If you believe Geer's words and vpw's last teaching tape, the relationship had soured beyond repair as lcm and the board had shoved the master off the stage and ignored him.
Apparently vpw told lcm to not appear in AOS, but loyboy wouldn't listen.
LCM worshipped and adored VP. I think there was sublimated stuff going on there with LCM. I know LCM's father felt VP had stolen his son and even confronted VP over it.
I don't think it was a healthy relationship.
As for VP, I really think he did not care about his young men vying for his approval. They'd jump through hoops for him, and occassionally he'd throw out a bone by giving a compliment or something. Almost a dominant (VP)/submissive (LCM) relationship.
I think there was some twisted psychological stuff going on with the men who really went to the extreme to get VP's approval. He was a father figure to them.
quote:...Did Craig revere Vic or did he simply use him?...
Why not both? He loved and respected VP, and also used him to get to the top. That was LCM's goal for a long time, to be top dog. The real question is why. Was it for God's glory, to genuinely serve the body of Christ? or for his own glory and sating his own ego? Ol Craig has proven the latter, thus far.
I sometimes hope he makes a genuine Godly comeback, like Darth Vader.
IN MY OPINION.....I wonder if VP abused LCM in some way similar to VPs abuse of women and if THAT might be part of his abhorrence of homosexuality only compounded by his knowledge of his wife's trists.
PURELY SPECULATION ON MY PART DUE TO THE INCREDIBLY VEHEMENT HATE AND HOMOPHOBIC ATTITUDE HE EXPRESSED.
quote:I once told Mike (and I still believe this is true) that I say he is
made of a finer clay than vpw and lcm.
etc. etc.
Here here! Not the Mike part, although that's fine too, but that really covers the seemingly incredible spread of perspectives that we all see in our own lives and the lives of others that have been involved with the Way over the years. Each person makes their own decisions when faced with good and bad, right and wrong.
VPW's spin on 'rewards' for faithfulness and how each person in essence can create their own 'heaven' certainly led some people to seek the 'riches' of the kingdom of God first because it was considered 'godly' to do so....if that's what God wants then you're totally legitmate running with an athletic fervor towards building a future 'position' in the kingdom to come. VPW once said, 'there's nothing I won't do to earn those eternal rewards". But that's the contradition right there - if a person seeks to be 'first' he'll be last. If a person is self serving in the here and now Jesus taught he'll have his reward, here and now, whatever it is. So there's a basic problem if all a person seeks is to 'rise up' to a ministry, position of leadership and 'service' simply so that they can have greater opportunity to build their 'future rewards'. The won't get their 'reward' later, they get whatever's coming to them now.
In that kind of environment competition is desirable. But Jesus didn't really present a model of a corporately competitive group of followers with His '12' disciples. On His 'team', the last would be first. There was no greater position than the one who served. The poor, the meek, the stupid, the bumbling geeks, the ones that had nothing but even tried to do right with what they had would be given at least the same consideration if not more, as the smart-as-a-tack do-gooders. Why? Because they didn't have anything to start with.
Maybe the lesson is that it's possible to try to be so dammed 'good' we're just not good to anyone anymore and since we become dead weight, we're relieved of duty.
IN MY OPINION.....I wonder if VP abused LCM in some way similar to VPs abuse of women and if THAT might be part of his abhorrence of homosexuality only compounded by his knowledge of his wife's trysts.
PURELY SPECULATION ON MY PART DUE TO THE INCREDIBLY VEHEMENT HATE AND HOMOPHOBIC ATTITUDE HE EXPRESSED.
I've considered the possibility.
However, nobody else came up with stories like that.
Even the inner circle didnt hear him saying that works
"if you're spiritual enough".
Could vpw have practiced homosexual rape, molested young boys,
or taken intravenous illicit drugs?
Those are all possible. However, it's all speculation.
Personally, I think lcm's overcompensation and virulent hatred
of homosexuality stemmed partly from his primary mindset-
that of the high school/college jock- and partly from dealings in
his own life, with relatives and incidents involving his mrs.
Funny, about all he could do about it, at least in regards to those close by, was just rant and rave about it. No action.. those, outside of the inner circle however, paid for it in spades.
I'm new to GS, just found it the other day actually. Before I post something on this topic allow me to introduce myself; briefly.
I'm 11th Corps. Spent my apprentice year on staff @ TWI HQ "78-'79. Came back to my staff job during final in residence year and came back again after graduation in "83. Was on staff til Aug "88 (about eight years in all) when I was the second staffer to be fired (Sal Secchitano was first) at the "beginning of the end."
At any rate. My job at HQ put me in regular contact with both VPW and Craig. I lived in "the upper room," right next door from the Wierwille home for about three months in '78 and would visit regularly w/VPW and Mrs. on the stoop outside their back door. Whenever VPW would return home he & Mrs. had a regular thing where they'd sit on or near the stoop and talk. They really loved the view of the trees in the courtyard area. I'd sit with them from time to time when be coming "home" from work in the evening and talk about "things & stuff."
I was only 21, a city kid transplanted in the country far from home. They took me under their wing & became sorta like aboptive grandparents to me. Our apprentice corps twig met twice weekly in the basement of the Wierwille home and Mrs. and Wanda would supply cookies, ice cream & other refreshments. She visited our twig on quite a few occasions and showed us old family photos & talked to us about "the old days" & stuff like that.
No. I'm not over romanticising the situation. That's what my experience was. Nope. I wasn't, nor did I ever become an foot-kisser; not one now either.
