Could this incident be a (mis)application of this verse?
I John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it .
So many corpse and clergy were "spotting" or detecting devil spirits back then. It became commonplace. In order to qualify as a spiritual heavy, more heavy than other clergy, a minister would have to "spot" someone born again of the wrong seed and refuse to pray for them, like the verse says. Seed spotting became the next level of craziness they had to graduate to in order to feel like a "heavy."
I wouldn't be surprised if that minister bragged to his friends later that he received a revelation that devil seed was involved in those kids, that 1 John 5:16 was called for, and that God gave him no other "revelation" so he walked out the door with a dramatic flair. Heavies had to be dramatic to make an impact and gain a reputation.
Galen, that makes some sense. But they usually did not stop there. Whatever happened to the dire predictions of disaster? Like, the world is coming to an end in 1976, or Y2K.
Usually along with the supposed prediction, an utterance was mumbled under breath about something like "unless people rise up" or other such nonsense. When the disaster DID NOT occur, this would also validate the great importance of their great "ministry in operation" that averted it.
Funny how nobody called them on this junk, at least publically (at least that I am aware of). The underlings were left to deal with it- "well, God just showed him what MIGHT have happened if.." Cripe, anybody can guess at what MIGHT happen.
"If you leave, you will end up dying a lone and miserable death, your daughter will become a basket case" never happened to one famous poster here.
For their corn cob outfit to have any chance of success, they somehow have to maintain the appearance that they actually have some kind of power over the followers.
Funny how when they can't avert disaster in a follower's life, it is never the "averter's" fault. It is ALWAYS the follower's sin, unbelief, or other such nonsense. "He died because he worked in such a dark place". Unbelievable!
I don't see how anybody puts up with it anymore. There is zero accountability.
Some have held fast to their connection with the Holy Spirit.
There were some wonderful ones then, and by and large from what I have seen, those who went through the fire, with their Holy Spirit connection in tact, are more kind, more tenderhearted, more sub-servient (serving beneath the Lord) than ever.
I certainly agree Kit, but there sure seemed to be quite a few exceptions. I think the really really rotten command more attention than they are worth.
I have met a good share of really good folks, Ralph D. being one of that number.
I have not gone corps, but those that I met went into da service for one of two reasons: 1. Love for God and God's people, just wanting to learn how to serve better
2. Those that saw it as a ticket to power.
Must be kinda like the tares, they both grow till "harvest". I am thankful that some good came out of the experience.
Your words really lifted me so much. I have to share them with my wife. It seems all here would have prayed for our kids if we asked. My wife was so hurt she thought she was considered worthless for even asking for the prayer.
It is true her two (and now mine) adult children strayed from the path, both in trouble with the law, not taking anything seriously, one almost in prison were it not for us (and we believe especially God) intervening. During our prayer one of our sons was involved in a fatal auto accident. My step-son, the metally challenged one, being passive as he is, was sitting in the front seat of the car before leaving when his "best" friend told him he wanted the front and for him to get in the back. My step-sons two friends sat in the front drinking while he fell asleep. He awakened in the hospital and found out that the one that took his place in the front seat was killed instantly, and the other was the driver who had his legs crushed and is not expected to live more than a few years more.
The funny thing is, our mentally challenged one is the one now asking us about God, though he fumbles through life a lot. But he is alive now and has no permanant injuries from that accident. He used to like to hang around with punks but now stays away from them. His life has improved tremendously.
The other has normal intelligence and had recently called about church. That is surprising because he was considered the biggest punk in his county. He had a record of several assaults and so many awful mistakes. He missed prison by a hair. Today he does none of the things he did just a year and a half ago.
I think the clergyman thought that the guys deserved what was coming to them and deserved no prayer. That is my thinking on that. Debbie and I had no where else to go but God. Both had refused our advise for more than five years. Suddenly now, though, they both listen.
All I know is what we have seen in their lives since beginning prayer. We just thought it might be helpful to have an ordained person helping us in prayer.
