quote:#1. Why is that that when we, who were there, who, for the most part, were NOT damaged by the experience, post positives about our experiences, SOME of you who were NOT there, or were hurt there, consistently speculate about how BLIND, DUPED or MISGUIDED we were????
I was there, at least for a little while. Like you, I was fired from Staff. I don't know about you, but I was fired simply for being married to the wrong man, and I was fired in 1980 by Wierwille. Don't get me wrong, though. I was still willing to stand with TWI in spite of what I felt was a great and hurtful misunderstanding. I later gave Wierwille an opportunity to right the wrong, but he compounded it instead, and then I left. Most of what I now know about Wierwille (the plagiarism, the adulteries, the drunkennness, the rages) I learned long after the fact, but they helped string together the things I knew first-hand about the guy. We were duped, by one of the best -- a man who duped himself.
quote:#2. Why is is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO hard for some to accept the CONCEPT that TWI was once good then changed to bad????
Because, in my opinion, the facts don't support the premise that TWI the organization was once good. There were good times and lots of good people, absolutely. Good Bible, at times. Miracles? Maybe. Thank God. But as a corporation, it was founded on plagiarism and continued on the whims of one man's own self-interest.
quote:#3. If I & others like me were seeing things in such a delusional, rose colored way WHY did they FIRE us? Why did they tell the new faithful to stay AWAY from those that they kicked out????
I don't think you were delusional. But perhaps you chose to overlook many signs that things were not right in Camelot. I overlooked many red flags, thinking at the time that "nobody is perfect, we all fall short, etc." But the adulteries (along with the lies and the trashed lives) are not about being human -- they are about being evil.
quote:#4. IF they changed from VPW to LCM and LCM's regime is so obviously bad, is it SO impossible that the direction they turned from was good?
It is also possible that LCM was "more the child of hell" than his father in the Word.
Had I taken the time to edit my post better, I probably would have written;
"Seeing as some had a pereception that the early Corps groups were basically a bunch of drugged out, sexed up hippies when they came to HQ..."
I'd say I'm more "seriously kidding" about statements like that. However, I did also say,
"The people in the first few groups of Way Corps in general are an incredible group of people...." I also said "BASICALLY" -->. :)-->
I was trying to communicate more of a perception than a reality and limitations on my writing skills have surfaced
I probably should have mentioned Del in the list of guys qualified to take over as Pres. too.
Yeah, I've at least met most of the first 3 Corps. Got to know a few more than some of the others.
JOYFUL NOISE! You guys were part of the best that the ministry had to offer. Remember the America Awakes concert on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial? Remember the clouds and the rain that threatened cancelling the concert? Remember how somebody prayed and you guys started playing and the sky cleared up? It turned into a beautiful sunny day. Good GOD what a thrill. Hearing you guys sing,
"Wake Up America! With God above youo've gotta love our coun-try! Waaaaaaaaaaaake up America..."
Always loved that song. A real anthem for cultists the world over. ;)-->
It was the cover of your "America Awakes" album that inpired me to want to join TWI staff. I felt it was a shame that the ministry had to hire an artist who wasn't (at least that's what I was told) associated w/ the ministry to do 1st class artwork "for God." I worked hard to develop until I could do work of that calibre.
Hi, I am 13th corps, you and I DEFINITELY know each other. I was in residence with you, and then went on staff at headquarters in July on 1985 and stayed until roa of 1994 (okay, okay, okay, SO I WAS AN IDIOT.....I was an IDEOLOGICAL IDIOT, and that must count for something.)
I am glad to see you here at Gspot, but like others, I don't remember things as you did. Like Socks, I am from the San Francisco bay area, got involved with twi in 72......finally left twi on December 1, 1999.
The first, second and third corps WERE NOT made up of hippie druggies. Del, (I was in California fellowlaborers) was not a hippie, HE WAS A BIKER. 1st, 2nd, 3rd Corps members were made up of folks such as Howie and Cathi Yeremian Clarke, Duke Clarke, Earl Burton, Howie Yeremian, Joe Coulter, Joseph Wren .......
I have definite problems with your categorization of Don Wierwille. You DID NOT know him better than I did, and regardless of anything recounted in threads such as "Uncle Howard's Mattress" or any memories you think you may have, I worked directly for him and other members of the Wierwille family. He was AS COMMITTED if NOT MORE committed to the Lord Jesus Christ than any other man that has EVER served on the TWI Trustees, BOD, etc.
Over the Waydale and Greasespot days, I have lost some of my dearest friends over my opinion about HOW HE DEALT WITH Martindale. I disagreed plenty over how he DID NOT just blow the lid on Martindale. I am know he had plenty of his own sins and short comings.....BUT, lack of love or commitment to God or The Way International were NOT AMOUNG THEM.
I agree with MANY MANY MANY of the things you have posted. I just want to make sure you know, that there are Gspot posters that know PLENTY MORE than you have seen in the recent months of postings. Don't paint things in a light that are untrue......that is the most damaging thing for the ExWay community.
In case you didn't notice it, my last response to you contained an attempt on my part to match the tone with which you dished it out to me. I don't like posting that way, so I'm taking a more relaxed approach to respond on some of the other things you posted.
Returning briefly though, to the spurious charge of plagiarism, I think I may do an Advanced Search myself sometime and collect together all that I've posted on that one subject. It might make a nice thread.
You wrote: "Oh, one other thing for you Bible believer types out there in happy Bible land: It says holy men of God spake. Doesn't that disqualify Wierwille."
Have you thought of the difference between being qualified for rewards versus being qualified for doing a job?
The subject of rewards is future, and we don't know who gets what yet. But in the past we do know a lot about various men who were given jobs to do, as these things are often reported in God's Word.
There are a few men that come to mind that got some jobs done in spite of what WE might think would disqualify them. Jacob is the classic example. His very name meant "con artist" until God changed it to Israel. Didn't he lie and cheat his brother out of something important? Yet God still honored him abundantly with the job of passing on the Christ line, as well as other things.
How about Balaam, the great-great-great ancestor of Wilbur Post, the owner of TV's Mr. Ed? Balaam received a wonderful revelation regarding the coming of the messiah at the very minute he was being paid by a pagan to curse Israel. His prophesy is recorded in your KJV, and he was "crookeder than a dog's hind legs."
Wasn't Moses a little hot headed enough to have killed a man? Yet God gave him plenty of jobs to do.
How about David, who not only knocked up his best friend's wife, he also had his friend killed when his cover up scheme failed? He wrote a lot of Psalms after that, even though the stain on his record would have disqualified him for just about any job in the want ads.
What about Solomon who was had lots and lots of pagan wives? I hear he was quite a nasty guy too. Maybe a lot of that was later in his life, but why would God choose him to receive the mother load of wisdom if God had foreknowledge of his end? If you were God wouldn't you chose a spokesman who would keep a good reputation? I would. But then again, you and I are not God. God has his own criteria for making such selections.
God does give us a set of criteria for making the selections of trusted servants in some situations, like who's going to be hired for the job of baby sitter, or who's going to be hired for the pastorate of a local church. Maybe you are confusing the two different sets of criteria.
We don't EVER get to select who's going to be God's spokesman. Only God can do that, and He's doesn't have to get our approval for whoever He selects.
Dr's selection as God's spokesman was done long ago. Dr found out about it in 1942, and he says he was ready to disqualify himself as a pastor at that time. But God had other plans. God selected him, gave him the revelations to be put into written form, gave him the revelations as to how to get it distributed around the world, and then it was over. God didn't consult you or me or anybody here or elsewhere, he just did it and the jobs got done.
How many rewards Dr gets is totally between him an God. I don't think you'd like anyone else butting into God's decision on your rewards, and you shouldn't butt into that process between God and Dr either.
We're coming full circle, because I just noticed that the successful distribution of these revelations around the world was an area where Dr excelled far beyond his teachers and other sources of material. Dr popularized Bullinger far beyond the reach he'd ever have had alone. BG Leonard was not very outreach oriented either. Kenyon may have sold a few books here and there, but no where near the outreach of the WOW program.
One area that Dr didn't seem to be so successful was in how well he was able to become the man he knew to be, and Dr himself said so, for years, on tape, in print, and even chiseled in stone, his gravestone.
God had His reasons for overlooking Dr's sin and faults, and we shouldn't fight God.
Hey, some good news is that God overlooks your sins and faults too. Isn't that a bonus? Maybe you can become the man Dr knew to be! Hey, that's no maybe, you were called by God Almighty to become that man, you've got Christ in you, the seed for that process. You just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL.
I doubt I know Don Wierwille better than anyone here. Only met the man once. It was at ROA in the early 90s.