At any rate, I got to know them well. This was pre OSC; the WOW auditorium was a far away dream, no dorm then, etc. We were less corporate, more like family then. We could go down into the BRC kitchen and get food, snacks or whatever; kitchen staff, if they were there would say, "Just go in the fridge and get it." There was always leftovers from what we didn't eat at meals. Mid-night snacks just like you'd get at your home. Ralph Dubovsky was regular fixture there. We would pig out!
We lived together, worked and had fun together and got to know one another as family. There were only like a couple hundred people working there that first year. The OSC was just a shell and there was basically nothing west of the trailer park.
All this goes to say, I know LCM too, he's "Craig" to me. My job as staff photographer required me to always be there at every event wherever VPW or LCM was to shoot pictures for the historical files. Always there, I was behind the scenes and right up front at every major ministry event for ten years from 1978. I'm a personal friend of everyone in what they now call the trustee household. I used to hang out at Howard Allen's house & babysit his kids. Mrs. Allen would feed me cookies & milk.
Whenever Craig was home he'd call around or one of the guys (the jocks) would call him to let him know when were were playing and what. Sometimes we'd get a ballgame together that day so he could play. We'd play whatever was in season, fall was football, spring & summer was softball or basketball.
My job also had me doing artwork directly for VPW. That meant I would meet privately w/him (in the motorcoach) to discuss specifics for projects and then come back to show rough designs & pick which way to go for the finish. (No, he never hit on me, he was only into girls.) VPW trusted me to tell him what he should do and present him with alternatives & he would pick the one he liked best & we'd go with it. "You're the artist, don't ask me what to do, you TELL me..."
All this goes just to say... I knew VPW & Craig pretty well. I can tell you what I experienced of their relationship. My POV was somewhat unique, as it was my job to watch them.
I was also in charge of TWI's historical photo files and spent a LOT of time talking to the real old timers about stuff. They filled me in on "basically everything" about the ministry's background so I could catalog this huge stack of photos.
VPW had a way about him where he mentored, like everybody. This "Father in the Word" thing evolved out of that. I don't remember if it was Craig, Johnny Townsend or somebody else who coined that "father in the Word" thing. VPW had this fatherly manner where he was always teaching something in just about every situation. I never saw him as a father figure but those from the first three Corps groups, he was more like a father to some of them.
Craig, at one time was a real star in the Corps. He was really a dynamic, stand out guy like the prototype Corps guy. He was always "one of the guys" to us and was actually likeable. We had a lot of fun. He was always cracking jokes & stuff like that, macho guy type stuff. When LCM took over as Corps Coordinator that put him around VPW all the time cause VPW was really into the whole Corps thing. VPW spent lots of time with the first three Corps groups; lots of time with Craig.
We all loved VPW. He actually earned the love, respect and loyalty he got. He had a way of making you feel special when you were around him. Teaching The Way Corps was the apple of VPW's eye. The Corps became like Craig's "thing," he was the consummate Way Corps person. That was kinda why he got the position. The first time I saw Craig speak about The Way Corps I was 17 years old (in 1975). Craig was SO dynamic and powerful, whatever the Way Corps thing was I wanted it.
As the ministry grew Don Wierwille came back to HQ with a Doctorate Degree and experience in administration. He took over as Vice Pres. and began to organize the staff. This relates to the Craig/VPW relationship because VPW and his son Donnie were estranged. Donnie became angry at his dad when he was about 13 years old because VPW made his mother sell "all" of their stuff for their trip to India AND VPW made his mother leave her baby (John Paul) while his dad went galavanting around preaching and healing strangers in India. Donnie did not understand why his dad would make his mom do that.
Just like TWI taught that to truly understand the Word of God you have to understand Biblical culture, to understand the nature of the LCM/VPW relationship one must understand New Knoxville culture. In New Knoxville, nobody goes to INDIA. You also don't welcome outsiders as "family." Culture there mandates that one is ALWAYS an outsider unless you were born there. Even if you were born there or YOU are not REALLY from there if your parents were not born there. TWI actually helped alter the culture there to have them accept "outsiders."
SO. If you see where this is going.... Donnie left New Knoxville to go to college (a firstborn male son usually does not leave the family farm there either). VPW broke local tradition, Donnie did too. Donnie went his own way partly to spite his Dad. He did not go to college to get educated to come back and run his dad's "ministry." He left to LEAVE. VPW always wanted Donnnie to come back to HQ after college to "help run the family farm" which had now become The Way Ministry. Donnie basically gave VPW the finger and said NO. He adamantly refused VPW's pleadings to come home & got a job as a school principal. For years he stayed away. I don't believe Don Wierwille was EVER committed to the ministry of the Word. He came back to HQ to be the one to build the corporation, the organization. His goal was to be at the helm of a large business HE built.
LCM, it seemed to me, didn't have such a great relationship with his own father. I met him at some big even, I'm thinking it was Craig's Inaguration ceremony. He just didn't come off to me as the proud father. Someone noted here that Craig's dad was mad at VPW for taking his son.... I tend to agree. Although I never heard that specifically, I don't think Craig's dad was too happly with Craig throwing his life away to move to some podunk farm in Ohio to become a Jesus freak.
Craig WAS a rising star in the Southern Baptist (conservative white republican) church. If your son that you put through college at a major University (UK) left home to go "train" with a few long haired hippie type pinko fag Jesus freaks on a farm in nowhere Ohio... what would YOU say???????
Those first two Corps could never even THINK of meeting the Corps dress code they have today. I think it was Bo Reahard who came to HQ with only one pair of jeans & they RIPPED. Whoever it was, he came to meetings with his foot hanging out!
