Dunno. My impression was Loy thought they were lower than the low for not "living up to da corpses commitment", and just could not take away their certificates and rings and stuff.
we went from being active corps in the late 80's to being dropped by Paul M. and then made Corp Alum by Dean Sailor...and yet I had a baby during that new Advanced class so couldn't be a new ADV class grad.....talk about a stupid ranking system!!!
They (John S. with LCM's full knowldege) dropped us from active Corps. I still have the letter stating the reasons, that we would not move and that Hope stayed in contact with copped out Corps. Both were lies but that is a different thread. Later John S. apologized, after he left, which I thought was cool.
When Paul & Phyll G made us Corps Alumni a few months later I told them that it was just a label and that it is not even clear what it means. I told them that if they could clarify exactly what the hell it was, I would be more motivated to live up to it.
I almost laughed out loud when they met with us the following year to drop us from being Corps Alumni. They did not like my attitude when I said "good". I told them I hoped they were finished giving me titles and then taking them away when I did not ask for them in the the first place.
So I think my status went from AC to DFAC to DFACA to D.
Active Corps, to Dropped from Active Corps to Dropped from Active Corps Alumni to Dropped when they finally gave us the boot. Ha!
They can "drop" dead. What a bunch of anal retentive morons! I am embarrassed for them.
Seeing that Martinfail was a grad of the 2nd corps, I would be interested to know his current corps status...I know he was stripped of his clergy status and ousted as president...but was he ever dropped corps?
I mean, what a disgrace...failing to "live up" to the high standards (ha ha ha) of the mighty waycorps! After all his screaming about "cop outs", what's his own lame excuse?
I am trying to understand your post but it sounds like you are saying that those corps who are alums and still around somehow prefer that status? "...why is it considered "better" for them now?" I'm not sure where that thought is coming from. Most of us were "demoted" not by choice but by mandate.
Try to imagine: On one hand we were told that we had missed the mark. We were a major disappointment. We had not lived up to the standard, even though it had always been possible for us to do so with God's help. But we had blown it. We had somehow not lived up to our commitment and had no one to blame but ourselves. It was only God's grace and mercy that allowed us to remain a part of THE ministry: twi, the grand and glorious.
And then we get this letter. A letter stating that we weren't so bad after all. Stating that we were too well-trained and that they had invested far too much in our lives to just let us fall by the wayside and not be utilized to our full potential... After all, vpw had put together the corps program to train the clergy, and somehow that had gotten diluted down to be training for twig-leaders. And if we were only leaders of tens, and not leaders of 100s, well, we were still leaders, right? So lcm made up a new category for us: corps alum.
I was so unhappy when I got that letter. That nametag. Corps Alum status was not a relief, it was a burden. It meant that I was back in the pressure cooker. It meant I had all the responsibility with none of the backing. It meant I was still going to be judged against a standard they had already told me I wasn't living up to... That nametag was like a brand. They might as well have called us "god's losers" as "corps alums".
Oh, and the real kicker? Two weeks after receiving our letter, some of us got our butts chewed out royally because we hadn't thought enough of lcm's generous gesture to drop him a "thankyou" note. How could we be so ungrateful?
I can't speak for those who are still in twi, but let's face it, if they are still loyal they are not thinking clearly are they? (with the noted exception of those that are sticking it out for family's sake) TWI is great at serving people "moose turd pie" and getting them to say "it's good though" because they know that the consequences of recognizing the crap for what it is puts them in a much more difficult situation. So you eat the crap and you praise its taste and you get along quietly, or you don't and you end up leaving. There really isn't much room in-between.
quote: Oh, and the real kicker? Two weeks after receiving our letter, some of us got our butts chewed out royally because we hadn't thought enough of lcm's generous gesture to drop him a "thankyou" note. How could we be so ungrateful?
Like the jerk had enough time to read all those stupid notes. He probably joked about them the way we do here on GSC. "Thank you for the opporunity to serve as a top advanced class grad, and for changing my title from ".... Up" to Corps Alumnus....." gag, gag, gag....
Lianne, I think you are exactly right. It was about money. For some of those poor people, it was about having a spayshul nametag and not being titled FUp. That would keep them committed.
Martinpuke was extremely good at turning his changed decisions into revelation. -->
I am trying to understand your post but it sounds like you are saying that those corps who are alums and still around somehow prefer that status? "...why is it considered "better" for them now?" I'm not sure where that thought is coming from. Most of us were "demoted" not by choice but by mandate.