A friend said that God had really put Don on his heart and he had been praying for him. He knew I was going to ROA and asked, if I saw him, to sit with him and say "hi." To be honest, I thought "like I'm ever going to see him just sitting under a tree alone!" By that time, a lot of the homey feeling was gone from the Rock. (IMO)
However, I was determined to make it happen because my friend wasn't the type to make requests and certainly not to say "God told me..." Very unusual.
Well, I DID find him sitting under a tree all by himself. (I guess I should watch what I tell God, huh?) I asked him if I could sit with and tell him "hi" from an old friend. He said "sure!" and we just chatted for a while. 20 minutes, maybe. It was almost weird that no one else seemed to even notice him until we were done talking. He was nothing but warm and kind. And in no rush to go "oversee" something. He made me feel like his time with me was very important.
I never got to know him but this is how I will remember Don.
I see what you're saying there, HCW. Radar's right of course. California had a pretty diverse group. I wouldn't even try to describe the range of backgrounds but for the most part everyone was pretty young.
I appreciate your kind comments about Joyful Noise. Thank you. I'll digress a tad, but don't let that stop anything, it'll pass. :)-->
I guess I agree with you in that there are certain things that have happened in my life that I am sure happened the way I experienced them at the time. Whether I call them miracles, incredibly timely coincidences or unexplainable phenomena, they happened. Unusual events occurred enough times that I saw or was part of that I've come to expect that unusual and sometimes incredible events can and will happen.
When they do I try to recognize them for what they are - good. Life sucks so much of the time for so many people that even seeing a little good sometimes is like getting water in a desert. I have a little saying that's my motto - "good is where you find it". When I do I don't argue with reality I just accept it and allow for the possibility that God is at work. Why sometimes and not sometimes, I can't account for.
I do believe the completely unscientific method of "faith" is a part of it but not to the extent that we can live looking for 'results' that are completely predictable by what we see. The juice is in the moments that life is connected to the greater life of God's world. Within that framework, anything can and will happen, often very good things.
I have no idea what VPW's and Craig's relationship really was. In a way, I don't care, at all. For all the men and women who have fought within the Way over it's affairs and it's leadership, all that's come of it is to tear and rip apart the fabric of the only real assets of the Way that we were ever given to take care of - it's people. I don't need any of that and don't want any of that and I recommend that anyone who's a part of it to get away from it as fast and as far as they can.
Returning briefly though, to the spurious charge of plagiarism, I think I may do an Advanced Search myself sometime and collect together all that I've posted on that one subject. It might make a nice thread.
(snip)
We don't EVER get to select who's going to be God's spokesman. Only God can do that, and He's doesn't have to get our approval for whoever He selects.
Dr's selection as God's spokesman was done long ago. Dr found out about it in 1942, and he says he was ready to disqualify himself as a pastor at that time. But God had other plans. God selected him, gave him the revelations to be put into written form, gave him the revelations as to how to get it distributed around the world, and then it was over. God didn't consult you or me or anybody here or elsewhere, he just did it and the jobs got done.
(snip)
God had His reasons for overlooking Dr's sin and faults, and we shouldn't fight God.
Hey, some good news is that God overlooks your sins and faults too. Isn't that a bonus? Maybe you can become the man Dr knew to be! Hey, that's no maybe, you were called by God Almighty to become that man, you've got Christ in you, the seed for that process. You just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL.
If you guys are going to interrupt a thread on an entirely different subject,
I reserve the right to preserve some of the highlights from your commercials.
Oh, almost forgot....
If you're still referring to the cut-and-paste origins of "vpw's" books
as a "spurious charge of plagiarism",
save yourself the trouble of looking up your explanations.
After months and months, you STILL don't understand what plagiarism
and copyright are and how they work.
It's is technically accurate to say that you believe God Almighty told vpw
to plagiarize the work of BG Leonard, JE Stiles, EW Bullinger and EW Kenyon.
You believe his plagiarism was justified. You believe it didn't harm
anyone. You believe it was a good thing. However, the fact of the matter is
that none of those, EVEN IF ENTIRELY TRUE, change the fact of the plagiarism.
If he had been taken to court on charges of copyright infringement,
the court would have thrown the book at him.
(Figure of speech-they would have found him guilty beyond question and made him
At this point in the discusion, I'm gonna add some bottome line qualifiers that are foundational to everything I think and apply to what I say.
1. I'm absolutely NOT angry.
2. I'm absolutely NOT out to GET or HURT anyone about anything that did or did not happen.
3. I KNOW I don't KNOW everything.
4. My memory, although photographic, is not infallable.
5. I'm human, like any other human. That alone declares that I suffer from the ENTIRE list of human failings. I happily admit to them all.
6. I don't worship, nor have I ever worshipped any man.
7. I'm not, nor have I ever been the type to be star struck.
8. I'm not out to "WIN" anything or prove how "right" I am or was.
9. I know I'm not always right, so if YOU find something I'm not right about, then we AGREE and therefore can use my wrongness as a point on which to build or maybe grow our friendship.
10. IF I think you're wrong, I may tell you what I think about THAT. If I do, I'm doing it in the spirit of my #9. If you get mad at me I'll refer you to #9.
11. I own other miscellaneous stuff I can't think about right now. I'll call it general sanity issues. (This is TIRING!!!) If I can't deal w/ some issues I may "plead the 11th."
12. I do believe that The Bible is our only rule of faith & practice.
13. Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life.
14. My Bible says, "Behold I am the Lord, the God of all flesh, is there anything too hard for me?" I believe that.
15. I reserve the right to apply any or all of the above qualifiers singly or in any combination at any time I choose and fully acknowledge YOUR right to refute or deny my allegence or adherence to them as YOU choose. In the event this occurs I will probably refer you to #9 or #11. I also reserve the right to expand the list if I happen to remember something that is covered by #11. You may feel free to expand the list by your observations but in no way can you eliminate any item from it, its MY list, if you don't like it, make your own.
Your projected perceptions of me don't change me,so you can't really change my list. I can't change your list either. -->
That being said. In keeping with the topic here; The first thing I absolutely know to be true about VP & Craig's relationship is that it was not really my business. There are aspects of that relationship however that effected many of us either directly or indirectly.
All men sin, these two are no exception. (12) ... if MY sins are cast as far from me as the east is from the rest and GOD remembers them no more, is that not also true of them?
I wholeheartedly agree that without a thorough study of history, we may be destined to repeat it. There is a measure of validity in reviewing this stuff. I also believe that the review should be base in certain principles of reality, fully acknowledging that individual perceptions in many ways may shape "reality" for an individual.
When VPW said we should use the Word of God as our only rule of faith and practice. I believed that. "Read it for yourself." He said.
I said, "OK I will. I think that's a good idea."
When I saw him drunk at the HQ staff Christmas party in 1978.
I said, "No I won't do that. I don't think that's a good idea."
Please get the point. I really don't want to make another long list. I saw VP do some things I felt were right so I "followed" him, where I felt he was wrong. I didn't.
Further, I did the same with every other authority figure in my life. Starting with my "father in this LIFE," my own Dad. He drank a LOT. I didn't like how he looked, smelled and acted when he drank so I determined in myself, "No. I won't do that." My Dad also, while being a drunken .... bastard at times to my Mom was the most faithful workman I've ever seen or heard of; 33 years with the same company. As far as I knew (& it was reported to me by his friends and management) he NEVER missed a single day of work being drunk. Never even late.
When I grew to driving age, my transportation (and teenage FREEDOM) was predicated upon my taking him to and from work. If I did not show up in time to get him to work on time he'd leave without me. If I made him wait, even ONE step from his regular routine, next time I wanted the car, the answer was NO. He wanted to do EXACTLY the same thing as he would if I wasn't there, his car sat faithfully in a certain area of the parking lot. He said, "I usually look for my car when I'm about right over there; when I look up to see my car, it BETTER be there."
I watched him drag his hung over foot out of bed, get his act together and get to work on time many times. He didn't get drunk every day, he was always a good father to me although he & my Mom didn't get along enough to live together. In all of that he NEVER had a performance related accident in his entire 33 years.
I trust you're noticing that the same time I'm speaking of driving my Dad to & from work was roughly the time I was getting involved w/TWI. I learned to reconcile my father's faults with his qualities and live with both. I accepted his qualities and rejected his faults.
The first time I applied to the Way Corps, the ninth, I got rejected. My Twig Leader (we weren't afraid to call people leaders then) and another great friend from my graduating class in high school did get accepted. There was a hand written note on the form letter from VPW. It said, "You need maturity and stability, perhaps a year as a W.O.W. would help."
What?
