Wow! Thanks HCW. That's a TWI I never knew. I didn't get involved until the 90's and we never, but never experienced anything like what you described. :(--> I was just so "hungry" to learn how to read the Bible that I dismissed so many ugly things I saw and red flags flying in my face.
I can see better now how people wax nostalgic about "the good old days". We never had any "good old days". It also makes more sense now when people say, "He's Craig to me. Always has been." He was never Craig to me and I could never picture him calling "friends" much less calling them to "go play".
Everything has always been so formal and not necessarily, genuinely warm and friendly regarding my experience. In fact, I already thought things were pretty formal with the original LC in my area and then we got a new couple coming into town and all the WC started freaking out and telling each other they had better go back and refresh themselves on everything they learned in their training. They quit having casual informal meetings. Everything became "casually nice" or "dress your best" and all were always such "on your best behavior" events that you never really could relax.
I think that's why there never was any of that comeraderie among the TWIts that I knew. The only ones who seemed to be really good friends were those who had been involved for ages. This could also be why the new people don't stick around very long and why the youngsters leave as soon as they can. The youngsters grow up realizing they are "different", "odd" and missing out on so much and that's the bond they have, so they rely on each other when they get old enough to help them leave. (IMO - I'm just guessing about those raised in TWI)
Anyway, thanks a bunch. Your post showed me a lot more about TWI in the early years that helps me envision it more clearly.
OM, lay off, dude! He just got here and he's merely recounting HIS experiences and HIS perceptions. I didn't think he slammed Don at all, he just told it like it was. VP was a horrible dad to him and I can't say I blame him about wanting to get out on his own and have nothing to do with VP. Hearing how badly VP treated him and how upset Don was about the trip to India was good for me to hear. I always wondered about that stuff and hearing Don disagreed with all the decisions regarding that move and especially leaving JP behind shows me that at least someone in that family thought it was an idiotic and unnatural thing to do.
Maybe you just got up on the wrong side of the bed, or accidently had decaffinated coffee. ;)-->
I liked Donnie too, but I don't think HCW slammed him. Donnie was human, and the good work that VPW did do was very demanding on all those close to him. Then again, his error was all the more demanding.
The New Knoxville culture was pretty demanding too, but in the opposite direction, and I can see young Donnie both loving his dad and yet deeply resenting some of his moves.
VPW did earn my love and respect, but like Donnie, I also had plenty of reservations towards vpw. He was a very unusual man, and he had a very unusual job to do.
quote:I don't believe Don Wierwille was EVER committed to the ministry of the Word.
What do you call that?
I wouldn't disparage ANYBODY like that, much less a guy who generally has a good report with folks, and a great report with some folks like me. Sounds like a significant personal vendetta to me. Oh well Don prolly never kissed his butt or something.
In every master apprentice relationship there comes a time when the apprentice feels that he has listened long enough and is now capable of striking out on his own--maybe even taking the masters place.
Whether you are going to end up with crazed brooms slopping water all over the house usually does not enter the equation until he is bailing the rowboat
OM, that is NOT a slam. It's an observation. So what if Don wasn't ever committed to the ministry? THAT would give me more respect for the guy, not less.
And your sweet Uncle Don wasn't an angel. REad the thread about Uncle Howard's Mattress or something or other. Don took after his daddy in more ways than one and is NOT someone to put too high on a pedestal.
Again, you generalize and attempt to discredit anyone who has a different opinion or experience than you. --> You amaze me, man.
Oldies, I didn't hear anyone say that Don was incompetent or inadequate- twi was VP's passion and it did not have to be the passion of his children. Hypothetically, I have have no interest in going into my father vocation/ business but if I did out of obligation I would be competent but it would not be my "bliss".
Is is not God who gives a calling and the anointing and grace to the individual? And do we not all have different strengths and weaknesses?
Don always struck me as a kind man (which is more than I can say for you right now) and I don't see that it matters one whit if being "commited to the ministry of the word" was his thing or not.
quote:OM, that is NOT a slam. It's an observation. So what if Don wasn't ever committed to the ministry? THAT would give me more respect for the guy, not less.
The statement was that he wasn't ever committed to the "ministry of the Word"... In other words, he didn't care about God's word moving and blessing people, all he cared about was building a corporation? That's an insult and evil communication about a decent guy, who did care that folks were blessed. It's like if I said something about your commitment, you a faithful believer for years and years wanting the word to move, but I say all your concerned about was meeting your own needs and didn't care about ANYTHING else. That's a slam.
quote:And your sweet Uncle Don wasn't an angel. Read the thread about Uncle Howard's Mattress or something or other. Don took after his daddy in more ways than one and is NOT someone to put too high on a pedestal.