TheHighWay.....in my opening post, after giving a brief explanation of the new classification, the alumni corps and the "demotion" from active corps, I was attempting to understand this question,...
quote:There are still lots and lots of alumni corps who throw abundant sharing money to twi. Maybe its their way of saying, "I will stay involved with twi, but only on my terms and the standards that I deem fit for my family and life."
Any comments on this?
Understandably, your post highlights the hurt and rejection you experienced from being unjustly tagged as alumni corps, mandated from lcm. Absurdly cult-like.....because what other organization "pulls and discredits a graduation certification" that they handed out years before?
I have talked with several corps grads (i.e. alumni corps) in the past few years who stand with twi and, somehow, express that its "better" now. Has anyone else encountered these people and this attitude?
I know two personally or at least did at one time. But they sure won't talk to me, about anything. Haven't heard from them for YEARS. I know how they were raked over the coals, and still think its da verd of the lord to stay with the outfit. One of their kids left town under what I would consider mysterious circumstances. Probably marked and avoided him. They do not run any kind of fellowship- obviously they are not "active" corpses. But at least they get to keep their rings and certificates. I wonder what that cost..
It is better because all the evil people have gone away. God killed them or sumthin they do not care about the story of how who or what ahappened just that they are now better and more improved .
TWI ate itself. and then threw up a new version that is perfect.
It is very easy for them to blame those that no longer fellowship with them. it is a tighter cult it really is.
been through the fire and those still standing are refined beyond even those who founded the ministry .
I have dear friends still in and they just get more devoted and "better" than the rest of the world as time goes on. full of themselves to the point they now have an acute advantage , of being beyond even the owners and founders of twi so it must be god in it. They do take pride in battle and in hurting and destroying their own people because they are warriors that count on winning the war .
They liken it to a civil war where the evil and good fought within twi and the good won of course now the army is so tough and perfect only the most righteous can stand with them.
the price they paid for God . Funny fact of it all is for me God is LOVE but not to them they feel the mission is one of hard core war at all costs. no distraction allowed .
to them life is a distraction.
When I was involved we loved one another and ocnsidered one another and lead and cared about our life . Options are limited now , it is a suble thing becuase it is a much smaller group you do not have the open doors of conversation within the ranks it is shut down FAST> and furious to save the ministry from what happened before when the back stabbing and gossip began to get out of control.
Like in any disfunction open and honest communication must surround your own issues within yourself( bullets to be used to hurt you later in a less compassionate learning moment) no metion is made of the past because they are all gone God succeeded in getting rid of the trouble and devil spirits and now the household is clean. Any person coming in is asumed filthy but approached with the manner of fixable if and when they ....... it is a cult.
Thanks for the clarification. I admit I haven't spoken to any corps alum lately who is still in and says things are better. But that is the standard statement from all the current twiglets... "Now that lcm is gone, twi has backed off the legalism and its all good now."
I can only speculate that those who remain as loyal corps alum today pretty much bought all of lcm's twisting-turning rationalizations as god-breathed, are thankful for their status, and would just as soon cut off their own arm than leave their beloved ministry. (Even despite my harsh feelings toward my status, I did my best to put those feelings aside and I did exactly what they told me to do for another several years!!)
For these people, if twi tells them things are better now, well by golly, things are better now. End of discussion. Looking closely at the details is not even considered.
I was involved during those years Sky and I got to tell you, as a non corp tc I was a bit befuddled by the whole full time corp, dropped corp and then their reinstatement.
Corp that just the week before were busy setting up for meetings suddenly vanished and were dropped from the corp for some sort of spiritual crime or blunder. Then a few months later they'd reappear somewhere else as an alum. And boy just how wonderful reverend martindale was to even want to waste his time on such ....ups --> ...
I really wondered at that time just what their transgression was but the local leadership wouldn't say so I thought I just wasn't spiritual enough to understand what was going on
Except I did
Loys right hand man LP was our RC LC and BC during that time. I had no problem with the man myself but then I was an hour and a half away so we weren't exactly an area of need or concern for them. But I did get to know alot of the corp and higher up state folks and very
often heard both sides of the story or enough to know twi was turning from a benign cultic org into a vicious personality cult. This concerned me alot and when they took the cowards way of dealing with a problem between my family and them I counted them as an enemy to be dealt with appropriately.