Greasespotters prayed for me once and I have to say I was delivered. At least I like to think so. It was that colon cancer scare. I had the bleeding and the polyp and the family history of cancer. The biopsy report came back negative. I like to believe a lot of people here helped me in prayer, regardless of whether they "liked" me or not.
dear eagle, i'm sad for all you and debbie have been through. and i am very very glad to hear about how your sons are doing. i will keep them in my prayers.
i hope you both know it was not up to that person to decide about not praying because of what he thought they had or did not have coming to them.
once in a while i call a church around here (i've never stepped foot in the joint except for a wedding) because they have a prayer request thingy. i tell them what i need them to pray for. they never ask me if i'm in their church or for any details. they just add me to their list. nice people.
That sounds like a really nice church. Bless your wonderful heart for your prayers, too. We still continue prayer for both of them. We probably always will.
To be honest, we literally became afraid to ask others to pray for them now, afraid of what they think of them and what they would think of us ever since being ignored for prayer requests. I guess we have to get over it and gain the courage you have to just go to the church and ask.
sorry for all you've been through ((((((eagle))))))) that's why you feel so whipped
(no courage on my part needed) my neighbors (a couple in their late 60s) told me about their church's hot line for prayer or whatever you call it. incidentally, they know i do not attend any church and they have never ever gotten on my case.
Reminds me of a girl we were in fellowship with years ago in New Zealand who lost a couple of babies in quick succession ( found out later it was due to genetic defects )....but during all the turmoil us others were told to give the couple some 'space' then nek minute we were all absolutely castigated for no being spiritually mature enough to go and comfort her ! In hindsight it was just the so-called clergyman freaking out over a situation he couldn't handle.
Reading this thread from 10 years ago reminded me of an incident I am aware of...
A few years ago someone I know called one of the splinter group leaders asking for prayer...the splinter group leader asked them if they were officially "prayer partners" in his ministry...which really means...are you sending me money. They said no and the splinter group leader refused to pray for them...it's all part of the "God business" dontchaknow.
Reading this thread from 10 years ago reminded me of an incident I am aware of...
A few years ago someone I know called one of the splinter group leaders asking for prayer...the splinter group leader asked them if they were officially "prayer partners" in his ministry...which really means...are you sending me money. They said no and the splinter group leader refused to pray for them...it's all part of the "God business" dontchaknow.
Do people really think that prayers from a splinter group "pay for prayer" head honcho is going to carry more weight with God than people in their own family and friends? I would tend to think God would have to tune out the static to listen to the important people.
Reading this thread from 10 years ago reminded me of an incident I am aware of...
A few years ago someone I know called one of the splinter group leaders asking for prayer...the splinter group leader asked them if they were officially "prayer partners" in his ministry...which really means...are you sending me money. They said no and the splinter group leader refused to pray for them...it's all part of the "God business" dontchaknow.
wow this is crazy reading this again since 2004 & 2005. also, if i'm not mistaken, i am almost positive eagle was ordained in the way
i am reminded of something i posted here more than once but it bears repeating in light of this subject
when psycho geer was in charge in great britain, he threw a dear friend of mine out (there's so much more to that horrible sick account)
anyway, i called wierewille on the house phone (you know press the extension) at HQ and told on geer and mentioned that "you are always welcome at the way" thing
wierwille replied "how long do i have to suck your corps azzes"
i said well the least you could do is pray for him
i think he said yeah, but definitely hung up on me with a loud THUD ( to get the accurate account of this, i probably would have to look at what i posted years ago ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha )
Strange, but all these reports of clergy refusing to pray for unbelievers/those who no longer fellowship brings (now) to mind that dozy PFAL story of the man who heard VPW was on the train and sought prayer "but I do not believe in your Jesus." And the man was healed. And VPW was granted the freedom of the city.
If the story is even remotely true, it shows VPW or some of the entourage was willing to pray for this unbeliever male - not only that, but that the pray-er expected the prayer to be answered. Which is apparently was.