Didn't he KNOW who I AM??? I was this hotshot, "Mr. Everything" multi-award winning high school student. Everybody told me I was all that & a bag of chips and HE said I need MATURITY????!!!!! Stability!!!!! I was 19 years OLD!!! (Barely. For about 3 months.) I was like, you can take your Way Corps and shove it. Nonetheless, they left & I stayed home & took over the Twig.
The next year, I went WOW in PGH and lived w/a hotshot Interim 8th Corps, "B". That was an experience. I spent a good part of that year in a quiet slow burn because when I lived w, B I saw that what everybody saw as this dynamic , larger than life leader, was NOT "all that" when you saw the REST of her life. Good GOD! She was CORPS! She had faults!
I distinctly remember one branch meeting where one of the other WOW family coordinators came up to me & hugged me firmly on my shoulder. He said, "You are SOOO LUCKY to live w/ B. She is GREAT!" I forced a smile, nodded & thought, "Yeah right, If you saw her like I do you wouldn't think she's so great." Right then the thought hit me, "If YOU saw her like HE does maybe you would..."
I changed my attitude about B on the spot. We became close. I developed a very healthy respect and admiration for her that remains to this day. The things I saw as faults were actually indearing parts of her personality. I respected the way she could appear goofy & even dizzy & ditzy at home and be a dynamic leader, teacher and healer of hearts as the situation demanded.
She was just like my Dad.
That year I got accepted to the 10th Corps but didn't get my initial tuition deposit in on time (Mr. "All That." ). Later that year I was invited to spend my apprentice 11th Corps year on staff at HQ. I saw qualities and faults in lots of leaders @ HQ as I sure people saw the same in me.
It was in many wanys no different than my Dad.
Not to bore you with more stories, but I've seen, read and heard of the same in leaders in most every sphere of influence on this planet.
From family to government, to media. Actors, athletes, businessmen & women.
NO LEADER, MYSELF INCLUDED, IS THE MAN OR WOMAN YOU SEE ON STAGE. When you see them, they are "ON" there are times when the are equally OFF.
OUR task and responsibility before God is to "prove all things, hold fast to the good."
I brought my own sense of right & wrong TO my association W/ TWI, VP and LCM. That includes the concept the every man is responsible to God for their own actions. I wasn't "DUPED" in to working w/TWI I read my Bible and compared their words and actions to IT.
I simply rejected anything I felt didn't match up to the Word. At one time I felt there was more word there than not. More Word centered actions, or perhaps ENOUGH for me. But then my PERCEPTIONS shaped that reality, right?
This is PRECISELY wahy we all need a savior. This is why we must accept the Bible and God's words as a coherent set of rules for practicle application in life.
I'm definately not excusing VP or LCM for their actions. I'm just not excusing any of you or MYSELF for yours or mine.
My Bible still says that "all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to his purpose." IF your TWI experiences have not or ARE not working together for GOOD in your live YOU either do NOT love God or you are not called according to His purpose.
"I didn't write the book people."
I'm PERCEIVING that perhaps there are people in this EX-WAY community that fall into each of the three categories I mentioned above. You must, if you haven't yet, take the time to focus on WHY I allowed, or what was it ABOUT me that caused me to be susceptable????
You say VP was all of these horribly negative things to you. OK. I accept that. But. What was it about YOU that you apparently didn't know it was wrong to .... a married man? A minister? You must love yourself enough to ask yourself the hard questions.
To those of you who ask what I've been up to all these years? Asking myself those hard questions has been part of it. What is it ABOUT ME that caused me to marry the same BITCH (in two different bodies) TWICE. Didn't I see, (with my indepth spiritual perception and awareness) that she (twice) was using me?
Maybe they weren't a bitch. maybe I'm the jerk they say I am?
I've answered those questions about MYSELF. My TWI experiences ALL of them have or are still working together for good in my life. I learned how to write by doing my Corps research paper, for one thing.
16. If I ever say anything about ME, that doesn't in any was say, insinuate, intimate, infer or suggest that the inverse of the statement is in any way shape or form true about YOU. Although no man is an island, when I talk about me, I'm ONLY talking about me. I don't care what it seems like to you.
Well. I DO care what it seems like to you. It's just that I'm not talkin about you. talkin' 'bout me. I just don't care what you think.
Hmmm.... I do care what you think. Well. Actually I don't.... I do, but I don't.
Or. is it in some ways I do care, but then again, MAYbe I don't???
Maybe I don't know what I think? I know I don't know what YOU think. Sometimes I think I MIGHT know what you think. But then I'm not sure.
This is because I know I DON'T know what YOU think. I know I don't want you to think I think anything bad about you.
At least I think so. Or do I?
I thought I knew what I think. Now I'm not sure.
Well I WAS sure what I think; before I started thinking about it. MAYBE if I didn't think so hard about what I'm thinking about, I might just be sure what I thought.
BUT. If I don't think at all about what I'm thinking about, how can I even be sure that I'm thinking at all?
If you don't think about a thought, is it really a thought? If its not a thought, then what is it?
16. If I ever say anything about ME, that doesn't in any was say, insinuate, intimate, infer or suggest that the inverse of the statement is in any way shape or form true about YOU. Although no man is an island, when I talk about me, I'm ONLY talking about me. I don't care what it seems like to you.
Well. I DO care what it seems like to you. It's just that I'm not talkin about you. talkin' 'bout me. I just don't care what you think.
Hmmm.... I do care what you think. Well. Actually I don't.... I do, but I don't.
Or. is it in some ways I do care, but then again, MAYbe I don't???
Maybe I don't know what I think? I know I don't know what YOU think. Sometimes I think I MIGHT know what you think. But then I'm not sure.
This is because I know I DON'T know what YOU think. I know I don't want you to think I think anything bad about you.
At least I think so. Or do I?
I thought I knew what I think. Now I'm not sure.
Well I WAS sure what I think; before I started thinking about it. MAYBE if I didn't think so hard about what I'm thinking about, I might just be sure what I thought.
BUT. If I don't think at all about what I'm thinking about, how can I even be sure that I'm thinking at all?
If you don't think about a thought, is it really a thought? If its not a thought, then what is it?
WordWolf, sorry for laughing at your expense, although I really am not, I assure you of that, but this is so funny I cannot hold back.....ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
I went through almost exactly the same set of scenarios as you did, but I haven't described them nearly as eloquently, and in nearly as detailed and relatable a fashion as you have.
For me it was the 1977 Christmas party... and on and on with only minor tweaks in the story line...
Man. After reading your posts, sometimes I think you should change yout handle to "BullInAChinashop."
I had taken a vacation day and spent the better part of that day reading stuff websites concerning The Way. I read about 80% of the stuff on most of the sites in total, & read a few in their entirety. I used to post regularly as K.I.S.S. on TranceChat. Hit me on my details if you want. Of course I haven't read all of the comment threads here on GreaseSpot but....
To bottom line it. I read enough to see that lots of you have been around here for years. An idiot could see at a GLANCE that you have 2329 posts as of this writing.
You call yourself "WordWolf." What I've seen of your posts, you lurk in cybershadows attacking most anyONE and anyTHING positive spoken about TWI.
Yet. Especially so of this thread... not ONE scripture. You're a wolf alright. Only in the sense that wolves are skilled hunters and efficent attackers who are adept at concealing themselves prior to executing well planned and executed attacks. You even "run in a pack" with those who think like you.
I've owned two wolves, well, wolf dogs. Siberian Huskys can never be completely tamed because of the wolf in their blood. They are extremely intelligent and carry themselves with a majestic dignity that I don't see in most of your posts.
You project the same ego centric negative insanity on people that most of us left TWI to get away from. Especially those who, "left at the first sign of trouble." Your criticisms don't even line up with your apparent belief system. I usually dismiss them as invalid on that point alone.
One of the things I DON'T care about is how many issues YOU do or don't have with my posts. Please do not feel the need to quantify or clarify any criticism you have of me or my posts. I don't care about that either. Not will it in any way endear me to you.
I don't care to dislike you either. I don't care if you proclaim from your lofty post that,
"It sounds like you have given this some thought, and are currently
giving it more thought.
It also sounds like you're not lumping everyone into one stereotype
or another."
Nor do I care if you think, "Thats good...."
How can I care about and give credence to your proclamations when you apparently believe that a reasonably intelligent adult person can look at photograph with a bunch of people in it and not know its a croud. (????)
If you said things that actually made real world sense, I might engage you in a hearty debate. Instead you verbally place a tent over an area then speak within the shadow you created....
VPW wasn't the only account of the "famous India trip." I saw the pictures from the trip. One could reasonably say the croud in the picture wasn't following VPW because they "wanted healing." (Maybe they wanted his autograph???)
