you renew the emotional injury each time. Acknowledging "it" in all of its facets, good, bad & ugly is the primary and most important part of the healing process. Then throw in "there is therfore now NO condemnation...."
Then we MUST let it go. Spiritually speaking, when we hold onto the sin God has FORGIVEN, CLEANSED and THROWN away from us, it is rebellion against God. Basic disobedience. This in and of itself is sin. Go ahead, argue. God says let it go. Let it Go! If He forgets it who are you to remember?
But honestly God, it hurts sooo bad. True. It does. I'm sure many are far beyond the pain, if so good. This too, will pass. This is why He sent the comforter....
AND. Its OK to HATE the BASTARD that did it. Once you have been cleansed, this TOO, will pass. You can't condemn yourself for experiencing natural emotions God programmed into us. You've been wronged, God isn't gonna beat you down further (like some folks we know). He has already set a path for us back to Him and health, we simply need to "this is the way, walk ye in it."
Agreed. "It WAS so dirty, so abusive, and so wrong....."
My oldest daughter HAS been betrayed. By her own mother. I had to teach her as a little kid how to deal w/that. For a few years she crawled in a shell and would hardly speak to anyone but me and her sisters. Today she is one of the strongest, most impressive young ladies one will ever meet. She's a senior this year, #1 in her class and is one of the tip top high school students in the country. She got accepted at Yale University last month.
*************************************
I'm not insensitive. Of course this is a sensitive issue. I know that. I have faced and am facing more than my fair share of extreme hardships.
My ex-stepdaughter was molested by her own biological father. I wanted to rip his throat out with my bare hands. He claimed he was asleep when he did it.... he got off without one minute of incarceration. She was terrified of the concept of being alone with him. At age 9 she had NO LEGAL right to refuse. He mother, my wife at the time, had no way to refuse participation in the custody/visitation arrangement. If my wife were to do what was best for her daughter and keep her away from THAT beast, SHE faced incarceration herself. The court battle alone might certainly scar my daughter for life.
I injected this point of logic into the equation: "IF, there is nothing wrong with you AND you did this in your sleep, THEREFORE....
ANY time you go to sleep you are a threat to do it again. And, since you work hard, you may fall asleep, as in take a nap.
THEREFORE... it will NEVER be safe for you to be alone with your daughters under ANY circumstance where it is likely for you to fall asleep.
A perfect Catch 22. The psychologist we were working with agreed. He would have to admit to something being wrong & therefore be prosecuted, OR agree he was unsafe to be alone with girls. That forced him to agree to never have any unsupervised visitation.
I supervised the visitation.
*************************************
My comment that brought folks out of the woodwork was rooted in what i DO know about these matters, not what I DON'T. It is what DID happen to my sisters in Christ that causes me to emphasize, women, even young girls MUST have unwielding, unflinching iron fortified boundaries.
Men in positions of power cannot be trusted with women... even Ministers. My actual personal opinion is ESPECIALLY ministers.
It is inherently unfair to tell women YOU must be careful. The very illogic of the statement is painful. That pain pales in comparision to the pain subsequent to the abuse.
My statement was "the lesser of two evils." I will shout is from the highest rooftop if it will keep ONE innocent girl safe. The world is not a nice place, duun-cha know.
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markomalley
HCW:
Would you like a shovel? Surely the dirt under your fingernails have got to be really irritating (from the hole you're digging yourself).
A simple apology would be far more appropriate and effective than a dissertation explaining how you feel their pain.
Just a little hint.
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HCW
God is bigger than all this.
It seems to me like people assume:
That because I'm new to this forum I'm new to these issues. I'm not.
Just because I knew VP & Craig and they never had sex w/ me forced, or otherwise and that I remember the good days I had in TWI that they never hurt me at all.
It seems people also assume that because & make no bones about being Corps and that I was way Int'l staff that I subscribe to the "the whole world revolves around me and what I think or see" attitude.
I've discussed these issues before, both inside and outside the way. I was devastatingly hurt by TWI by a lot more people than Craig & VP.
