For me it was right after the "homo purge" and the subsequent last-minute scrapping of the WOW program.
The Way Corps were noticeably more agressive, more intrusive and just plain mean.
"Leadership" began to preemptively squelch all opposition or disagreement. For example when a decision was made, the announcement would be accompanied by an assetion that anyone who disagreed was "out to lunch", or some other equally loving label.
The last time I saw lcm, he and HA, and Mrs. Wierwille were on "the bus", and stopped in Cloquet Mn., on a trip somewhere further north, for a *retreat*.
I do not remember the year (back in about 1985 or 86), but the "corps guy" in charge of the meeting (one Ch*** Gr*******), did his best to do the meeting in *proper* style, and Craiggers openly laughed at his attempt to replecate
*Headquarters*, in an open air setting, here in Minnesota.
I wondered about the *lack of consideration*, since much work had gone into setting up the meeting, and on short notice -- many of us showed up to welcome them.
I wrote it off (at the time), to my lack of ignorance of what was happenning -- but very soon after that -- stories started that could not be denied, and I was able to "make the link", and realize that a bunch of us (all of us) were being played for suckers.
I remember as the bus drove off -- they honked the horn. There musta been a PA system on board, cause the last thing I ever heard lcm say :
"Geez - sounds like this thing has gas"
I know he was talking about the bus, but in retrospect, I think it applied more to him, than to the bus.
Soon after that, I was M&A, cause I had the audacity/stupidity to bring up to the twig, what I just told you all.
Out of all that attended that meeting -- I think I was the only one who was ....ed, that the efforts to welcome them, were taken so lightly, and *they* told to me to take a hike, as a result.
quote:During your time in TWI, when was it that any of you got that "feeling" that all just wasn't right in "the Household".
---when vpw drank his drambuie while corps sat on the floor
---when vpw railed vehemently on a corps guy who fell asleep during vp's teaching
---when vpw crashed the twig hopper in Canada in 1982 and it was totally silenced over
---when lcm was noted for "dances with spirits"
---when lcm's anger and viciousness towards geer didn't cease
---when donna told linder to wake lcm by 9am on Sunday at an ACS. Why a wake-up call for the spiritual mog? And, what was he DOING that saturday night?
I was in a southern state with a couple in charge, both ordained.
I could not say a word to my room mates or anyone without it funnelled back to them. I was constantly harangued for the most minor things, things I innocently said that somehow didn't line up with "THE WORD." Eventually, I was so totally oppressed, afraid to say or do anything.
I was told I was "poison to the branch" by the male ordained leader.
What did I do? I don't know. I worked, went to all the meetings, paid my share into the family fund, ABS'd, didn't lie or steal. I got a guy into the class, and I didn't see these holy ordained people produce any fruit of their own. I certainly wasn't sleeping around even as a single person. I was TOTALLY unaware of the sexual goings-on in the "ministry."
The atmosphere of total oppression and condemnation in that branch indicated to me that something was not right.
I didn't get it yet intellectually but deep inside I knew something was wrong. It wasn't until 1988 that I walked away, but since that time in the early 80's until the day I left, I never felt good about TWI.
There were things that hit me the wrong way right from the start (early 1980s) but I figured "nothing's perfect". I experienced my real first "wakeup" moment right before graduating from the corps, but by then I was far too adept at shrugging things off to let it settle in my brain for long. It was only throughout the 90s as our leadership ROUTINELY set us up and hung us out to dry than I began to get fed up. And when I began to see the leadership make mistakes and not admit them, let alone apologize, yet threaten to have others booted for the same kinds of mistakes I'd had enough.
I always noticed a difference in how the top leaders acted when they were in public and how they acted when they were away from the crowds...it was disturbing.
I suppose the suspicions were always there...they became an issue after Veepee croaked and martindumb started changing the bible around to suit himself.
I suppose when lcm started dancing around in tights, smoking pot and screwing the leading lady of the "production"...I would call that a major turning point.
I had red flags from the very beginning. Starting with the secrecy surrounding the setting up of the class. They made it all seem so mysterious.
Then there was an incident regarding sexual molestation between two kids, which I already posted on another thread and don't want to go into here.