Anyways.... When Craig arrived on the scene he was probably longing for his father and VPW was definately longing for his son. Their relationship grew like this father/son thing. It was in full effect when I came on the staff scene in '78.
Craig had no apparent professional skills and certainly no qualifying professional experience prior to becoming Pres. He does have an amazing memory however, he used to wow us with it in the Corps. The Corps Coordinator position is one of the few jobs at HQ that there is definately no secular equivalent to. I don't know what else Craig would have done on staff had he not been Corps Coordinator. By 1983 when I came back to staff Donnie had influenced things to the end that just about everybody on staff had actual secular credentials to do the job they were doing. Some of the oldtimers had gained a level of professionalism by growing with their job as they didi it over the years. Us new generation of staffers (I actually had graduated from art school with a degree before I came on staff) were trained, educated and even experienced at the job they did.
I got the sense that the "top leadership" guys in the ministry didn't much mind Craig being Corps Coordinator. Nobody seemed to mind his apparent "Golden Child" status w/ VPW. The Corps was kinda "over there" away from the corporation & "move of the word" stuff. We made our own decisions in the nuts & bolts of moving the Word while Craig built the Corps. Our goal was to be able to run the ministry without VPW having his hands directly in everything. VPW hated having to put out fires whenever he came home because people were incompetent.
Craig, as Corps Coordinator was always #2 to VPW, cause while VPW was vital, everybody knew the Corps was really HIS, Craig just ran the day to day grunt stuff.
Then after the Corps grew to 5 locations other guys in the ministry were "equal" to Craig because as Corps coordinators they ran their location basically as they saw fit. Even though Craig had the "inside position" w/ VPW it kinda didn't matter because Craig really didn't know how to run a campus. Emporia, the biggest and central Corps location was Donnie's responsibility. Gunnison was Howard Allen's, HQ was VPW's and LEAD was Donnie Smith's. In a way Craig was a big something that wasn't much of anything, he just ran the "program." He'd travel around, yell at the Corps and come home.
Craig came to HQ basiclly right out of college at KU. He told us while we visited the Corps Chalet (his home on grounds) that he had dreams to play pro football, like most guys who play Division 1 NCAA football do. He said he was a star in high school ball but when he got to the NCAA he realized that all he had to do in high school was grunt and push people out of the way.
Craig was always second string at KU. He told us how the COACHES felt other guys picked up the blocking schemes and techniques ("I had to LEARN stuff!" He said.) faster & better than he and played the other guys in practice more than he and he didn't get the opportunity he felt he deserved to prove himself. Therefore he warmed the bench, not playing as much as he wanted.
He was upset about his lack of playing time when KU went to the Orange Bowl. His team did actually go to the Orange bowl but Craig wasn't a starter, he hardly even got in the game at all. He didn't get his uniform dirty; that's an insult to a football player.
So here he was, again, after busting his foot to become the #1 guy in The Way Ministry, he was actually on the sidelines warming the bench in a lot or respects. The Trustee Cabinet ran HQ & Department heads ran their stuff. In residence Corps were just interns to us staffers, we told them what to do. After a while many of us Corps Grads stopped coming to Corps night. I refused to put on a suit, leave my wife & kids at home and go to Corps night to hear a tape of Dr. Wierwille teaching what I heard live when I was in residence. When "confronted" cause "Craig" said he wanted us Corps Grads to set the example for the inresidence Corps, I said I'd be a better example to them by staying home with my kids and raising them in the Word. I said I could teach them better if I studied my Corps notes; it was a waste of time for me to sit and take the same notes I already have.
Nobody could refute that. Craig's words "fell to the ground." He was just "Craig" to me. VPW taught me personally during my visits in his motorcoach that NOBOBY but GOD could tell me what God's will for me was. VPW would say, "When somebody comes up to you saying God told me to tell you.... You should say, He didn't tell you to tell me to do it, He told YOU to do it."
I knew Craig's "special" relationship with VPW told him the same thing.
Craig wasn't the only "special" relationship VPW had. He was actually closer to Johhny Townsend and Walter Cummins than Craig. Those guys were not nearly as needy of the attention and "king of the hill" position Craig strived for. There were actually a few other guys in the ministry at the same leadership level as Craig. There were at least five other guys qualified to take over The Way as President, all of whom were actually better suited to run the business end of the ministry. VPW said he felt it was between Chris Geer & Craig about the spiritual/teaching aspects of the presidency.
Craig wanted so badly to BE VPW in the sense that he'd do all of these "man of God" things like VPW did. Craig comes off like a good 'ol boy. VPW was very natural and presidential in his manner and carried himself with an air of class and dignity. He never did the stand-up comedian thing. He would speak with power and a Godly authority that drew people to him. Yeah he was a closet (or should I say motorcoach) horndog to the Nth degree; but when he taught! And he had something that girls said was sexy. I always thought he was not good looking at all.
Craig has always been a wannabe. When he became president he lost his mind and became drunken with power thinking he can do anything he wants.
To sum it all up. I believe Craig came to HQ hurting for a father figure and VPW accepted him cause he was hurting for a son. VPW would yell at people a lot. When you made a stupid mistake at times he would make an example of people; yelling at you badly in front of the whole staff. He was VERY high strung and generally loud and yelled to the extent many would term abusive. It was like a family thing cause he would generally do it amongst the staff, not from the pulpit. I asked him about that privately once after he had yelled at me publically because I didn't have my camera at what turned out to become an historic event. He told me, "I yelled at you like that son, because I know you can take it. There are some people here that if I did that to them they'd crack like a vase."