I've heard a couple of instances of extra-marital affairs. NOTHING like what VP is accused of. But the disparagement was questioning Don's commitment to God; not that he wasn't an angel. None of us were (or are) angels.
quote: Again, you generalize and attempt to discredit anyone who has a different opinion or experience than you. You amaze me, man.
I just saw as strange somebody coming on here having all kinds of nice and understanding things to say about VPW and LCM, but cuts DEW down. Sounds pretty cockeyed to me. Kind of hypocritical too. But thats the way personal vendettas go I suppose.
You amaze me too, Belle. I hope we can learn from each other.
quote:Don always struck me as a kind man and perhaps that was all God needed him to be.
Hopefull, since Don always struck you as a kind man, does he deserve to be labelled as not having any commitment to the Word, and all he wanted was to build a corporation? How kind a man is that?
From the sidelines, this is a tough call: though I see Oldiesman's point (it was an insult, hands down, no other way to read it, imo), I don't know if it was true or not because HCW (welcome, by the way) was there and I was not. It seems that his opinion was formed over time, not through second or thirdhand accounts. Might be interesting to know if HCW is a Geerite, only because what he said jibes with what POP said about Don.
In the end, I put this in the "I don't get a vote" category. From what I know of the surviving Wierwille children, they're great folks and I pray they are all doing well.
Maybe it's my non-theist mindset, but I don't see the statement as any sort of insult. It's a simple statement of fact. Well, facts as HCW saw them.
I was never bowled over by DEW's "commitment to the Wurd" either. He did seem like a very tenderhearted guy most of the time. Maybe that was just an act? I dunno.
As far as the good 'ole daze at WayWorld go, well, I'm a lot older and a little wiser now. The Vickster was no doubt an accomplished grifter and salesman. I have no doubt he could manipulate people with a tremendous skill and subtlety. That's what conmen do.
Funny, he used that same line on me as well (about being able to "take it"), and on several others I know. Pretty slick, chew somebody's a$$ out and then turn it into a compliment. Pure genius...
Oh well Don prolly never kissed his butt or something.
and just why is that probable? For someone who constantly demands proof and dismisses anyone else's opinions when they don't line up with his own, that's quite a statement.
Nope. I'm not a Geerite or any other "ite." not involved with any splinter group either.
You know? If Donnie Weirwille HAD kissed my butt it may have felt sweet on my posterior for a time.... What he actually DID do concerning my butt was SAVE it. That resulted in me still having a butt for some of you guys to kick and others of you to support.
Thanks for the kind words and I welcome even the MOST harse, terse and even downright MEANest comment anyone has about anything I say, do or even THINK. OK?
If anyone presents a difference of opinion, I WANT to hear it.
Seen something I haven't? Cool, tell me about it.
Know something I don't, teach me.
Believe something different than I do? Keep it to yourself. No, just kiddin. :)-->
If I'm wrong I'll admit it. I don't believe I know everything. I KNOW I haven't seen everything. I'm just sharing my experiences & thoughts.
I'm not trashing Donnie. Not criticising either, no personal vendetta or axe to grind. I used to wonder what happened? How did the whole thing crumble like it did? After POP fingers were pointed in every direction. There was even a school of thought that "WE," the believers, killed VPW. It was said that VPW died of a broken heart.... Lotza craziness abounded.
My position on Donnie is based on recalling many conversations w/him, comments he made in staff meetings, sharing times, etc. I aint mad at him. The clincher for me was hearing him talk about how he felt about that India trip thing. Personally, I'm not sure if he ever really got over his anger with his dad about it.
In all of the times he and VPW talked about that trip I don't recall either of them talking about resolving Donnie's feelings about it. In fact, I remember Donnie saying things to the contrary. Lots of little comments, remarks, well placed quips & barbs over the years that one day it hit me.... They are BOTH still mad about that! It came together for me after having children of my own, working to keep from developing unresolved issues with them. And observing my wife and her father both NOT dealing with, not resolving their issues....They were saying the same types of things I heard coming from Donnie, VP, et al.
Don was mad at his Dad for doin' it. VPW was mad at Donnie for being mad at him. VP was too stubborn to just apologise & say something like, "I'm sorry for hurting you and YOUR Mom. I really felt it was something I had to do...." VP would say stuff like that, in public. There were more than a few times I watched Donnie do a "slow burn" when his dad said stuff like that in meetings. It seemed to me like VP made what Donnie considered to be feeble attempts to apologize from the lecturn, doing what he should have done personally and privately with his son. The resentment was there, I saw it myself.
Donnie was a highly intelligent, estute, eloquent, educated, well read, classy and tenderhearted man. I felt an affinity w/him as I wholeheartedly agreed w/his position that every staff position in the ministry should be manned by trained, experienced professionals - just like corporations "in the world." We talked about it, personally over coffee or tea (I'm a tea drinker) at his house, more than a few times. "Dad doesn't get that." Donnie told me, "He thinks all you need is God and a "heart" to do it."
