LCM's ultimate statement on micromanaging way corps:
In January of 1998, when the emergency cost-cutting policies (found in the document section) were being dictated on consecutive corps hook-ups.......lcm, in vehement anger, stated: "I'll run every damn twig in the nation if I have to so its done right!"
regarding earlier posts...don't worry about it. I admit, out side of a few people that I remember I don't think that highly of most of them. Then, I think of my family and realise they are just caught up in this mess with no self worth outside of the ministry or are just too afraid to say anything to thier spouses.
Sky,
What was the draw in those years for new corpes? Or what was the pitch from the existing corpes? Were ya'll required to or have quotas for new corpes recruits? I know I was busy trying to get out of debt so that I could go back to school (while working full time to pay for it), so I didn't notice a lot of what you are talking about. Although, I was asked repeatedly "when are you going in the corps?" over and over and over. By the same people most of the time...as if they had forgotten the "I'm in debt" part.
I can't imagine what the draw would be. Was that feeling of superiority it? Maybe folks thought that once they were corps God would show them all this "heavy revy" to explain all the apparent stupidity.
I think what we have all been forgetting is da word of VP.
"Revelation given once may change as circumstances change."
Clearly you kids had forgotten your Keys to Spiritual Conformity. You may have gotten your KSC's with your KFC's (Keys to Fornicating "Consensually") ;)-->
Thanks for saying sorry. Not that you ever wronged me personally. It is just big of you. And it gives a little hope. It would be nice if a few people I remember would say sorry. A lot of us feel that way.
quote:John R*ynolds. He was Treasurer for a time, but was booted out by the fox when she took over. I think, too, his conscious was getting to him and he was getting very ill from all the stress. I don't know if he is still in, but I imagine (I hope) he will wake up one day. He really seemed to be nice and genuine and it must have been killing him to see all the inside stuff and realize what a hoax the whole thing was. I could be wrong, but I do hope he and his wife wake up and get out.
I always thought he was genuine also, but he was present when lcm was confronted about his adultery. He was on the BOD at that time, and he should have moved to have martinpuke removed back then. He should have blown the siren and let people know what was really going on. But it was hidden for a year. And then they only came out because they wanted to beat the newspapers from telling their side.
I saw him coming out in to the hallway right before we were having our big meeting where martinpuke was resigning as prez of twitville. You could see the stress in him, and he was sighing like crazy. I know he and his wife admired martinpuke. It must have been very sad for him to martinpuke was a major f*ckup.
You are probably right. The stress probably did get to him and affect his health. I hope they get out too.
There are a lot of other Documents in the Waydale Documents section on the main GS Cafe site.
The no gift policy was totally insane. First - put your full time Corps on the most meager exsistance possible - then don't allow anyone to give them ANYTHING to help them out!
We have a lemon tree in our backyard. The thing is remarkably fertile for such a small tree. One year, it produced over 200 lemons. I was giving bags of them away! One Sunday - I bagged up bunches of them for the folks in our fellowship. Our BC (who was our HFC) could not take them - they were a GIFT - a BRIBE. I WAS GIVING THEM TO EVERYONE - NOT JUST HIM! But... I was allowed to give them to his KIDS so they could make lemonade if they wanted to.
Then, it was our BC's 20th Anniversary - a bunch of us got together and made a card. We also bought some inexpensive flowers to give them with the card. They had to CALL THE LC to see if they could accept the flowers! OMG!
At Christmas, I could get gifts for the kids - but it was suggested that I get them practical things, like pajamas or slippers - that's what they needed - no fun stuff.
There's more - but it's all so insane it's hard to believe it really happened sometimes.
Tommy Strangelove - there are some wonderful people who went full time. It blew my mind that they did. Some of them had good jobs and nice homes and had been in their areas for years - and they gave it all up for Waypay. It amazes me that some of them are still sticking with it. I will continue to keep these folks in my thoughts - and hope someday they will get out for good.
Sky - I have heard that many people who went full time were living in sub-standard housing, that they didn't have enough to give their kids the basics and ate a lot of macaroni and cheese... and that the "abundant life" didn't apply to them. Did you observe this as well?
Hope --- thanks for attaching those documents to this thread. Concerning your questions about corps housing and things.....yes, a few of the corps were living in sub-standard housing, especially the single corps.