I also don't care how many healings VP produced because I have a LOOOOONNNG list of ones I witnessed after I prayed for people. I'm on Doug McMullan's list of people 'he' MIRACULOUSLY healed. (Remember the day playing our weekly basketball game in the small gym at New Knoxville gym? I came down from a leap (yes. I can LEAP I'm not a white man ) twisted my ankle badly, I couldn't get up. The guys all immediately stopped playing, gathered around me and Doug ministered healing to me. In the name of Jesus Christ, he then took me by my forearm pulled and I rose up and walked! I kept playing for a while.)
Maybe I wasn't hurt. That's pretty cinematic, isn't it? Maybe I dreamed it. I DO have an active imagination.
I can't "I can't PROVE vpw bs'ed us on the whole trip, but..." then again, I can't PROVE Jesus died on the cross either.
Awww, come on now, the WHOLE WORLD flooded!??? Red Sea parted? Maybe Moses BS'ed us too. The facts would tend to point to HIM writing on those tablets. He said he was up there ALONE right? Seeing as his was the ONLY account....
You wrote:
"I will accept that you saw photographs.
I have not seen these photos, nor have I corroborating reports from others
who saw them. Therefore, I believe you saw something and were told what that
something was. "
WordWolf That is fricken INSANE.
Here's the scene young HC looks at a photograph, says, "Hey Mrs. Wife of the world's most insideous cult leader... What's this thing that dark skinned guy is handing our Father in The Word? I ask because I can't see what it is even though I'm looking at it."
Its really a cheap, third world version of a TIMEX watch... Mrs. Cult leader says.
"Oh. Thats the key to the city."
"OOOOOOOOhh....." young HC responds. "Really busy day at the Bus terminal, huh?"
"Oh NOoooooo that's a train station, son. Those people were allll there to have your Father in the Word heal them. They followed us there. See this picture with the nice man waving? He is the one your mighty father healed of the withered arm that day...."
"Wow. Maybe I should forsake all and follow him?" HC coos.
"Yes, my child."
"OK, here's my wallet!"
Thank you WordWolf for illucudating my memories and clarifying what happened for me.
hcw, I kept my mouth shut untill now, ..... I can usually enjoy peoples perspectives of our times in twi, but when you want to cast aspersions on our sisters, in order to make vp`s transgresssions appear understandable, ie the comment about why the would do it knowing adultry was wrong...I have to speak up.
p.s. I really like you as I believe that you are the person who did a great and Godly thing for me once,I will not go into it here, but I do want to say personally, thankyou, I have always wished for the oportunity to do so. My intention is not to attack you personally, but to question your callous dismissal of the betrayal of our dear trusting sisters)
That being said, Do you REALLY think for one miniute that the women who found themselves in this position have ot agonized over this very question...why? That was a pretty insensitive thing to say....of COURSE they have.....use and betrayal never really go away....you just live it over and over, trying to figure out what you did to bring it on......
I can offer you a glimpse into their perspective however.
It would never dawn on many of us at 17, 18, 19, to mistrust the man who introduced us to something as wholesom as the scriptures.....Maybe when the man who claimed that he could show us the way to God, if we would trust him....the man who claimed to be able to show us where we could find the answeres to ALL questions in life and Godliness .... says that he knows what you need to do for healing.....that adultry is not an issue because *all things are Godly* yadda yadda, and a miriad of other tortured sc riptures to make it appear as if what he requires is necessary.... you being naieve, young, and vulnerable ..... sometimes maybe your judgement is impaired.....when you are hurting, when you want to believe that someone can take away the pain and shame.....you will do foolish things like trust the minister who claims that he can help.....we put misgivings on the back burner, and make a decision to trust the individual who taught us of God....... one then finds themself instead of being ministered to...used.
It may seem like a small affair to you buddy, but to those whose trust was betrayed....it was visciously destructive, one more kick in the teeth to souls who had dared hope just one more time that they could become whole, stop hurting.
Instead of being ministered to by a man of God, to possibly be finally freed of the pain and self loathing.....to find out that yet again, they have been simply used. Used by a letcherous, dirty old man....used to sate his selfish lusts...how degrading, how shamefull, and in the end how incredibly destructive and uncaring by a man who claimed to want to minister to us in God`s name.....
Oh, and some women DID say it was wrong and refused...guess what??? He didn`t take rejection well....ever wonder about those overnight dissapearances of women who suddenly became *posessed* and had to leave grounds immediatly?
It was so dirty, so abusive, and so wrong.....
Hcw, if it were your daughter that were the one that were betrayed, dreams and heart crushed as they were used to satisfy some lecherous old drunk masquerading as a man of God....had you viewed the soul crushing betrayal first hand.....maybe you would be more deeply offended....the fact that vpw had seduction of naive, broken teens down to a fine art, that he had a whole schpeal about how it was their duty and responsibility to God, that if they would just allow him the man of God he could *heal* them....and even worse.... taught this as behavior that was acceptable to his proteges.....well many of us find this heinous, and consider it a bit more serious than a man that has simply *sinned*
I personally place it in the catagory of *wolf in sheeps clothing seeking whom he can devour*
It sure wasn`t a blessing.
When one ISN`T deeply offended by this man`s behavior......the manipulation and use of our dear sisters in Christ......the crushing of their trusting souls...I feel is probably still under the spell of this man.......
Hcw, I think for you to question the motives of the naieve young women, their character ..... innocent girls who were callously used, rather than be offended with the dirty old drunk masquerading as a caring minister....the one whom was in charge, the one that required sexual submition of the girls, (the vulnerable children of God placed in his care....as his due......I find this to be insensative.
Had the many of us seen this behavior, we might have recognised him for the self centered, manipulative (dare I say evil?) piece of work, he was ..... rather than hold him in the high regard and esteem of a Godly man, who selflessly devoted his life to ministering to people who were hungry and searching for God.
He betrayed our trust, he betrayed God`s trust...
So a lot of folks like you had a good time, so what if our sisters (and many brothers) had to pay the price behind the scenes for the benefits you/we enjoyed.....s`funny, I don`t see that as a good or Godly thing.
In conclusion (should you have managed to persevere and read this far hee hee)
I`d like to add my welcome, your posts are enlightening and fun to read and remember the good times with....just lay off of our sisters who were the victims of a master manipulator please.
Perhaps this deserves a separate thread considering the topic I see hovering this box, but I'd like to take issue with one of HCW's points. If I need to start a thread, y'all whip me with Ramen noodles & I'll move it. And, as a warning, the issue has been done to death here, but what issue hasn't?
It's the issue of dealing with anothers' sins.
quote:All men sin, these two are no exception. (12) ... if MY sins are cast as far from me as the east is from the rest and GOD remembers them no more, is that not also true of them?
Certainly, yes. With the caveat that it is conditinal. "If we confess our sins He is faithful & just to forgive us our sins & cleanse us from all unrighteousness".
Two problems.
1. Confession & forgiveness, is it a patch for fixing us up every day so we can essentially do whatever the heck we want? He is faithful & just to forgive, yes? But you'd probably agree this is a gross misuse of the concept and does spite to God's grace, crucifies the Lord afresh and all sorts of other dire things. None of us know how much confessing is done by another, but we can see if they walk in the "fear of the Lord" or not. Clearly, these guys didn't. They were so brazen & so profligate for so long is beggars the imagination.
2. Is it okay, biblically, for a man to stay in ministry if he is using, stealing, lying, fornicating like a rabbit, manipulating, even raping? You cannot compare habitual unrepentant profligate behavior carried out over Many Years to David's sins or Jacob's character flaws. GOD CHANGED JACOB. Read Ps 51 to see David's attitude about his sin. And then HE CHANGED.
Sexual predators don't heal. That's medical fact. Lock 'em up, period. (I'd also like to see castration, but that's another story.)
Therefore I'm compelled to view his ministry as a fraud
Kind of interesting.. unlike Loy, one thing you can say for ole vic was he was slick. Really slick. Even five years ago, I would have found it difficult to believe that he would even be capable of doing half the stuff documented here. He really knew how to work a crowd. NOBODY except for the chosen few were remotely aware of what he was doing behind the scenes. Not being in the "in" crowd, I did not have a clue either.
I see people going through what I went through. The denial. How could such a good guy do such dastardly deeds? If you buy into the persona, there is no logical way you could think he did it. He definitely knew "how to win friends and influence people".
Even the vast majority of Germans thought Hitler was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Maybe even he had his good moments at times. And that is what they thought, "surely he is not that bad".
Your post I was humored with was imaginative. Your second post about WordWolf was unfair IMO. He has a heart for God's Word and has demonstrated honor in these forums. You may want to get to know him better.