Craig and VPW loved each other. VPW loved everybody. He called each of us staffers "his" like a term of endearment thing. Like if your name was Nancy he'd say, "How's my Nancy doing?" like every time he greeted you. We all had a genuine respect and love for each other as we all felt we were called by God to serve His people at the center, the root of God's ministry. Craig & Dr were like part of the center of that. Genuine respect and love? Absolutely.
Back in the day Headquarters was a truly special place. You could actually "feel" the presence of God there. We all loved each other. Possessed people would walk onto the grounds and their spirits would leave them. "You are Welcome at The Way" at one time was true of ANYONE.
I knew without a doubt that VPW loved me. He showed a great deal of love to a lot of people.
VPW, himself, paid the last few hundred dollars of my Corps sponsorship when he heard I was short. (I still have his handwritten note in a box somewhere in my basement. If somebody calls me on it I may scan it & post it.)
I know Craig was very hurt by seeing VPW deteriorate as he did. I'm guessing he felt abandoned. I'm guessing that Craig felt he wasn't ready to run the ministry without VPW as there was a prevailing air of the same. Nobody on staff was more dependant on VPW to do their job than Craig. Craig seems to be an extreme example of "I'm FINALLY GONNA GET MY WAY!!!!!"
There was a year or so near the end where VPW's travels was more like a farewell tour than anything else. Dr. began teaching, like everywhere he went on "The Joy of Service." He would say how important it was that we saw that and got back to it. It was pretty obvious that he was no longer "the ministry." It was like he was dead already. He & Craig seemed to rarely be home at the same time, I thought it was wierd. Like a dark cloud over the place. I'm thinking VPW probably expressed dissapointment in LCM to him at some point then. We all knew he wouldn't last much longer but his end seemed to come way too fast, way too soon. It was like he was on a gentle glidepath down then fell off a cliff - - next thing we knew he was gone and we were digging his grave. We were all in shock.
Craig started changing when he took over the ministry. Those of us who "knew him when" felt this, "Call me Rev. Martindale" stuff was crap. At one time he was a lighthearted good 'ol Oklahoma boy. He stopped playing ball with us as much. Any of us used to be able to talk to him about what time we were gonna be on the field or the court. We'd see each other at work or lunch and say, "Craig's home did he call? Anybody call him yet?" He used to call himself when he got home. It changed to Eric Koetteritz had to call Eddie Gobel and leave Eddie a message and Craig wouldn't show up most of the time. That put a sour spot taste on "the game" & it gradually faded to an every once in a while thing.
One of the early rumors about VPW's death was that he died of a broken heart. HQ was a completely different place by then. Leadership had become hard hearted and legalistic. The corporate needs had superceded the needs of the people. The "we are family" feeling was ancient history. I think Craig thought he could believe the ministry through beating the IRS back from taking away the Non-Profit status of the ministry. They wasted a over a million abundant sharing dollars and lost.
When VPW died we dug his grave by hand with shovels and spades. Tom Mausolf coordinated the effort and to my thinking that was one of, if not the last time I felt that certain feeling of family at HQ. No bickering, just complete cooperation and teamwork measuring, digging, throwing rocks out, shaping the sides, etc.
The funeral was a blur to me.
Wow. I haven't thought about this stuff for years.
VP is the reason LCM married Donna. Neither one of them loved each other; it was a dictate of VP. VP also knew that Donna was attracted to women, so why would he risk his "son's" future by creating that mess? This was not a father figure doing best by his son. This was all about the master puppet pulling the strings---and the heck with the results.
I for one have no fond memories of VP. I could never reconcile the contradictions of father figure with someone who would publicly scream and humiliate "his kids". He'd scream at the men and he encouraged the women to abort the "non-living cells" they were carrying. It could even morph to his attitude of leaving JP behind. VP always came first. It was all self-serving and abusive of everyone, including Mrs. W, his children, and "his kids".
quote:... We all loved VPW. He actually earned the love, respect and loyalty he got. ...
Aah. Another Wierwille Worshipper!
BUT!
quote:I don't believe Don Wierwille was EVER committed to the ministry of the Word. He came back to HQ to be the one to build the corporation, the organization. His goal was to be at the helm of a large business HE built.
A Don Wierwille hater ...
It kind of amazes me that someone would come on Greasespot and have nothing at all nice to say about Don Wierwille (who rarely gets criticized), while simultaneously having kindness and understanding toward VPW and LCM. Personal vendetta rant?
A lot of us are "bitter" about the bad things that happened in the ministry and how we were let down and betrayed. Yet there were some good times and yes, I do believe that you could feel God's presence at HQ at one time.
It was very interesting to read your recounting of your experience. I hope you continue to share with us.
HCW- that post was lovely to read and brought to my remembrance many of the reasons I became involved in twi (1977) and the good feelings from way back when. Oh to be young again and to have true friendships, camaraderie, a purpose and closeness to God- I had a minuteman summer like that.
God knows that most people are complex and have many sides to them- as you are a photographer you seem to have a good way of seeing the whole picture.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
11
9
12
33
Popular Days
Jan 18
42
Jan 19
32
Jan 17
30
Jan 14
19
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 11 posts
houseisarockin 9 posts
TheEvan 12 posts
HCW 33 posts
Popular Days
Jan 18 2005
42 posts
Jan 19 2005
32 posts
Jan 17 2005
30 posts
Jan 14 2005
19 posts
Popular Posts
Twinky
For anyone who might be interested in returning to the original subject of this thread: (It's from the Offshoots subforum: Craig has his own splinter group).
def59
If you believe Geer's words and vpw's last teaching tape, the relationship had soured beyond repair as lcm and the board had shoved the master off the stage and ignored him.
