"I was on the back of a train in Jubbulpore. As it was about to
pull out, a man who's not a Christian asked me for healing. I
prayed, and he got a miracle of healing. I shouted to him about
his being healed in the name of Jesus Christ, just as the train
was pulling out." Such a cinematic scene.
Indeed, WW, very cinematic!
It always reminded me of the last scene to that 1940s era movie, "Abe Lincoln in Illinois"-(that I often confuse with "Young Mr. Lincoln", 1939) which I haven't seen in decades.
Abe Lincoln (who sports his newly grown, trademark facial hairs) is standing on the caboose, finishing a speech as the train is
slowly pulling away from the station...I bet this picture made quite the impression upon "Young Mr. Wierwille".
I wonder if there's anything in that movie about Abe receiving a key to the city? As I said, it's been years...
Thanks, Dan.
Me, I was sure he'd seen that specifically in a movie somewhere, but I'm not a
movie maven.
I wonder when TCM or AMC is showing that movie next...
I'd love to review it and see how many things I recognize from it.
Personally, I think the cinema made quite an impression on him.
Supposedly, when he was young, he would tear around on a
motorcycle, almost as if he was Brando in "the Wild One".
EXC. . My new momma in de word. I can never doubt the validity of anyone's personal experiences, especially if I have the smallest expectation that anyone would accept the validity of mine.
I trust that all of you are beginning to see that the TWI you experienced and the one I and older old timers than me lived in are different. In fact the new and current TWI is a perverted mirror image of what we once knew.
Lots of questions:
Most people had no idea of VPW's motorcoach escapades. We bought the first coach in '76. VP had an office in the EOB, in the Wierwille home and one in the coach he soon consolidated his all of his daily workload to his office in the coach. He got tired of forgetting which office what was in, it just made more sense for him to work out of one space and the coach was the logical choice.
Often Howard Allen would drive late through the night (he felt that it was the optimum use of VP's time for him to drive through the night while VP slept so he could use daylight to teach and do business) and VP would be asleep when they pulled in, Mrs. would be asleep in the house. Howard always parked the coach right next to the little shed north of the Wierwille home in precisely the same spot (within inches) on the east side of the courtyard. Howard would secure the coach, plug in the external power and leave the motor running. The hum of the engine was like a lullaby to VP. He used to say he could sleep better in the coach than he could in the house cause the road vibration made it like a rocking crib.
Howard would walk across the BRC parking lot to his house & VP would wake up around 5:30 - 6am and start his workday without having left the coach. Lots of times, VP would come to the BRC for breakfast @ 7. Usually he'd eat in the house w/Mrs. The official HQ workday started @ 8, everyone who worked w/VP had to adjust their workschedule to fit his. He generally started his workday before the rest of us and worked longer.
I lived in "The Upper Room" remember? The doors to the loft faced east, towards the house, I'm a night owl so I saw them come home quite a few times; had a few late night chats w/Howard. Like , "Where you guys been? How long you gonna be home? Any cool stuff happen?" The lights in the coach would be on and VP would be up and working every morning when we got up. It was not unusual to see VP in the morning while we were on our way to the EOB (Executive Office Building) to get showers, (pretty exhiliarating on cool fall mornings, I might add ). We felt privileged to live in the upper room cause most all of the top male leaders in the ministry had lived there in their first days at HQ. We felt like we were carrying on a tradition, it was almost like a fraterinty of "upper room brothers," plus it was like living with VP. He visited us occasionally we'd hear him klunking up the stairs, "Who's livin' in here now?" The he'd tell us some insanely funny story of how Craig, Vince Finnegan, Ralph Dubovsky, or Bo Reahard had done some dumb thing there. or in the barn.
People were always getting called to the coach for some meeting or other, while he was at home or on the road. They would just park It was a completely normal thing so basically the only people who knew of any elicit escapades in the coach were the participants. My opinion and common sense suggests that the aides and perhaps the secretaries may have known what was going on.
Personally, I had wondered occasionally about what business certain people had w/VP. Beyond that, noone not involved really had reason to think anything fishy was going on.
*****************************************
As far as the destruction of the ministry, NONE of the oldtimers had one spec of doubt about that. VP was adamant about successfully passing the ministry on to future generations. I was responsible for the ministry's historical photo files and VP personally OK'ed me to have access to anyone and everything related to the ministry's history. It was my job to organize thousands of pictures and catalog them chronologically and according to what even was what. I had piles of photos and drawer after drawer after drawer of slides of basically every event in the history of TWI. I spent hours with people like Milford & Betty Bowen, Corame Peters, J. Fred Wilson, Don & Wanda W., Mrs. VPW, John & Meg Kish and people in the 1st thru 4th Corps saying, "Who is this and what were they doing? Who shot this?" etc.
I have a pretty unique position in TWI. From the time I spent with the people and the pictures I fell like I was "there." For the better part of ten years '78 - '88, it was my job to be "there" and capture TWI on film for all of you and our children's children. VP always said to me, "Son while you're shooting, think of your children's children and go from there, we are doing all of this for them."
In case you wondered, that's partly why I'm able to pull up these memories from decades ago as if it were yesterday. I don't have any sick allegence to TWI or VP. My allegence is to GOD and the children of Jasmine, Kanisha, Sean, Bradley, and Alana (my children, age 18, 9, 7, 5, & three respectively).
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The people in the first few groups of Way Corps in general are an incredible group of people with a lot of raw and in some cases undeveloped talent. They were, we felt, privileged to get their Corps training directly from VP. They got all of the "top brass" positions, some of the latter single digit corps viewed, by default because there was nobody else, literally in some cases. They were "there" the had heard it from VP. They were the first generation of trained leaders, responsible to; as faithful ones faithfully teach what they were taught.
Seeing as the first three corps were basically a bunch of drugged out, sexed up hippies when they came to HQ, some individuals of the later groups felt they could handle the tops spots better. There was a sense that the top spots went to folks "just because they knew VP." The Corps groups through the years got larger, with more and more accomplished, educated, experienced young people. They were kinda right about the "knowing VP" thing. VP's position was that he would take a person "with a heart for God who didn't know anything" over an MBA any day of the week.
VP felt the MBA would try to tell God what to do when it came to his profession where the person with heart would ASK God what to do cause they didn't know dang about what they were doing! CRAIG was in the category of person who didn't know dang, but he really seemed to have a heart for God in the early years. Craig worked hard to do stuff to put himself in front of VP, some felt more than he actually earned and deserved. Time w/VP was a prized commodity, you always came away from it with more than you had when you went in. Craig was overly greedy w/ VP & took time w/ him. Some felt VP was getting old and didn't see what was going on.
JAL was infinately more experienced and qualified to run the Corps than Craig. The guys running the other root locations, ("locale" was an LCM word, I always felt he used obsure words and coined phrases & did stuff like that trying to look smarter than he was) the regions, corps coordinators, some of the larger limbs and departments, other countries; those guys were impressive; no doubters. VP began talking up the idea that he would not always be President back around the 35th Anniversary PFAL class (or was it Advanced Class '79???). He said that ANY believer was a potential candidate for Pres. The reality though, was that there were only a few guys who were probably really candidates, Johnny Townsend, Vince, Ralph, Bo, John Lynn, Craig, and a couple others.
I noticed (who didn't???) this jealousy thing concerning the "major" leadership positions. Craig made, in my view, to much of that. By the time of the double digit Corps there were no more "major" positions available. I believe, Craig's obsession with his relationship w/ VP actually poisoned the Way Corps. It got so bad that we had to start marketing the twig as "the most important" leadership position in the ministry.
Craig was completely focused on gettin' the President spot, He always acted like he was apprenticing w/ VP for the spot, Other people held tight to their piece of the TWI pie cause there was always some young buck, hotshot Corps grad coming along trained and ready to take your spot. Myself included. We 11th Corps were the biggest group of "hotshot" Corps "ever." We just knew we were "all that AND a BIG honkin' bag of chips, WITH cheeze & salza, thank you."
****************************************
If I were to tell you what I think VP's legacy really is it would .... off a LOT of people. For now let's just say that TWI didn't "turn to $hit in a matter of a couple of years." TWI started on its downhill slope the day Uncle Harry died. Uncle Harry was the true backbone of TWI. Were it not for HIM, his heart, HIS faithful service to God's ministry, TWI would never have been anything. VP knew that, he said that more than a few times in more than a few places.
Uncle Harry was VP's conscious. VP always had a wild hair up his butt, Harry always reigned him in. VP was well aware of his extreme A1 type 1 personality. Uncle Harry was mentor, confidant, big brother and a lot of other good things for VP. As much as everybody in NK didn't like VP EVERYBODY LOVED Harry. The town knew Harry would keep VP from going "too kRAZy."
When Harry died VP died a little too, VP was never the same after that.
We were not fools who staffed HQ, we didn't habg around VP cause he "smiled at us and made us feel special every now and then...." We tested what he taught and it worked. You need to grasp the concept that TWI eroded significantly as VP became less and less involved.
By the time VP died, there were so many, most significantly Donnie and Rosalie Rivenbark and Craig (in that order) who said regularly, "That's how Dr. used to do it, we do it this way now." My last two years on staff were a hellacious, surreal comedy. Crazy, unbelievable errors occurred at every level of the ministry. It was insane? YES. It was surreal, the way that life went on, business as usual, concerning VP's funeral. Us "old timers" & "lifers" were angry about it although few had a position powerful enough to do anything about it.