"Yeah right." I'd say, "No offense, but most of the design & art in the "old stuff" is pretty damn crappy."
"...But is has HEART!" he'd say. We'd laugh out loud! He'd tell some of the stories about how people with God & a heart to do..." broke equipment, drove tractors into the pond, flooded rooms, burnt food and served it at meals in the BRC basement, almost squished people by dropping heavy stuff off the loft in the barns - - stuff like that. We agreed that the ministry needs "cunning craftsmen" like in the Old Testament, people who have God, a heart to do AND specific high level abilities to do the job at hand. We weren't trashing anybody, just talking about legitimate needs of the ministry. There are at least a blue million hilarious stories of staff screwups. We'd bust a gut talking about 'em all the time. I have a few stories of my own TWI screwups.
Back to our regularly scheduled program....
Donnie felt that the ministry had grown to the point where we needed to replace some staffers with pro's. God-inspired professionals. This was another point of contentention w/ VP. He felt that the ministry could simply "choose ... men of honest report, full of the spirit, that we may set about this business." The Way Corps trains spiritual leaders, teachers of God's Word to move the Word; you don't need college for that, PERIOD. was VP's position. Why should the Corps "leave this work to serve tables?"
Hence the advent of the College Division; to educate more "secularly oriented" people in spiritual things.
I think Donnie was smarter than his dad. VP pushed the idea that a person should go WOW before going to college. Donnie advocated getting your college education. Donnie never went WOW... hmmm... or Corps.... Told you he was smart.
There's a video TWI produced that has Donnie speaking about how he felt about the India trip. When I watched it once after having been outta TWI long enough to way-head thinking out of my brain. It was SOOO obvious to me that at the time of that interview Donnie was "still feelin' it."
Who could blame him? Things Mrs. VPW had said while showing us Wierwille family photos came back to me & it suddenly all fit. VP was relentless in wanting Donnie home. I don't blame him for not being into the "ministry of the Word." In his own words, VP's kids never asked to be involved in their dad's ministry. Especially the baby JP. He felt that his mom leaving her baby like that dealt both her and the baby a huge unnecessary blow, damaging their family. It was selfish, his own father was willing to sacrifice his wife and family for "the ministry of the word????"
Donnie wanted to be an educator not vice president of The Way. Its not inconceivable nor even unusual for second generation of business owners to rebel against dad's business. In fact it is a statistical truth that son's of business owners usually mess up the business. I'm not saying Donnie messed up TWI. I'm saying that he came back into it determined to do things his way with a healthy dose of unresolved anger at his dad.
VP's behavior didn't help. He could be a bull in a china shop, especially in the early days. He was an impulsive hothead, extremely high strung with a shoot-first ask questions later attitude. The original corporate structure of TWI provided for every corporate decision requiring a two-thirds majority vote of the trustees. Uncle Harry was the only person in the world who could really handle VP. He had good business sense and Ermal Owens was so laid back and wise that he seemed to never speak. A man of incredibly few words. The installed the three of them specifically so Harry & Ermal could vote down VP's crazy ideas. "He had a million of 'em."
Craig adopted the worst of VP's personality traits; the ones that fed into his own overly abundant ego. It was cool and fun & all, that Craig was one of the guys and played ball w/us, but... HE always HAD to play quarterback! Just because he was Craig. People would offer VPW favors usually in RESPONSE to what VPW did for them, because of who he was to them. Craig would require favors because he was Craig.
Thanks again! This is more confirmation of many things I knew or suspected, and some of which I have posted.
All of God's spokesmen were and are human, with human flesh, and human error sewn in. I know that's true of me, my old man nature that is. We're all called in PFAL to be God's spokesmen.
Praise God that he can work with us in spite of our flesh. I expect that God can give me revelation, not because I deserve it, or because I am skilled at it, but because I WANT it and because God WANTS to give it.
Some things impossible for men ARE possible for God.
Praise God for the revelations he gave to that old flesh man vpw, foreknowing that vpw would then put them in writing (with help from his team who helped God filter vpw out of the equation) for us to know God's Word like it has not been known since the first century!
Now all you posters who want to complain about me interrupting this thread just cool it. --> I am done posting here for now so that I can sit back, listen, and learn more from those like HCW who were there. :)-->
HCW, you have become one of my fav writers here on Greasespot, and you only just begun, hopefully.
You have shed some light on VPW, the man, the myth, the legend. What do you think, honestly? Do you think he was right, that he was tapped into something Godly? That HQ was once a blessed place to be? Or do you think it was some sort of weird farce, another hippie christian cult that sprang up and ran its course entirely too long? Was he just a father figure to some thousands of young hippies who disappointed their conservative mommy and daddy?
