Why hasn't Loy started his own splinter group?

[Raf]

Hey now there's a thought. :)-->

[Research Geek]

Why? In two words: Waydale and Greasespot (the other similar sites too, maybe...)

I wonder if he has "come to himself" like the prodigal son. But there is one unique difference between the prodigal son story and now - the internet - full of people who continually rub his nose in the shXt he did.

In my opinion, having researched genuine ministries, of which once upon a time, he had one (I'm sure there will be those who nay-say), my response is "What a waste!" All the ability and training and potential now ineffective. What a waste!

If he ever did have a Jeremiah 20:8,9 moment and wanted to speak again and serve again, he'd have a difficult road to travel. As I see it, the only way he could go would involve an open letter of apology sent to all the Greasespot-type websites. Without that he'd not be able to successfully rise up again.

The same is true for any other believer who has fallen. The gifts and callings of God are without repentance - they still have them - period. If they take them back up off the shelf and weather the ineveitable difficultues in rising back up again, they can function again.

However, the civil penalties are still something to deal with. If the laws of the land have been violated and the statute of limitations is still in effect, that will be another hurdle to surmount...

So maybe he figures it's not worth it. I don't know. But his lesson is something that every minister needs to consider when they are tempted. Note: Billy Graham never met with a woman in private for counselling. There always was someone else in the room. Something to think about... and no three-some jokes...

[Raf]

Billy Graham... not even in an elevator!

True story.

I use that principle in class. I will not allow any female student to be in a classroom with me unless other people are present, and not in the office unless the door is wide open and nothing stands between her and the exit.

[Radar OReilly]

Personally, I think that there are legal constraints place on lcm, stemming from either the allen suit, or by twi.

I would personally like to think that it is like Johnny Lingo says.

Whatever it is.......the power of God cannot be subdued.....in other words......

Geek :)-->,

If lcm is not able to raise above his current situation, it has NOTHING to do with the internet.

If lcm wants to be a minister for the Lord Jesus Christ, it is completely available for him to do so. Both Jim Bakker and Jimmy Sweigart have managed to resurrect their lives. They allowed themselves to be tempted also, BUT, they have been able to put their lives back together and to be productive ministers for the Lord Jesus Christ. Obviously, not in the same manner or in the same way as BEFORE they succombed to temptation.

Jim Bakker and Jimmy Sweiggart were vilified on television and radio, and in national print...they ruined their lives, their families and their ministries. They both were more severely crucified on a worldwide and national level than ANYTHING that ever happened to lcm.

If lcm should ever decide that he wants to rebuild his life, and perhaps, pursue his calling ((??)) he has the answers on how to do so, step one (after his personal reconciliation with God) would be to lay his soul open to those that he has wronged. OF COURSE that would be the first step....that is scriptural.

No one should compare his downfall with the down fall of PTL or Jimmy Sweiggart.....waydale and gspot are small change compared to the modern day crucifixion that Bakker and Sweiggart endured....yet somehowe, someway....they seem to have followed what they believe to be their calling and ministry.

Sure, the internet allowed the exWay community to band together, to voice our hurts, to sound the alarm and to REMOVE a menace to christianity, society and humanity from a pulpit of access.

If lcm were to decide that he wants to be a minister.....he has it within his grasp....but until he rights the wrongs, admits his spiritual short comings.....asks for forgiveness from those he has sinned against....I cannot see that happening. Please do not attempt to lay that at the feet of God's chosen.

ror

[Research Geek]

True Radar... I was just speaking from the standpoint of him starting a splinter group implying that he'd have to get some ex-twi people involved. I just can't see many who are now out of twi wanting to affiliate with him. But if he wanted to start his own thing from scratch and do so without trying to attract ex-twi people, then yes he could try to do so like you mentioned re: Bakker and Sweiggart. However, he'd have to go back to his roots and not use the same approach he did in the 80s and 90s...

[krys]

quote:

---

....but until he rights the wrongs, admits his spiritual short comings.....asks for forgiveness from those he has sinned against....

---

If he actually did this, I'd like to think that I could rise to the occaision and forgive. But I'm not so sure I could!

[A la prochaine]

quote:

---

I just can't see many who are now out of twi wanting to affiliate with him.

---

My thought exactly. Who would be wanting to affiliate with him?

He would obviously still be propounding TWI's doctrine...therefore coming in direct conflict with Rosie herself. How would that work? Would he attract those who are tired of the mundane Rosie show? Would it be those who would be in the dark regarding his sordid past?