When Bill Winegarner (ROA Coordinator) left the staff and Rosalie took over as our Trustee Cabinet member, ugh! That was a big deal, BW just didn't give a damn about most any of the crap around HQ. He was in charge of the biggest deal in the ministry. All of the other departments served the Rock of Ages in one way or another. In a practical sense BW was more powerful than LCM. ROA needs this amount of budget - - he didn't really ask - - it was for the ROCK! Most everything revolved around the ROCK and as long as VP was alive ROA was untouchable, the WOW's meant everthing to VP. ROA was for OUR PEOPLE, we HAD to do our best & ROA had to be the best, It got the best of everything. BW ruled the Rock, so... his word carried a lot of clout. When things got bad I went to Bill for help. He was a type of mentor, whe he left things got worse.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I saved the India trip for last.... Mrs. VPW kept all the best of the photos for her Wierwille family photo albums. The ones I had in the historical file were the leftovers that she didn't want. She was wise enough to not let young whippersnappers like me take care of her true family treasures. (Would you? I wouldn't!) She kept all of the best pictures of the India trip. Photos of the stuff she had in the house before it was sold included. (If i remember correctly, she got most if not all of the stuff they sold back BTW. Some people close to the family bought things and kept it for safe keeping, as they thought VP was crazy for asking her to do it.)
I've seen pictures of the India trip. Mrs. had a picture of VP holding the key to the city he received. There are pictures of the cround pressing the train in Jubblpore. The croud was so thick the train could hardly get going. She showed us pictures of VP praying for people and has pictres of the man whose arm got healed. She would not ever let those pictures out of her possession. The trip wasn't BS.
You guys talk like VP was a complete charlitain and we who followed him were star struck, glass-eyed idiots. Men who would do anything for him, just because he asked and women who would spread their legs for him just because he winked.
You insult me, us all, and most notably - yourSELF. Skepticism is healthy, I welcome it. I'm a skeptic myself. Frankly, if more people were as skeptical about TWI as I and a LOT of us were in the late 60's & 70's there probably wouldn't have been the widespread abuse spoken of. Do ya really think we were THAT stupid?
I was first "witnessed to" by my best and most trusted friend. At age 15 I was wise enough that I wouldn't go to twig for MONTHS while he kept asking. Then I finally went to twig to challenge those idiots and pull my best friend OUT of it. TWI had no reputation back then. Nobody could tell you of any worldwide ministry, fabulous headquarters, airplanes, etc. The first time I ever heard VP's voice I thought he sounded wierd & didn't hear a word he said. My Mom was TOTALLY against me getting involved w/TWI. - - He's UGLY! was the first thing I said when I saw him. I challenged EVERYTHING wafers said at first. They said, "Chapter & verse" on everything I retorted to them about "The Bible says...."
It was a full year & 1/2 before I finally agreed to take the class (PFAL). The first time I went to HQ. I said, "It stinks around here." I"m a city kid, fertilizer to me is a bunch of stinky dang on the ground.... Why would anybody BUY dang and SPREAD it all over their YARD??????!!!!!!!!!!!!! I said "THAT??? That's the BRC?" Not impressed. My position changed when I saw signs, miracles and wonders like the way people promised. I was a top high school student, a leader in a huge school with a genius level IQ (what happeneded ??? ) My Mom saw a difference in her son & eventually relaxed her position about the ministry, AFTER she had visited HQ herself.
I'm not trying to insult anyone or exault how smart I must have been. Later in the ministry they flat out seduce people; now they take advantage of the good nature of people's hearts and use people who are sincerely searching for God, telling them "We have God, come with us we'll show you."
Yikes! I just saw that HCW just stepped in the building after I wrote and posted the following. I thought I'd post this and go to bed, but now I see I have some more reading to do.
*******
Based on shazdancer's post and The Evan's post: Is it any wonder that Dr's last teaching was utterly lost?
Has anyone ever wondered WHY a prophet is always lacking honor in his own country and with his own kin? It's because they see his all his $hit and more.
Everyone's got it, so how's God ever going to get His Word into the world?
God had to get His Word into the world so that His Son could read it and grow up in that Word, but God HAD to select sinful men to write that Word for His Son to eventually read. There's no other way! And the devil, always wants to hide the Word so he magnifies the sin of God's spokesmen to those who are close enough see it, and then he also magnifies the temptations thrown at those spokesmen.
A prophet is not without honor EXCEPT with his own kin and countrymen.
A prophet is ALWAYS without honor with his own kin and countrymen.
And George Aar, yes, God's work behind enemy lines here in the devil's world IS very delicate and is always dismantled as soon as possible, and with the help of those kin and countrymen who are always quickly talked out of believing well before the prophet's death.
Look in the Old Testament for account after account where God's work in human institutions ALWAYS falls apart. In the devil's kingdom it's only God's WORD that's durable!
*****
Reflecting on HCW's posts and my own observations, the relationship between Uncle Harry and VPW was one of father and son.
When Uncle Harry was hospitalized for the second time Dr announced at a lunch meeting that he didn't know how he was going to do the ministry if Harry died. It was the most negative public confession I ever saw come from him.
I knew Uncle Harry MUCH better than I knew VPW. When I first arrived to work at HQ Uncle Harry immediately took me under his wing. He'd take me places to help orient me to the area. He found me a room to rent in St. Mary's. He helped me find a car. He helped me deal with my landlord when a severe problem arose. He had me over for dinner.
I was the first person to ever handle Uncle Harry's autobiography. He walked into the Tape Duplicating Dept one day where I worked and had several cassette tapes in his hand. He asked me if I could be trusted with his life. As he handed the tapes to me he said that they were the only copies of his life story, and that he needed duplicates made. He didn't understand the technology and was worried that they might accidentally get erased. I explained to him how it all worked and how we insured against accidental erasure and he was relieved.
One day I asked Uncle Harry how the Board of Trustees meetings worked. I was wondering if they all got revelation together at the same time, or one at a time, or just one, or what? He told me that it wasn't that way at all. He said that they often fought like cats and dogs with the door shut in private.
But then he said that if it was he and Ermal voting against Vic, but after all the discussions Vic would look him in the eye and tell him "Thus saith the Lord" then THAT'S when he'd change his vote and go Vic's way.
I got from him that Dr did make mistakes, and needed to be firmly opposed many times for having the wrong ideas. Vic was his little brother, and Harry told me that they both grew up together with Harry often looking out for Vic like the father who couldn't be there.
But then he also let me know that God would step in and overrule that whole process at times, and He would let Harry know when it was time to step aside.
What an incredible and delicate balance I saw!
If it weren't for the undeniable fact that I got to intimately know the loving True God from VPW's teaching, a God so different from the Roman Catholic nightmare god I had hounding me with daily guilt and dread for as long as I could remember, I'd have never believed such a delicate balance was real.
We were not fools who staffed HQ, we didn't hang around VP cause he "smiled at us and made us feel special every now and then...." We tested what he taught and it worked. You need to grasp the concept that TWI eroded significantly as VP became less and less involved.
(snip)
I saved the India trip for last.... Mrs. VPW kept all the best of the photos for her Wierwille family photo albums. The ones I had in the historical file were the leftovers that she didn't want. She was wise enough to not let young whippersnappers like me take care of her true family treasures. (Would you? I wouldn't!) She kept all of the best pictures of the India trip. Photos of the stuff she had in the house before it was sold included. (If i remember correctly, she got most if not all of the stuff they sold back BTW. Some people close to the family bought things and kept it for safe keeping, as they thought VP was crazy for asking her to do it.)
I've seen pictures of the India trip. Mrs. had a picture of VP holding the key to the city he received. There are pictures of the cround pressing the train in Jubblpore. The croud was so thick the train could hardly get going. She showed us pictures of VP praying for people and has pictres of the man whose arm got healed. She would not ever let those pictures out of her possession. The trip wasn't BS.
You guys talk like VP was a complete charlitain and we who followed him were star struck, glass-eyed idiots. Men who would do anything for him, just because he asked and women who would spread their legs for him just because he winked.
You insult me, us all, and most notably - yourSELF. Skepticism is healthy, I welcome it. I'm a skeptic myself. Frankly, if more people were as skeptical about TWI as I and a LOT of us were in the late 60's & 70's there probably wouldn't have been the widespread abuse spoken of. Do ya really think we were THAT stupid?
(snip)
Although there are a few people here that believe that, you unfairly
stereotype the vast majority of us.
Most of us know that some people saw deliverance from all sorts of things.
Most of us know there were some good teachings.
Most of us know that most of the people who were involved were involved for
good or best reasons.
We WERE some of those people, remember. We haven't experienced total amnesia
and just memorized a report handed to us by some "cult expert".
We handled the evidence ourselves, we were eyewitnesses to some things.
Our positions vary, but they're a bit more complicated than "vpw sucks!"
========
Personally,
as for the India trip,
I will accept that you saw photographs.
I have not seen these photos, nor have I corroborating reports from others
who saw them. Therefore, I believe you saw something and were told what that
something was. I'm slow to automatically accept that they were
-vpw getting a key to a city
-a crowd thronging a train specifically because vpw is on the train
I've seen many photos on the internet, claimed to be of different things.