The fact that NO ONE in TWI would help or even visit when I was caring for my dying mother at home. I had more assitance from virtual strangers than I had from TWI. None of them attended the funeral with me either.
The first time I ever saw LCM teach, I think I had just finished PFAL. I thought, I love fellowship and I liked the class, but I don't EVER want to hear that man teach again. And I didn't for a long time, because our area was not particularly "tapped into headquarters" at that time.
Really, there are just too many to name. I ignored them all. I was young and frightened. My mom was dying. I was trying to turn my life around after several years of drug and alcohol abuse. I desperately needed to believe in something and I soaked up the "love bombing" like a dehydrated man who has spent three days in the desert.
The culture of rampant alchohol and wild parties and ......? other things. This was not just an occasional thing either. Oh, and just about everybody smoked like VPW. Pot was not all that uncommon either. I know of at least one minister who came and taught classes at Emporia who smoked pot some nights before he taught us.
As a young person I kinda liked it, don't get me wrong. The majority general population believers did not know of some of the wild stuff going on but many leaders and ordained clergy did because they were there with us gettin just as drunk on Jack Daniels as we were. (Then driving all over the place.)The next day we would be in our Sunday fellowships like good little believers.
It was fun, but I should have known it just wasn't right in the context of a supposed Christian organization claiming to live according to the bible. Hypocrites at best!
There were lots of "little" things, of course; but I think it was really the beginning of the end for me when my BC asked me if I was homosexual. There's spiritual insight and awareness, for you! -->
It makes me realize just how lucky I was since I didn't get too deep into the ministry, and how my "non-believer" wife helped me see where things were going early on. She was very good at spotting con artists. Had I let my guard down, I might be singing a different tune.
I was at that meeting. You couldn't have given me a nudge and clued me in? No, I had to go on staff to figure it out.
Oh, well, C**** Gr****ch set up the meeting and he's still _in_. The lights just never seem to come on for some of us...
:(-->
Sorry Geo -- truely. Wish I could have put things together more qickly.
Took me a while after that meeting, to put two and two together, but finally got my *math* right.
The thing that truely ....ed me off was the outright arrogance of lcm, and his *dissing* the way things were done -- which was "twi style", and his total lack of recognition for what was pulled off on such a short notice, and all for his benefit.
I remember (vaguely now), that I went through a lot to get off work in mid-day, to be there -- and I know that those who set the whole thing up, did a whole lot more.
To see lcm smirking, and laughing about the "poor quality" of the open air set-up, ticked me off. Especially -- since I was "in" at the time, and it was my twig/branch/area leader, that was under fire.
So CG is still "in" eh?? Doesn't surprise me. What shade of brown is his nose now? He did a great job of kicking me out of that WOW house I moved into after my divorce, since my job at the time meant that I missed a lot of the classes that were running there.
Sometimes -- I wonder why I feel sorry for the guy (after what lcm did to him at that meeting in Cloquet).
Guess there is a whole lot more here, that had worse experiences. You included.
Yeah, I also had some red flags from the beginning, but it was so cool to feel like I was learning the Bible that I dismissed the practical things.
I noticed the unnatural reverence for the WC in the area and was pretty ticked off at them always asking for money for "love offerings".
I noticed cliques among the WC and how they acted holier than thou and elite. Instead of being ticked about that I was jealous and wanted in that group.
I noticed how some people were constantly working their a$$e$ off on things while others just sat back and did nothing. It was an extremely unfair balance and I felt some people were being taken advantage of.
I should have put my foot down when I had 104 degree fever and could barely hold my head up but they insisted I drive to the class because I couldn't miss a session. What good could possibly come from me driving a half an hour to lay in a lazy boy chair away from everyone else in a dark room and sleeping the whole time? --> But I never missed a session! I just wonder how many people I infected that night.
I thought those all night prayer sessions were really odd. Never understood that. You'd think we were trying to pray away WWIII with the urgency they spoke of the need for it.
All the gatherings that were supposed to be "for fun" seemed forced and no one seemed to really be enjoying themselves.
When one set of WC came to our area, the other WC in the area were warning everyone to get their sh1t together and be on our best behavior. I remember thinking, what the he11? Are these people slave drivers and why should I be worried about leadership?