Apparently vpw told lcm to not appear in AOS, but loyboy wouldn't listen.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
LCM worshipped and adored VP. I think there was sublimated stuff going on there with LCM. I know LCM's father felt VP had stolen his son and even confronted VP over it.
I don't think it was a healthy relationship.
As for VP, I really think he did not care about his young men vying for his approval. They'd jump through hoops for him, and occassionally he'd throw out a bone by giving a compliment or something. Almost a dominant (VP)/submissive (LCM) relationship.
I think there was some twisted psychological stuff going on with the men who really went to the extreme to get VP's approval. He was a father figure to them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I think POP was accurate in one specific.
It claims vpw said at one point that lcm and cg were the only men
he thought could run things. Since vpw's main criteria, as has
been pointed out before, was blind loyalty to himself, he named
those 2 men as the most singlemindedly loyal men, loyal to him
beyond all other things.
I once told Mike (and I still believe this is true) that I say he is
made of a finer clay than vpw and lcm. I specified: I believe that
if Mike was placed in that inner circle with lcm, and vpw gave his
spiel about adultery being perfectly fine, that lcm would-and did-
sin because vpw recommended it, and that Mike would NOT sin
DESPITE vpw recommending it. Mike is painfully loyal to vpw,
but not to the point that Mike will intentionally sin for him,
IMHO. Therefore, although I think there have been many people
loyal to vpw, very few (lcm and cg, but not Mike) were or are
willing to disregard their own consciences for his sake.
This was anything BUT a healthy relationship.
vpw made lcm twofold the child of hell that he himself was.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I sometimes hope he makes a genuine Godly comeback, like Darth Vader.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Sunesis' observation squares with mine. As does oldies'
Link to comment
Share on other sites
houseisarockin
Geer had no idea what he was talking about.
They used each other, but VP the more skilled. Soon the young one to master.
Craig adored VP.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
PURELY SPECULATION ON MY PART!!
IN MY OPINION.....I wonder if VP abused LCM in some way similar to VPs abuse of women and if THAT might be part of his abhorrence of homosexuality only compounded by his knowledge of his wife's trists.
PURELY SPECULATION ON MY PART DUE TO THE INCREDIBLY VEHEMENT HATE AND HOMOPHOBIC ATTITUDE HE EXPRESSED.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Oldies - "I sometimes hope he makes a genuine Godly comeback, like Darth Vader."
"You already have, Luke. You were right. You were right about me. Tell your sister...you were right!"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
WW sed:
etc. etc.
Here here! Not the Mike part, although that's fine too, but that really covers the seemingly incredible spread of perspectives that we all see in our own lives and the lives of others that have been involved with the Way over the years. Each person makes their own decisions when faced with good and bad, right and wrong.
VPW's spin on 'rewards' for faithfulness and how each person in essence can create their own 'heaven' certainly led some people to seek the 'riches' of the kingdom of God first because it was considered 'godly' to do so....if that's what God wants then you're totally legitmate running with an athletic fervor towards building a future 'position' in the kingdom to come. VPW once said, 'there's nothing I won't do to earn those eternal rewards". But that's the contradition right there - if a person seeks to be 'first' he'll be last. If a person is self serving in the here and now Jesus taught he'll have his reward, here and now, whatever it is. So there's a basic problem if all a person seeks is to 'rise up' to a ministry, position of leadership and 'service' simply so that they can have greater opportunity to build their 'future rewards'. The won't get their 'reward' later, they get whatever's coming to them now.
In that kind of environment competition is desirable. But Jesus didn't really present a model of a corporately competitive group of followers with His '12' disciples. On His 'team', the last would be first. There was no greater position than the one who served. The poor, the meek, the stupid, the bumbling geeks, the ones that had nothing but even tried to do right with what they had would be given at least the same consideration if not more, as the smart-as-a-tack do-gooders. Why? Because they didn't have anything to start with.
Maybe the lesson is that it's possible to try to be so dammed 'good' we're just not good to anyone anymore and since we become dead weight, we're relieved of duty.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
herbiejuan
Good pont Socks
Link to comment
Share on other sites
herbiejuan
As me I find I have a compodium of issues to deal with, my sincere hope in life is to be able to acknowledge and address most of them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Thanks herbiejuan.
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I've considered the possibility.
However, nobody else came up with stories like that.
Even the inner circle didnt hear him saying that works
"if you're spiritual enough".
Could vpw have practiced homosexual rape, molested young boys,
or taken intravenous illicit drugs?
Those are all possible. However, it's all speculation.
Personally, I think lcm's overcompensation and virulent hatred
of homosexuality stemmed partly from his primary mindset-
that of the high school/college jock- and partly from dealings in
his own life, with relatives and incidents involving his mrs.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Funny, about all he could do about it, at least in regards to those close by, was just rant and rave about it. No action.. those, outside of the inner circle however, paid for it in spades.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Does seem like a wimpy response. You'd think the guy went around wearing tights!
Oh, wait...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
Greetings all.
I'm new to GS, just found it the other day actually. Before I post something on this topic allow me to introduce myself; briefly.
I'm 11th Corps. Spent my apprentice year on staff @ TWI HQ "78-'79. Came back to my staff job during final in residence year and came back again after graduation in "83. Was on staff til Aug "88 (about eight years in all) when I was the second staffer to be fired (Sal Secchitano was first) at the "beginning of the end."
At any rate. My job at HQ put me in regular contact with both VPW and Craig. I lived in "the upper room," right next door from the Wierwille home for about three months in '78 and would visit regularly w/VPW and Mrs. on the stoop outside their back door. Whenever VPW would return home he & Mrs. had a regular thing where they'd sit on or near the stoop and talk. They really loved the view of the trees in the courtyard area. I'd sit with them from time to time when be coming "home" from work in the evening and talk about "things & stuff."