And yet - that is so not the behaviour of TWI as a whole. Pray for unbelievers? Pah! Pray for those who no longer fellowship with the Way? Double Pah! Forget it!
Did Jesus pray with the Samaritan woman whom he met at the wellside? Doesn't say. Did he pray with the citizens of Samaria, when he'd stayed for a little while? Again, doesn't say. But as he was welcomed to preach and teach, it would be surprising if he didn't pray with some of them. And also teach them how to pray for themselves.
quote:
I need input into the idea that some people are considered 'worthless' to pray for. That is how we took this rejection for prayer for our kids by this clergyman. Any ideas on this?
The only people 'worthless' are the ones that won't help. They are, indeed, worthless for helping you with your issue. As to why, I think we'll never know. It could be that the clergy in question was afraid, was uncomfortable with the situation, or was having a personal faith issue and doubted the benefit of prayer.
This really brings up a bigger issue. How effective was TWI leadership at counseling and providing help and support to those who were less able and less fortunate than the rank-and-file paying followers? I'd say not. From VPW down, the philosophy was to take the class, read the books, read the Word and your problems would go away. This philosopy certainly maximized the cashflow to TWI, but it also neglected the whole concept of Christian charity and left lots of people behind.
Add to that the fact that much of the latter leadership had neither the inclination or the born people skills needed for effective counseling. I realize all you asked for was prayer. Nonetheless, I think it all runs back the the same root. The lack of Christian charity and the inability/nondesire to help people outside of the TWI paradigm.
Jim, great post! Â If you had problems, TWI didn't want to know about them. Â It was your problem, you deal with it. Â TWI was not good at dealing with people's problems. That was one of the reasons I left. Â
It's a devilish, ungodly and inane attempt to control, manipulate and disparage their followers. No one is beyond prayer. God's the one who choses what to do about the prayer. They are playing God and passing judgement which we aren't supposed to do when they refuse to pray for someone.
I know a couple who wanted to adopt a child through "the system". They wanted an older child, say 4-10 years old. B*b Moneyhands told the couple that they shouldn't adopt an older child because they have been through "the system" and were probably ridden with tons of emotional and behavioral problems, not to mention most likely courting devil spirits.
They wanted to adopt anyway, despite his misgivings about their plans. He told them that if they went ahead with the adoption to never ask him to pray for them and that kid because they were going against his counsel and God wouldn't be able to protect them.
This couple adopted the most wonderful child and they are one of the happiest families I know. Thank God they didn't take the abuse any longer!! Now they are reaping the rewards for following GOD and not BOB!
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excathedra
what sounds even colder and really bizarre is he didn't tell you and your wife any response what's with that ? i don't believe ANYONE is not worth praying for i'm sure plenty of wayfer heads (innies
Jim
The only people 'worthless' are the ones that won't help. They are, indeed, worthless for helping you with your issue. As to why, I think we'll never know. It could be that the clergy in question w
GeorgeStGeorge
The only time the Bible tells you not to pray for someone is if he's committed the "sin unto death." The "clergyman" in question is a schmuck. George
Galen
Could this incident be a (mis)application of this verse?
I John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it .
So many corpse and clergy were "spotting" or detecting devil spirits back then. It became commonplace. In order to qualify as a spiritual heavy, more heavy than other clergy, a minister would have to "spot" someone born again of the wrong seed and refuse to pray for them, like the verse says. Seed spotting became the next level of craziness they had to graduate to in order to feel like a "heavy."
I wouldn't be surprised if that minister bragged to his friends later that he received a revelation that devil seed was involved in those kids, that 1 John 5:16 was called for, and that God gave him no other "revelation" so he walked out the door with a dramatic flair. Heavies had to be dramatic to make an impact and gain a reputation.
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Ham
Galen, that makes some sense. But they usually did not stop there. Whatever happened to the dire predictions of disaster? Like, the world is coming to an end in 1976, or Y2K.
Usually along with the supposed prediction, an utterance was mumbled under breath about something like "unless people rise up" or other such nonsense. When the disaster DID NOT occur, this would also validate the great importance of their great "ministry in operation" that averted it.