I was born into the ministry and knew VP as well as a young person could. I loved being around him, and i have very good instincts when it comes to people. I mimicked him in the mirror, with my little bible, and said "Thaaat's riigght!!" Us mini-corps spent alot of time with him when he came to visit rome city, and i remember loving every minute of it. When VPW died, the ministry changed, and has never been the same since. The only thing close to the old days was the Rock, which was still amazing till the end, until LCM shut that down as well.
LCM was always too abrasive to listen to, when i had to sit through teachings. VPW at least, was a great teacher, i always payed attention until he was done. Just things that i think about, that prevent me from writing off VPW as something special. Was he actually what alot of folks said he was, or was it me just being young and naive?
So, what is your opinion on the authenticity of VPW's ministry? Even though he had many women and all of that, did that make a difference or what? Most folks still admire/respect VPW, or they hate him for his own hypocrisy.
I enjoyed your insights into the prime years of TWI. I was in about the same time, '72-'84.
I am intrigued by this statement, among others:
quote:We all loved VPW. He actually earned the love, respect and loyalty he got. He had a way of making you feel special when you were around him.
Combine it with this one
quote:Yeah he was a closet (or should I say motorcoach) horndog to the Nth degree
I think it is fair to say that VPW was a male chauvinist, or call him a "man's man" if you want to put a nicer spin on it. He may have said nice things about women from the lectern, but in person he used them, beginning with his wife. Provide VP with admiration or sex when he wanted, and shut up the rest of the time, or take a hike.
If you are wondering about the destruction of the ministry, I'd start with VP's attitude toward half the people who were in that ministry, and the example he set for those who would follow.
I would be curious to hear about your take on how people viewed VPW and his motorcoach escapades. It seems to me that a lot of people knew about it (I didn't). And yet it was allowed to continue.
I also enjoyed hearing that Don stuck up for his mother and the family about the India trip. Like WordWolf, I tend to think VP may have embellished that trip somewhat (no WOW's sent to India, for one thing), and a man of God making his wife abandon their newborn is a huge red flag to me.
To help answer the question about Craig and VP's relationship, I would add that, at least as early as 1980, several of the top brass were in the habit of avoiding having to go through VP to get things done. That was clear from the reaction of JAL, BM, and DEW when they learned that my hubby had gone right to VP with his drinking problem, and got his tushy kicked off of Staff. Their atttitude was, "Aw, ya shouldn't have done it that way, because now we can't overrule his decision."
It seems to me that respect for VPW had diminished for those who had their own piece of the TWI pie to protect. Perhaps that was true of Craig as well.
Yeah, you've got to wonder about the man's legacy just a little, don't you?
If he was really God's righthand man here on earth, why did everything he build turn to $hit in a matter of a couple of years?
Is Almighty God's work so delicate so as to be completely undone in such a short time? Certainly that seemed to be a tenet of Wierwillian dogma. After all, the "First Century Church" lost the "greatness of the mystery" in just a few years, didn't it?
There's been so many of Wierwille's ilk that have come and gone over the years, you'd think we'd be wise to them by now. Evidently not.
If he smiled at us and made us feel special every now and then, he must have been telling us the truth, right?
"I was on the back of a train in Jubbulpore. As it was about to
pull out, a man who's not a Christian asked me for healing. I
prayed, and he got a miracle of healing. I shouted to him about
his being healed in the name of Jesus Christ, just as the train
was pulling out." Such a cinematic scene.
Indeed, WW, very cinematic!
It always reminded me of the last scene to that 1940s era movie, Abe Lincoln in Illinois -(that I often confuse with "Young Mr. Lincoln", 1939) which I haven't seen in decades.
Abe Lincoln (who sports his newly grown, trademark facial hairs) is standing on the caboose, finishing a speech as the train is
slowly pulling away from the station...I bet this picture made quite the impression upon "Young Mr. Wierwille".
I wonder if there's anything in that movie about Abe receiving a key to the city? As I said, it's been years...
The camera pans from the face of the stalwart Man of God, seated dignified in his railcar to the station landing with the Jain priest, tears streaming down his face, waving goodbye with his newly-healed arm - "But I still don't believe in your Jesus!" he mouths as the train pulls out.
quote:Uncle Harry was the only person in the world who could really handle VP. He had good business sense and Ermal Owens was so laid back and wise that he seemed to never speak. A man of incredibly few words. They installed the three of them specifically so Harry & Ermal could vote down VP's crazy ideas. "He had a million of 'em."
HCW.....that's insightful!
It never ceases to amaze me the "father figure -- crazy man" observations from so many in the life of victor paul wierwille that are POLES APART.
speaking of their relationship, after vp died, i told craig, "you have a chance to do it right" (regarding hurtful misuse of power "sexually"). i don't think he agreed with me....
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Twinky
For anyone who might be interested in returning to the original subject of this thread: (It's from the Offshoots subforum: Craig has his own splinter group).