I was only 21, a city kid transplanted in the country far from home. They took me under their wing & became sorta like aboptive grandparents to me. Our apprentice corps twig met twice weekly in the basement of the Wierwille home and Mrs. and Wanda would supply cookies, ice cream & other refreshments. She visited our twig on quite a few occasions and showed us old family photos & talked to us about "the old days" & stuff like that.
No. I'm not over romanticising the situation. That's what my experience was. Nope. I wasn't, nor did I ever become an foot-kisser; not one now either.
At any rate, I got to know them well. This was pre OSC; the WOW auditorium was a far away dream, no dorm then, etc. We were less corporate, more like family then. We could go down into the BRC kitchen and get food, snacks or whatever; kitchen staff, if they were there would say, "Just go in the fridge and get it." There was always leftovers from what we didn't eat at meals. Mid-night snacks just like you'd get at your home. Ralph Dubovsky was regular fixture there. We would pig out!
We lived together, worked and had fun together and got to know one another as family. There were only like a couple hundred people working there that first year. The OSC was just a shell and there was basically nothing west of the trailer park.
All this goes to say, I know LCM too, he's "Craig" to me. My job as staff photographer required me to always be there at every event wherever VPW or LCM was to shoot pictures for the historical files. Always there, I was behind the scenes and right up front at every major ministry event for ten years from 1978. I'm a personal friend of everyone in what they now call the trustee household. I used to hang out at Howard Allen's house & babysit his kids. Mrs. Allen would feed me cookies & milk.
Whenever Craig was home he'd call around or one of the guys (the jocks) would call him to let him know when were were playing and what. Sometimes we'd get a ballgame together that day so he could play. We'd play whatever was in season, fall was football, spring & summer was softball or basketball.
My job also had me doing artwork directly for VPW. That meant I would meet privately w/him (in the motorcoach) to discuss specifics for projects and then come back to show rough designs & pick which way to go for the finish. (No, he never hit on me, he was only into girls.) VPW trusted me to tell him what he should do and present him with alternatives & he would pick the one he liked best & we'd go with it. "You're the artist, don't ask me what to do, you TELL me..."
All this goes just to say... I knew VPW & Craig pretty well. I can tell you what I experienced of their relationship. My POV was somewhat unique, as it was my job to watch them.
I was also in charge of TWI's historical photo files and spent a LOT of time talking to the real old timers about stuff. They filled me in on "basically everything" about the ministry's background so I could catalog this huge stack of photos.
VPW had a way about him where he mentored, like everybody. This "Father in the Word" thing evolved out of that. I don't remember if it was Craig, Johnny Townsend or somebody else who coined that "father in the Word" thing. VPW had this fatherly manner where he was always teaching something in just about every situation. I never saw him as a father figure but those from the first three Corps groups, he was more like a father to some of them.
Craig, at one time was a real star in the Corps. He was really a dynamic, stand out guy like the prototype Corps guy. He was always "one of the guys" to us and was actually likeable. We had a lot of fun. He was always cracking jokes & stuff like that, macho guy type stuff. When LCM took over as Corps Coordinator that put him around VPW all the time cause VPW was really into the whole Corps thing. VPW spent lots of time with the first three Corps groups; lots of time with Craig.
We all loved VPW. He actually earned the love, respect and loyalty he got. He had a way of making you feel special when you were around him. Teaching The Way Corps was the apple of VPW's eye. The Corps became like Craig's "thing," he was the consummate Way Corps person. That was kinda why he got the position. The first time I saw Craig speak about The Way Corps I was 17 years old (in 1975). Craig was SO dynamic and powerful, whatever the Way Corps thing was I wanted it.
As the ministry grew Don Wierwille came back to HQ with a Doctorate Degree and experience in administration. He took over as Vice Pres. and began to organize the staff. This relates to the Craig/VPW relationship because VPW and his son Donnie were estranged. Donnie became angry at his dad when he was about 13 years old because VPW made his mother sell "all" of their stuff for their trip to India AND VPW made his mother leave her baby (John Paul) while his dad went galavanting around preaching and healing strangers in India. Donnie did not understand why his dad would make his mom do that.
Just like TWI taught that to truly understand the Word of God you have to understand Biblical culture, to understand the nature of the LCM/VPW relationship one must understand New Knoxville culture. In New Knoxville, nobody goes to INDIA. You also don't welcome outsiders as "family." Culture there mandates that one is ALWAYS an outsider unless you were born there. Even if you were born there or YOU are not REALLY from there if your parents were not born there. TWI actually helped alter the culture there to have them accept "outsiders."
SO. If you see where this is going.... Donnie left New Knoxville to go to college (a firstborn male son usually does not leave the family farm there either). VPW broke local tradition, Donnie did too. Donnie went his own way partly to spite his Dad. He did not go to college to get educated to come back and run his dad's "ministry." He left to LEAVE. VPW always wanted Donnnie to come back to HQ after college to "help run the family farm" which had now become The Way Ministry. Donnie basically gave VPW the finger and said NO. He adamantly refused VPW's pleadings to come home & got a job as a school principal. For years he stayed away. I don't believe Don Wierwille was EVER committed to the ministry of the Word. He came back to HQ to be the one to build the corporation, the organization. His goal was to be at the helm of a large business HE built.