(The tsunami is the most recent.)
The vast majority were NOT of what was claimed of them.
Further, I'll address one photo which you did not describe but said you saw,
the man with the healed arm.
Now, supposing vpw's story is 100% true, AND the photo you saw was of that
exact man in that exact encounter, here's what we know about the
photograph....
Someone was using an old-style camera, contemporary to the 1950s.
They had it ready and was prepared to take, or taking, photos of the crowd from
the back of a train about to move. (It takes 2 hands to use such a camera.)
They happened to catch the unrehearsed, unprepared, candid shot of this
miraculous healing, and managed to catch it in the second or two before the
train pulled out, or snapped it of the man waving his arm after a train.
This person then probably had to grab the railings with one firm grip, since
they were on the back of a moving train and could be thrown with NO hands
supporting them.
Mind you, if a picture WAS taken from the back of the train, depending on the
moment it was taken,
it would show vpw praying with a man standing on the ground as the train was
beginning to move,
or a man waving wildly behind a train.
Neither of those exactly guarantees a miraculous healing was in process.
Now, if you'd seen a grainy, home-film off the back of the train, for this
oh-so-cinematic moment, now, THEN we'd have something. You'd see the withered
arm unwither and envigorate, then sprung to full effectiveness in moments.
As it was, you saw a photo of something,
and were told what that photo of something was.
Is it possible that what you were told is not precisely what happened?
Might this have been an instance where someone wanted to see somethng, were
told what they saw, and trusted that account-yet the account was not correct?
A number of people here can detail the miraculous snowstorm vpw claimed
blockaded him into a city-complete with angels on the phone with him.
vpw's account was the only one of that incident that jibes with his story.
All objective accounts show not a single snowflake anywhere near this city.
(He stopped telling this story after a while.)
Finally,
almost nobody here believes that vpw had zero substance to what he taught,
Almost nobody here believes that women threw themselves at him,
or threw themselves on a bed because vpw said so.
To claim that we do, again, unfairly stereotypes us.
Feel free to look around thousands of other threads.
We've discussed relative merits and liabilities to just about everything
connected with twi from before there was a twi.
The only thing we seem to agree on is that lcm had fewer redeeming qualities
HCW, in your capacity you surely interacted with the historian? My guess is that your historical photo project fell under her. She & I talked a few times. The more she learned the more trouble she had giving the tour. Once she told me she thought that by the time VP left the church his integrity was shot. She couldn't bring herself to write any history past the move to the farm, so she said. Yes, there were serious moral failings back then, any of which would biblically disqualify him from public ministry. Not my call, I'm talking the Bible here.
I understand your experiences are your own, but I think there is some serious rose tinting on your glasses.
quote:I trust that all of you are beginning to see that the TWI you experienced and the one I and older old timers than me lived in are different. In fact the new and current TWI is a perverted mirror image of what we once knew.
HCW....thanks again for posting your experience.
I, for one, certainly do not dispute your first-hand accounts of twi......and some of us probably ate meals in the BRC basement with you. Yes....the upper room, I stayed there too for a short time. :)-->
Your comment about Uncle Harry being "the true backbone of twi" is interesting. For years, and my postings on Waydale.....I've believed that PFAL '77 was the turning point of twi. Not really considering uncle harry's death as a major factor......but rather vp's age, his moral/spiritual deterioration, increased numbers, and twi mismanagement were all leading factors.
Interesting too.....in your comments on twi president candidates that Walter Cummins is not mentioned. From 1978-1984, the research department was one of vp's "baby projects" where he and Walter worked together. Walter headed up the research team and was highly instrumental in several book releases. He also was "the teacher" on corps nights for many years. Now, granted....Walter didn't have the outgoing charisma of jal or lcm, but he certainly was among the group of candidates.
In your own words, "We were not fools who staffed hq"......how true. Many, many times I spoke out on policies and changes that came down from the trustees. In 1981, when food services moved from the BRC to the OSC.....the "family farm setting" was slipping from view and corporate restructuring was advancing. Even this "signature staple of twi staff" was a jolt of reality that things were bound to change.
To me, it wasn't solely the fact that twi eroded significantly as vpw became less and less involved.....it was MUCH MORE than that. And, even though Don saw the need to appropriate cunning craftsmen for staff, twi needed someone, a ceo-type individual, to bridge the gap of its humble beginnings. Even to this day, twi refuses to adapt to methods used by "the evil world."
In so many ways, twi's teachings and double standards have cemented their efforts from forward progress.
While there was a MAJOR need to manage, incorporate and streamline hq procedures......vpw seemed far too involved in other projects and personal priorities to full devote himself to the OVERSIGHT OF TWI HQ. He even stated as such on more than one staff meeting in 1978-79.
1979..........Advanced Class '79 and all fanfare and promotion.
1979-1981.....Ambassador One flights and weekends.
1981-1982.....Living Victoriously and LCM Inauguation as president.
1983-1984.....High Country Caravan and Way Productions.
1984..........Harmony of the Gospels/ Grand Ole Opry.
Twi SERIOUSLY needed someone, besides vpw, to lead it!
Over the years, both here & on Waydale, I've seen countless posters come in and call the time of their entry into 'the ministry' as the good old days, the days that really were happenin'.
I could argue that socks or me, with our entry in '69 & '70 respectively, came in on the really good old days. So it seemed to me. To me the big change was when Wierwille staged a coup on the Way West&East and coopted those ministries as his own (a familiar pattern if you follow what he did to BG Leonard).
So to you, the big change was when Harry died. Yeah, he was different after that, but i didn't see a marked change in Der Veg, just a continued slide in the direction it had charted years earlier.
For others, their time of entry was dem golden days.
Back to Leonard. Being cataloger of old photos and such, surely you are familiar with the photos of Wierwille's first two "PFAL" classes? Well, most everybody was, as they were published often enough. Did you ever see the rest of them? Like the ones picturing the water baptisms? I did. But i didn't see them in Da Way. I saw them in some old newsletters displayed at BG Leonard's 90th birthday party, which we hosted for him. I was just casually leafing through some old ones and you can imagine the jolt I got when my eyes landed on a familiar picture. It was the old "1st Piffle Class" photo I'd seen so many times.
As you know, Wierwille had recently taken Leonard's class. He returned to O-hiya to teach Leonard's class with Leonard's blessing. The accompanying article was about this Rev. Wierwille teaching CTC's Gifts of the Spirit course to members of his congregatin in O-hiya. Hmmm. Turns out wierwille lied to the man, co-oted the man's work as his own. FAMILIAR PATTERN!
All of which disqualifies him in any way from having been in public ministry of any kind. Period. However you burnish it and photograph it with a warm hazy glow, the conclusion is clear in the harsh light of day.
Evan.....thanks for bringing Leonard into this discussion. There were many discussions on Waydale about Leonard and "the good ole days."
After reading through many of those threads, I realized that lots of twi's "good ole days history" was DOCTORED FOR PUBLIC CONSUMPTION before I arrived on the scene in 1974. And, then you give this first-hand account.....
quote:As you know, Wierwille had recently taken Leonard's class. He returned to O-hiya to teach Leonard's class with Leonard's blessing. The accompanying article was about this Rev. Wierwille teaching CTC's Gifts of the Spirit course to members of his congregatin in O-hiya. Hmmm. Turns out wierwille lied to the man, co-oted the man's work as his own. FAMILIAR PATTERN!
The 1st pfal class photo was the beginning documentation of wierwille's SPLINTER GROUP?
quote: I would add that, at least as early as 1980, several of the top brass were in the habit of avoiding having to go through VP to get things done. That was clear from the reaction of JAL, BM, and DEW when they learned that my hubby had gone right to VP with his drinking problem, and got his tushy kicked off of Staff. Their atttitude was, "Aw, ya shouldn't have done it that way, because now we can't overrule his decision."
I know I shouldn't be, but I'm amazed at the men and women who knew all the b.s. and, rather than trying to fix things just put a band aid on it. THEN, continued to stay with the group despite seeing all the treachery. I know many good men and women left, but some are STILL in power and I can only guess that it's because they are getting a free ride at the expense of others' lives. God help them.
No, John Boy, I don't think we were all idiots. We were just conned. Pretty simple. It's done all the time.
Do you think the followers of David Koresh or Jim Jones were all idiots? I don't. They certainly acted in a severely foolish manner at the end, but how did they get there?
They simply accepted the word of a gifted grifter and slowly their perception of reality is altered to the point where just about anything the "holy man" says is regarded as God's Word.
Ridiculous concepts that a rational person would never consider become the norm when you slowly allow the unprovable and superstitious to occupy an honored place in your brain.
Certainly nobody gave as much credence to "believing" and it's consequences before the took PFAL. But look at all the nonsense we went through after we adopted that ridiculous notion as "law". We started living in an alternate universe of VPW's design.
Eventually a lot of us finally started to grow up a bit and saw the delusional WayWorld lifestyle for what it really was. I'm sorry you haven't been able to reach that point yet.
You weren't the only one to test the great truths of the great MOG. I think we probably all did that quite regularly.
Unfortunately, unlike you, I never got the positive results that were promised. "Believe and get healed" - nope, "Go W.O.W. and see God work" - nope, "Give me your money and you'll prosper even more!" - nope. And so it went. YMMV, I assume.