Incidentelly, I was one or those poor fools that left during pop only to return several years later after being repeatedly assured that things (then) were MUCH better...
What I find comical is that those folks that assured me of that were amoung the first to be marked and avoided.
I have to admit that I wrote a letter to LCM before the "Corps Alumni" status existed saying that I was unhappy about being grouped together with the "dropped" corps who had left TWI. After all, I was still standing, dontcha know!?! Why, how dare you put me in the same category with those cop-outs!!
Oy...
So the powers-that-were conjured up the Corps Alumni status. I didn't think for a minute that my letter had much to do with it - but I thought that was pretty considerate of them to respond that way! (LOL).
Now, as we all know, everything in TWI was conditional- there was always a catch. In order to qualify as Corps Alumni - you had to be (according to Paul G., our former BC), "the best example of an Advanced Class Grad in your area". Once you blew it a few times - missed a meeting, didn't go witnessing, fell asleep during a dial-up Sunday Teaching Service, you would very quickly lose your status!
Just another carrot on a stick, really.
For me, it's just another "if I knew then what I know now" - I'd tell them to take their Corps Alumni status and shove it up LCM's, ahem, ... dancing tights.
As John said, we lost our Corps Alumni status only a few months after getting it! The Way giveth, the Way taketh away.
Dammit... I didn't even keep the status long enough to get a name tag to add to my collection!
You woulda had way much more fun joining us "cop outs." We dropped out, and got on with real life, with nada a phone call or anything. Nobody seemed to care, or pay much attention, so we were free to get on with real life.
Who'd a thunk? that it would be so easy to walk away? We couldn't have known, til we did it. :)-->
No lightning bolts struck, no bad car accidents happened, nobody got some dread terminal illness, nothing. Go figure. Life went on in a real normal way, with no cataclysmic repercussions.
Makes one wonder if God was even paying attention.... :D-->
Does anyone remember when LoyBoy announced the new "designation?" It was almost as if he didn't even like it. Almost sneering. I think he preferred just calling those poor folks rude names on screeching tapes.
quote:No lightning bolts struck, no bad car accidents happened, nobody got some dread terminal illness, nothing. Go figure. Life went on in a real normal way, with no cataclysmic repercussions.
ex10, that's because satan was protecting you! Don't you remember that if nothing bad happens to "cop outs" that it's because they have gone to the "dark side" and satan protects those who have turned their back on God.
If good stuff happens to those "in", it's because God is prospering them.
If bad stuff happens to "cop outs" it's because they're getting what they deserve since God can't protect them.
If bad stuff happens to those "within the walls of zion" it's because they are standing for God and satan doesn't like that. They're the ultimate believers "standing in the gap" for the rest of the unbelieving world.
quote:ex10, that's because satan was protecting you! Don't you remember that if nothing bad happens to "cop outs" that it's because they have gone to the "dark side" and satan protects those who have turned their back on God.
If good stuff happens to those "in", it's because God is prospering them.
If bad stuff happens to "cop outs" it's because they're getting what they deserve since God can't protect them.
If bad stuff happens to those "within the walls of zion" it's because they are standing for God and satan doesn't like that. They're the ultimate believers "standing in the gap" for the rest of the unbelieving world.
:D--> :D--> :D-->
Even when I was "in"........this doublespeak bullshxx answer from lcm & co. was NOT one that I could ever swallow. I would have had a better chance at swallowing a football than THAT bullshxx putdown.
why in the f**k don't i hardly ever hear anybody laying into a- holes like balls mos**eda and his spiritually inbred band of native american stepford punk sons and daughter in laws? not to mention every gutless way corps offshoot of his "ministry" who carried out the bot's idiotic foolishness from 1991 till he (balls mosquito)left.
and then they all "went underground"
7 year old cyber apologies aren't enough.
savvy cochese?"
i'll tell you why
because sh**loads of you are registered and post here.
get away from the stupid doctrinal issues and focus in on how the advice, counseling , pressure and "spiritual insight we received from these gutless wonders scarred (not scared) the dang out of the less intelligent such as i.
by the f*cking way, twi is still alive and well in 99.9 percent of these offshoots that grace pretty much every state of america. the only difference is they are much more subtle with their legalism, greed for money and blind allegiance to vpw, .... gear, dale wide mouth, vinny begin again and others.