Or would he start his ministry based on a whole different premise than TWI's??

Maybe something to the effect of...Power For More Abundant Twisted Thinking...Be a follower, be a Leader and do what you fool heart please. Keys to getting away with it without ever having to say you're sorry!

[socks]

Well, as long as we're armchair quarterbacking, I'll take a stab at a point you brought up R. G.

I think it bears on your original question UH - Craig may or may not have a gift ministry, but let's say if he does, it doesn't mean he needs to start up his own ministry or church, whether it be an offshoot splinter group or otherwise. In fact it might be better if he didn't and if so inspired, worked with other people, perhaps in a different capacity than administration.

In fact if he does have a 'calling' of sorts, it may not have anything to do with his being president of the Way Ministry or any other ministry, now or then.

We had a lot of information about the gift ministries in the Way. A lot was taught about them to the Way Corps, and there were ordinations and all of that. But as far as any practical understanding of them in the Way's population, we were all pretty young, VPW included. From the time he first ordained anyone from the 1st Corps to his death was less then 20 years. How many before that? Mal George? Maybe a few others?

My point is that I feel whatever we knew from the bible was more of a "what if" kind of thing. For me it was like having a map describing how to get somewhere with some basic directions. Being cut off from the rest of the Christian world we had no real examples, other than VPW of course. No history or tradition to experiment with or emulate other than what we read in the bible. In that way it was all very new. We thought we had it all in the teaching, but we had the barest of experience or wisdom.

I guess my own examination of the topic and it's possibilities leads me to believe that someone like Craig Martindale has a whole life to live and life has it's seasons, changes, growth, etc. etc. At one time his life was completely contained in the Way Ministry. So was mine. But there's nothing to say that it would have to be for the rest of his life, or mine or anyone's for that matter. It might be in his future to do something completely different and that would be fine. Maybe work with others who could help him learn more, learn different things. Who knows?

[skyrider]

quote:

---

Originally posted by RG:

True Radar... I was just speaking from the standpoint of him starting a splinter group implying that he'd have to get some ex-twi people involved. I just can't see many who are now out of twi wanting to affiliate with him. But if he wanted to start his own thing from scratch and do so without trying to attract ex-twi people, then yes he could try to do so like you mentioned re: Bakker and Sweiggart. However, he'd have to go back to his roots and not use the same approach he did in the 80s and 90s...

---

Not quite sure what you mean by "go back to his roots".......but certainly, lcm's "rise in the 70's" is a complex interworking of many, many factors that could never be duplicated again.

Some of the responses volley back and forth between "lcm starting his own splinter group" and "lcm having a genuine gift ministry." If lcm is to go back to roots, then maybe he should start with.....

.....a bishop must be blameless

.....the husband of one wife

.....vigilant

.....sober

.....of good behavior

.....given to hospitality

.....etc.

.....one that ruleth his own house

.....having his children in subjection

.....etc. etc. etc.

If a man knows not how to rule his own house, how can he take care of the church of God?

Maybe.....lcm will someday start a cookie-cutter splinter group like others. But he has a wide chasm to cross IF HE CHOOSES to go God's way....and become a genuine minister.

Jesus Christ is the bridge. :)-->

Not vpw's corps training. -->

[skyrider]

quote:

---

At one time his life was completely contained in the Way Ministry. So was mine. But there's nothing to say that it would have to be for the rest of his life, or mine or anyone's for that matter. It might be in his future to do something completely different and that would be fine.

---

socks....good points in your post, thanks.

Completely contained [boxed and tightly wrapped] in the Way Ministry... :D-->

And some move "this box" to an offshoot ministry... :D--> :D-->

[Ham]

Maybe he hasn't started his own splinter because of the simply obvious: he just can't find the keys.. (sorry, couldn't resist)

[Steve!]

He hasn't started his own off...., er, sphincter group, er, splinter group because he doesn't like to work that hard.

[Ham]

Yep. He'd have to get out and try to push the thing himself..

[Belle]

Maybe he decided to be a CEO at some multi-million dollar corporation like he said he could do when he was yelling about how incompetent the rest of us are.....

[Belle]

There aren't many "out" who will have anything to do with him, but there are plenty of people still "in" who continue to worship him and who consider him to truly be the MOGFART, he just had a weakness, that's all...everyone has their weak spots.