LCM, it seemed to me, didn't have such a great relationship with his own father. I met him at some big even, I'm thinking it was Craig's Inaguration ceremony. He just didn't come off to me as the proud father. Someone noted here that Craig's dad was mad at VPW for taking his son.... I tend to agree. Although I never heard that specifically, I don't think Craig's dad was too happly with Craig throwing his life away to move to some podunk farm in Ohio to become a Jesus freak.
Craig WAS a rising star in the Southern Baptist (conservative white republican) church. If your son that you put through college at a major University (UK) left home to go "train" with a few long haired hippie type pinko fag Jesus freaks on a farm in nowhere Ohio... what would YOU say???????
Those first two Corps could never even THINK of meeting the Corps dress code they have today. I think it was Bo Reahard who came to HQ with only one pair of jeans & they RIPPED. Whoever it was, he came to meetings with his foot hanging out!
Anyways.... When Craig arrived on the scene he was probably longing for his father and VPW was definately longing for his son. Their relationship grew like this father/son thing. It was in full effect when I came on the staff scene in '78.
Craig had no apparent professional skills and certainly no qualifying professional experience prior to becoming Pres. He does have an amazing memory however, he used to wow us with it in the Corps. The Corps Coordinator position is one of the few jobs at HQ that there is definately no secular equivalent to. I don't know what else Craig would have done on staff had he not been Corps Coordinator. By 1983 when I came back to staff Donnie had influenced things to the end that just about everybody on staff had actual secular credentials to do the job they were doing. Some of the oldtimers had gained a level of professionalism by growing with their job as they didi it over the years. Us new generation of staffers (I actually had graduated from art school with a degree before I came on staff) were trained, educated and even experienced at the job they did.
I got the sense that the "top leadership" guys in the ministry didn't much mind Craig being Corps Coordinator. Nobody seemed to mind his apparent "Golden Child" status w/ VPW. The Corps was kinda "over there" away from the corporation & "move of the word" stuff. We made our own decisions in the nuts & bolts of moving the Word while Craig built the Corps. Our goal was to be able to run the ministry without VPW having his hands directly in everything. VPW hated having to put out fires whenever he came home because people were incompetent.
Craig, as Corps Coordinator was always #2 to VPW, cause while VPW was vital, everybody knew the Corps was really HIS, Craig just ran the day to day grunt stuff.
Then after the Corps grew to 5 locations other guys in the ministry were "equal" to Craig because as Corps coordinators they ran their location basically as they saw fit. Even though Craig had the "inside position" w/ VPW it kinda didn't matter because Craig really didn't know how to run a campus. Emporia, the biggest and central Corps location was Donnie's responsibility. Gunnison was Howard Allen's, HQ was VPW's and LEAD was Donnie Smith's. In a way Craig was a big something that wasn't much of anything, he just ran the "program." He'd travel around, yell at the Corps and come home.
Craig came to HQ basiclly right out of college at KU. He told us while we visited the Corps Chalet (his home on grounds) that he had dreams to play pro football, like most guys who play Division 1 NCAA football do. He said he was a star in high school ball but when he got to the NCAA he realized that all he had to do in high school was grunt and push people out of the way.
Craig was always second string at KU. He told us how the COACHES felt other guys picked up the blocking schemes and techniques ("I had to LEARN stuff!" He said.) faster & better than he and played the other guys in practice more than he and he didn't get the opportunity he felt he deserved to prove himself. Therefore he warmed the bench, not playing as much as he wanted.
He was upset about his lack of playing time when KU went to the Orange Bowl. His team did actually go to the Orange bowl but Craig wasn't a starter, he hardly even got in the game at all. He didn't get his uniform dirty; that's an insult to a football player.
So here he was, again, after busting his foot to become the #1 guy in The Way Ministry, he was actually on the sidelines warming the bench in a lot or respects. The Trustee Cabinet ran HQ & Department heads ran their stuff. In residence Corps were just interns to us staffers, we told them what to do. After a while many of us Corps Grads stopped coming to Corps night. I refused to put on a suit, leave my wife & kids at home and go to Corps night to hear a tape of Dr. Wierwille teaching what I heard live when I was in residence. When "confronted" cause "Craig" said he wanted us Corps Grads to set the example for the inresidence Corps, I said I'd be a better example to them by staying home with my kids and raising them in the Word. I said I could teach them better if I studied my Corps notes; it was a waste of time for me to sit and take the same notes I already have.
Nobody could refute that. Craig's words "fell to the ground." He was just "Craig" to me. VPW taught me personally during my visits in his motorcoach that NOBOBY but GOD could tell me what God's will for me was. VPW would say, "When somebody comes up to you saying God told me to tell you.... You should say, He didn't tell you to tell me to do it, He told YOU to do it."
I knew Craig's "special" relationship with VPW told him the same thing.
Craig wasn't the only "special" relationship VPW had. He was actually closer to Johhny Townsend and Walter Cummins than Craig. Those guys were not nearly as needy of the attention and "king of the hill" position Craig strived for. There were actually a few other guys in the ministry at the same leadership level as Craig. There were at least five other guys qualified to take over The Way as President, all of whom were actually better suited to run the business end of the ministry. VPW said he felt it was between Chris Geer & Craig about the spiritual/teaching aspects of the presidency.
Craig wanted so badly to BE VPW in the sense that he'd do all of these "man of God" things like VPW did. Craig comes off like a good 'ol boy. VPW was very natural and presidential in his manner and carried himself with an air of class and dignity. He never did the stand-up comedian thing. He would speak with power and a Godly authority that drew people to him. Yeah he was a closet (or should I say motorcoach) horndog to the Nth degree; but when he taught! And he had something that girls said was sexy. I always thought he was not good looking at all.