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Ham
Dunno. My impression was Loy thought they were lower than the low for not "living up to da corpses commitment", and just could not take away their certificates and rings and stuff.
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DaddyHoundog
wanna hear somthing funny---
we went from being active corps in the late 80's to being dropped by Paul M. and then made Corp Alum by Dean Sailor...and yet I had a baby during that new Advanced class so couldn't be a new ADV class grad.....talk about a stupid ranking system!!!
Lianne
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igotout
They (John S. with LCM's full knowldege) dropped us from active Corps. I still have the letter stating the reasons, that we would not move and that Hope stayed in contact with copped out Corps. Both were lies but that is a different thread. Later John S. apologized, after he left, which I thought was cool.
When Paul & Phyll G made us Corps Alumni a few months later I told them that it was just a label and that it is not even clear what it means. I told them that if they could clarify exactly what the hell it was, I would be more motivated to live up to it.
I almost laughed out loud when they met with us the following year to drop us from being Corps Alumni. They did not like my attitude when I said "good". I told them I hoped they were finished giving me titles and then taking them away when I did not ask for them in the the first place.
So I think my status went from AC to DFAC to DFACA to D.
Active Corps, to Dropped from Active Corps to Dropped from Active Corps Alumni to Dropped when they finally gave us the boot. Ha!
They can "drop" dead. What a bunch of anal retentive morons! I am embarrassed for them.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Seeing that Martinfail was a grad of the 2nd corps, I would be interested to know his current corps status...I know he was stripped of his clergy status and ousted as president...but was he ever dropped corps?
I mean, what a disgrace...failing to "live up" to the high standards (ha ha ha) of the mighty waycorps! After all his screaming about "cop outs", what's his own lame excuse?
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TheHighWay
Skyrider,
I am trying to understand your post but it sounds like you are saying that those corps who are alums and still around somehow prefer that status? "...why is it considered "better" for them now?" I'm not sure where that thought is coming from. Most of us were "demoted" not by choice but by mandate.
Try to imagine: On one hand we were told that we had missed the mark. We were a major disappointment. We had not lived up to the standard, even though it had always been possible for us to do so with God's help. But we had blown it. We had somehow not lived up to our commitment and had no one to blame but ourselves. It was only God's grace and mercy that allowed us to remain a part of THE ministry: twi, the grand and glorious.
And then we get this letter. A letter stating that we weren't so bad after all. Stating that we were too well-trained and that they had invested far too much in our lives to just let us fall by the wayside and not be utilized to our full potential... After all, vpw had put together the corps program to train the clergy, and somehow that had gotten diluted down to be training for twig-leaders. And if we were only leaders of tens, and not leaders of 100s, well, we were still leaders, right? So lcm made up a new category for us: corps alum.
I was so unhappy when I got that letter. That nametag. Corps Alum status was not a relief, it was a burden. It meant that I was back in the pressure cooker. It meant I had all the responsibility with none of the backing. It meant I was still going to be judged against a standard they had already told me I wasn't living up to... That nametag was like a brand. They might as well have called us "god's losers" as "corps alums".
Oh, and the real kicker? Two weeks after receiving our letter, some of us got our butts chewed out royally because we hadn't thought enough of lcm's generous gesture to drop him a "thankyou" note. How could we be so ungrateful?
I can't speak for those who are still in twi, but let's face it, if they are still loyal they are not thinking clearly are they? (with the noted exception of those that are sticking it out for family's sake) TWI is great at serving people "moose turd pie" and getting them to say "it's good though" because they know that the consequences of recognizing the crap for what it is puts them in a much more difficult situation. So you eat the crap and you praise its taste and you get along quietly, or you don't and you end up leaving. There really isn't much room in-between.
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DaddyHoundog
I think it was a way to get dropped wc to stick around and continue to abs.
Lianne
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Nottawayfer
Like the jerk had enough time to read all those stupid notes. He probably joked about them the way we do here on GSC. "Thank you for the opporunity to serve as a top advanced class grad, and for changing my title from ".... Up" to Corps Alumnus....." gag, gag, gag....
Lianne, I think you are exactly right. It was about money. For some of those poor people, it was about having a spayshul nametag and not being titled FUp. That would keep them committed.
Martinpuke was extremely good at turning his changed decisions into revelation.
-->
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Oakspear
Uncle:
Martindale was dropped from the Corps when they took away his status as clergy.