And innies swallowed it, hook line and sinker.
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Ham
Funny how nobody called them on this junk, at least publically (at least that I am aware of). The underlings were left to deal with it- "well, God just showed him what MIGHT have happened if.." Cripe, anybody can guess at what MIGHT happen.
"If you leave, you will end up dying a lone and miserable death, your daughter will become a basket case" never happened to one famous poster here.
For their corn cob outfit to have any chance of success, they somehow have to maintain the appearance that they actually have some kind of power over the followers.
Funny how when they can't avert disaster in a follower's life, it is never the "averter's" fault. It is ALWAYS the follower's sin, unbelief, or other such nonsense. "He died because he worked in such a dark place". Unbelievable!
I don't see how anybody puts up with it anymore. There is zero accountability.
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Kit Sober
Not all are creeps.
Some have held fast to their connection with the Holy Spirit.
There were some wonderful ones then, and by and large from what I have seen, those who went through the fire, with their Holy Spirit connection in tact, are more kind, more tenderhearted, more sub-servient (serving beneath the Lord) than ever.
Kit
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Ham
I certainly agree Kit, but there sure seemed to be quite a few exceptions. I think the really really rotten command more attention than they are worth.
I have met a good share of really good folks, Ralph D. being one of that number.
I have not gone corps, but those that I met went into da service for one of two reasons: 1. Love for God and God's people, just wanting to learn how to serve better
2. Those that saw it as a ticket to power.
Must be kinda like the tares, they both grow till "harvest". I am thankful that some good came out of the experience.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
devil seed
uhmmm
that's quite some thing of thot to deal with since when
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I dig Pat Hughes...
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Eagle
Fellow Greasespotters,
Your words really lifted me so much. I have to share them with my wife. It seems all here would have prayed for our kids if we asked. My wife was so hurt she thought she was considered worthless for even asking for the prayer.
It is true her two (and now mine) adult children strayed from the path, both in trouble with the law, not taking anything seriously, one almost in prison were it not for us (and we believe especially God) intervening. During our prayer one of our sons was involved in a fatal auto accident. My step-son, the metally challenged one, being passive as he is, was sitting in the front seat of the car before leaving when his "best" friend told him he wanted the front and for him to get in the back. My step-sons two friends sat in the front drinking while he fell asleep. He awakened in the hospital and found out that the one that took his place in the front seat was killed instantly, and the other was the driver who had his legs crushed and is not expected to live more than a few years more.
The funny thing is, our mentally challenged one is the one now asking us about God, though he fumbles through life a lot. But he is alive now and has no permanant injuries from that accident. He used to like to hang around with punks but now stays away from them. His life has improved tremendously.
The other has normal intelligence and had recently called about church. That is surprising because he was considered the biggest punk in his county. He had a record of several assaults and so many awful mistakes. He missed prison by a hair. Today he does none of the things he did just a year and a half ago.
I think the clergyman thought that the guys deserved what was coming to them and deserved no prayer. That is my thinking on that. Debbie and I had no where else to go but God. Both had refused our advise for more than five years. Suddenly now, though, they both listen.
All I know is what we have seen in their lives since beginning prayer. We just thought it might be helpful to have an ordained person helping us in prayer.
Greasespotters prayed for me once and I have to say I was delivered. At least I like to think so. It was that colon cancer scare. I had the bleeding and the polyp and the family history of cancer. The biopsy report came back negative. I like to believe a lot of people here helped me in prayer, regardless of whether they "liked" me or not.
Well, God bless everybody!
Eagle
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excathedra
dear eagle, i'm sad for all you and debbie have been through. and i am very very glad to hear about how your sons are doing. i will keep them in my prayers.
i hope you both know it was not up to that person to decide about not praying because of what he thought they had or did not have coming to them.
once in a while i call a church around here (i've never stepped foot in the joint except for a wedding) because they have a prayer request thingy. i tell them what i need them to pray for. they never ask me if i'm in their church or for any details. they just add me to their list. nice people.