[Ham]

Yep.. Bally's probably kicking themselves for overlooking his "true talent".. heh heh.

[Hope R.]

I tend to agree with Geek about LCM not being able to start his own thing because of the internet.

I think the internet has prevented many people from joining up with TWI and probably some of the other splinter groups as well.

Go ahead and google LCM's name - or TWI - or JAL. Sure you'll find their own web sites and perhaps one or two more postive sites about them. But when you scroll down you'll also find 100 more web sites warning you off. And not all of them are done by ex-Wayfers either. A person with half a brain wouldn't bother going any further.

If LCM has indeed "come to himself", maybe he realizes he's not the man he knew himself to be.

[Ham]

That is an agreeable, but pretty big IF. But it makes me wonder. What is he afraid of?

I have done a few bad things to folks, and have apologized. To the best of my knowledge, they have forgiven me. It is not too hard to admit you were wrong, or were just plain mean, or out of your mind. I (maybe not others) found even a blanket apology from some of the former leadership acceptable.

So what's stopping Loy? Some here would forgive him without a second thought. Others, maybe never. The fair thing to do would be to give us the choice.

I think the "moggish" thing to do would be to step up to the plate, acknowledge the guilt and at least attempt to restore honor to some of the names he destroyed. Then the ball would be in our court. One problem though. To do so, he would have to admit that he was WRONG.

I don't think he has that in him, but I would like to see him prove me wrong.

True about the internet.. any short cuts to ressurect his "mog-dom" and he would have bad publicity on him like "a texan on a pork chop".

[JustThinking]

Mr H,

I think most folks will forgive bad behavior at some point. Alleged organizational manipulation by a employer acting on behalf of a sexual predator?

Well...different story.

JT

[Ham]

Good point.

[JustThinking]

I'm assuming, of course, that you didn't engage in such behavior.

:)-->

I do agree that it would be great to see him turn his life around. I would help him, if I could.

(Ducking as rocks may get thrown my way...)

[J0nny Ling0]

If Craig wanted to start out cold, and start a ministry, then he would probably have to legally change his name, go to some Church for awhile, and then enroll in the seminary that supports that particular church, denomination, or whatever.

I think about that movie "The Apostle" with old what's his name. Oh yeah, Robert Duvall. He killed a guy in a fit of passion, went down into the deeper South, and ressurrected an old black Church, and with his sin compartmentalized somewhere in his brain, did a whole lot of good for that church and for many individuals.

But, when the Law came for him, he gave it up, and went to jail to pay his debt to society. And while in that jail, at the very end when he was on the chain gang, he still was a preachin! But, he did admit his sin...

[Belle]

I think loy is more like Steve Martin in that movie about him being a con artist revival preacher. Winning bets by working "vinyl siding" into his sermon.

[Eagle]

We had a Toledo fellowship going on when we discovered he was in Toledo. We spoke of whether or not we would allow him into fellowship. I know we were supposed to forgive, but...sometimes you have to use common sense. He was and most likely is a lech. He would try to control, yell, scream, go after the women in fellowship.

We all unanimously voted no, he could not come to our fellowship. He never asked. We just prepared an answer in case he did.

I suppose a few would disagree. Others would hopefully see our situation.

He was banned. Which was rather ironic. We actually voted to mark and avoid the guy.

[Cherished Child]

We don't know ANYTHING about where Craig is (emotionally, spiritually, his relationship with TWI, or his family) at this time. It's ALL raw speculation on our part. But I do know that people have rebounded from worst "broken fellowship" (Paul MURDERED countless Christian believers). I've heard from a number of people that VERY early on, Craig had a tender and humble heart for God. If that's true, it's probably still in there somewhere. Heck, even as we engage in this relatively pointless speculation, he could be "getting right" with God---at least I hope so.

But maybe he just wants to live a quiet life, a simple life, a life he can face with the man in the mirror and live out the rest of his days in relative obscurity. Who knows. He's been through a lot (yes, I know he's put us through a LOT MORE!). He could be writing a book for all we know, and someday, he'll come clean about everything. It's all speculation.

Could I forgive him, even fellowship with him someday? I could forgive him if I felt that he REALLY understood the gravity of his mistakes, asked for forgiveness, and totally changed his behavior and thinking. But fellowship in a Christian setting---? I still get the willies at the very idea of attending a TWI function, one of the off-shoots, or any other "Christian gathering" for that matter. I've still got a lot of healing to do myself.