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skyrider
TheHighWay.....in my opening post, after giving a brief explanation of the new classification, the alumni corps and the "demotion" from active corps, I was attempting to understand this question,...
Understandably, your post highlights the hurt and rejection you experienced from being unjustly tagged as alumni corps, mandated from lcm. Absurdly cult-like.....because what other organization "pulls and discredits a graduation certification" that they handed out years before?
I have talked with several corps grads (i.e. alumni corps) in the past few years who stand with twi and, somehow, express that its "better" now. Has anyone else encountered these people and this attitude?
And why do they stay in twi?
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Ham
I know two personally or at least did at one time. But they sure won't talk to me, about anything. Haven't heard from them for YEARS. I know how they were raked over the coals, and still think its da verd of the lord to stay with the outfit. One of their kids left town under what I would consider mysterious circumstances. Probably marked and avoided him. They do not run any kind of fellowship- obviously they are not "active" corpses. But at least they get to keep their rings and certificates. I wonder what that cost..
I don't think much has changed.
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mj412
How is it better now?
oh this is beautiful just spiritual ya know.
It is better because all the evil people have gone away. God killed them or sumthin they do not care about the story of how who or what ahappened just that they are now better and more improved .
TWI ate itself. and then threw up a new version that is perfect.
It is very easy for them to blame those that no longer fellowship with them. it is a tighter cult it really is.
been through the fire and those still standing are refined beyond even those who founded the ministry .
I have dear friends still in and they just get more devoted and "better" than the rest of the world as time goes on. full of themselves to the point they now have an acute advantage , of being beyond even the owners and founders of twi so it must be god in it. They do take pride in battle and in hurting and destroying their own people because they are warriors that count on winning the war .
They liken it to a civil war where the evil and good fought within twi and the good won of course now the army is so tough and perfect only the most righteous can stand with them.
the price they paid for God . Funny fact of it all is for me God is LOVE but not to them they feel the mission is one of hard core war at all costs. no distraction allowed .
to them life is a distraction.
When I was involved we loved one another and ocnsidered one another and lead and cared about our life . Options are limited now , it is a suble thing becuase it is a much smaller group you do not have the open doors of conversation within the ranks it is shut down FAST> and furious to save the ministry from what happened before when the back stabbing and gossip began to get out of control.
Like in any disfunction open and honest communication must surround your own issues within yourself( bullets to be used to hurt you later in a less compassionate learning moment) no metion is made of the past because they are all gone God succeeded in getting rid of the trouble and devil spirits and now the household is clean. Any person coming in is asumed filthy but approached with the manner of fixable if and when they ....... it is a cult.
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TheHighWay
skyrider,
Thanks for the clarification. I admit I haven't spoken to any corps alum lately who is still in and says things are better. But that is the standard statement from all the current twiglets... "Now that lcm is gone, twi has backed off the legalism and its all good now."
I can only speculate that those who remain as loyal corps alum today pretty much bought all of lcm's twisting-turning rationalizations as god-breathed, are thankful for their status, and would just as soon cut off their own arm than leave their beloved ministry. (Even despite my harsh feelings toward my status, I did my best to put those feelings aside and I did exactly what they told me to do for another several years!!)
For these people, if twi tells them things are better now, well by golly, things are better now. End of discussion. Looking closely at the details is not even considered.
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herbiejuan
I was involved during those years Sky and I got to tell you, as a non corp tc I was a bit befuddled by the whole full time corp, dropped corp and then their reinstatement.
Corp that just the week before were busy setting up for meetings suddenly vanished and were dropped from the corp for some sort of spiritual crime or blunder. Then a few months later they'd reappear somewhere else as an alum. And boy just how wonderful reverend martindale was to even want to waste his time on such ....ups
--> ...
I really wondered at that time just what their transgression was but the local leadership wouldn't say so I thought I just wasn't spiritual enough to understand what was going on
Except I did
Loys right hand man LP was our RC LC and BC during that time. I had no problem with the man myself but then I was an hour and a half away so we weren't exactly an area of need or concern for them. But I did get to know alot of the corp and higher up state folks and very
often heard both sides of the story or enough to know twi was turning from a benign cultic org into a vicious personality cult. This concerned me alot and when they took the cowards way of dealing with a problem between my family and them I counted them as an enemy to be dealt with appropriately.