I've always hated superior attitude and spoke out against it a lot.
As you get to know me you'll see there is a method to my madness. I'm not ignorant, nor an I unknowledgable of things I speak about. I'm a voice for reason and reality. I'm not here to argue. I have read a LOT of threads before posting my first letter here.
I've seen and continue to see little telling comments that indicate certain things. I see that some people have actually imbraced their pain, whatever it may be, and have decided to live with it, some have shed it, some wear it like a badge of honor.
Embracing great pain and certainly wearing it as a badge are not things God wishes for his people. Pain is a subject that I am infinately qualified to speak on. I'm highly qualified, by my experience, to speak on the wrongs recieved at the hand of the ministry.
I'm not the one to take a superior position. I'm just one voice among many. I don't see myself as superior to anyone. So fricken what? I worked at HQ. Its just one job on my resume. In fact I don't even list it on my reume. My time in TWI doesn't define me in any way. When they fired me, I turned a sharp 180 and walked. I didn't even ask why. They fired me on the last Friday of the year with ROA to start on Saturday, stil expecting me to do my ROA photography responsibilities.
I said. "You MUST be crazy." walked out and have not set foot in the OSC since. Well, maybe once, to get some of my stuff. I did call Mrs. VPW about 5 or so years after and went to visit w/her on the Wierwille home patio.
Mrs. seemed the only sane one of the bunch.
At any rate. I'm also not the one to tell anybody, you need to get healed... NOW, its been long enough. In fact I saw a post on one of the threads here on GreaseSpot where somebody was talking about some of the crap in that regard happening at Rome city. The poster spoke about a guy who was injured in the LEAD accident. The guy had hurt his back really bad and did a cartwheel in 'believing action' concerning his healing.
That guy was me. Well I'm still me, I guess, but.... Anyways. That whole last year of The Way Corps was hell for me. "I just wanted the knowledge." The kept trying to throw me out. I kinda thought LCM didn't want me around as a reminder of how screwed up things were. People were dying left & right, that's how bad it was.
PS. If you ever wondered about that LEAD accident feel free to ask. I was riding shotgun. There are two people alive who knew the whole scoop on why we wrecked. The driver & me. Ever break a car windshield with your head in service to the Lord?
later folks.
peace.
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HCW
No Mark. I don't need no stinking shovel.
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TheEvan
Mark took the words right out of my mouth.
A gentleman would see that he wounded somebody and simply apologize. No qualifiers, no lengthy explanations.
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TheEvan
I realize this is a theological matter, but I fail to get that out of the Jacob record....
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HCW
Mark can't you see that I was writing at roughly the same time, roughly the same stuff you wrote? I just didn't post it til later in the day.
Now you make snide remarks under the guise of a helpful hint.
Gee whiz man, if that's not attacking me personally trying to get a "fight" started... what is?
You can fight by yourself.
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laleo
What did HCW say that was so reprehensible, so unforgivable, so unconscionable that you guys are piling up on him? Is it just because he hasn't learned the GreaseSpot jargon yet? Doesn't he have the correct terminology down?
Seems to me he's paying dues for a sin he didn't commit.
He's telling HIS story, not YOURS. Can't he have a little space here?
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HCW
TheEvan;
If God COULD change people, don't you think HE would have changed VPW?
People only cange when they desire to do so in their hearts.
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HCW
I guess now its God's fault so many were hurt by VP & Craig & their relationship. Right.
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HCW
Laleo;
It seems to me like I haven't learned who in greaseSpot I shuld and should not bow down too.
I'm stubborn that way. That's basically why I was fired from TWI staff.
Thanks
:)-->
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markomalley
HCW, there was no guise there...there were snide on the surface. Look, I don't know who you are nor do i really care. However, I have known some of these folks for quite a while and have seen all of them do a lot of growing and healing.