As far as you sharing your accounts, I appreciate your experiences being relayed and thank you for them.
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Twinky
For anyone who might be interested in returning to the original subject of this thread: (It's from the Offshoots subforum: Craig has his own splinter group).
shazdancer
Dear HCW,
I would like to take on a few of your questions.
I was there, at least for a little while. Like you, I was fired from Staff. I don't know about you, but I was fired simply for being married to the wrong man, and I was fired in 1980 by Wierwille. Don't get me wrong, though. I was still willing to stand with TWI in spite of what I felt was a great and hurtful misunderstanding. I later gave Wierwille an opportunity to right the wrong, but he compounded it instead, and then I left. Most of what I now know about Wierwille (the plagiarism, the adulteries, the drunkennness, the rages) I learned long after the fact, but they helped string together the things I knew first-hand about the guy. We were duped, by one of the best -- a man who duped himself. Because, in my opinion, the facts don't support the premise that TWI the organization was once good. There were good times and lots of good people, absolutely. Good Bible, at times. Miracles? Maybe. Thank God. But as a corporation, it was founded on plagiarism and continued on the whims of one man's own self-interest. I don't think you were delusional. But perhaps you chose to overlook many signs that things were not right in Camelot. I overlooked many red flags, thinking at the time that "nobody is perfect, we all fall short, etc." But the adulteries (along with the lies and the trashed lives) are not about being human -- they are about being evil. It is also possible that LCM was "more the child of hell" than his father in the Word.Regards,
Shazdancer
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HCW
Yo Socks!
Had I taken the time to edit my post better, I probably would have written;
"Seeing as some had a pereception that the early Corps groups were basically a bunch of drugged out, sexed up hippies when they came to HQ..."
I'd say I'm more "seriously kidding" about statements like that. However, I did also say,
"The people in the first few groups of Way Corps in general are an incredible group of people...." I also said "BASICALLY"
-->. 
:)-->
I was trying to communicate more of a perception than a reality and limitations on my writing skills have surfaced
I probably should have mentioned Del in the list of guys qualified to take over as Pres. too.
Yeah, I've at least met most of the first 3 Corps. Got to know a few more than some of the others.
JOYFUL NOISE! You guys were part of the best that the ministry had to offer. Remember the America Awakes concert on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial? Remember the clouds and the rain that threatened cancelling the concert? Remember how somebody prayed and you guys started playing and the sky cleared up? It turned into a beautiful sunny day. Good GOD what a thrill. Hearing you guys sing,
"Wake Up America! With God above youo've gotta love our coun-try! Waaaaaaaaaaaake up America..."
Always loved that song. A real anthem for cultists the world over.
;)-->
It was the cover of your "America Awakes" album that inpired me to want to join TWI staff. I felt it was a shame that the ministry had to hire an artist who wasn't (at least that's what I was told) associated w/ the ministry to do 1st class artwork "for God." I worked hard to develop until I could do work of that calibre.
Small , friken wayworld, huh?
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Radar OReilly
HCW,
Hi, I am 13th corps, you and I DEFINITELY know each other. I was in residence with you, and then went on staff at headquarters in July on 1985 and stayed until roa of 1994 (okay, okay, okay, SO I WAS AN IDIOT.....I was an IDEOLOGICAL IDIOT, and that must count for something.)
I am glad to see you here at Gspot, but like others, I don't remember things as you did. Like Socks, I am from the San Francisco bay area, got involved with twi in 72......finally left twi on December 1, 1999.
The first, second and third corps WERE NOT made up of hippie druggies. Del, (I was in California fellowlaborers) was not a hippie, HE WAS A BIKER. 1st, 2nd, 3rd Corps members were made up of folks such as Howie and Cathi Yeremian Clarke, Duke Clarke, Earl Burton, Howie Yeremian, Joe Coulter, Joseph Wren .......
I have definite problems with your categorization of Don Wierwille. You DID NOT know him better than I did, and regardless of anything recounted in threads such as "Uncle Howard's Mattress" or any memories you think you may have, I worked directly for him and other members of the Wierwille family. He was AS COMMITTED if NOT MORE committed to the Lord Jesus Christ than any other man that has EVER served on the TWI Trustees, BOD, etc.
Over the Waydale and Greasespot days, I have lost some of my dearest friends over my opinion about HOW HE DEALT WITH Martindale. I disagreed plenty over how he DID NOT just blow the lid on Martindale. I am know he had plenty of his own sins and short comings.....BUT, lack of love or commitment to God or The Way International were NOT AMOUNG THEM.
I agree with MANY MANY MANY of the things you have posted. I just want to make sure you know, that there are Gspot posters that know PLENTY MORE than you have seen in the recent months of postings. Don't paint things in a light that are untrue......that is the most damaging thing for the ExWay community.
Radar
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Mike
TheEvan,
In case you didn't notice it, my last response to you contained an attempt on my part to match the tone with which you dished it out to me. I don't like posting that way, so I'm taking a more relaxed approach to respond on some of the other things you posted.
Returning briefly though, to the spurious charge of plagiarism, I think I may do an Advanced Search myself sometime and collect together all that I've posted on that one subject. It might make a nice thread.
You wrote: "Oh, one other thing for you Bible believer types out there in happy Bible land: It says holy men of God spake. Doesn't that disqualify Wierwille."
Have you thought of the difference between being qualified for rewards versus being qualified for doing a job?
The subject of rewards is future, and we don't know who gets what yet. But in the past we do know a lot about various men who were given jobs to do, as these things are often reported in God's Word.
There are a few men that come to mind that got some jobs done in spite of what WE might think would disqualify them. Jacob is the classic example. His very name meant "con artist" until God changed it to Israel. Didn't he lie and cheat his brother out of something important? Yet God still honored him abundantly with the job of passing on the Christ line, as well as other things.
How about Balaam, the great-great-great ancestor of Wilbur Post, the owner of TV's Mr. Ed? Balaam received a wonderful revelation regarding the coming of the messiah at the very minute he was being paid by a pagan to curse Israel. His prophesy is recorded in your KJV, and he was "crookeder than a dog's hind legs."
Wasn't Moses a little hot headed enough to have killed a man? Yet God gave him plenty of jobs to do.
How about David, who not only knocked up his best friend's wife, he also had his friend killed when his cover up scheme failed? He wrote a lot of Psalms after that, even though the stain on his record would have disqualified him for just about any job in the want ads.
What about Solomon who was had lots and lots of pagan wives? I hear he was quite a nasty guy too. Maybe a lot of that was later in his life, but why would God choose him to receive the mother load of wisdom if God had foreknowledge of his end? If you were God wouldn't you chose a spokesman who would keep a good reputation? I would. But then again, you and I are not God. God has his own criteria for making such selections.
God does give us a set of criteria for making the selections of trusted servants in some situations, like who's going to be hired for the job of baby sitter, or who's going to be hired for the pastorate of a local church. Maybe you are confusing the two different sets of criteria.
We don't EVER get to select who's going to be God's spokesman. Only God can do that, and He's doesn't have to get our approval for whoever He selects.
Dr's selection as God's spokesman was done long ago. Dr found out about it in 1942, and he says he was ready to disqualify himself as a pastor at that time. But God had other plans. God selected him, gave him the revelations to be put into written form, gave him the revelations as to how to get it distributed around the world, and then it was over. God didn't consult you or me or anybody here or elsewhere, he just did it and the jobs got done.
How many rewards Dr gets is totally between him an God. I don't think you'd like anyone else butting into God's decision on your rewards, and you shouldn't butt into that process between God and Dr either.
We're coming full circle, because I just noticed that the successful distribution of these revelations around the world was an area where Dr excelled far beyond his teachers and other sources of material. Dr popularized Bullinger far beyond the reach he'd ever have had alone. BG Leonard was not very outreach oriented either. Kenyon may have sold a few books here and there, but no where near the outreach of the WOW program.
One area that Dr didn't seem to be so successful was in how well he was able to become the man he knew to be, and Dr himself said so, for years, on tape, in print, and even chiseled in stone, his gravestone.
God had His reasons for overlooking Dr's sin and faults, and we shouldn't fight God.
Hey, some good news is that God overlooks your sins and faults too. Isn't that a bonus? Maybe you can become the man Dr knew to be! Hey, that's no maybe, you were called by God Almighty to become that man, you've got Christ in you, the seed for that process. You just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL.
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HCW
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sorry that happened Exc...
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JustThinking
Radar,
I doubt I know Don Wierwille better than anyone here. Only met the man once. It was at ROA in the early 90s.