I find it remarkable that - despite the oceans of ink used in promoting such nonsense - there has never, in the entire history of humanity, been a single paranormal event that was observed and recorded under laboratory conditions with proper protocols in place. Not once. Not ever. Gee, why do you suppose that is?
All you have to do is believe, right? Maybe God's just having fun with us.
And Mikey, please, believe whatever you'd like. Just don't go getting a pilot's license anytime soon, O.K.?
You make quite a few good points George. Especially the David Koresh group. At least two of the people there were very smart. They belonged to the ham radio "fraternity", and had the highest earned license you can get. Hardly dumb. Some people study and study and never get it.
I guess smarts just doesn't guarantee that a person is going to immune to being conned.
I always find it interesting to revisit the fantasy world that many of us call "wayworld". It's true that many posters here were involved with twi many years after the time period in which you speak...although many of us WERE there during that time (Evan, Socks, many others...)I also recall the early seventies and know many of the people of whom you speak. I also understand the "frame of mind" that you embrace as evidenced by your posts.
As I shake my head in wonder, I am reminded by your posts that there are still many people who are stumbling around on this planet with similar opinions of Wierwille and the "good old days" of twi...As I have stated before, Wierwille was to Christian ministry what Jeffery Dahmer was to Gourmet cooking...stick around here for awhile and you might be surprised what you learn about the real history of this "Heavenly Sperm Cult"...as a famous attorney once called it. ;)-->
quote:Originally posted by George Aar: Ridiculous concepts that a rational person would never consider become the norm when you slowly allow the unprovable and superstitious to occupy an honored place in your brain.
Certainly nobody gave as much credence to "believing" and it's consequences before the took PFAL. But look at all the nonsense we went through after we adopted that ridiculous notion as "law". We started living in an alternate universe of VPW's design.
So true. :D--> :D-->
Some people "leave" twi......but "the good old days of twi" never leave them. -->
You know? I had a good and wonderful experience in high school too. I was 106th in a class of about 750. Earned higest honors standing with a 3.5 GPA.
What's the point? There are people in my graduating class for whom the years of high school were pure hell. They rue the day they walked into the building. I don't. If I had to do it over again, like go back in time, I would. I'd try to use the wisdom of my years now to guide me in altering some decisions I made back then that I now consider to be mistakes.
See any parallel? Here????
Pyschologists say, and Shakesphere wrote Othello to explore, there is no "reality" but reality for individuals is shaped by their perception of their environment. Dr. Phil says we create our own reality. Our unique point of view and our own contribution or lack thereof does color our view of "reality" for each of us.
I have no rose colored fantastical view of the "good ol' days down on the farm." In fact the ONLY reason we speak of days as being good ol' is that days subsequent to and in comparison were so God DAMN BAD!!!!!!! People post good stuff because there was good stuff to speak of. Its THAT simple. There was bad stuff to speak of also.
That being said, I do believe there is A reality, a central set of facts that cannot be altered, shaped or refuted by anyone's perception. I have my own question(s) regarding this stuff;
#1. Why is that that when we, who were there, who, for the most part, were NOT damaged by the experience, post positives about our experiences, SOME of you who were NOT there, or were hurt there, consistently speculate about how BLIND, DUPED or MISGUIDED we were????
#2. Why is is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO hard for some to accept the CONCEPT that TWI was once good then changed to bad????
#3. If I & others like me were seeing things in such a delusional, rose colored way WHY did they FIRE us? Why did they tell the new faithful to stay AWAY from those that they kicked out????
#4. IF they changed from VPW to LCM and LCM's regime is so obviously bad, is it SO impossible that the direction they turned from was good?
OH! I can answer that one, it went from bad to worse.
There is not a staffer on earth from "the old days" that would ever tell you VPW, the ministry, or even themselves was perfect. We screwed up "all the time." The primary difference from my view is that at one time the HEART of the ministry and VPW was good. We would try our best to fix things if we messed up. NOW. they don't even seem to know they are messed up. There's a major difference.
Let me give you a concrete example of what I'm talking about. WordWolf.
You said I, "...unfairly stereotype the vast majority of us. " No I didn't.
The "You" I referred to was only the "you guys" who DID and do "talk like VP was a complete charlitain...." To my knowledge that is not only NOT the vast majority of you who post here, I don't think that "you" is even YOU!!!
If the shoe doesn't fit DON'T cram your foot in it. It hurts a lot less if you don't do that. YOU does in no way mean or suggest EVERYONE. If the "you" aint you, it then means THEM or THEY to YOU.
Get it?
This, to MY perception of reality suggests that YOU, WordWolf are not seeing, nor thinking clearly. In so doing you project and speculate that I do not see what I saw, nor know what I was looking at. I know how complicated positions can be. Just haven't spoken much on that tip yet.
I looked at the picture and said to Mrs. VPW. "Who's the guy with the BIG KEY???!!!"
I saw pictures of a train w/ some guy who looked like VP praying. I asked, "Is this the guy who got his arm healed?"
She said, "No. This one is him..." and showed me another picture. SHe had a picture of the croud & you could see the guy with his arm hanging, she had another with the same guy, with the hanging arm waving. But then maybe he was faking the hanging part....? I didn't WANT to see anything. I just looked at the freakin' pictures!
Gee whiz man cut yourself a break. You sound like an idiot. Old pictures from the 50's are glossy photo paper with Kodak on the back. Photo paper hasn't changed much at all since then. Paper is made from TREES man! Get a freakin' grip on REALITY!!!
I agree with you that there isn't one (and only one) experience (or conclusion) that now, in hindsight, everyone should accept as universally true. It may seem that that is what others at GS expect from you, and maybe a few do. For the most part, though, I think people are just arguing their points, from their own perspectives, which is what a discussion forum is all about. Right?
My limited view of things (my own experience) is that things went from foolish to intolerable. Just my opinion. The Way was once attractive to me. Then it wasn't anymore; yet it's still attractive to some, which is something else I can't explain. We each went into it with a unique set of expectations, and, for a time, some of those expectations were met.
Anyway, I've enjoyed reading your recollections. I hope you continue to post them.
Thanks for helping out here. I like your no-pulling-punches style, in addition to the great heart you have and remember being there.
Gosh, I'm a little scared of finding out what we two may DISAGREE on,
but I'm calmed to see the many, many things we agree on. :)-->
Back to that photo: is there any chance the Illuminati counterfeited that Kodak paper and substituted a robot Mrs. Wierwille to explain those things to you? ;)-->
Mike, any chance you'll cop to the fact that Piffle was co-opted from another man and wasn't the result of revelation after all?
That is, after all, what happened.
Then it morphed, constantly. Well, until it was codified & ossified into a filmed version. I suppose you could say the morphology was heavy rev. But you could say most anything.
Oh, one other thing for you Bible believer types out there in happy Bible land: It says holy men of God spake. Doesn't that disqualify Wierwille. Before you answer, carefully consider the works of the flesh listed in Gal. 5. Consider how many we know he indulged.
HCW, my contributions haven't reflected on my good times or lack of them while in. I'm just sharing history, first hand accounts, etc. Facts. Just "sharing" some nice things that establish the man as a liar & thief long before you ever knew him. I thought of that liar and thief as a man of God. He wasn't a man of God. Therefore I was conned, pure & simple. Just like the poor victims of his predations in the coach. Conned. Manipulated.
My experience, like everybody else's, was mixed. I've come to believe that it was part of God's plan for me. He has used the experiences for my benefit time & again.
I've answered the question about the sources Dr had for the class
many times here.
Summary:
God gave VPW revelation at times to go to such-and-such a teacher
and learn from him.
Dr reports on tape that some of his teachers had some revelations
from God themselves.
God gave Dr some revelations to omit some material, even from these relatively spiritual teachers. He also was told to change some words here and there.
God also gave Dr some direct revelations of his own.
Dr taught in Unv. of Life (I Thess 1:1) and (II Thess. 1:1) that the reason those epistles have three names attached is because the revelation to Paul was discussed before it was put into written form. It took time for the revelations to be understood well enough to put into written form.
Dr worked these multifaceted revelations to him and to others he learned from as God directed him. Sometimes the changes were to get it more purified, like 7 times in an oven as the Psalm says. Sometimes the changes were due to changes in the revelation as per Key #13 of the 16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit we were taught inthe AC. Revelation can change when the circumstances change.
God owns all of these revelations and voids all of man's copyrights,
as per Deut.29:29
Now pay better attention so I wont have to repeat everything for you. Learn how to use the Advanced Search feature under the "FIND" button to see all the many details I've posted on this, including many of Dr's own words in writing and on tape that you forgot or slipped by you back then.
Hi HCW, didn't want to pop in on your party too soon but I see the java's flowing and the crackers 'n' cheese are well stocked! :D-->
I ran in to the Way in California in '68, through friends who met VPW when he came out here then. Took PFAL in '68/69, and from there a long 21 years with the Way that included all of the ministry programs offered, worked on Way Staff for a few years, y'know, lots of stuff kids. Worked in Joyful Noise with Ted and the gang from it's startup. (I like giving Ted the 'one name' celebrity treatment, like "Cher" or "Oprah" or "Kermit") Lots of good times, good things done and learned and most wonderfully, the opportunity to work with some great people.