As far as corps kids eating lots of macaroni and cheese.....in cases like this, the food budget was probably being diverted into another expense category, namely entertainment. (hahahaha) It really was challenging for corps parents when other school kids & neighbor kids were going to birthday parties, movies, the zoo, campouts, etc. Just didn't seem fair to keep the kids in the back of the house while class was running, day after day. Uuuuugh.
I have heard that many people who went full time were living in sub-standard housing, that they didn't have enough to give their kids the basics and ate a lot of macaroni and cheese... and that the "abundant life" didn't apply to them.
Hope, This was way before the full-time corps period but from when the late 70's early 80's I noticed that most of the full time on the field staff were not financially abundant. If they came on staff with any savings, they didn't have any left in a year or so. They had spent it for stuff the way didn't cover like vacations or medical needs. There were constant agruments with HQ about how high the heating bill was, who should live with them to split the rent etc.
Made me realize I didn't want to be on staff.
I believe this was when vpw was still involved. In fact now that I think of it, back in the early 70's when vpw fired Heefner and Doop and forced John Lynn to become more under HQ control a lot of the issues were about who controled the money. So this attitude goes way back.
I remember hearing about the dorm conditions at hq, the extra thin walls in the trailers, required attendance at lunch time, excessive restrictions on what was allowed in your room, no private phone calls, dependency on hq for everything, extremely sub-standard pay and all the problems with medical expenses - even just going to the dr for a normal check-up was a major ordeal, working hours in addition to "household duties".....
It just seemed like a pitiful existence and anything but "more abundant". I was adamant that I would never go on staff.
After hearing all the horror stories about "how bright the light is" at hq and on your life in WC training....all the terrible things they did and said to people, all the idiotic rules and lamblasting for not following them to a "t", I couldn't imagine why anyone would want to go through that. I'd rather grow and change on my own - you know that growth without compulsion kinda thing we were taught but not allowed.
I can only imagine that being dropped from active WC status, although painful and horribly embarrassing, must have been a relief once the shock and betrayal wore off.
But then, Belle, after you had packed up and left campus, you had nowhere to go. No one really wanted you in their branch or limb, your family was suspicious of you, you couldn't go limping back to wherever you came from.
And you were closely watched when you found some place to land. Every word you spoke, act you performed was examined in minute detail. Even if you were sincerely desirous of correcting whatever shortcoming had caused you to be booted from the WC, you were foreordained to fall short of the mark, having already proved yourself unworthy of inhaling oxygen on the same planet with the Red Thread, the Sacred Remnant, the Precious Few who had their lips pursed just right to kiss the MOG's bum to his liking.
I still remember this little spouse corp grad raging that my wonderful, kind, loving husband was weak and had no character because we had been instructed to "get rid of" our 12 year old son. This was "get rid of" in terms of an unwanted dog, and once it was actually halfway suggested we end his life. In order to be pure, perfect, pious and worthy of the Present Truth - we were NOT putting God first in our lives. (Of course we realize that it was TWI we were not putting first, no one by then knew there was a difference).
What was the draw in those years for new corpes? Or what was the pitch from the existing corpes? Were ya'll required to or have quotas for new corpes recruits? I know I was busy trying to get out of debt so that I could go back to school (while working full time to pay for it), so I didn't notice a lot of what you are talking about. Although, I was asked repeatedly "when are you going in the corps?" over and over and over. By the same people most of the time...as if they had forgotten the "I'm in debt" part.
I can't imagine what the draw would be. Was that feeling of superiority it? Maybe folks thought that once they were corps God would show them all this "heavy revy" to explain all the apparent stupidity.
Lindy.....sorry I left ya hanging on this question for a few days. ;)-->
Yeah....I think its a combination of several things: 1) constant promotion by tapes/magazine/leaders, 2) acceptance and attention given to the candidate by the bot, and 3) no secular goals or employment advancements.
Probably a lot more, but these three are always hanging close by. :D-->
One of the scary things about Craig's decision, uh, "revelation" was how different each corpse was. Recruitment went through phases. When I got in during the late 80s, if you could walk and chew gum without hurting yourself, you were corpse material. Later it was became only for "leaders of 10s of 10s." (As if all of the branches were that big anymore) The standards were all over the place. Then they all get dumped into his delusional bucket and are asked to perform at a level many never expected.