When they started dictating how I my wedding would be, what kind of location I would have and how involved my family could be in the wedding....I actually didn't notice. It seemed to be "the right thing" to do. :(--> Breaks my heart to this day. I ruined the one greatest event in a woman's life that her mom looks forward to as much as she does. :(--> Especially a Southern Mama.
Hindsight is 20/20 and there were so many things I should have picked up on or acted on. I just pray that if red flags fly in my face in the future about anything I'm quiet and peaceful enough to recognize them and take proper action.
Thinking back on it, my very first inkling that they might be lying to me was when I saw the photographs of the board of trustees. Back then they were V. P. Weirwille, Harry Weirwille, and Howard Allen. The photos were arranged in such a way that it reminded me of a Buddahist altar.
I asked why the photos, and why in a prominent place in the living room? They said that it was because they knew these guys personally.
Their words made sense, but their actions belied them. They seemed to reverence the pictures. They did everything except bow down and pray before them (of course what they did in private, I don't know). I should have bolted then, but I took them at their word.
BTW, their mantra was, "The word, the word, and nothing but the word!" Sometimes, I wondered just what "word" they meant - theirs or Gods.
quote: Breaks my heart to this day. I ruined the one greatest event in a woman's life that her mom looks forward to as much as she does. Especially a Southern Mama.
Belle, trust me. The next time will be sooooo much better (if you decide that's what you want to do).:)--> The first wedding won't mean anything when you finally get married to someone you love and the wedding is actually about the couple, not some stupid foot ministry.
quote: try inviting your mom and family to emporia, kansas, where you're with 50 or so OTHER couples getting married around a pond....
Oh, ex! :(--> I can only imagine.... The shock we put our parents through, eh? Geeze, it's amazing they still love and put up with us. Talk about true unconditional love!!
WN! I know she still smarts about that one, but she has forgiven me. I told her next time I get married (and I hope I do --- and before I'm too old to have kids) that we're going to elope or get married by the Justice of the Peace and then we're going to have one he11 of a party for all our friends. Blue Jeans, BBQ and Cold Beer! A live band or kick a$$ dj. It will be quite the shindig. :D--> Heck, I'll want all the GSpots that can to attend.....now, gotta find that man who can handle me. ;)-->
---when vpw crashed the twig hopper in Canada in 1982 and it was totally silenced over
Skyrider - I was around then but didn't hear anything about it. Can you elaborate? Twig Hopper was the little (six seater) plane wasn't it? I got to ride in it once.
quote:Skyrider - I was around then but didn't hear anything about it. Can you elaborate? Twig Hopper was the little (six seater) plane wasn't it? I got to ride in it once.
My3Cents -- no, the twig hopper was the motorcycle with sidecar that was given to vpw as a gift in 1982 at Living Victoriously. It was "a love gift" in appreciation for vpw and "40 years as twi's president."
Vpw had his twig hopper up in Ontario and crashed it in October 1982. It was brought back to hq and secretly restored! No prayers for vpw. No mention of the crash. No embarrassment for twi's mog!
The mog was a "spiritual man" and didn't miss divine revelation to stop. The silencing of this information SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS!!!
It's things like this that give me SERIOUS DOUBTS about twi's history. They silence what they don't want others to know and shout from the rooftops the great "spiritual walks" of mogs.
quote:Vpw had his twig hopper up in Ontario and crashed it in October 1982. It was brought back to hq and secretly restored! No prayers for vpw. No mention of the crash. No embarrassment for twi's mog!
Learn something new everyday Sky! -->
when I saw a gorgeous corps woman (my roommate) walk out of the assistant corps coordinator's apartment at 4:00 am. I was on bless patrol. I said nothing. She looked at me and said..."He wanted to talk to me." --> Duh, like I was born yesterday.
When I saw the same woman boast to others that she got permission by the assistant corps coordinator to spend more than her allowed $30/month budget so she could buy her very needed alligator cowboy boots.
When I heard that VP had said to a group of people who were in a meeting because an ordained clergy (married) was having an affair with an 18 year old..."Is that what you're all worked up about?"
When people were treated so heartlessly and with such cruelty and that that behaviour was praised and those leaders were destined to go places in the TWI corporate ladder, I knew I was in the wrong place.
It makes me sick. It makes me sick. It makes me sick.