There's some mixed up and misunderstood information on that period, nevermind the years before that. But I guess everyone can speak for what they did and saw and their own perspectives, whatever they were. And although I don't think a lot of this stuff matters one way or the other, some certainly does. One comment I'd make that doesn't matter too much but made me wonder about some of your chronology - I read - "Seeing as the first three corps were basically a bunch of drugged out, sexed up hippies when they came to HQ, some individuals of the later groups felt they could handle the tops spots better"...
I have to scratch my head. Most everyone here has heard of Del Duncan of the 1st corps and dunno if anyone who knew him before of after PFAL would call him a hippie although that general description might seem to fit. But Del wasn't a flowery 60's kind of a guy ( he did like the refreshments though) :)-->. Think about the actual people in the 1st 3 corp's HCW - you sound like you knew or know them. They didn't all fall in to that category. So I don't know if you're serious, kidding or jiving.
VPW visited California in 68, one year or so after he put PFAL in the can. Of that gang he met up with, yeah, 'hippies', but keep in mind that most of those people DIDN'T go in to the first 3 Way Corps and those that did, did later, after the first few corps came through.
At any rate, you've got a head of steam going, so have fun. ;)--> I'll catch up here later.
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Twinky
For anyone who might be interested in returning to the original subject of this thread: (It's from the Offshoots subforum: Craig has his own splinter group).
WordWolf
Thanks, Dan.
Me, I was sure he'd seen that specifically in a movie somewhere, but I'm not a
movie maven.
I wonder when TCM or AMC is showing that movie next...
I'd love to review it and see how many things I recognize from it.
Personally, I think the cinema made quite an impression on him.
Supposedly, when he was young, he would tear around on a
motorcycle, almost as if he was Brando in "the Wild One".
(Was it "the Wild One"?)
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HCW
Gee wiz - - where do I start.
EXC. . My new momma in de word. I can never doubt the validity of anyone's personal experiences, especially if I have the smallest expectation that anyone would accept the validity of mine.
I trust that all of you are beginning to see that the TWI you experienced and the one I and older old timers than me lived in are different. In fact the new and current TWI is a perverted mirror image of what we once knew.
Lots of questions:
Most people had no idea of VPW's motorcoach escapades. We bought the first coach in '76. VP had an office in the EOB, in the Wierwille home and one in the coach he soon consolidated his all of his daily workload to his office in the coach. He got tired of forgetting which office what was in, it just made more sense for him to work out of one space and the coach was the logical choice.
Often Howard Allen would drive late through the night (he felt that it was the optimum use of VP's time for him to drive through the night while VP slept so he could use daylight to teach and do business) and VP would be asleep when they pulled in, Mrs. would be asleep in the house. Howard always parked the coach right next to the little shed north of the Wierwille home in precisely the same spot (within inches) on the east side of the courtyard. Howard would secure the coach, plug in the external power and leave the motor running. The hum of the engine was like a lullaby to VP. He used to say he could sleep better in the coach than he could in the house cause the road vibration made it like a rocking crib.
Howard would walk across the BRC parking lot to his house & VP would wake up around 5:30 - 6am and start his workday without having left the coach. Lots of times, VP would come to the BRC for breakfast @ 7. Usually he'd eat in the house w/Mrs. The official HQ workday started @ 8, everyone who worked w/VP had to adjust their workschedule to fit his. He generally started his workday before the rest of us and worked longer.
I lived in "The Upper Room" remember? The doors to the loft faced east, towards the house, I'm a night owl so I saw them come home quite a few times; had a few late night chats w/Howard. Like , "Where you guys been? How long you gonna be home? Any cool stuff happen?" The lights in the coach would be on and VP would be up and working every morning when we got up. It was not unusual to see VP in the morning while we were on our way to the EOB (Executive Office Building) to get showers, (pretty exhiliarating on cool fall mornings, I might add
). We felt privileged to live in the upper room cause most all of the top male leaders in the ministry had lived there in their first days at HQ. We felt like we were carrying on a tradition, it was almost like a fraterinty of "upper room brothers," plus it was like living with VP. He visited us occasionally we'd hear him klunking up the stairs, "Who's livin' in here now?" The he'd tell us some insanely funny story of how Craig, Vince Finnegan, Ralph Dubovsky, or Bo Reahard had done some dumb thing there. or in the barn.
People were always getting called to the coach for some meeting or other, while he was at home or on the road. They would just park It was a completely normal thing so basically the only people who knew of any elicit escapades in the coach were the participants. My opinion and common sense suggests that the aides and perhaps the secretaries may have known what was going on.
Personally, I had wondered occasionally about what business certain people had w/VP. Beyond that, noone not involved really had reason to think anything fishy was going on.
*****************************************
As far as the destruction of the ministry, NONE of the oldtimers had one spec of doubt about that. VP was adamant about successfully passing the ministry on to future generations. I was responsible for the ministry's historical photo files and VP personally OK'ed me to have access to anyone and everything related to the ministry's history. It was my job to organize thousands of pictures and catalog them chronologically and according to what even was what. I had piles of photos and drawer after drawer after drawer of slides of basically every event in the history of TWI. I spent hours with people like Milford & Betty Bowen, Corame Peters, J. Fred Wilson, Don & Wanda W., Mrs. VPW, John & Meg Kish and people in the 1st thru 4th Corps saying, "Who is this and what were they doing? Who shot this?" etc.
I have a pretty unique position in TWI. From the time I spent with the people and the pictures I fell like I was "there." For the better part of ten years '78 - '88, it was my job to be "there" and capture TWI on film for all of you and our children's children. VP always said to me, "Son while you're shooting, think of your children's children and go from there, we are doing all of this for them."
In case you wondered, that's partly why I'm able to pull up these memories from decades ago as if it were yesterday. I don't have any sick allegence to TWI or VP. My allegence is to GOD and the children of Jasmine, Kanisha, Sean, Bradley, and Alana (my children, age 18, 9, 7, 5, & three respectively).
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The people in the first few groups of Way Corps in general are an incredible group of people with a lot of raw and in some cases undeveloped talent. They were, we felt, privileged to get their Corps training directly from VP. They got all of the "top brass" positions, some of the latter single digit corps viewed, by default because there was nobody else, literally in some cases. They were "there" the had heard it from VP. They were the first generation of trained leaders, responsible to; as faithful ones faithfully teach what they were taught.
Seeing as the first three corps were basically a bunch of drugged out, sexed up hippies when they came to HQ, some individuals of the later groups felt they could handle the tops spots better. There was a sense that the top spots went to folks "just because they knew VP." The Corps groups through the years got larger, with more and more accomplished, educated, experienced young people. They were kinda right about the "knowing VP" thing. VP's position was that he would take a person "with a heart for God who didn't know anything" over an MBA any day of the week.
VP felt the MBA would try to tell God what to do when it came to his profession where the person with heart would ASK God what to do cause they didn't know dang about what they were doing! CRAIG was in the category of person who didn't know dang, but he really seemed to have a heart for God in the early years. Craig worked hard to do stuff to put himself in front of VP, some felt more than he actually earned and deserved. Time w/VP was a prized commodity, you always came away from it with more than you had when you went in. Craig was overly greedy w/ VP & took time w/ him. Some felt VP was getting old and didn't see what was going on.
JAL was infinately more experienced and qualified to run the Corps than Craig. The guys running the other root locations, ("locale" was an LCM word, I always felt he used obsure words and coined phrases & did stuff like that trying to look smarter than he was) the regions, corps coordinators, some of the larger limbs and departments, other countries; those guys were impressive; no doubters. VP began talking up the idea that he would not always be President back around the 35th Anniversary PFAL class (or was it Advanced Class '79???). He said that ANY believer was a potential candidate for Pres. The reality though, was that there were only a few guys who were probably really candidates, Johnny Townsend, Vince, Ralph, Bo, John Lynn, Craig, and a couple others.
I noticed (who didn't???) this jealousy thing concerning the "major" leadership positions. Craig made, in my view, to much of that. By the time of the double digit Corps there were no more "major" positions available. I believe, Craig's obsession with his relationship w/ VP actually poisoned the Way Corps. It got so bad that we had to start marketing the twig as "the most important" leadership position in the ministry.
Craig was completely focused on gettin' the President spot, He always acted like he was apprenticing w/ VP for the spot, Other people held tight to their piece of the TWI pie cause there was always some young buck, hotshot Corps grad coming along trained and ready to take your spot. Myself included. We 11th Corps were the biggest group of "hotshot" Corps "ever." We just knew we were "all that AND a BIG honkin' bag of chips, WITH cheeze & salza, thank you."
****************************************
If I were to tell you what I think VP's legacy really is it would .... off a LOT of people. For now let's just say that TWI didn't "turn to $hit in a matter of a couple of years." TWI started on its downhill slope the day Uncle Harry died. Uncle Harry was the true backbone of TWI. Were it not for HIM, his heart, HIS faithful service to God's ministry, TWI would never have been anything. VP knew that, he said that more than a few times in more than a few places.
Uncle Harry was VP's conscious. VP always had a wild hair up his butt, Harry always reigned him in. VP was well aware of his extreme A1 type 1 personality. Uncle Harry was mentor, confidant, big brother and a lot of other good things for VP. As much as everybody in NK didn't like VP EVERYBODY LOVED Harry. The town knew Harry would keep VP from going "too kRAZy."