So many people were set up for failure by a guy with no real management experience. They had no business trying to be responsible for other's lives when they could BARELY manage their own. Mistaking zeal for ability seemed to be a TWI hallmark. Guess it started at the top though.
About that era, was that it affected us fellowship goers as well. We would have to make up our OWN schedules for the month, because we had to "plan the adversary out of our lives". We had to fill in when our mandatory teachings were, and what our mandatory topics of the teaching should be. I would want to teach on something i read about some cool thing in the OT, but could not teach on it unless it keyed off a recent Way mag, a recent SNS tape, etc. Fellowship became so rigid and regulated. You could expect what would happen everytime without even going. Also, leadership would have such a firm grip on your life, that the overall vibe for me was suffocation.
So, everyone in the fellowship would be teaching, but it would all be on topics we already heard in the sns, way mag, collaterals, blah blah blah. Naturally, some people should NOT be teaching, thats why we have leaders who have skills in that area so the whole room is not bored to tears.
Geez, full time corps sounded good, but they had so much more time to meddle in OUR lives and think up more ways to make fellowship "fun". You could tell that they wanted something excited to happen so they would have something to do, but it just became too regulated and mundane.
WG, I didn't think of it that way. I suppose that would have been even more scary, degrading and destructive to the self-esteem than staying. :(--> And we didn't think anything was wrong....
I'm still wondering where the "rise and expansion" is that was supposed to come with the wc going full time and then again when they went back to really working. Does anyone know any wc that signed up someone for the class? I don't. Never did hear of one.
quote: So, everyone in the fellowship would be teaching, but it would all be on topics we already heard in the sns, way mag, collaterals, blah blah blah. Naturally, some people should NOT be teaching, thats why we have leaders who have skills in that area so the whole room is not bored to tears.
I distinctly remember Martindale saying regarding the full time decision that if it didn't work, and they had to go back to the Corps getting "secular" employment, the ministry would have failed.
Fast forward to the announcement that the Corps was going off full time employment with TWI: the spin was not that there was any failure involved, in fact, it was God's will! Now the highly trained and spiritual Way Corps would be able to move the Word even greater than before since they would be out in the job market; people would hear the Word who otherwise might not because The Corps would be working!
The biggest laugh was that Martindale was promoting that the Way Corps could easily move into middle management jobs due to their experiencve leading people. -->
Now I know that some of you Corps grads were pretty smart and started your own sucessful businesses, or were professionals in your field. (and you guys lost out when, after dropping your career or business, you had to start all over again a few years later because "revelation changed") but there were a lot of Corps grads out there who couldn't think their way out of a paper bag, and some of these fine specimens were angling for management jobs!
It is a sad thing really, to make people believe they are something they're not. I've known some former paid staff leadership that were shell shocked to find out "the world" didn't want to hire them to be in charge. They did not want or need them to tell everyone what to do. They found themselves working harder than they had in a long time at menial jobs at minimum wage. It was a rude awakening and very stressful for them to find out they really didn't have anything to offer, and they had families to support. No one was going to pay them to lord over them. They were out of touch with technology and society.
One of the scary things about Craig's decision, uh, "revelation" was how different each corpse was. Recruitment went through phases. When I got in during the late 80s, if you could walk and chew gum without hurting yourself, you were corpse material. Later it was became only for "leaders of 10s of 10s." (As if all of the branches were that big anymore) The standards were all over the place. Then they all get dumped into his delusional bucket and are asked to perform at a level many never expected.
So many people were set up for failure by a guy with no real management experience. They had no business trying to be responsible for other's lives when they could BARELY manage their own. Mistaking zeal for ability seemed to be a TWI hallmark. Guess it started at the top though.
JT
Yeah...it sure did. Wierwille was the master con man and he taught his protege Martindumb, but Martindumb couldn't figure it out and he ended up hitting the wall harder than Mr MaGoo playing alai
It is a sad thing really, to make people believe they are something they're not. I've known some former paid staff leadership that were shell shocked to find out "the world" didn't want to hire them to be in charge. They did not want or need them to tell everyone what to do. They found themselves working harder than they had in a long time at menial jobs at minimum wage. It was a rude awakening and very stressful for them to find out they really didn't have anything to offer, and they had families to support. No one was going to pay them to lord over them. They were out of touch with technology and society.