A friend said that God had really put Don on his heart and he had been praying for him. He knew I was going to ROA and asked, if I saw him, to sit with him and say "hi." To be honest, I thought "like I'm ever going to see him just sitting under a tree alone!" By that time, a lot of the homey feeling was gone from the Rock. (IMO)
However, I was determined to make it happen because my friend wasn't the type to make requests and certainly not to say "God told me..." Very unusual.
Well, I DID find him sitting under a tree all by himself. (I guess I should watch what I tell God, huh?) I asked him if I could sit with and tell him "hi" from an old friend. He said "sure!" and we just chatted for a while. 20 minutes, maybe. It was almost weird that no one else seemed to even notice him until we were done talking. He was nothing but warm and kind. And in no rush to go "oversee" something. He made me feel like his time with me was very important.
I never got to know him but this is how I will remember Don.
JT
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socks
I see what you're saying there, HCW. Radar's right of course. California had a pretty diverse group. I wouldn't even try to describe the range of backgrounds but for the most part everyone was pretty young.
I appreciate your kind comments about Joyful Noise. Thank you. I'll digress a tad, but don't let that stop anything, it'll pass.
:)-->
I guess I agree with you in that there are certain things that have happened in my life that I am sure happened the way I experienced them at the time. Whether I call them miracles, incredibly timely coincidences or unexplainable phenomena, they happened. Unusual events occurred enough times that I saw or was part of that I've come to expect that unusual and sometimes incredible events can and will happen.
When they do I try to recognize them for what they are - good. Life sucks so much of the time for so many people that even seeing a little good sometimes is like getting water in a desert. I have a little saying that's my motto - "good is where you find it". When I do I don't argue with reality I just accept it and allow for the possibility that God is at work. Why sometimes and not sometimes, I can't account for.
I do believe the completely unscientific method of "faith" is a part of it but not to the extent that we can live looking for 'results' that are completely predictable by what we see. The juice is in the moments that life is connected to the greater life of God's world. Within that framework, anything can and will happen, often very good things.
I have no idea what VPW's and Craig's relationship really was. In a way, I don't care, at all. For all the men and women who have fought within the Way over it's affairs and it's leadership, all that's come of it is to tear and rip apart the fabric of the only real assets of the Way that we were ever given to take care of - it's people. I don't need any of that and don't want any of that and I recommend that anyone who's a part of it to get away from it as fast and as far as they can.
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WordWolf
If you guys are going to interrupt a thread on an entirely different subject,
I reserve the right to preserve some of the highlights from your commercials.
Oh, almost forgot....
If you're still referring to the cut-and-paste origins of "vpw's" books
as a "spurious charge of plagiarism",
save yourself the trouble of looking up your explanations.
After months and months, you STILL don't understand what plagiarism
and copyright are and how they work.
It's is technically accurate to say that you believe God Almighty told vpw
to plagiarize the work of BG Leonard, JE Stiles, EW Bullinger and EW Kenyon.
You believe his plagiarism was justified. You believe it didn't harm
anyone. You believe it was a good thing. However, the fact of the matter is
that none of those, EVEN IF ENTIRELY TRUE, change the fact of the plagiarism.
If he had been taken to court on charges of copyright infringement,
the court would have thrown the book at him.
(Figure of speech-they would have found him guilty beyond question and made him
pay for breaking the law.)
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HCW
You know?
At this point in the discusion, I'm gonna add some bottome line qualifiers that are foundational to everything I think and apply to what I say.
1. I'm absolutely NOT angry.
2. I'm absolutely NOT out to GET or HURT anyone about anything that did or did not happen.
3. I KNOW I don't KNOW everything.
4. My memory, although photographic, is not infallable.
5. I'm human, like any other human. That alone declares that I suffer from the ENTIRE list of human failings. I happily admit to them all.
6. I don't worship, nor have I ever worshipped any man.
7. I'm not, nor have I ever been the type to be star struck.
8. I'm not out to "WIN" anything or prove how "right" I am or was.
9. I know I'm not always right, so if YOU find something I'm not right about, then we AGREE and therefore can use my wrongness as a point on which to build or maybe grow our friendship.
10. IF I think you're wrong, I may tell you what I think about THAT. If I do, I'm doing it in the spirit of my #9. If you get mad at me I'll refer you to #9.
11. I own other miscellaneous stuff I can't think about right now. I'll call it general sanity issues. (This is TIRING!!!) If I can't deal w/ some issues I may "plead the 11th."
12. I do believe that The Bible is our only rule of faith & practice.
13. Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life.
14. My Bible says, "Behold I am the Lord, the God of all flesh, is there anything too hard for me?" I believe that.
15. I reserve the right to apply any or all of the above qualifiers singly or in any combination at any time I choose and fully acknowledge YOUR right to refute or deny my allegence or adherence to them as YOU choose. In the event this occurs I will probably refer you to #9 or #11. I also reserve the right to expand the list if I happen to remember something that is covered by #11. You may feel free to expand the list by your observations but in no way can you eliminate any item from it, its MY list, if you don't like it, make your own.
Your projected perceptions of me don't change me,so you can't really change my list. I can't change your list either.
--> 
That being said. In keeping with the topic here; The first thing I absolutely know to be true about VP & Craig's relationship is that it was not really my business. There are aspects of that relationship however that effected many of us either directly or indirectly.
All men sin, these two are no exception. (12) ... if MY sins are cast as far from me as the east is from the rest and GOD remembers them no more, is that not also true of them?
I wholeheartedly agree that without a thorough study of history, we may be destined to repeat it. There is a measure of validity in reviewing this stuff. I also believe that the review should be base in certain principles of reality, fully acknowledging that individual perceptions in many ways may shape "reality" for an individual.
When VPW said we should use the Word of God as our only rule of faith and practice. I believed that. "Read it for yourself." He said.
I said, "OK I will. I think that's a good idea."
When I saw him drunk at the HQ staff Christmas party in 1978.
I said, "No I won't do that. I don't think that's a good idea."
Please get the point. I really don't want to make another long list. I saw VP do some things I felt were right so I "followed" him, where I felt he was wrong. I didn't.
Further, I did the same with every other authority figure in my life. Starting with my "father in this LIFE," my own Dad. He drank a LOT. I didn't like how he looked, smelled and acted when he drank so I determined in myself, "No. I won't do that." My Dad also, while being a drunken .... bastard at times to my Mom was the most faithful workman I've ever seen or heard of; 33 years with the same company. As far as I knew (& it was reported to me by his friends and management) he NEVER missed a single day of work being drunk. Never even late.
When I grew to driving age, my transportation (and teenage FREEDOM) was predicated upon my taking him to and from work. If I did not show up in time to get him to work on time he'd leave without me. If I made him wait, even ONE step from his regular routine, next time I wanted the car, the answer was NO. He wanted to do EXACTLY the same thing as he would if I wasn't there, his car sat faithfully in a certain area of the parking lot. He said, "I usually look for my car when I'm about right over there; when I look up to see my car, it BETTER be there."
I watched him drag his hung over foot out of bed, get his act together and get to work on time many times. He didn't get drunk every day, he was always a good father to me although he & my Mom didn't get along enough to live together. In all of that he NEVER had a performance related accident in his entire 33 years.
I trust you're noticing that the same time I'm speaking of driving my Dad to & from work was roughly the time I was getting involved w/TWI. I learned to reconcile my father's faults with his qualities and live with both. I accepted his qualities and rejected his faults.
The first time I applied to the Way Corps, the ninth, I got rejected. My Twig Leader (we weren't afraid to call people leaders then) and another great friend from my graduating class in high school did get accepted. There was a hand written note on the form letter from VPW. It said, "You need maturity and stability, perhaps a year as a W.O.W. would help."
What?
Didn't he KNOW who I AM??? I was this hotshot, "Mr. Everything" multi-award winning high school student. Everybody told me I was all that & a bag of chips and HE said I need MATURITY????!!!!! Stability!!!!! I was 19 years OLD!!! (Barely.
For about 3 months.) I was like, you can take your Way Corps and shove it. Nonetheless, they left & I stayed home & took over the Twig.
The next year, I went WOW in PGH and lived w/a hotshot Interim 8th Corps, "B". That was an experience. I spent a good part of that year in a quiet slow burn because when I lived w, B I saw that what everybody saw as this dynamic , larger than life leader, was NOT "all that" when you saw the REST of her life. Good GOD! She was CORPS! She had faults!
I distinctly remember one branch meeting where one of the other WOW family coordinators came up to me & hugged me firmly on my shoulder. He said, "You are SOOO LUCKY to live w/ B. She is GREAT!" I forced a smile, nodded & thought, "Yeah right, If you saw her like I do you wouldn't think she's so great." Right then the thought hit me, "If YOU saw her like HE does maybe you would..."
