It may just be that that guy is embarassed, or has issues with any situation that would require action on his part. He may feel inadequate or unprepared.
It may just be that that guy is embarassed, or has issues with any situation that would require action on his part. He may feel inadequate or unprepared.
It may just be a crisis of faith.
If I were to just make a snap-judgement on the little we know,
I'd say he was afraid of something.
"Mercy is for the weak." (Instructor villain, Karate Kid.)
The concepts involved with praying for people who need more than 5
seconds of help made the corpse uncomfortable. People were supposed to
be disposable, like pets, to these people, especially the later corpse.
The guy may realize he has no idea what he's doing, since he was never
trained for it, and was selected AGAINST for compassion before trained
to teach people are disposable.
(I'm not talking ALL corpse, but this applies to quite a few.)
Maybe he actually gets uncomfortable when facing people who need real
help. Then again, maybe he really DOES refuse to pray for people
he doesn't like. It's his failing, no matter what.
Very different situation, but similar theme. I saw someone get "reproved", cuss words and all, for praying for a friend who left TWI after the "fall of LCM".
I also know of two different families who were counselled to send their children somewhere else to live by TWI. One sent her daughter to live with a sister and one sent a son to live with an ex-husband. They were both given this "advice" because their children were considered "unbelievers". The boy was around 12 and I think the girl was around 14.
what sounds even colder and really bizarre is he didn't tell you and your wife any response what's with that ?
i don't believe ANYONE is not worth praying for
i'm sure plenty of wayfer heads (innies/outies) think differently
this guy sounds like a loser if he won't even answer a prayer request email and then gets up and walks out when he's just been asked to pray for your children
One thing I did see was a bias against anyone with a problem that couldn't be solved by quoting PFAL or some wayfer book. Alcoholism, for example. We had a person struggling with it but acknowledging they needed help. They were told to go to AA not us and kind of shoved out the door.
This was during the reign of King Loy and his middle class crusades. Eagle was your experience during or after the late 90s?
quote:I need input into the idea that some people are considered 'worthless' to pray for. That is how we took this rejection for prayer for our kids by this clergyman. Any ideas on this?
The only people 'worthless' are the ones that won't help. They are, indeed, worthless for helping you with your issue. As to why, I think we'll never know. It could be that the clergy in question was afraid, was uncomfortable with the situation, or was having a personal faith issue and doubted the benefit of prayer.
This really brings up a bigger issue. How effective was TWI leadership at counseling and providing help and support to those who were less able and less fortunate than the rank-and-file paying followers? I'd say not. From VPW down, the philosophy was to take the class, read the books, read the Word and your problems would go away. This philosopy certainly maximized the cashflow to TWI, but it also neglected the whole concept of Christian charity and left lots of people behind.
Add to that the fact that much of the latter leadership had neither the inclination or the born people skills needed for effective counseling. I realize all you asked for was prayer. Nonetheless, I think it all runs back the the same root. The lack of Christian charity and the inability/nondesire to help people outside of the TWI paradigm.
Could this incident be a (mis)application of the following verse?
I John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
It's a devilish, ungodly and inane attempt to control, manipulate and disparage their followers. No one is beyond prayer. God's the one who choses what to do about the prayer. They are playing God and passing judgement which we aren't supposed to do when they refuse to pray for someone.
I know a couple who wanted to adopt a child through "the system". They wanted an older child, say 4-10 years old. B*b Moneyhands told the couple that they shouldn't adopt an older child because they have been through "the system" and were probably ridden with tons of emotional and behavioral problems, not to mention most likely courting devil spirits.
They wanted to adopt anyway, despite his misgivings about their plans. He told them that if they went ahead with the adoption to never ask him to pray for them and that kid because they were going against his counsel and God wouldn't be able to protect them.
This couple adopted the most wonderful child and they are one of the happiest families I know. Thank God they didn't take the abuse any longer!! Now they are reaping the rewards for following GOD and not BOB!
Leadership should be something people are called to, not something people aspire to.
There were way too many people in the Corps. There were way too many people who aspired to be in the Corps. Thus, when people aspired to be Corps, they tried to imitate other Corps they knew. Other Corps they knew were running around reproving people, so the aspiring ones did also. The other Corps they knew were busy teaching or directing or reproving. These aspiring Corps did not see examples of ministering and counseling. With every new Corps year coming around this situation mushroomed.
Does a failure to find good examples of counseling and ministering make people that wanted to be Corps bad people? Not necessarily. But, it didn't make them good leaders.
Leaders: God told Moses that he would lead the Hebrews out of Egypt, while Moses didn't want to do it. God picked Moses to be a leader. Jeremiah complained a few times about the various bad circumstances he ended up in while doing what God told him to do. I am sure that wasn't what Jeremiah aspired to.