These things are true. TWI, that is, The Way Corps, did not teach leadership skills AT ALL. They taught us to have a slave mentality. That's what they wanted of us so we would run classes and the like. This mindset actually helps in in some secular jobs, especially ones where physical labor is involved. Some companies love having mindless workers to do their bidding. When it comes to middle and upper level management, being a mindless robot doesn't work. Companies want their managers to be able to work with people and their different personalities and skills. They also want their managers to have (gasp!) ideas. If one embraced the mindset TWI promoted then that person would be out of step with the real world and therefore incapable of leading actual people. What exacerbated the problem was that so many of us were fooled into thinking that the TWI mindset was Godly and therefore superior. So we would hang on to our learned mindset wondering why the rest of the world wasn't beating a path to our doors wanting to partake in our great wisdom.
Ever notice the "skill" at which Martindale and Wierwille handled conflict? Basically it was if you didn't agree then just get the hell out of here. Go start your own ministry blah blah blah. Well...businesses don't embrace that management style, they can't. If someone in TWI came up with a different idea of how to do something, for the most part it was looked upon as rebellion. That doesn't work in the real world either although I've seen a number of insecure managers afraid of different perspectives. There are a lot of other skills that are required in business that were never passed down to us. I doubt that Wierwille or Martindale had a clue themselves as to what they were.
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skyrider
Ten years ago, mr. martinfail began scheming another escalated attempt to rev-up the corps. With ongoing efforts to purge homos and home mortgages from twi's ranks, loy waybrained a plan that he said
skyrider
I like threads like this too....that's why I start them. For me, it helps to dismantle the twi-machinery and logically explain its component parts. In this manner, others can see how misjudgements,
skyrider
LCM's ultimate statement on micromanaging way corps:
In January of 1998, when the emergency cost-cutting policies (found in the document section) were being dictated on consecutive corps hook-ups.......lcm, in vehement anger, stated: "I'll run every damn twig in the nation if I have to so its done right!"
I almost burst out laughing.
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
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lindyhopper
Mr.H,
regarding earlier posts...don't worry about it. I admit, out side of a few people that I remember I don't think that highly of most of them. Then, I think of my family and realise they are just caught up in this mess with no self worth outside of the ministry or are just too afraid to say anything to thier spouses.
Sky,
What was the draw in those years for new corpes? Or what was the pitch from the existing corpes? Were ya'll required to or have quotas for new corpes recruits? I know I was busy trying to get out of debt so that I could go back to school (while working full time to pay for it), so I didn't notice a lot of what you are talking about. Although, I was asked repeatedly "when are you going in the corps?" over and over and over. By the same people most of the time...as if they had forgotten the "I'm in debt" part.
I can't imagine what the draw would be. Was that feeling of superiority it? Maybe folks thought that once they were corps God would show them all this "heavy revy" to explain all the apparent stupidity.
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lindyhopper
I think what we have all been forgetting is da word of VP.
"Revelation given once may change as circumstances change."
Clearly you kids had forgotten your Keys to Spiritual Conformity. You may have gotten your KSC's with your KFC's (Keys to Fornicating "Consensually")
;)-->
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lindyhopper
BTW, Sky.
Thanks for saying sorry. Not that you ever wronged me personally. It is just big of you. And it gives a little hope. It would be nice if a few people I remember would say sorry. A lot of us feel that way.
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Nottawayfer
I always thought he was genuine also, but he was present when lcm was confronted about his adultery. He was on the BOD at that time, and he should have moved to have martinpuke removed back then. He should have blown the siren and let people know what was really going on. But it was hidden for a year. And then they only came out because they wanted to beat the newspapers from telling their side.
I saw him coming out in to the hallway right before we were having our big meeting where martinpuke was resigning as prez of twitville. You could see the stress in him, and he was sighing like crazy. I know he and his wife admired martinpuke. It must have been very sad for him to martinpuke was a major f*ckup.
You are probably right. The stress probably did get to him and affect his health. I hope they get out too.
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Hope R.
Vision and Direction: A work manual for the full time Way Corps
Emergency Cutbacks: 1998 (PDF file)
No Gift Policy
There are a lot of other Documents in the Waydale Documents section on the main GS Cafe site.
The no gift policy was totally insane. First - put your full time Corps on the most meager exsistance possible - then don't allow anyone to give them ANYTHING to help them out!