Belle
Wow! Thanks HCW. That's a TWI I never knew. I didn't get involved until the 90's and we never, but never experienced anything like what you described.
:(--> I was just so "hungry" to learn how to read the Bible that I dismissed so many ugly things I saw and red flags flying in my face.
I can see better now how people wax nostalgic about "the good old days". We never had any "good old days". It also makes more sense now when people say, "He's Craig to me. Always has been." He was never Craig to me and I could never picture him calling "friends" much less calling them to "go play".
Everything has always been so formal and not necessarily, genuinely warm and friendly regarding my experience. In fact, I already thought things were pretty formal with the original LC in my area and then we got a new couple coming into town and all the WC started freaking out and telling each other they had better go back and refresh themselves on everything they learned in their training. They quit having casual informal meetings. Everything became "casually nice" or "dress your best" and all were always such "on your best behavior" events that you never really could relax.
I think that's why there never was any of that comeraderie among the TWIts that I knew. The only ones who seemed to be really good friends were those who had been involved for ages. This could also be why the new people don't stick around very long and why the youngsters leave as soon as they can. The youngsters grow up realizing they are "different", "odd" and missing out on so much and that's the bond they have, so they rely on each other when they get old enough to help them leave. (IMO - I'm just guessing about those raised in TWI)
Anyway, thanks a bunch. Your post showed me a lot more about TWI in the early years that helps me envision it more clearly.
OM, lay off, dude! He just got here and he's merely recounting HIS experiences and HIS perceptions.
I didn't think he slammed Don at all, he just told it like it was. VP was a horrible dad to him and I can't say I blame him about wanting to get out on his own and have nothing to do with VP. Hearing how badly VP treated him and how upset Don was about the trip to India was good for me to hear. I always wondered about that stuff and hearing Don disagreed with all the decisions regarding that move and especially leaving JP behind shows me that at least someone in that family thought it was an idiotic and unnatural thing to do.
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Mike
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.......Bravo, HCW!
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Mike
Oldiesman,
Maybe you just got up on the wrong side of the bed, or accidently had decaffinated coffee.
;)-->
I liked Donnie too, but I don't think HCW slammed him. Donnie was human, and the good work that VPW did do was very demanding on all those close to him. Then again, his error was all the more demanding.
The New Knoxville culture was pretty demanding too, but in the opposite direction, and I can see young Donnie both loving his dad and yet deeply resenting some of his moves.
VPW did earn my love and respect, but like Donnie, I also had plenty of reservations towards vpw. He was a very unusual man, and he had a very unusual job to do.
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oldiesman
Of course HCW slammed him.
What do you call that?I wouldn't disparage ANYBODY like that, much less a guy who generally has a good report with folks, and a great report with some folks like me. Sounds like a significant personal vendetta to me. Oh well Don prolly never kissed his butt or something.
Otherwise, hi Mike
:)-->
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templelady
In every master apprentice relationship there comes a time when the apprentice feels that he has listened long enough and is now capable of striking out on his own--maybe even taking the masters place.
Whether you are going to end up with crazed brooms slopping water all over the house usually does not enter the equation until he is bailing the rowboat
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Belle
OM, that is NOT a slam. It's an observation. So what if Don wasn't ever committed to the ministry? THAT would give me more respect for the guy, not less.
And your sweet Uncle Don wasn't an angel. REad the thread about Uncle Howard's Mattress or something or other. Don took after his daddy in more ways than one and is NOT someone to put too high on a pedestal.
Again, you generalize and attempt to discredit anyone who has a different opinion or experience than you.
--> You amaze me, man.
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Hopefull
Oldies, I didn't hear anyone say that Don was incompetent or inadequate- twi was VP's passion and it did not have to be the passion of his children. Hypothetically, I have have no interest in going into my father vocation/ business but if I did out of obligation I would be competent but it would not be my "bliss".
Is is not God who gives a calling and the anointing and grace to the individual? And do we not all have different strengths and weaknesses?
Don always struck me as a kind man (which is more than I can say for you right now) and I don't see that it matters one whit if being "commited to the ministry of the word" was his thing or not.
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oldiesman
You amaze me too, Belle. I hope we can learn from each other.
Hopefull, since Don always struck you as a kind man, does he deserve to be labelled as not having any commitment to the Word, and all he wanted was to build a corporation? How kind a man is that?Thanks for sharing.
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Raf
From the sidelines, this is a tough call: though I see Oldiesman's point (it was an insult, hands down, no other way to read it, imo), I don't know if it was true or not because HCW (welcome, by the way) was there and I was not. It seems that his opinion was formed over time, not through second or thirdhand accounts. Might be interesting to know if HCW is a Geerite, only because what he said jibes with what POP said about Don.
In the end, I put this in the "I don't get a vote" category. From what I know of the surviving Wierwille children, they're great folks and I pray they are all doing well.