I changed my attitude about B on the spot. We became close. I developed a very healthy respect and admiration for her that remains to this day. The things I saw as faults were actually indearing parts of her personality. I respected the way she could appear goofy & even dizzy & ditzy at home and be a dynamic leader, teacher and healer of hearts as the situation demanded.
She was just like my Dad.
That year I got accepted to the 10th Corps but didn't get my initial tuition deposit in on time (Mr. "All That."
). Later that year I was invited to spend my apprentice 11th Corps year on staff at HQ. I saw qualities and faults in lots of leaders @ HQ as I sure people saw the same in me.
It was in many wanys no different than my Dad.
Not to bore you with more stories, but I've seen, read and heard of the same in leaders in most every sphere of influence on this planet.
From family to government, to media. Actors, athletes, businessmen & women.
NO LEADER, MYSELF INCLUDED, IS THE MAN OR WOMAN YOU SEE ON STAGE. When you see them, they are "ON" there are times when the are equally OFF.
OUR task and responsibility before God is to "prove all things, hold fast to the good."
I brought my own sense of right & wrong TO my association W/ TWI, VP and LCM. That includes the concept the every man is responsible to God for their own actions. I wasn't "DUPED" in to working w/TWI I read my Bible and compared their words and actions to IT.
I simply rejected anything I felt didn't match up to the Word. At one time I felt there was more word there than not. More Word centered actions, or perhaps ENOUGH for me. But then my PERCEPTIONS shaped that reality, right?
This is PRECISELY wahy we all need a savior. This is why we must accept the Bible and God's words as a coherent set of rules for practicle application in life.
I'm definately not excusing VP or LCM for their actions. I'm just not excusing any of you or MYSELF for yours or mine.
My Bible still says that "all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to his purpose." IF your TWI experiences have not or ARE not working together for GOOD in your live YOU either do NOT love God or you are not called according to His purpose.
"I didn't write the book people."
I'm PERCEIVING that perhaps there are people in this EX-WAY community that fall into each of the three categories I mentioned above. You must, if you haven't yet, take the time to focus on WHY I allowed, or what was it ABOUT me that caused me to be susceptable????
You say VP was all of these horribly negative things to you. OK. I accept that. But. What was it about YOU that you apparently didn't know it was wrong to .... a married man? A minister? You must love yourself enough to ask yourself the hard questions.
To those of you who ask what I've been up to all these years? Asking myself those hard questions has been part of it. What is it ABOUT ME that caused me to marry the same BITCH (in two different bodies) TWICE. Didn't I see, (with my indepth spiritual perception and awareness) that she (twice) was using me?
Maybe they weren't a bitch. maybe I'm the jerk they say I am?
I've answered those questions about MYSELF. My TWI experiences ALL of them have or are still working together for good in my life. I learned how to write by doing my Corps research paper, for one thing.
gotta go. Bye.
God Bless you. You REALLY ARE God's best.
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skyrider
HCW.....I appreciate you stopping in.
Have a great day!
:)-->
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WordWolf
HCW,
I don't really have issues with most of what you said.
It's a familiar saying around here-and you haven't seen it YET but
it comes up-
that everyone's twi experience was DIFFERENT.
It sounds like you have given this some thought, and are currently
giving it more thought.
It also sounds like you're not lumping everyone into one stereotype
or another. That's good because a lot of us did a cold, logical
analysis of things and came to some unpleasant conclusions.
BTW,
some of us have been here for YEARS and HAVE examined issues of
why we got in, why we stayed, and so on. Some of us DID leave at the
first sign of real trouble. Some of us didn't.
I WILL take exception to something you said at the end, though.
=====
"You say VP was all of these horribly negative things to you. OK.
I accept that. But. What was it about YOU that you apparently didn't
know it was wrong to f* a married man? A minister? You must love
yourself enough to ask yourself the hard questions."
=====
First of all, these issues have been explored a LOT around
here. There's been sociological, psychological, theological
discussion on this. Some people have suggested that the women
were/are liars, or that it was all consentual. Some people
denied saying that while saying it. So, please don't think that
anybody was waiting around for YOU before discussing this.
Second of all, since I'm NOT one of the injured parties,
I'll step back for a bit and leave THEM to speak for themselves.
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HCW
Uh, Oh! Gotta expand my list right away!
16. If I ever say anything about ME, that doesn't in any was say, insinuate, intimate, infer or suggest that the inverse of the statement is in any way shape or form true about YOU. Although no man is an island, when I talk about me, I'm ONLY talking about me. I don't care what it seems like to you.
Well. I DO care what it seems like to you. It's just that I'm not talkin about you. talkin' 'bout me. I just don't care what you think.
Hmmm.... I do care what you think. Well. Actually I don't.... I do, but I don't.
Or. is it in some ways I do care, but then again, MAYbe I don't???
Maybe I don't know what I think? I know I don't know what YOU think. Sometimes I think I MIGHT know what you think. But then I'm not sure.
This is because I know I DON'T know what YOU think. I know I don't want you to think I think anything bad about you.
At least I think so. Or do I?
I thought I knew what I think. Now I'm not sure.
Well I WAS sure what I think; before I started thinking about it. MAYBE if I didn't think so hard about what I'm thinking about, I might just be sure what I thought.
BUT. If I don't think at all about what I'm thinking about, how can I even be sure that I'm thinking at all?
If you don't think about a thought, is it really a thought? If its not a thought, then what is it?
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Steve!
I'm confused now.
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houseisarockin
WordWolf, sorry for laughing at your expense, although I really am not, I assure you of that, but this is so funny I cannot hold back.....ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Mike
HCW,
Bravo, again!
Another masterpiece.
Your filter is well described.
I went through almost exactly the same set of scenarios as you did, but I haven't described them nearly as eloquently, and in nearly as detailed and relatable a fashion as you have.
For me it was the 1977 Christmas party... and on and on with only minor tweaks in the story line...
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Belle
HCW, are you related to Oldiesman or Johniam?
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houseisarockin
So why didn't you ask if he was related to Mike also?
:D--> 
;)-->
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HCW
Yo WordWolf;
Man. After reading your posts, sometimes I think you should change yout handle to "BullInAChinashop."
I had taken a vacation day and spent the better part of that day reading stuff websites concerning The Way. I read about 80% of the stuff on most of the sites in total, & read a few in their entirety. I used to post regularly as K.I.S.S. on TranceChat. Hit me on my details if you want. Of course I haven't read all of the comment threads here on GreaseSpot but....
To bottom line it. I read enough to see that lots of you have been around here for years. An idiot could see at a GLANCE that you have 2329 posts as of this writing.
You call yourself "WordWolf." What I've seen of your posts, you lurk in cybershadows attacking most anyONE and anyTHING positive spoken about TWI.
Yet. Especially so of this thread... not ONE scripture. You're a wolf alright. Only in the sense that wolves are skilled hunters and efficent attackers who are adept at concealing themselves prior to executing well planned and executed attacks. You even "run in a pack" with those who think like you.
I've owned two wolves, well, wolf dogs. Siberian Huskys can never be completely tamed because of the wolf in their blood. They are extremely intelligent and carry themselves with a majestic dignity that I don't see in most of your posts.
You project the same ego centric negative insanity on people that most of us left TWI to get away from. Especially those who, "left at the first sign of trouble." Your criticisms don't even line up with your apparent belief system. I usually dismiss them as invalid on that point alone.
One of the things I DON'T care about is how many issues YOU do or don't have with my posts. Please do not feel the need to quantify or clarify any criticism you have of me or my posts. I don't care about that either. Not will it in any way endear me to you.
I don't care to dislike you either. I don't care if you proclaim from your lofty post that,
"It sounds like you have given this some thought, and are currently
giving it more thought.
It also sounds like you're not lumping everyone into one stereotype
or another."
Nor do I care if you think, "Thats good...."
How can I care about and give credence to your proclamations when you apparently believe that a reasonably intelligent adult person can look at photograph with a bunch of people in it and not know its a croud. (????)
If you said things that actually made real world sense, I might engage you in a hearty debate. Instead you verbally place a tent over an area then speak within the shadow you created....
VPW wasn't the only account of the "famous India trip." I saw the pictures from the trip. One could reasonably say the croud in the picture wasn't following VPW because they "wanted healing." (Maybe they wanted his autograph???)
I also don't care how many healings VP produced because I have a LOOOOONNNG list of ones I witnessed after I prayed for people. I'm on Doug McMullan's list of people 'he' MIRACULOUSLY healed. (Remember the day playing our weekly basketball game in the small gym at New Knoxville gym? I came down from a leap (yes. I can LEAP
I'm not a white man 
) twisted my ankle badly, I couldn't get up. The guys all immediately stopped playing, gathered around me and Doug ministered healing to me. In the name of Jesus Christ, he then took me by my forearm pulled and I rose up and walked! I kept playing for a while.)