We have a lemon tree in our backyard. The thing is remarkably fertile for such a small tree. One year, it produced over 200 lemons. I was giving bags of them away! One Sunday - I bagged up bunches of them for the folks in our fellowship. Our BC (who was our HFC) could not take them - they were a GIFT - a BRIBE. I WAS GIVING THEM TO EVERYONE - NOT JUST HIM! But... I was allowed to give them to his KIDS so they could make lemonade if they wanted to.
Then, it was our BC's 20th Anniversary - a bunch of us got together and made a card. We also bought some inexpensive flowers to give them with the card. They had to CALL THE LC to see if they could accept the flowers! OMG!
At Christmas, I could get gifts for the kids - but it was suggested that I get them practical things, like pajamas or slippers - that's what they needed - no fun stuff.
There's more - but it's all so insane it's hard to believe it really happened sometimes.
Tommy Strangelove - there are some wonderful people who went full time. It blew my mind that they did. Some of them had good jobs and nice homes and had been in their areas for years - and they gave it all up for Waypay. It amazes me that some of them are still sticking with it. I will continue to keep these folks in my thoughts - and hope someday they will get out for good.
Sky - I have heard that many people who went full time were living in sub-standard housing, that they didn't have enough to give their kids the basics and ate a lot of macaroni and cheese... and that the "abundant life" didn't apply to them. Did you observe this as well?
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skyrider
Hope --- thanks for attaching those documents to this thread. Concerning your questions about corps housing and things.....yes, a few of the corps were living in sub-standard housing, especially the single corps.
As far as corps kids eating lots of macaroni and cheese.....in cases like this, the food budget was probably being diverted into another expense category, namely entertainment. (hahahaha) It really was challenging for corps parents when other school kids & neighbor kids were going to birthday parties, movies, the zoo, campouts, etc. Just didn't seem fair to keep the kids in the back of the house while class was running, day after day. Uuuuugh.
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My3Cents
Hope, This was way before the full-time corps period but from when the late 70's early 80's I noticed that most of the full time on the field staff were not financially abundant. If they came on staff with any savings, they didn't have any left in a year or so. They had spent it for stuff the way didn't cover like vacations or medical needs. There were constant agruments with HQ about how high the heating bill was, who should live with them to split the rent etc.
Made me realize I didn't want to be on staff.
I believe this was when vpw was still involved. In fact now that I think of it, back in the early 70's when vpw fired Heefner and Doop and forced John Lynn to become more under HQ control a lot of the issues were about who controled the money. So this attitude goes way back.
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Belle
I remember hearing about the dorm conditions at hq, the extra thin walls in the trailers, required attendance at lunch time, excessive restrictions on what was allowed in your room, no private phone calls, dependency on hq for everything, extremely sub-standard pay and all the problems with medical expenses - even just going to the dr for a normal check-up was a major ordeal, working hours in addition to "household duties".....
It just seemed like a pitiful existence and anything but "more abundant". I was adamant that I would never go on staff.
After hearing all the horror stories about "how bright the light is" at hq and on your life in WC training....all the terrible things they did and said to people, all the idiotic rules and lamblasting for not following them to a "t", I couldn't imagine why anyone would want to go through that. I'd rather grow and change on my own - you know that growth without compulsion kinda thing we were taught but not allowed.
I can only imagine that being dropped from active WC status, although painful and horribly embarrassing, must have been a relief once the shock and betrayal wore off.
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Watered Garden
But then, Belle, after you had packed up and left campus, you had nowhere to go. No one really wanted you in their branch or limb, your family was suspicious of you, you couldn't go limping back to wherever you came from.
And you were closely watched when you found some place to land. Every word you spoke, act you performed was examined in minute detail. Even if you were sincerely desirous of correcting whatever shortcoming had caused you to be booted from the WC, you were foreordained to fall short of the mark, having already proved yourself unworthy of inhaling oxygen on the same planet with the Red Thread, the Sacred Remnant, the Precious Few who had their lips pursed just right to kiss the MOG's bum to his liking.
I still remember this little spouse corp grad raging that my wonderful, kind, loving husband was weak and had no character because we had been instructed to "get rid of" our 12 year old son. This was "get rid of" in terms of an unwanted dog, and once it was actually halfway suggested we end his life. In order to be pure, perfect, pious and worthy of the Present Truth - we were NOT putting God first in our lives. (Of course we realize that it was TWI we were not putting first, no one by then knew there was a difference).