Incidentelly, I was one or those poor fools that left during pop only to return several years later after being repeatedly assured that things (then) were MUCH better...
What I find comical is that those folks that assured me of that were amoung the first to be marked and avoided.
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engine
I am proud that i am a COPPED OUT CORPS GRAD as of 1986.
I like to keep things simple.
rob
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ex10
I was in the "cop-out" class of '87.
So like, didn't anybody get suspicious when most of us dropped out in the late '80's?
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Hope R.
I have to admit that I wrote a letter to LCM before the "Corps Alumni" status existed saying that I was unhappy about being grouped together with the "dropped" corps who had left TWI. After all, I was still standing, dontcha know!?! Why, how dare you put me in the same category with those cop-outs!!
Oy...
So the powers-that-were conjured up the Corps Alumni status. I didn't think for a minute that my letter had much to do with it - but I thought that was pretty considerate of them to respond that way! (LOL).
Now, as we all know, everything in TWI was conditional- there was always a catch. In order to qualify as Corps Alumni - you had to be (according to Paul G., our former BC), "the best example of an Advanced Class Grad in your area". Once you blew it a few times - missed a meeting, didn't go witnessing, fell asleep during a dial-up Sunday Teaching Service, you would very quickly lose your status!
Just another carrot on a stick, really.
For me, it's just another "if I knew then what I know now" - I'd tell them to take their Corps Alumni status and shove it up LCM's, ahem, ... dancing tights.
As John said, we lost our Corps Alumni status only a few months after getting it! The Way giveth, the Way taketh away.
Dammit... I didn't even keep the status long enough to get a name tag to add to my collection!
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ex10
Hope,
You woulda had way much more fun joining us "cop outs." We dropped out, and got on with real life, with nada a phone call or anything. Nobody seemed to care, or pay much attention, so we were free to get on with real life.
Who'd a thunk? that it would be so easy to walk away? We couldn't have known, til we did it.
:)-->
No lightning bolts struck, no bad car accidents happened, nobody got some dread terminal illness, nothing. Go figure. Life went on in a real normal way, with no cataclysmic repercussions.
Makes one wonder if God was even paying attention....
:D-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
Ex10...When Stephen was stoned, the Lord stood up...
When Martinfail was fired, He sat back down.
;)-->
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JustThinking
Does anyone remember when LoyBoy announced the new "designation?" It was almost as if he didn't even like it. Almost sneering. I think he preferred just calling those poor folks rude names on screeching tapes.
JT
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Belle
ex10, that's because satan was protecting you! Don't you remember that if nothing bad happens to "cop outs" that it's because they have gone to the "dark side" and satan protects those who have turned their back on God.
If good stuff happens to those "in", it's because God is prospering them.
If bad stuff happens to "cop outs" it's because they're getting what they deserve since God can't protect them.
If bad stuff happens to those "within the walls of zion" it's because they are standing for God and satan doesn't like that. They're the ultimate believers "standing in the gap" for the rest of the unbelieving world.
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skyrider
Even when I was "in"........this doublespeak bullshxx answer from lcm & co. was NOT one that I could ever swallow. I would have had a better chance at swallowing a football than THAT bullshxx putdown.
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ex10
gosh,
All this long time satan's been protecting me and I don't even have to give him 10%.
:D-->
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Belle
Ain't it kewl, ex?
His abuse is much more tolerable, too.
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grasshopper
you know something?
here's a total derailment.
why in the f**k don't i hardly ever hear anybody laying into a- holes like balls mos**eda and his spiritually inbred band of native american stepford punk sons and daughter in laws? not to mention every gutless way corps offshoot of his "ministry" who carried out the bot's idiotic foolishness from 1991 till he (balls mosquito)left.
and then they all "went underground"
7 year old cyber apologies aren't enough.
savvy cochese?"
i'll tell you why
because sh**loads of you are registered and post here.
get away from the stupid doctrinal issues and focus in on how the advice, counseling , pressure and "spiritual insight we received from these gutless wonders scarred (not scared) the dang out of the less intelligent such as i.
by the f*cking way, twi is still alive and well in 99.9 percent of these offshoots that grace pretty much every state of america. the only difference is they are much more subtle with their legalism, greed for money and blind allegiance to vpw, .... gear, dale wide mouth, vinny begin again and others.
golly gosh i sound bitter
sorry 'bout that
hopper
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