When Harry died VP died a little too, VP was never the same after that.
We were not fools who staffed HQ, we didn't habg around VP cause he "smiled at us and made us feel special every now and then...." We tested what he taught and it worked. You need to grasp the concept that TWI eroded significantly as VP became less and less involved.
By the time VP died, there were so many, most significantly Donnie and Rosalie Rivenbark and Craig (in that order) who said regularly, "That's how Dr. used to do it, we do it this way now." My last two years on staff were a hellacious, surreal comedy. Crazy, unbelievable errors occurred at every level of the ministry. It was insane? YES. It was surreal, the way that life went on, business as usual, concerning VP's funeral. Us "old timers" & "lifers" were angry about it although few had a position powerful enough to do anything about it.
When Bill Winegarner (ROA Coordinator) left the staff and Rosalie took over as our Trustee Cabinet member, ugh! That was a big deal, BW just didn't give a damn about most any of the crap around HQ. He was in charge of the biggest deal in the ministry. All of the other departments served the Rock of Ages in one way or another. In a practical sense BW was more powerful than LCM. ROA needs this amount of budget - - he didn't really ask - - it was for the ROCK! Most everything revolved around the ROCK and as long as VP was alive ROA was untouchable, the WOW's meant everthing to VP. ROA was for OUR PEOPLE, we HAD to do our best & ROA had to be the best, It got the best of everything. BW ruled the Rock, so... his word carried a lot of clout. When things got bad I went to Bill for help. He was a type of mentor, whe he left things got worse.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I saved the India trip for last.... Mrs. VPW kept all the best of the photos for her Wierwille family photo albums. The ones I had in the historical file were the leftovers that she didn't want. She was wise enough to not let young whippersnappers like me take care of her true family treasures. (Would you? I wouldn't!) She kept all of the best pictures of the India trip. Photos of the stuff she had in the house before it was sold included. (If i remember correctly, she got most if not all of the stuff they sold back BTW. Some people close to the family bought things and kept it for safe keeping, as they thought VP was crazy for asking her to do it.)
I've seen pictures of the India trip. Mrs. had a picture of VP holding the key to the city he received. There are pictures of the cround pressing the train in Jubblpore. The croud was so thick the train could hardly get going. She showed us pictures of VP praying for people and has pictres of the man whose arm got healed. She would not ever let those pictures out of her possession. The trip wasn't BS.
You guys talk like VP was a complete charlitain and we who followed him were star struck, glass-eyed idiots. Men who would do anything for him, just because he asked and women who would spread their legs for him just because he winked.
You insult me, us all, and most notably - yourSELF. Skepticism is healthy, I welcome it. I'm a skeptic myself. Frankly, if more people were as skeptical about TWI as I and a LOT of us were in the late 60's & 70's there probably wouldn't have been the widespread abuse spoken of. Do ya really think we were THAT stupid?
I was first "witnessed to" by my best and most trusted friend. At age 15 I was wise enough that I wouldn't go to twig for MONTHS while he kept asking. Then I finally went to twig to challenge those idiots and pull my best friend OUT of it. TWI had no reputation back then. Nobody could tell you of any worldwide ministry, fabulous headquarters, airplanes, etc. The first time I ever heard VP's voice I thought he sounded wierd & didn't hear a word he said. My Mom was TOTALLY against me getting involved w/TWI. - - He's UGLY! was the first thing I said when I saw him. I challenged EVERYTHING wafers said at first. They said, "Chapter & verse" on everything I retorted to them about "The Bible says...."
It was a full year & 1/2 before I finally agreed to take the class (PFAL). The first time I went to HQ. I said, "It stinks around here." I"m a city kid, fertilizer to me is a bunch of stinky dang on the ground.... Why would anybody BUY dang and SPREAD it all over their YARD??????!!!!!!!!!!!!! I said "THAT??? That's the BRC?" Not impressed. My position changed when I saw signs, miracles and wonders like the way people promised. I was a top high school student, a leader in a huge school with a genius level IQ (what happeneded ???
) My Mom saw a difference in her son & eventually relaxed her position about the ministry, AFTER she had visited HQ herself.
I'm not trying to insult anyone or exault how smart I must have been. Later in the ministry they flat out seduce people; now they take advantage of the good nature of people's hearts and use people who are sincerely searching for God, telling them "We have God, come with us we'll show you."
They sicken me.
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Mike
My turn.
*******
Yikes! I just saw that HCW just stepped in the building after I wrote and posted the following. I thought I'd post this and go to bed, but now I see I have some more reading to do.
*******
Based on shazdancer's post and The Evan's post: Is it any wonder that Dr's last teaching was utterly lost?
Has anyone ever wondered WHY a prophet is always lacking honor in his own country and with his own kin? It's because they see his all his $hit and more.
Everyone's got it, so how's God ever going to get His Word into the world?
God had to get His Word into the world so that His Son could read it and grow up in that Word, but God HAD to select sinful men to write that Word for His Son to eventually read. There's no other way! And the devil, always wants to hide the Word so he magnifies the sin of God's spokesmen to those who are close enough see it, and then he also magnifies the temptations thrown at those spokesmen.
A prophet is not without honor EXCEPT with his own kin and countrymen.
A prophet is ALWAYS without honor with his own kin and countrymen.
And George Aar, yes, God's work behind enemy lines here in the devil's world IS very delicate and is always dismantled as soon as possible, and with the help of those kin and countrymen who are always quickly talked out of believing well before the prophet's death.
Look in the Old Testament for account after account where God's work in human institutions ALWAYS falls apart. In the devil's kingdom it's only God's WORD that's durable!
*****
Reflecting on HCW's posts and my own observations, the relationship between Uncle Harry and VPW was one of father and son.
When Uncle Harry was hospitalized for the second time Dr announced at a lunch meeting that he didn't know how he was going to do the ministry if Harry died. It was the most negative public confession I ever saw come from him.
I knew Uncle Harry MUCH better than I knew VPW. When I first arrived to work at HQ Uncle Harry immediately took me under his wing. He'd take me places to help orient me to the area. He found me a room to rent in St. Mary's. He helped me find a car. He helped me deal with my landlord when a severe problem arose. He had me over for dinner.
I was the first person to ever handle Uncle Harry's autobiography. He walked into the Tape Duplicating Dept one day where I worked and had several cassette tapes in his hand. He asked me if I could be trusted with his life. As he handed the tapes to me he said that they were the only copies of his life story, and that he needed duplicates made. He didn't understand the technology and was worried that they might accidentally get erased. I explained to him how it all worked and how we insured against accidental erasure and he was relieved.
One day I asked Uncle Harry how the Board of Trustees meetings worked. I was wondering if they all got revelation together at the same time, or one at a time, or just one, or what? He told me that it wasn't that way at all. He said that they often fought like cats and dogs with the door shut in private.
But then he said that if it was he and Ermal voting against Vic, but after all the discussions Vic would look him in the eye and tell him "Thus saith the Lord" then THAT'S when he'd change his vote and go Vic's way.
I got from him that Dr did make mistakes, and needed to be firmly opposed many times for having the wrong ideas. Vic was his little brother, and Harry told me that they both grew up together with Harry often looking out for Vic like the father who couldn't be there.
But then he also let me know that God would step in and overrule that whole process at times, and He would let Harry know when it was time to step aside.
What an incredible and delicate balance I saw!
If it weren't for the undeniable fact that I got to intimately know the loving True God from VPW's teaching, a God so different from the Roman Catholic nightmare god I had hounding me with daily guilt and dread for as long as I could remember, I'd have never believed such a delicate balance was real.
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Mike
.
.
.
. . . WOW!
.
.
.
HCW, we gotta talk sometime!
Please e-mail me or PT me, ok?
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WordWolf
Although there are a few people here that believe that, you unfairly
stereotype the vast majority of us.
Most of us know that some people saw deliverance from all sorts of things.
Most of us know there were some good teachings.
Most of us know that most of the people who were involved were involved for
good or best reasons.
We WERE some of those people, remember. We haven't experienced total amnesia
and just memorized a report handed to us by some "cult expert".
We handled the evidence ourselves, we were eyewitnesses to some things.
Our positions vary, but they're a bit more complicated than "vpw sucks!"
========
Personally,
as for the India trip,
I will accept that you saw photographs.
I have not seen these photos, nor have I corroborating reports from others
who saw them. Therefore, I believe you saw something and were told what that
something was. I'm slow to automatically accept that they were
-vpw getting a key to a city
-a crowd thronging a train specifically because vpw is on the train
I've seen many photos on the internet, claimed to be of different things.
(The tsunami is the most recent.)
The vast majority were NOT of what was claimed of them.
Further, I'll address one photo which you did not describe but said you saw,
the man with the healed arm.
Now, supposing vpw's story is 100% true, AND the photo you saw was of that
exact man in that exact encounter, here's what we know about the
photograph....
Someone was using an old-style camera, contemporary to the 1950s.
They had it ready and was prepared to take, or taking, photos of the crowd from
the back of a train about to move. (It takes 2 hands to use such a camera.)
They happened to catch the unrehearsed, unprepared, candid shot of this
miraculous healing, and managed to catch it in the second or two before the
train pulled out, or snapped it of the man waving his arm after a train.