The original point, which, frankly, was not addressed by you yet, is that there was, at a bare minimum (e.g., if not out-and-out rape), an extreme violation of ethical standards by twi clergy, specifically vpw and loy. By suggesting that the victim bore any type of responsibility for the actions of the alleged "professional," you are, in effect, defending that. That defense is, imho, unacceptable. You are dealing with women who have been, if not physically raped, then psychologically raped. Making a comment that suggests that this is in any way their fault is offensive. And warrants an apology.
i don't care how many reams of paper you fill with words, you owe them a simple "I'm sorry."
Had you been registered for longer than 5 days, you'd know that the vast majority of my posts are in a forum that you can't see (unless you've been permitted it). If you read them, you'd know that i am a very tough debater. I am a pussycat in the publically accessible fora compared to in the mosh pit. The point: I am not intending to fight with you...if i was, you'd know it.
I'm just making a declarative statement here.
You need to apologize.
And don't worry. I won't bother saying it again.
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laleo
My advice (not that you asked, but, hey, everyone else is offering theirs) is to stay who you are, otherwise you risk getting lost in the drama and the angst.
At any rate, I'm enjoying your story. It's well-written, and absorbing, although I do take issue with your interpretation of Othello. I think you missed an important paradox, but invoking Shakespeare did make you sound smart.
Anyway, welcome to GreaseSpot, except you've been here for a long time, from what you've said. Welcome anyway. Hope you enjoy your stay, however brief it turns out to be.
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socks
That's the trick about this board posting stuff, HCW. After reading through this it looks like we're all posting at about the same time. About the time I'm done with my screed, hit enter, it' must be like lights going off on the board, post-post-post bingo! We got a winnah!
:D-->
You don't have to bow down to me, although those that do find it extremely satisfying and often send free will donations as a sign of the great help they've received.
:D--> But there's no obligation! I hate to take love offerings if there's no love in the offering although in a twist, I'll suffer it. 
:D-->
Sorry, I'm in a funny mood. But this topic isn't funny so I'll stop. I don't think on the face of it you're positing any ideas that haven't been on here before. But again, as a husband of 33 years, a father and a wide eyed bushy tailed love boy who's been around the block way too many times I gotta say - VPW was playing with fire, with the bible, with people, with all kinds of stuff. He got burned. His ministry went south, tanked and flew dead stick right in to the wall. It's sad. It's the way it is. I intend to do better by my family and I hope we all do. You included my man!
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George Aar
Just one tidbit that jumped out at me:
"All I'm saying is that just because VPW committed these heinous sins that doesn't negate any of the good he also did."
To which I would say, "Yes, it does."
Charles Manson had wonderful "fellowships" with his followers, John Wayne Gacy entertained kids as a clown, Hitler was very fond of his dog. So what?
The fact that there may be some shred of humanity left in a person, or that they're adept at putting on airs doesn't mitigate their life of narcissisistic greed and excess.
Mr. Wierwille spent a good portion of his life conning, misleading, and abusing decent, idealistic kids. I don't care how many heart-warming moments you spent with him reminiscing about God's goodness, the man was slime. Innocence lost, lives wasted, careers derailed, families broken up, for what? So the Vickster could feather his own nest.
The world would be a better place had he and those like him never been born.
Yeah, I'm not a fan anymore...
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Tom Strange
HCW, welcome. This is some kind of deja vu all over again...
A lot of us had the same early experiences as you did, some more... some less, but we had them... but I think the more you read around here (and you definitely should continue to read more) you're view may change...
I know mine did... when it comes down to it... after you put two and two together... it just comes down to that VP was running a scam from the get go... you know the "early history"? ...hmmm... had the same problems way back then...
I'm not saying that signs miracles and wonders didn't happen, I know they did, to me and for me... I know where my heart was... and I think so much good did happen because of where OUR hearts were, not where VP's was... your's happened because of where your's was, not VP's...
After you put it all together, it does negate VP and what he did, because he did it for himself, preaching God was just a means to an end for him... but it doesn't negate what you or I did... because our hearts were not in the same place as VP's... thank God for that...
Oh... and I could care less about VP's and Craig's "relationship"... that was my first clue to "walk"... so I did...
...read some more... stick around...
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