The price we paid was beyond belief to have their stinking doctrine.
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Oakspear
For me it was right after the "homo purge" and the subsequent last-minute scrapping of the WOW program.
The Way Corps were noticeably more agressive, more intrusive and just plain mean.
"Leadership" began to preemptively squelch all opposition or disagreement. For example when a decision was made, the announcement would be accompanied by an assetion that anyone who disagreed was "out to lunch", or some other equally loving label.
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dmiller
The last time I saw lcm, he and HA, and Mrs. Wierwille were on "the bus", and stopped in Cloquet Mn., on a trip somewhere further north, for a *retreat*.
I do not remember the year (back in about 1985 or 86), but the "corps guy" in charge of the meeting (one Ch*** Gr*******), did his best to do the meeting in *proper* style, and Craiggers openly laughed at his attempt to replecate
*Headquarters*, in an open air setting, here in Minnesota.
I wondered about the *lack of consideration*, since much work had gone into setting up the meeting, and on short notice -- many of us showed up to welcome them.
I wrote it off (at the time), to my lack of ignorance of what was happenning -- but very soon after that -- stories started that could not be denied, and I was able to "make the link", and realize that a bunch of us (all of us) were being played for suckers.
I remember as the bus drove off -- they honked the horn. There musta been a PA system on board, cause the last thing I ever heard lcm say :
"Geez - sounds like this thing has gas"
I know he was talking about the bus, but in retrospect, I think it applied more to him, than to the bus.
Soon after that, I was M&A, cause I had the audacity/stupidity to bring up to the twig, what I just told you all.
Out of all that attended that meeting -- I think I was the only one who was ....ed, that the efforts to welcome them, were taken so lightly, and *they* told to me to take a hike, as a result.
Who do I say thank you to!!
:)-->
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oldiesman
a few thoughts:
--cancellation of the WOW program
--shelving of PFAL
--statement that "The Word is now Over the World"
--anal retentive legalism
--harsh treatment to long-time employees
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skyrider
---when vpw drank his drambuie while corps sat on the floor
---when vpw railed vehemently on a corps guy who fell asleep during vp's teaching
---when vpw crashed the twig hopper in Canada in 1982 and it was totally silenced over
---when lcm was noted for "dances with spirits"
---when lcm's anger and viciousness towards geer didn't cease
---when donna told linder to wake lcm by 9am on Sunday at an ACS. Why a wake-up call for the spiritual mog? And, what was he DOING that saturday night?
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outandabout
I had doubts way back in '81,'82....
I was in a southern state with a couple in charge, both ordained.
I could not say a word to my room mates or anyone without it funnelled back to them. I was constantly harangued for the most minor things, things I innocently said that somehow didn't line up with "THE WORD." Eventually, I was so totally oppressed, afraid to say or do anything.
I was told I was "poison to the branch" by the male ordained leader.
What did I do? I don't know. I worked, went to all the meetings, paid my share into the family fund, ABS'd, didn't lie or steal. I got a guy into the class, and I didn't see these holy ordained people produce any fruit of their own. I certainly wasn't sleeping around even as a single person. I was TOTALLY unaware of the sexual goings-on in the "ministry."
The atmosphere of total oppression and condemnation in that branch indicated to me that something was not right.
I didn't get it yet intellectually but deep inside I knew something was wrong. It wasn't until 1988 that I walked away, but since that time in the early 80's until the day I left, I never felt good about TWI.
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George Aar
Dave,
I was at that meeting. You couldn't have given me a nudge and clued me in? No, I had to go on staff to figure it out.
Oh, well, C**** Gr****ch set up the meeting and he's still in. The lights just never seem to come on for some of us...
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excathedra
i'm ashamed to say when frikkin hell looked me in the eyes, i thought it was paradise
--
ps. i don't mean wierwille's eyes literally or what i went through. it's more complicated than that
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TheHighWay
There were things that hit me the wrong way right from the start (early 1980s) but I figured "nothing's perfect". I experienced my real first "wakeup" moment right before graduating from the corps, but by then I was far too adept at shrugging things off to let it settle in my brain for long. It was only throughout the 90s as our leadership ROUTINELY set us up and hung us out to dry than I began to get fed up. And when I began to see the leadership make mistakes and not admit them, let alone apologize, yet threaten to have others booted for the same kinds of mistakes I'd had enough.