Craig has always been a wannabe. When he became president he lost his mind and became drunken with power thinking he can do anything he wants.
To sum it all up. I believe Craig came to HQ hurting for a father figure and VPW accepted him cause he was hurting for a son. VPW would yell at people a lot. When you made a stupid mistake at times he would make an example of people; yelling at you badly in front of the whole staff. He was VERY high strung and generally loud and yelled to the extent many would term abusive. It was like a family thing cause he would generally do it amongst the staff, not from the pulpit. I asked him about that privately once after he had yelled at me publically because I didn't have my camera at what turned out to become an historic event. He told me, "I yelled at you like that son, because I know you can take it. There are some people here that if I did that to them they'd crack like a vase."
Craig and VPW loved each other. VPW loved everybody. He called each of us staffers "his" like a term of endearment thing. Like if your name was Nancy he'd say, "How's my Nancy doing?" like every time he greeted you. We all had a genuine respect and love for each other as we all felt we were called by God to serve His people at the center, the root of God's ministry. Craig & Dr were like part of the center of that. Genuine respect and love? Absolutely.
Back in the day Headquarters was a truly special place. You could actually "feel" the presence of God there. We all loved each other. Possessed people would walk onto the grounds and their spirits would leave them. "You are Welcome at The Way" at one time was true of ANYONE.
I knew without a doubt that VPW loved me. He showed a great deal of love to a lot of people.
VPW, himself, paid the last few hundred dollars of my Corps sponsorship when he heard I was short. (I still have his handwritten note in a box somewhere in my basement. If somebody calls me on it I may scan it & post it.)
I know Craig was very hurt by seeing VPW deteriorate as he did. I'm guessing he felt abandoned. I'm guessing that Craig felt he wasn't ready to run the ministry without VPW as there was a prevailing air of the same. Nobody on staff was more dependant on VPW to do their job than Craig. Craig seems to be an extreme example of "I'm FINALLY GONNA GET MY WAY!!!!!"
There was a year or so near the end where VPW's travels was more like a farewell tour than anything else. Dr. began teaching, like everywhere he went on "The Joy of Service." He would say how important it was that we saw that and got back to it. It was pretty obvious that he was no longer "the ministry." It was like he was dead already. He & Craig seemed to rarely be home at the same time, I thought it was wierd. Like a dark cloud over the place. I'm thinking VPW probably expressed dissapointment in LCM to him at some point then. We all knew he wouldn't last much longer but his end seemed to come way too fast, way too soon. It was like he was on a gentle glidepath down then fell off a cliff - - next thing we knew he was gone and we were digging his grave. We were all in shock.
Craig started changing when he took over the ministry. Those of us who "knew him when" felt this, "Call me Rev. Martindale" stuff was crap. At one time he was a lighthearted good 'ol Oklahoma boy. He stopped playing ball with us as much. Any of us used to be able to talk to him about what time we were gonna be on the field or the court. We'd see each other at work or lunch and say, "Craig's home did he call? Anybody call him yet?" He used to call himself when he got home. It changed to Eric Koetteritz had to call Eddie Gobel and leave Eddie a message and Craig wouldn't show up most of the time. That put a sour spot taste on "the game" & it gradually faded to an every once in a while thing.
One of the early rumors about VPW's death was that he died of a broken heart. HQ was a completely different place by then. Leadership had become hard hearted and legalistic. The corporate needs had superceded the needs of the people. The "we are family" feeling was ancient history. I think Craig thought he could believe the ministry through beating the IRS back from taking away the Non-Profit status of the ministry. They wasted a over a million abundant sharing dollars and lost.
When VPW died we dug his grave by hand with shovels and spades. Tom Mausolf coordinated the effort and to my thinking that was one of, if not the last time I felt that certain feeling of family at HQ. No bickering, just complete cooperation and teamwork measuring, digging, throwing rocks out, shaping the sides, etc.
The funeral was a blur to me.
Wow. I haven't thought about this stuff for years.
Hope it helps.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
welcome HCW
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rejoice
VP is the reason LCM married Donna. Neither one of them loved each other; it was a dictate of VP. VP also knew that Donna was attracted to women, so why would he risk his "son's" future by creating that mess? This was not a father figure doing best by his son. This was all about the master puppet pulling the strings---and the heck with the results.
I for one have no fond memories of VP. I could never reconcile the contradictions of father figure with someone who would publicly scream and humiliate "his kids". He'd scream at the men and he encouraged the women to abort the "non-living cells" they were carrying. It could even morph to his attitude of leaving JP behind. VP always came first. It was all self-serving and abusive of everyone, including Mrs. W, his children, and "his kids".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
What a wonderful post HC - thanks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
Thanks excathedra
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
BUT!
A Don Wierwille hater ...It kind of amazes me that someone would come on Greasespot and have nothing at all nice to say about Don Wierwille (who rarely gets criticized), while simultaneously having kindness and understanding toward VPW and LCM. Personal vendetta rant?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outandabout
Thanks for the post, HCW. You write really well.
A lot of us are "bitter" about the bad things that happened in the ministry and how we were let down and betrayed. Yet there were some good times and yes, I do believe that you could feel God's presence at HQ at one time.
It was very interesting to read your recounting of your experience. I hope you continue to share with us.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Hopefull
HCW- that post was lovely to read and brought to my remembrance many of the reasons I became involved in twi (1977) and the good feelings from way back when. Oh to be young again and to have true friendships, camaraderie, a purpose and closeness to God- I had a minuteman summer like that.
God knows that most people are complex and have many sides to them- as you are a photographer you seem to have a good way of seeing the whole picture.
Thanks, welcome to GS and please keep writing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.