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George Aar
Maybe it's my non-theist mindset, but I don't see the statement as any sort of insult. It's a simple statement of fact. Well, facts as HCW saw them.
I was never bowled over by DEW's "commitment to the Wurd" either. He did seem like a very tenderhearted guy most of the time. Maybe that was just an act? I dunno.
As far as the good 'ole daze at WayWorld go, well, I'm a lot older and a little wiser now. The Vickster was no doubt an accomplished grifter and salesman. I have no doubt he could manipulate people with a tremendous skill and subtlety. That's what conmen do.
Funny, he used that same line on me as well (about being able to "take it"), and on several others I know. Pretty slick, chew somebody's a$$ out and then turn it into a compliment. Pure genius...
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Oakspear
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HCW
Nope. I'm not a Geerite or any other "ite." not involved with any splinter group either.
You know? If Donnie Weirwille HAD kissed my butt it may have felt sweet on my posterior for a time.... What he actually DID do concerning my butt was SAVE it. That resulted in me still having a butt for some of you guys to kick and others of you to support.
Thanks for the kind words and I welcome even the MOST harse, terse and even downright MEANest comment anyone has about anything I say, do or even THINK. OK?
If anyone presents a difference of opinion, I WANT to hear it.
Seen something I haven't? Cool, tell me about it.
Know something I don't, teach me.
Believe something different than I do? Keep it to yourself. No, just kiddin.
:)-->
If I'm wrong I'll admit it. I don't believe I know everything. I KNOW I haven't seen everything. I'm just sharing my experiences & thoughts.
I'm not trashing Donnie. Not criticising either, no personal vendetta or axe to grind. I used to wonder what happened? How did the whole thing crumble like it did? After POP fingers were pointed in every direction. There was even a school of thought that "WE," the believers, killed VPW. It was said that VPW died of a broken heart.... Lotza craziness abounded.
My position on Donnie is based on recalling many conversations w/him, comments he made in staff meetings, sharing times, etc. I aint mad at him. The clincher for me was hearing him talk about how he felt about that India trip thing. Personally, I'm not sure if he ever really got over his anger with his dad about it.
In all of the times he and VPW talked about that trip I don't recall either of them talking about resolving Donnie's feelings about it. In fact, I remember Donnie saying things to the contrary. Lots of little comments, remarks, well placed quips & barbs over the years that one day it hit me.... They are BOTH still mad about that! It came together for me after having children of my own, working to keep from developing unresolved issues with them. And observing my wife and her father both NOT dealing with, not resolving their issues....They were saying the same types of things I heard coming from Donnie, VP, et al.
Don was mad at his Dad for doin' it. VPW was mad at Donnie for being mad at him. VP was too stubborn to just apologise & say something like, "I'm sorry for hurting you and YOUR Mom. I really felt it was something I had to do...." VP would say stuff like that, in public. There were more than a few times I watched Donnie do a "slow burn" when his dad said stuff like that in meetings. It seemed to me like VP made what Donnie considered to be feeble attempts to apologize from the lecturn, doing what he should have done personally and privately with his son. The resentment was there, I saw it myself.
Donnie was a highly intelligent, estute, eloquent, educated, well read, classy and tenderhearted man. I felt an affinity w/him as I wholeheartedly agreed w/his position that every staff position in the ministry should be manned by trained, experienced professionals - just like corporations "in the world." We talked about it, personally over coffee or tea (I'm a tea drinker) at his house, more than a few times. "Dad doesn't get that." Donnie told me, "He thinks all you need is God and a "heart" to do it."
"Yeah right." I'd say, "No offense, but most of the design & art in the "old stuff" is pretty damn crappy."
"...But is has HEART!" he'd say. We'd laugh out loud! He'd tell some of the stories about how people with God & a heart to do..." broke equipment, drove tractors into the pond, flooded rooms, burnt food and served it at meals in the BRC basement, almost squished people by dropping heavy stuff off the loft in the barns - - stuff like that. We agreed that the ministry needs "cunning craftsmen" like in the Old Testament, people who have God, a heart to do AND specific high level abilities to do the job at hand. We weren't trashing anybody, just talking about legitimate needs of the ministry. There are at least a blue million hilarious stories of staff screwups. We'd bust a gut talking about 'em all the time. I have a few stories of my own TWI screwups.
Back to our regularly scheduled program....
Donnie felt that the ministry had grown to the point where we needed to replace some staffers with pro's. God-inspired professionals. This was another point of contentention w/ VP. He felt that the ministry could simply "choose ... men of honest report, full of the spirit, that we may set about this business." The Way Corps trains spiritual leaders, teachers of God's Word to move the Word; you don't need college for that, PERIOD. was VP's position. Why should the Corps "leave this work to serve tables?"
Hence the advent of the College Division; to educate more "secularly oriented" people in spiritual things.