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GrouchoMarxJr
When did the suspicions start?
I always noticed a difference in how the top leaders acted when they were in public and how they acted when they were away from the crowds...it was disturbing.
I suppose the suspicions were always there...they became an issue after Veepee croaked and martindumb started changing the bible around to suit himself.
I suppose when lcm started dancing around in tights, smoking pot and screwing the leading lady of the "production"...I would call that a major turning point.
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Abigail
I had red flags from the very beginning. Starting with the secrecy surrounding the setting up of the class. They made it all seem so mysterious.
Then there was an incident regarding sexual molestation between two kids, which I already posted on another thread and don't want to go into here.
The fact that NO ONE in TWI would help or even visit when I was caring for my dying mother at home. I had more assitance from virtual strangers than I had from TWI. None of them attended the funeral with me either.
The first time I ever saw LCM teach, I think I had just finished PFAL. I thought, I love fellowship and I liked the class, but I don't EVER want to hear that man teach again. And I didn't for a long time, because our area was not particularly "tapped into headquarters" at that time.
Really, there are just too many to name. I ignored them all. I was young and frightened. My mom was dying. I was trying to turn my life around after several years of drug and alcohol abuse. I desperately needed to believe in something and I soaked up the "love bombing" like a dehydrated man who has spent three days in the desert.
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igotout
The culture of rampant alchohol and wild parties and ......? other things. This was not just an occasional thing either. Oh, and just about everybody smoked like VPW. Pot was not all that uncommon either. I know of at least one minister who came and taught classes at Emporia who smoked pot some nights before he taught us.
As a young person I kinda liked it, don't get me wrong. The majority general population believers did not know of some of the wild stuff going on but many leaders and ordained clergy did because they were there with us gettin just as drunk on Jack Daniels as we were. (Then driving all over the place.)The next day we would be in our Sunday fellowships like good little believers.
It was fun, but I should have known it just wasn't right in the context of a supposed Christian organization claiming to live according to the bible. Hypocrites at best!
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GeorgeStGeorge
There were lots of "little" things, of course; but I think it was really the beginning of the end for me when my BC asked me if I was homosexual. There's spiritual insight and awareness, for you!
--> 
George
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Steve Swenton
Thanks for the replies everyone!
It makes me realize just how lucky I was since I didn't get too deep into the ministry, and how my "non-believer" wife helped me see where things were going early on. She was very good at spotting con artists. Had I let my guard down, I might be singing a different tune.
Thanks again...
Steve.
¥
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dmiller
Sorry Geo -- truely. Wish I could have put things together more qickly.
Took me a while after that meeting, to put two and two together, but finally got my *math* right.
The thing that truely ....ed me off was the outright arrogance of lcm, and his *dissing* the way things were done -- which was "twi style", and his total lack of recognition for what was pulled off on such a short notice, and all for his benefit.
I remember (vaguely now), that I went through a lot to get off work in mid-day, to be there -- and I know that those who set the whole thing up, did a whole lot more.
To see lcm smirking, and laughing about the "poor quality" of the open air set-up, ticked me off. Especially -- since I was "in" at the time, and it was my twig/branch/area leader, that was under fire.
So CG is still "in" eh?? Doesn't surprise me. What shade of brown is his nose now? He did a great job of kicking me out of that WOW house I moved into after my divorce, since my job at the time meant that I missed a lot of the classes that were running there.
Sometimes -- I wonder why I feel sorry for the guy (after what lcm did to him at that meeting in Cloquet).
Guess there is a whole lot more here, that had worse experiences. You included.
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Belle
Yeah, I also had some red flags from the beginning, but it was so cool to feel like I was learning the Bible that I dismissed the practical things.
I noticed the unnatural reverence for the WC in the area and was pretty ticked off at them always asking for money for "love offerings".
I noticed cliques among the WC and how they acted holier than thou and elite. Instead of being ticked about that I was jealous and wanted in that group.
I noticed how some people were constantly working their a$$e$ off on things while others just sat back and did nothing. It was an extremely unfair balance and I felt some people were being taken advantage of.