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Eagle
Exie,
That sounds like a really nice church. Bless your wonderful heart for your prayers, too. We still continue prayer for both of them. We probably always will.
To be honest, we literally became afraid to ask others to pray for them now, afraid of what they think of them and what they would think of us ever since being ignored for prayer requests. I guess we have to get over it and gain the courage you have to just go to the church and ask.
God Bless your heart so much.
Eagle
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excathedra
or find other people to hang out with
sorry for all you've been through ((((((eagle))))))) that's why you feel so whipped
(no courage on my part needed) my neighbors (a couple in their late 60s) told me about their church's hot line for prayer or whatever you call it. incidentally, they know i do not attend any church and they have never ever gotten on my case.
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Eagle
That is so cool.
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Twinky
Bumping this up. I just found this thread by accident today. Shocking.
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Allan
Reminds me of a girl we were in fellowship with years ago in New Zealand who lost a couple of babies in quick succession ( found out later it was due to genetic defects )....but during all the turmoil us others were told to give the couple some 'space' then nek minute we were all absolutely castigated for no being spiritually mature enough to go and comfort her ! In hindsight it was just the so-called clergyman freaking out over a situation he couldn't handle.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Reading this thread from 10 years ago reminded me of an incident I am aware of...
A few years ago someone I know called one of the splinter group leaders asking for prayer...the splinter group leader asked them if they were officially "prayer partners" in his ministry...which really means...are you sending me money. They said no and the splinter group leader refused to pray for them...it's all part of the "God business" dontchaknow.
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Twinky
Unbelievable!! :confused:/>
The rain falls on good and bad alike - but clearly prayers don't ...
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chockfull
Do people really think that prayers from a splinter group "pay for prayer" head honcho is going to carry more weight with God than people in their own family and friends? I would tend to think God would have to tune out the static to listen to the important people.
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WordWolf
It bore repeating.
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excathedra
wow this is crazy reading this again since 2004 & 2005. also, if i'm not mistaken, i am almost positive eagle was ordained in the way
i am reminded of something i posted here more than once but it bears repeating in light of this subject
when psycho geer was in charge in great britain, he threw a dear friend of mine out (there's so much more to that horrible sick account)
anyway, i called wierewille on the house phone (you know press the extension) at HQ and told on geer and mentioned that "you are always welcome at the way" thing
wierwille replied "how long do i have to suck your corps azzes"
i said well the least you could do is pray for him
i think he said yeah, but definitely hung up on me with a loud THUD ( to get the accurate account of this, i probably would have to look at what i posted years ago ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha )
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Twinky
Strange, but all these reports of clergy refusing to pray for unbelievers/those who no longer fellowship brings (now) to mind that dozy PFAL story of the man who heard VPW was on the train and sought prayer "but I do not believe in your Jesus." And the man was healed. And VPW was granted the freedom of the city.
If the story is even remotely true, it shows VPW or some of the entourage was willing to pray for this unbeliever male - not only that, but that the pray-er expected the prayer to be answered. Which is apparently was.
And yet - that is so not the behaviour of TWI as a whole. Pray for unbelievers? Pah! Pray for those who no longer fellowship with the Way? Double Pah! Forget it!
Did Jesus pray with the Samaritan woman whom he met at the wellside? Doesn't say. Did he pray with the citizens of Samaria, when he'd stayed for a little while? Again, doesn't say. But as he was welcomed to preach and teach, it would be surprising if he didn't pray with some of them. And also teach them how to pray for themselves.
... Spot the difference ... !
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excathedra
i think i was wrong about eagle being ordained in the way. i was thinking of someone else. sorry.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Jim, great post! Â If you had problems, TWI didn't want to know about them. Â It was your problem, you deal with it. Â TWI was not good at dealing with people's problems. That was one of the reasons I left. Â
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Grace Valerie Claire
And Bob called himself a Christian??!! Â
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Grace Valerie Claire
George, good answer!
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