I think Donnie was smarter than his dad. VP pushed the idea that a person should go WOW before going to college. Donnie advocated getting your college education. Donnie never went WOW... hmmm... or Corps.... Told you he was smart.
There's a video TWI produced that has Donnie speaking about how he felt about the India trip. When I watched it once after having been outta TWI long enough to way-head thinking out of my brain. It was SOOO obvious to me that at the time of that interview Donnie was "still feelin' it."
Who could blame him? Things Mrs. VPW had said while showing us Wierwille family photos came back to me & it suddenly all fit. VP was relentless in wanting Donnie home. I don't blame him for not being into the "ministry of the Word." In his own words, VP's kids never asked to be involved in their dad's ministry. Especially the baby JP. He felt that his mom leaving her baby like that dealt both her and the baby a huge unnecessary blow, damaging their family. It was selfish, his own father was willing to sacrifice his wife and family for "the ministry of the word????"
Donnie wanted to be an educator not vice president of The Way. Its not inconceivable nor even unusual for second generation of business owners to rebel against dad's business. In fact it is a statistical truth that son's of business owners usually mess up the business. I'm not saying Donnie messed up TWI. I'm saying that he came back into it determined to do things his way with a healthy dose of unresolved anger at his dad.
VP's behavior didn't help. He could be a bull in a china shop, especially in the early days. He was an impulsive hothead, extremely high strung with a shoot-first ask questions later attitude. The original corporate structure of TWI provided for every corporate decision requiring a two-thirds majority vote of the trustees. Uncle Harry was the only person in the world who could really handle VP. He had good business sense and Ermal Owens was so laid back and wise that he seemed to never speak. A man of incredibly few words. The installed the three of them specifically so Harry & Ermal could vote down VP's crazy ideas. "He had a million of 'em."
Craig adopted the worst of VP's personality traits; the ones that fed into his own overly abundant ego. It was cool and fun & all, that Craig was one of the guys and played ball w/us, but... HE always HAD to play quarterback! Just because he was Craig. People would offer VPW favors usually in RESPONSE to what VPW did for them, because of who he was to them. Craig would require favors because he was Craig.
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Mike
HCW,
Thanks again! This is more confirmation of many things I knew or suspected, and some of which I have posted.
All of God's spokesmen were and are human, with human flesh, and human error sewn in. I know that's true of me, my old man nature that is. We're all called in PFAL to be God's spokesmen.
Praise God that he can work with us in spite of our flesh. I expect that God can give me revelation, not because I deserve it, or because I am skilled at it, but because I WANT it and because God WANTS to give it.
Some things impossible for men ARE possible for God.
Praise God for the revelations he gave to that old flesh man vpw, foreknowing that vpw would then put them in writing (with help from his team who helped God filter vpw out of the equation) for us to know God's Word like it has not been known since the first century!
Now all you posters who want to complain about me interrupting this thread just cool it.
--> I am done posting here for now so that I can sit back, listen, and learn more from those like HCW who were there. 
:)-->
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Thelema
HCW, you have become one of my fav writers here on Greasespot, and you only just begun, hopefully.
You have shed some light on VPW, the man, the myth, the legend. What do you think, honestly? Do you think he was right, that he was tapped into something Godly? That HQ was once a blessed place to be? Or do you think it was some sort of weird farce, another hippie christian cult that sprang up and ran its course entirely too long? Was he just a father figure to some thousands of young hippies who disappointed their conservative mommy and daddy?
I was born into the ministry and knew VP as well as a young person could. I loved being around him, and i have very good instincts when it comes to people. I mimicked him in the mirror, with my little bible, and said "Thaaat's riigght!!" Us mini-corps spent alot of time with him when he came to visit rome city, and i remember loving every minute of it. When VPW died, the ministry changed, and has never been the same since. The only thing close to the old days was the Rock, which was still amazing till the end, until LCM shut that down as well.
LCM was always too abrasive to listen to, when i had to sit through teachings. VPW at least, was a great teacher, i always payed attention until he was done. Just things that i think about, that prevent me from writing off VPW as something special. Was he actually what alot of folks said he was, or was it me just being young and naive?
So, what is your opinion on the authenticity of VPW's ministry? Even though he had many women and all of that, did that make a difference or what? Most folks still admire/respect VPW, or they hate him for his own hypocrisy.
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WordWolf
Hello.
BTW, HCW,
Since all the accounts of the famous India trip rely entirely on
vpw's accounts, I've gotten skeptical of everything except the
rough outline-he went to India and dropped his family for a bit.
A lot of the other stuff sounds like a recount of some movies of
trips to other countries.
"I was given the Key to the city, and carte blanche to teach there
whenever I wanted." No witnesses, no letters displayed. The book
he wrote on the Mission Field was on display-I've read it, it's a
short book-but NEVER anything with an official letterhead, no
commendation, no medal, no citation, no nothing.