Maybe I wasn't hurt. That's pretty cinematic, isn't it? Maybe I dreamed it. I DO have an active imagination.
I can't "I can't PROVE vpw bs'ed us on the whole trip, but..." then again, I can't PROVE Jesus died on the cross either.
Awww, come on now, the WHOLE WORLD flooded!??? Red Sea parted? Maybe Moses BS'ed us too. The facts would tend to point to HIM writing on those tablets. He said he was up there ALONE right? Seeing as his was the ONLY account....
You wrote:
"I will accept that you saw photographs.
I have not seen these photos, nor have I corroborating reports from others
who saw them. Therefore, I believe you saw something and were told what that
something was. "
WordWolf That is fricken INSANE.
Here's the scene young HC looks at a photograph, says, "Hey Mrs. Wife of the world's most insideous cult leader... What's this thing that dark skinned guy is handing our Father in The Word? I ask because I can't see what it is even though I'm looking at it."
Its really a cheap, third world version of a TIMEX watch... Mrs. Cult leader says.
"Oh. Thats the key to the city."
"OOOOOOOOhh....." young HC responds. "Really busy day at the Bus terminal, huh?"
"Oh NOoooooo that's a train station, son. Those people were allll there to have your Father in the Word heal them. They followed us there. See this picture with the nice man waving? He is the one your mighty father healed of the withered arm that day...."
"Wow. Maybe I should forsake all and follow him?" HC coos.
"Yes, my child."
"OK, here's my wallet!"
Thank you WordWolf for illucudating my memories and clarifying what happened for me.
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rascal
hcw, I kept my mouth shut untill now, ..... I can usually enjoy peoples perspectives of our times in twi, but when you want to cast aspersions on our sisters, in order to make vp`s transgresssions appear understandable, ie the comment about why the would do it knowing adultry was wrong...I have to speak up.
p.s. I really like you as I believe that you are the person who did a great and Godly thing for me once,I will not go into it here, but I do want to say personally, thankyou, I have always wished for the oportunity to do so. My intention is not to attack you personally, but to question your callous dismissal of the betrayal of our dear trusting sisters)
That being said, Do you REALLY think for one miniute that the women who found themselves in this position have ot agonized over this very question...why? That was a pretty insensitive thing to say....of COURSE they have.....use and betrayal never really go away....you just live it over and over, trying to figure out what you did to bring it on......
I can offer you a glimpse into their perspective however.
It would never dawn on many of us at 17, 18, 19, to mistrust the man who introduced us to something as wholesom as the scriptures.....Maybe when the man who claimed that he could show us the way to God, if we would trust him....the man who claimed to be able to show us where we could find the answeres to ALL questions in life and Godliness .... says that he knows what you need to do for healing.....that adultry is not an issue because *all things are Godly* yadda yadda, and a miriad of other tortured sc riptures to make it appear as if what he requires is necessary.... you being naieve, young, and vulnerable ..... sometimes maybe your judgement is impaired.....when you are hurting, when you want to believe that someone can take away the pain and shame.....you will do foolish things like trust the minister who claims that he can help.....we put misgivings on the back burner, and make a decision to trust the individual who taught us of God....... one then finds themself instead of being ministered to...used.
It may seem like a small affair to you buddy, but to those whose trust was betrayed....it was visciously destructive, one more kick in the teeth to souls who had dared hope just one more time that they could become whole, stop hurting.
Instead of being ministered to by a man of God, to possibly be finally freed of the pain and self loathing.....to find out that yet again, they have been simply used. Used by a letcherous, dirty old man....used to sate his selfish lusts...how degrading, how shamefull, and in the end how incredibly destructive and uncaring by a man who claimed to want to minister to us in God`s name.....
Oh, and some women DID say it was wrong and refused...guess what??? He didn`t take rejection well....ever wonder about those overnight dissapearances of women who suddenly became *posessed* and had to leave grounds immediatly?
It was so dirty, so abusive, and so wrong.....
Hcw, if it were your daughter that were the one that were betrayed, dreams and heart crushed as they were used to satisfy some lecherous old drunk masquerading as a man of God....had you viewed the soul crushing betrayal first hand.....maybe you would be more deeply offended....the fact that vpw had seduction of naive, broken teens down to a fine art, that he had a whole schpeal about how it was their duty and responsibility to God, that if they would just allow him the man of God he could *heal* them....and even worse.... taught this as behavior that was acceptable to his proteges.....well many of us find this heinous, and consider it a bit more serious than a man that has simply *sinned*
I personally place it in the catagory of *wolf in sheeps clothing seeking whom he can devour*
It sure wasn`t a blessing.
When one ISN`T deeply offended by this man`s behavior......the manipulation and use of our dear sisters in Christ......the crushing of their trusting souls...I feel is probably still under the spell of this man.......
Hcw, I think for you to question the motives of the naieve young women, their character ..... innocent girls who were callously used, rather than be offended with the dirty old drunk masquerading as a caring minister....the one whom was in charge, the one that required sexual submition of the girls, (the vulnerable children of God placed in his care....as his due......I find this to be insensative.
Had the many of us seen this behavior, we might have recognised him for the self centered, manipulative (dare I say evil?) piece of work, he was ..... rather than hold him in the high regard and esteem of a Godly man, who selflessly devoted his life to ministering to people who were hungry and searching for God.
He betrayed our trust, he betrayed God`s trust...
So a lot of folks like you had a good time, so what if our sisters (and many brothers) had to pay the price behind the scenes for the benefits you/we enjoyed.....s`funny, I don`t see that as a good or Godly thing.
In conclusion (should you have managed to persevere and read this far hee hee)
I`d like to add my welcome, your posts are enlightening and fun to read and remember the good times with....just lay off of our sisters who were the victims of a master manipulator please.
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TheEvan
Perhaps this deserves a separate thread considering the topic I see hovering this box, but I'd like to take issue with one of HCW's points. If I need to start a thread, y'all whip me with Ramen noodles & I'll move it. And, as a warning, the issue has been done to death here, but what issue hasn't?
It's the issue of dealing with anothers' sins.
Certainly, yes. With the caveat that it is conditinal. "If we confess our sins He is faithful & just to forgive us our sins & cleanse us from all unrighteousness".
Two problems.
1. Confession & forgiveness, is it a patch for fixing us up every day so we can essentially do whatever the heck we want? He is faithful & just to forgive, yes? But you'd probably agree this is a gross misuse of the concept and does spite to God's grace, crucifies the Lord afresh and all sorts of other dire things. None of us know how much confessing is done by another, but we can see if they walk in the "fear of the Lord" or not. Clearly, these guys didn't. They were so brazen & so profligate for so long is beggars the imagination.
2. Is it okay, biblically, for a man to stay in ministry if he is using, stealing, lying, fornicating like a rabbit, manipulating, even raping? You cannot compare habitual unrepentant profligate behavior carried out over Many Years to David's sins or Jacob's character flaws. GOD CHANGED JACOB. Read Ps 51 to see David's attitude about his sin. And then HE CHANGED.
Sexual predators don't heal. That's medical fact. Lock 'em up, period. (I'd also like to see castration, but that's another story.)
Therefore I'm compelled to view his ministry as a fraud
Therefore,
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Hopefull
Nevermind
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Ham
Kind of interesting.. unlike Loy, one thing you can say for ole vic was he was slick. Really slick. Even five years ago, I would have found it difficult to believe that he would even be capable of doing half the stuff documented here. He really knew how to work a crowd. NOBODY except for the chosen few were remotely aware of what he was doing behind the scenes. Not being in the "in" crowd, I did not have a clue either.
I see people going through what I went through. The denial. How could such a good guy do such dastardly deeds? If you buy into the persona, there is no logical way you could think he did it. He definitely knew "how to win friends and influence people".
Even the vast majority of Germans thought Hitler was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Maybe even he had his good moments at times. And that is what they thought, "surely he is not that bad".
Some of us take more time than others to wake up.
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Oakspear
Nice job with your ad hominem attacks HCW! Your characterization of WordWolf is way off base.
While your first-hand accounts are certainly illustrative, maybe you shouldn't be so suprised and offended if someone disgrees with your conclusions.
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houseisarockin
HCW,
Your post I was humored with was imaginative. Your second post about WordWolf was unfair IMO. He has a heart for God's Word and has demonstrated honor in these forums. You may want to get to know him better.
As far as you sharing your accounts, I appreciate your experiences being relayed and thank you for them.
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