This person then probably had to grab the railings with one firm grip, since
they were on the back of a moving train and could be thrown with NO hands
supporting them.
Mind you, if a picture WAS taken from the back of the train, depending on the
moment it was taken,
it would show vpw praying with a man standing on the ground as the train was
beginning to move,
or a man waving wildly behind a train.
Neither of those exactly guarantees a miraculous healing was in process.
Now, if you'd seen a grainy, home-film off the back of the train, for this
oh-so-cinematic moment, now, THEN we'd have something. You'd see the withered
arm unwither and envigorate, then sprung to full effectiveness in moments.
As it was, you saw a photo of something,
and were told what that photo of something was.
Is it possible that what you were told is not precisely what happened?
Might this have been an instance where someone wanted to see somethng, were
told what they saw, and trusted that account-yet the account was not correct?
A number of people here can detail the miraculous snowstorm vpw claimed
blockaded him into a city-complete with angels on the phone with him.
vpw's account was the only one of that incident that jibes with his story.
All objective accounts show not a single snowflake anywhere near this city.
(He stopped telling this story after a while.)
Finally,
almost nobody here believes that vpw had zero substance to what he taught,
Almost nobody here believes that women threw themselves at him,
or threw themselves on a bed because vpw said so.
To claim that we do, again, unfairly stereotypes us.
Feel free to look around thousands of other threads.
We've discussed relative merits and liabilities to just about everything
connected with twi from before there was a twi.
The only thing we seem to agree on is that lcm had fewer redeeming qualities
than vpw.
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TheEvan
HCW, in your capacity you surely interacted with the historian? My guess is that your historical photo project fell under her. She & I talked a few times. The more she learned the more trouble she had giving the tour. Once she told me she thought that by the time VP left the church his integrity was shot. She couldn't bring herself to write any history past the move to the farm, so she said. Yes, there were serious moral failings back then, any of which would biblically disqualify him from public ministry. Not my call, I'm talking the Bible here.
I understand your experiences are your own, but I think there is some serious rose tinting on your glasses.
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skyrider
HCW....thanks again for posting your experience.
I, for one, certainly do not dispute your first-hand accounts of twi......and some of us probably ate meals in the BRC basement with you. Yes....the upper room, I stayed there too for a short time.
:)-->
Your comment about Uncle Harry being "the true backbone of twi" is interesting. For years, and my postings on Waydale.....I've believed that PFAL '77 was the turning point of twi. Not really considering uncle harry's death as a major factor......but rather vp's age, his moral/spiritual deterioration, increased numbers, and twi mismanagement were all leading factors.
Interesting too.....in your comments on twi president candidates that Walter Cummins is not mentioned. From 1978-1984, the research department was one of vp's "baby projects" where he and Walter worked together. Walter headed up the research team and was highly instrumental in several book releases. He also was "the teacher" on corps nights for many years. Now, granted....Walter didn't have the outgoing charisma of jal or lcm, but he certainly was among the group of candidates.
In your own words, "We were not fools who staffed hq"......how true. Many, many times I spoke out on policies and changes that came down from the trustees. In 1981, when food services moved from the BRC to the OSC.....the "family farm setting" was slipping from view and corporate restructuring was advancing. Even this "signature staple of twi staff" was a jolt of reality that things were bound to change.
To me, it wasn't solely the fact that twi eroded significantly as vpw became less and less involved.....it was MUCH MORE than that. And, even though Don saw the need to appropriate cunning craftsmen for staff, twi needed someone, a ceo-type individual, to bridge the gap of its humble beginnings. Even to this day, twi refuses to adapt to methods used by "the evil world."
In so many ways, twi's teachings and double standards have cemented their efforts from forward progress.
skyrider
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skyrider
And another thing (or two)....
:)-->
While there was a MAJOR need to manage, incorporate and streamline hq procedures......vpw seemed far too involved in other projects and personal priorities to full devote himself to the OVERSIGHT OF TWI HQ. He even stated as such on more than one staff meeting in 1978-79.
1979..........Advanced Class '79 and all fanfare and promotion.
1979-1981.....Ambassador One flights and weekends.
1981-1982.....Living Victoriously and LCM Inauguation as president.
1983-1984.....High Country Caravan and Way Productions.
1984..........Harmony of the Gospels/ Grand Ole Opry.
Twi SERIOUSLY needed someone, besides vpw, to lead it!
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TheEvan
Over the years, both here & on Waydale, I've seen countless posters come in and call the time of their entry into 'the ministry' as the good old days, the days that really were happenin'.
I could argue that socks or me, with our entry in '69 & '70 respectively, came in on the really good old days. So it seemed to me. To me the big change was when Wierwille staged a coup on the Way West&East and coopted those ministries as his own (a familiar pattern if you follow what he did to BG Leonard).
So to you, the big change was when Harry died. Yeah, he was different after that, but i didn't see a marked change in Der Veg, just a continued slide in the direction it had charted years earlier.
For others, their time of entry was dem golden days.
Back to Leonard. Being cataloger of old photos and such, surely you are familiar with the photos of Wierwille's first two "PFAL" classes? Well, most everybody was, as they were published often enough. Did you ever see the rest of them? Like the ones picturing the water baptisms? I did. But i didn't see them in Da Way. I saw them in some old newsletters displayed at BG Leonard's 90th birthday party, which we hosted for him. I was just casually leafing through some old ones and you can imagine the jolt I got when my eyes landed on a familiar picture. It was the old "1st Piffle Class" photo I'd seen so many times.
As you know, Wierwille had recently taken Leonard's class. He returned to O-hiya to teach Leonard's class with Leonard's blessing. The accompanying article was about this Rev. Wierwille teaching CTC's Gifts of the Spirit course to members of his congregatin in O-hiya. Hmmm. Turns out wierwille lied to the man, co-oted the man's work as his own. FAMILIAR PATTERN!
All of which disqualifies him in any way from having been in public ministry of any kind. Period. However you burnish it and photograph it with a warm hazy glow, the conclusion is clear in the harsh light of day.
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skyrider
Evan.....thanks for bringing Leonard into this discussion. There were many discussions on Waydale about Leonard and "the good ole days."
After reading through many of those threads, I realized that lots of twi's "good ole days history" was DOCTORED FOR PUBLIC CONSUMPTION before I arrived on the scene in 1974. And, then you give this first-hand account.....
The 1st pfal class photo was the beginning documentation of wierwille's SPLINTER GROUP?
AMAZING!
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Belle
I know I shouldn't be, but I'm amazed at the men and women who knew all the b.s. and, rather than trying to fix things just put a band aid on it. THEN, continued to stay with the group despite seeing all the treachery. I know many good men and women left, but some are STILL in power and I can only guess that it's because they are getting a free ride at the expense of others' lives. God help them.
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George Aar
No, John Boy, I don't think we were all idiots. We were just conned. Pretty simple. It's done all the time.
Do you think the followers of David Koresh or Jim Jones were all idiots? I don't. They certainly acted in a severely foolish manner at the end, but how did they get there?
They simply accepted the word of a gifted grifter and slowly their perception of reality is altered to the point where just about anything the "holy man" says is regarded as God's Word.
Ridiculous concepts that a rational person would never consider become the norm when you slowly allow the unprovable and superstitious to occupy an honored place in your brain.
Certainly nobody gave as much credence to "believing" and it's consequences before the took PFAL. But look at all the nonsense we went through after we adopted that ridiculous notion as "law". We started living in an alternate universe of VPW's design.
Eventually a lot of us finally started to grow up a bit and saw the delusional WayWorld lifestyle for what it really was. I'm sorry you haven't been able to reach that point yet.
You weren't the only one to test the great truths of the great MOG. I think we probably all did that quite regularly.
Unfortunately, unlike you, I never got the positive results that were promised. "Believe and get healed" - nope, "Go W.O.W. and see God work" - nope, "Give me your money and you'll prosper even more!" - nope. And so it went. YMMV, I assume.
I find it remarkable that - despite the oceans of ink used in promoting such nonsense - there has never, in the entire history of humanity, been a single paranormal event that was observed and recorded under laboratory conditions with proper protocols in place. Not once. Not ever. Gee, why do you suppose that is?
All you have to do is believe, right? Maybe God's just having fun with us.
And Mikey, please, believe whatever you'd like. Just don't go getting a pilot's license anytime soon, O.K.?
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Ham
You make quite a few good points George. Especially the David Koresh group. At least two of the people there were very smart. They belonged to the ham radio "fraternity", and had the highest earned license you can get. Hardly dumb. Some people study and study and never get it.
I guess smarts just doesn't guarantee that a person is going to immune to being conned.
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TheInvisibleDan
(lol) Geo, you just brought to mind a peculiar "urban legend" I heard a few years ago...
Namely, that athiest/non-Christian pilots were always paired up with any Christian pilots,
just in case "the Rapture" occurred while a plane piloted by a Christian was in transit.
A weird urban legend, to be sure...
Danny
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GrouchoMarxJr
HCW...Welcome to the GreaseSpot.
I always find it interesting to revisit the fantasy world that many of us call "wayworld". It's true that many posters here were involved with twi many years after the time period in which you speak...although many of us WERE there during that time (Evan, Socks, many others...)I also recall the early seventies and know many of the people of whom you speak. I also understand the "frame of mind" that you embrace as evidenced by your posts.