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skyrider
Lindy.....sorry I left ya hanging on this question for a few days.
;)-->
Yeah....I think its a combination of several things: 1) constant promotion by tapes/magazine/leaders, 2) acceptance and attention given to the candidate by the bot, and 3) no secular goals or employment advancements.
Probably a lot more, but these three are always hanging close by.
:D-->
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JustThinking
One of the scary things about Craig's decision, uh, "revelation" was how different each corpse was. Recruitment went through phases. When I got in during the late 80s, if you could walk and chew gum without hurting yourself, you were corpse material. Later it was became only for "leaders of 10s of 10s." (As if all of the branches were that big anymore) The standards were all over the place. Then they all get dumped into his delusional bucket and are asked to perform at a level many never expected.
So many people were set up for failure by a guy with no real management experience. They had no business trying to be responsible for other's lives when they could BARELY manage their own. Mistaking zeal for ability seemed to be a TWI hallmark. Guess it started at the top though.
JT
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Thelema
About that era, was that it affected us fellowship goers as well. We would have to make up our OWN schedules for the month, because we had to "plan the adversary out of our lives". We had to fill in when our mandatory teachings were, and what our mandatory topics of the teaching should be. I would want to teach on something i read about some cool thing in the OT, but could not teach on it unless it keyed off a recent Way mag, a recent SNS tape, etc. Fellowship became so rigid and regulated. You could expect what would happen everytime without even going. Also, leadership would have such a firm grip on your life, that the overall vibe for me was suffocation.
So, everyone in the fellowship would be teaching, but it would all be on topics we already heard in the sns, way mag, collaterals, blah blah blah. Naturally, some people should NOT be teaching, thats why we have leaders who have skills in that area so the whole room is not bored to tears.
Geez, full time corps sounded good, but they had so much more time to meddle in OUR lives and think up more ways to make fellowship "fun". You could tell that they wanted something excited to happen so they would have something to do, but it just became too regulated and mundane.
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Belle
WG, I didn't think of it that way. I suppose that would have been even more scary, degrading and destructive to the self-esteem than staying.
:(--> And we didn't think anything was wrong....
I'm still wondering where the "rise and expansion" is that was supposed to come with the wc going full time and then again when they went back to really working. Does anyone know any wc that signed up someone for the class? I don't. Never did hear of one.
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Belle
AMEN, SISTAH!!
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100% Free
It is a sad thing really, to make people believe they are something they're not. I've known some former paid staff leadership that were shell shocked to find out "the world" didn't want to hire them to be in charge. They did not want or need them to tell everyone what to do. They found themselves working harder than they had in a long time at menial jobs at minimum wage. It was a rude awakening and very stressful for them to find out they really didn't have anything to offer, and they had families to support. No one was going to pay them to lord over them. They were out of touch with technology and society.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Yeah...it sure did. Wierwille was the master con man and he taught his protege Martindumb, but Martindumb couldn't figure it out and he ended up hitting the wall harder than Mr MaGoo playing alai
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Broken Arrow
These things are true. TWI, that is, The Way Corps, did not teach leadership skills AT ALL. They taught us to have a slave mentality. That's what they wanted of us so we would run classes and the like. This mindset actually helps in in some secular jobs, especially ones where physical labor is involved. Some companies love having mindless workers to do their bidding. When it comes to middle and upper level management, being a mindless robot doesn't work. Companies want their managers to be able to work with people and their different personalities and skills. They also want their managers to have (gasp!) ideas. If one embraced the mindset TWI promoted then that person would be out of step with the real world and therefore incapable of leading actual people. What exacerbated the problem was that so many of us were fooled into thinking that the TWI mindset was Godly and therefore superior. So we would hang on to our learned mindset wondering why the rest of the world wasn't beating a path to our doors wanting to partake in our great wisdom.
Ever notice the "skill" at which Martindale and Wierwille handled conflict? Basically it was if you didn't agree then just get the hell out of here. Go start your own ministry blah blah blah. Well...businesses don't embrace that management style, they can't. If someone in TWI came up with a different idea of how to do something, for the most part it was looked upon as rebellion. That doesn't work in the real world either although I've seen a number of insecure managers afraid of different perspectives. There are a lot of other skills that are required in business that were never passed down to us. I doubt that Wierwille or Martindale had a clue themselves as to what they were.
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