I should have put my foot down when I had 104 degree fever and could barely hold my head up but they insisted I drive to the class because I couldn't miss a session. What good could possibly come from me driving a half an hour to lay in a lazy boy chair away from everyone else in a dark room and sleeping the whole time?
--> But I never missed a session! I just wonder how many people I infected that night.
I thought those all night prayer sessions were really odd. Never understood that. You'd think we were trying to pray away WWIII with the urgency they spoke of the need for it.
All the gatherings that were supposed to be "for fun" seemed forced and no one seemed to really be enjoying themselves.
When one set of WC came to our area, the other WC in the area were warning everyone to get their sh1t together and be on our best behavior. I remember thinking, what the he11? Are these people slave drivers and why should I be worried about leadership?
When they started dictating how I my wedding would be, what kind of location I would have and how involved my family could be in the wedding....I actually didn't notice. It seemed to be "the right thing" to do.
:(--> Breaks my heart to this day. I ruined the one greatest event in a woman's life that her mom looks forward to as much as she does. 
:(--> Especially a Southern Mama.
Hindsight is 20/20 and there were so many things I should have picked up on or acted on. I just pray that if red flags fly in my face in the future about anything I'm quiet and peaceful enough to recognize them and take proper action.
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Technobyte
Wow, so many "red flags" I missed!!!
Thinking back on it, my very first inkling that they might be lying to me was when I saw the photographs of the board of trustees. Back then they were V. P. Weirwille, Harry Weirwille, and Howard Allen. The photos were arranged in such a way that it reminded me of a Buddahist altar.
I asked why the photos, and why in a prominent place in the living room? They said that it was because they knew these guys personally.
Their words made sense, but their actions belied them. They seemed to reverence the pictures. They did everything except bow down and pray before them (of course what they did in private, I don't know). I should have bolted then, but I took them at their word.
BTW, their mantra was, "The word, the word, and nothing but the word!" Sometimes, I wondered just what "word" they meant - theirs or Gods.
I hope you innies are paying attention!
Technobyte
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excathedra
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Nottawayfer
Belle, trust me. The next time will be sooooo much better (if you decide that's what you want to do).
:)--> The first wedding won't mean anything when you finally get married to someone you love and the wedding is actually about the couple, not some stupid foot ministry.
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Belle
Oh, ex!
:(--> I can only imagine.... The shock we put our parents through, eh? Geeze, it's amazing they still love and put up with us. Talk about true unconditional love!!
WN! I know she still smarts about that one, but she has forgiven me. I told her next time I get married (and I hope I do --- and before I'm too old to have kids) that we're going to elope or get married by the Justice of the Peace and then we're going to have one he11 of a party for all our friends. Blue Jeans, BBQ and Cold Beer! A live band or kick a$$ dj. It will be quite the shindig.
:D--> Heck, I'll want all the GSpots that can to attend.....now, gotta find that man who can handle me. 
;)-->
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Jim
I know I shouldn't be amused by this, but I just can't stop laughing... What did your mom say?
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My3Cents
Skyrider - I was around then but didn't hear anything about it. Can you elaborate? Twig Hopper was the little (six seater) plane wasn't it? I got to ride in it once.
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skyrider
My3Cents -- no, the twig hopper was the motorcycle with sidecar that was given to vpw as a gift in 1982 at Living Victoriously. It was "a love gift" in appreciation for vpw and "40 years as twi's president."
Vpw had his twig hopper up in Ontario and crashed it in October 1982. It was brought back to hq and secretly restored! No prayers for vpw. No mention of the crash. No embarrassment for twi's mog!
The mog was a "spiritual man" and didn't miss divine revelation to stop. The silencing of this information SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS!!!
It's things like this that give me SERIOUS DOUBTS about twi's history. They silence what they don't want others to know and shout from the rooftops the great "spiritual walks" of mogs.
skyrider
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A la prochaine
Learn something new everyday Sky!
-->
It makes me sick. It makes me sick. It makes me sick.
The price we paid was beyond belief to have their stinking doctrine.
I'm pi$$ed!
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outandabout
Vee Pee crashed the twig hopper?????
ha ha that's a new one!!
Of course they didn't tell us...after all how could the man of God of the world for our day and time actually get into an accident?
ha ha ha ha ha
He crashed the twig hopper! ha ha ha ha ha
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