As I shake my head in wonder, I am reminded by your posts that there are still many people who are stumbling around on this planet with similar opinions of Wierwille and the "good old days" of twi...As I have stated before, Wierwille was to Christian ministry what Jeffery Dahmer was to Gourmet cooking...stick around here for awhile and you might be surprised what you learn about the real history of this "Heavenly Sperm Cult"...as a famous attorney once called it.
;)-->
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skyrider
So true.
:D--> 
:D-->
Some people "leave" twi......but "the good old days of twi" never leave them.
-->
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HCW
You know? I had a good and wonderful experience in high school too. I was 106th in a class of about 750. Earned higest honors standing with a 3.5 GPA.
What's the point? There are people in my graduating class for whom the years of high school were pure hell. They rue the day they walked into the building. I don't. If I had to do it over again, like go back in time, I would. I'd try to use the wisdom of my years now to guide me in altering some decisions I made back then that I now consider to be mistakes.
See any parallel? Here????
Pyschologists say, and Shakesphere wrote Othello to explore, there is no "reality" but reality for individuals is shaped by their perception of their environment. Dr. Phil says we create our own reality. Our unique point of view and our own contribution or lack thereof does color our view of "reality" for each of us.
I have no rose colored fantastical view of the "good ol' days down on the farm." In fact the ONLY reason we speak of days as being good ol' is that days subsequent to and in comparison were so God DAMN BAD!!!!!!! People post good stuff because there was good stuff to speak of. Its THAT simple. There was bad stuff to speak of also.
That being said, I do believe there is A reality, a central set of facts that cannot be altered, shaped or refuted by anyone's perception. I have my own question(s) regarding this stuff;
#1. Why is that that when we, who were there, who, for the most part, were NOT damaged by the experience, post positives about our experiences, SOME of you who were NOT there, or were hurt there, consistently speculate about how BLIND, DUPED or MISGUIDED we were????
#2. Why is is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO hard for some to accept the CONCEPT that TWI was once good then changed to bad????
#3. If I & others like me were seeing things in such a delusional, rose colored way WHY did they FIRE us? Why did they tell the new faithful to stay AWAY from those that they kicked out????
#4. IF they changed from VPW to LCM and LCM's regime is so obviously bad, is it SO impossible that the direction they turned from was good?
OH! I can answer that one, it went from bad to worse.
There is not a staffer on earth from "the old days" that would ever tell you VPW, the ministry, or even themselves was perfect. We screwed up "all the time." The primary difference from my view is that at one time the HEART of the ministry and VPW was good. We would try our best to fix things if we messed up. NOW. they don't even seem to know they are messed up. There's a major difference.
Let me give you a concrete example of what I'm talking about. WordWolf.
You said I, "...unfairly stereotype the vast majority of us. " No I didn't.
The "You" I referred to was only the "you guys" who DID and do "talk like VP was a complete charlitain...." To my knowledge that is not only NOT the vast majority of you who post here, I don't think that "you" is even YOU!!!
If the shoe doesn't fit DON'T cram your foot in it. It hurts a lot less if you don't do that. YOU does in no way mean or suggest EVERYONE. If the "you" aint you, it then means THEM or THEY to YOU.
Get it?
This, to MY perception of reality suggests that YOU, WordWolf are not seeing, nor thinking clearly. In so doing you project and speculate that I do not see what I saw, nor know what I was looking at. I know how complicated positions can be. Just haven't spoken much on that tip yet.
I looked at the picture and said to Mrs. VPW. "Who's the guy with the BIG KEY???!!!"
I saw pictures of a train w/ some guy who looked like VP praying. I asked, "Is this the guy who got his arm healed?"
She said, "No. This one is him..." and showed me another picture. SHe had a picture of the croud & you could see the guy with his arm hanging, she had another with the same guy, with the hanging arm waving. But then maybe he was faking the hanging part....? I didn't WANT to see anything. I just looked at the freakin' pictures!
Gee whiz man cut yourself a break. You sound like an idiot. Old pictures from the 50's are glossy photo paper with Kodak on the back. Photo paper hasn't changed much at all since then. Paper is made from TREES man! Get a freakin' grip on REALITY!!!
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laleo
HCW: I'm glad you stopped in.
I agree with you that there isn't one (and only one) experience (or conclusion) that now, in hindsight, everyone should accept as universally true. It may seem that that is what others at GS expect from you, and maybe a few do. For the most part, though, I think people are just arguing their points, from their own perspectives, which is what a discussion forum is all about. Right?
My limited view of things (my own experience) is that things went from foolish to intolerable. Just my opinion. The Way was once attractive to me. Then it wasn't anymore; yet it's still attractive to some, which is something else I can't explain. We each went into it with a unique set of expectations, and, for a time, some of those expectations were met.
Anyway, I've enjoyed reading your recollections. I hope you continue to post them.
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Mike
Golly HCW,
Thanks for helping out here. I like your no-pulling-punches style, in addition to the great heart you have and remember being there.
Gosh, I'm a little scared of finding out what we two may DISAGREE on,
but I'm calmed to see the many, many things we agree on.
:)-->
Back to that photo: is there any chance the Illuminati counterfeited that Kodak paper and substituted a robot Mrs. Wierwille to explain those things to you?
;)-->
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TheEvan
Mike, any chance you'll cop to the fact that Piffle was co-opted from another man and wasn't the result of revelation after all?
That is, after all, what happened.
Then it morphed, constantly. Well, until it was codified & ossified into a filmed version. I suppose you could say the morphology was heavy rev. But you could say most anything.
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TheEvan
Oh, one other thing for you Bible believer types out there in happy Bible land: It says holy men of God spake. Doesn't that disqualify Wierwille. Before you answer, carefully consider the works of the flesh listed in Gal. 5. Consider how many we know he indulged.
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TheEvan
HCW, my contributions haven't reflected on my good times or lack of them while in. I'm just sharing history, first hand accounts, etc. Facts. Just "sharing" some nice things that establish the man as a liar & thief long before you ever knew him. I thought of that liar and thief as a man of God. He wasn't a man of God. Therefore I was conned, pure & simple. Just like the poor victims of his predations in the coach. Conned. Manipulated.
My experience, like everybody else's, was mixed. I've come to believe that it was part of God's plan for me. He has used the experiences for my benefit time & again.
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Mike
TheEvan,
I've answered the question about the sources Dr had for the class
many times here.
Summary:
God gave VPW revelation at times to go to such-and-such a teacher
and learn from him.
Dr reports on tape that some of his teachers had some revelations
from God themselves.
God gave Dr some revelations to omit some material, even from these relatively spiritual teachers. He also was told to change some words here and there.
God also gave Dr some direct revelations of his own.
Dr taught in Unv. of Life (I Thess 1:1) and (II Thess. 1:1) that the reason those epistles have three names attached is because the revelation to Paul was discussed before it was put into written form. It took time for the revelations to be understood well enough to put into written form.
Dr worked these multifaceted revelations to him and to others he learned from as God directed him. Sometimes the changes were to get it more purified, like 7 times in an oven as the Psalm says. Sometimes the changes were due to changes in the revelation as per Key #13 of the 16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit we were taught inthe AC. Revelation can change when the circumstances change.
God owns all of these revelations and voids all of man's copyrights,
as per Deut.29:29
Now pay better attention so I wont have to repeat everything for you. Learn how to use the Advanced Search feature under the "FIND" button to see all the many details I've posted on this, including many of Dr's own words in writing and on tape that you forgot or slipped by you back then.
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socks
Hi HCW, didn't want to pop in on your party too soon but I see the java's flowing and the crackers 'n' cheese are well stocked!
:D-->
I ran in to the Way in California in '68, through friends who met VPW when he came out here then. Took PFAL in '68/69, and from there a long 21 years with the Way that included all of the ministry programs offered, worked on Way Staff for a few years, y'know, lots of stuff kids. Worked in Joyful Noise with Ted and the gang from it's startup. (I like giving Ted the 'one name' celebrity treatment, like "Cher" or "Oprah" or "Kermit") Lots of good times, good things done and learned and most wonderfully, the opportunity to work with some great people.
There's some mixed up and misunderstood information on that period, nevermind the years before that. But I guess everyone can speak for what they did and saw and their own perspectives, whatever they were. And although I don't think a lot of this stuff matters one way or the other, some certainly does. One comment I'd make that doesn't matter too much but made me wonder about some of your chronology - I read - "Seeing as the first three corps were basically a bunch of drugged out, sexed up hippies when they came to HQ, some individuals of the later groups felt they could handle the tops spots better"...
I have to scratch my head. Most everyone here has heard of Del Duncan of the 1st corps and dunno if anyone who knew him before of after PFAL would call him a hippie although that general description might seem to fit. But Del wasn't a flowery 60's kind of a guy ( he did like the refreshments though)
:)-->. Think about the actual people in the 1st 3 corp's HCW - you sound like you knew or know them. They didn't all fall in to that category. So I don't know if you're serious, kidding or jiving.
VPW visited California in 68, one year or so after he put PFAL in the can. Of that gang he met up with, yeah, 'hippies', but keep in mind that most of those people DIDN'T go in to the first 3 Way Corps and those that did, did later, after the first few corps came through.
At any rate, you've got a head of steam going, so have fun.
;)--> I'll catch up here later.
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