"I was followed by crowds of people who wanted healing."
Funny almost none of us ever saw vpw produce a miracle of healing
in the USA-virtually all of those were off-camera. Further, he
never got a rep for teaching a lot on healing, which usually goes
along with a great grasp of the subject-the "healer" teaches his
students how to heal.
"I was on the back of a train in Jubbulpore. As it was about to
pull out, a man who's not a Christian asked me for healing. I
prayed, and he got a miracle of healing. I shouted to him about
his being healed in the name of Jesus Christ, just as the train
was pulling out." Such a cinematic scene. So impractical when
dealing with an actual moving train. Also never repeated in twi,
even though CHRISTIANS went up to vpw and asked for healing.
One guy was told he'd have to take pfal FIRST.
(You would think that if he got the deliverance first, he'd be the
most dedicated student in the room, wanting to learn how it's done.)
Mind you, I can't PROVE vpw bs'ed us on the whole trip, but I
think the absence of anything backing up his tales, plus the
cinematic quality of them, argues a healthy skepticism.
Perhaps it was meant to add a colourful flavour to his life,
like that guy in "Big Fish".
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shazdancer
Dear HCW,
I enjoyed your insights into the prime years of TWI. I was in about the same time, '72-'84.
I am intrigued by this statement, among others:
Combine it with this oneI think it is fair to say that VPW was a male chauvinist, or call him a "man's man" if you want to put a nicer spin on it. He may have said nice things about women from the lectern, but in person he used them, beginning with his wife. Provide VP with admiration or sex when he wanted, and shut up the rest of the time, or take a hike.If you are wondering about the destruction of the ministry, I'd start with VP's attitude toward half the people who were in that ministry, and the example he set for those who would follow.
I would be curious to hear about your take on how people viewed VPW and his motorcoach escapades. It seems to me that a lot of people knew about it (I didn't). And yet it was allowed to continue.
I also enjoyed hearing that Don stuck up for his mother and the family about the India trip. Like WordWolf, I tend to think VP may have embellished that trip somewhat (no WOW's sent to India, for one thing), and a man of God making his wife abandon their newborn is a huge red flag to me.
Regards,
Shaz
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shazdancer
To help answer the question about Craig and VP's relationship, I would add that, at least as early as 1980, several of the top brass were in the habit of avoiding having to go through VP to get things done. That was clear from the reaction of JAL, BM, and DEW when they learned that my hubby had gone right to VP with his drinking problem, and got his tushy kicked off of Staff. Their atttitude was, "Aw, ya shouldn't have done it that way, because now we can't overrule his decision."
It seems to me that respect for VPW had diminished for those who had their own piece of the TWI pie to protect. Perhaps that was true of Craig as well.
Regards,
Shaz
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George Aar
Yeah, you've got to wonder about the man's legacy just a little, don't you?
If he was really God's righthand man here on earth, why did everything he build turn to $hit in a matter of a couple of years?
Is Almighty God's work so delicate so as to be completely undone in such a short time? Certainly that seemed to be a tenet of Wierwillian dogma. After all, the "First Century Church" lost the "greatness of the mystery" in just a few years, didn't it?
There's been so many of Wierwille's ilk that have come and gone over the years, you'd think we'd be wise to them by now. Evidently not.
If he smiled at us and made us feel special every now and then, he must have been telling us the truth, right?
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TheInvisibleDan
Indeed, WW, very cinematic!
It always reminded me of the last scene to that 1940s era movie, Abe Lincoln in Illinois -(that I often confuse with "Young Mr. Lincoln", 1939) which I haven't seen in decades.
Abe Lincoln (who sports his newly grown, trademark facial hairs) is standing on the caboose, finishing a speech as the train is
slowly pulling away from the station...I bet this picture made quite the impression upon "Young Mr. Wierwille".
I wonder if there's anything in that movie about Abe receiving a key to the city? As I said, it's been years...
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George Aar
I can just see it,
The camera pans from the face of the stalwart Man of God, seated dignified in his railcar to the station landing with the Jain priest, tears streaming down his face, waving goodbye with his newly-healed arm - "But I still don't believe in your Jesus!" he mouths as the train pulls out.
THE END
Too bad we never got a sequel...
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excathedra
hcw, your experiences and memories are yours
same with mine
vp used people in a very bad way, he hurt people, more than you might realize
love, yo momma
;)-->
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skyrider
HCW.....that's insightful!
It never ceases to amaze me the "father figure -- crazy man" observations from so many in the life of victor paul wierwille that are POLES APART.
Thanks for posting. Hope you stick around awhile.
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excathedra
oh, one more thing, i loved vp very very much....
my mistake
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excathedra
speaking of their relationship, after vp died, i told craig, "you have a chance to do it right" (regarding hurtful misuse of power "sexually"). i don't think he agreed with me....
you reading this craig ? do you remember ?
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