After Judas Iscariot killed himself, the others cast lots to decide his replacement. There was no politicing or campaigning by people to be the replacement.
People generally recognize and decide who is qualified to be a leader by their abilities, commitment, determination, and energy. Jesus did not choose the Apostles Paul simply because of his charming good looks and dynamic personality. Paul was dedicated to the lord's work.
Thus, Corps people not all bad, Corps program all screwed up.
Eagle: I think it's entirely possible that this clergyman WAS having problems in his walk; felt he didn't have the believing or confidence to pray for your kids, but was too ashamed to say so. But you saw his face. If he really thought your KIDS weren't worthy of prayer, then how much did he REALLY think of YOUR worth as a believer? That is VERY screwed up. Seems to me an attitude like that would be pretty hard to disguise.
My thoughts are that Jesus always reached out to the "worthless" and "hopeless." He got persecuted for hanging out with those that nobody else wanted to deal with. He wasn't/isn't afraid to reach and touch whoever asks/needs/wants help.
Any minister who refuses to "go there," is not a minister/follower/servant of Jesus Christ. Pure and simple.
He never offered "pat answers" to problems, just himself. And he is still doing that, I think. :)-->
I believe that God listens to all of our prayers and that the prayers of the "ordained" do not carry any more weight than the people who have the need.
In the Bible it talks about the "fruit of the spirit". It seems to me that the only "fruit" that this twi minister has is sour grapes...
Uncle Hairy, This happened to a believer in this area when she asked Kenny B*nk**y to pray for her son. To this man, her son was not worth praying for.
It always seemed to me that people were placed in positions of authority who were stunningly inept when it came to ministering to and counselling God's people. The very useful phrase "I have no idea" never entered their minds, much less came out of their mouths. How can an individual who has been taught to regard psychology as a devil spirit filled voodoo form determine that his lamb would be better served by seeing a shrink than by being told "renew your mind"?
Unfortunately, some of these souls fit the description of those whom Jesus said would be better off having a millstone tied around their necks and being cast into the sea.
Myself, I don't believe there should be criteria for prayer. If someone asks me to pray, I'll pray. I don't ask them if they are believing. I don't ask if they are Christians, Muslims, Buddists, whatever. There is no application form to fill out to get on my prayer list.
I have a feeling that this "minister" doesn't get many prayers answered, anyway, so it's just as well he didn't pray for your kids! Let US know if they still need prayer!
May God bless you for your work and believing with these children.
I am ashamed that anyone would refuse to pray with you. The clergy in that instance is an idiot. I should hope that you remember this and bring it remembrance in the future each time you face this man. I understand that as believers we should forgive each other, but in wisdom we also need to be wary of those who would hurt us or hurt others.
I have refused to pronounce a blessing at weddings before. During rehearsal I explain to the couple that if they are not of my faith-group, I do not feel comfortable giving my blessing on them and prophecy. I happily perform weddings, and I really enjoy it. So far couples have never complained about it. Though in reflection usually the couples that I have not ‘blessed’ would have been considered ‘un-believers’ by our standards.
Steve!-
“It may just be that that guy is embareassed, or has issues with any situation that would require action on his part. He may feel inadequate or unprepared.”
Give me a break, all he needed to do was lead a prayer, it is not like he is expected to manifest sufficient believing to bring forth a miracle on this account, he was only being asked to lead a prayer. Unprepared? No way.
Abi-
“I also know of two different families who were counselled to send their children somewhere else to live by TWI. One sent her daughter to live with a sister and one sent a son to live with an ex-husband. They were both given this "advice" because their children were considered "unbelievers". The boy was around 12 and I think the girl was around 14.”
Wow.
The complete stupidity of TWI at times. Children are our blessing, even when at times we don’t ‘see’ such anymore. I have often had to ‘convince’ myself to keep trying. I feel in-adequate now having just lost some foster-children [they were taken away yesterday morning], but we only agreed to lose them after Bonnie has had 2 heart attacks in the past 2 months.
Excath-
“i don't believe ANYONE is not worth praying for”
I agree.
The only real thing that I am not sure about as a topic for prayer is ‘peace’.
I don’t think man is capable of it. And I don’t see where the Bible says that such is possible, so why pray for it?
Justthinking-
“One thing I did see was a bias against anyone with a problem that couldn't be solved by quoting PFAL or some wayfer book. Alcoholism, for example. We had a person struggling with it but acknowledging they needed help. They were told to go to AA not us and kind of shoved out the door.”
They were called ‘Leeches’.
Yes I remember. But hey in my fellowships ‘problems’ with alcohol have happened. Perhaps it is different among civilians, I dont know. Such it is not un-common in the Navy.
Generally from what we have seen, focusing on the Bible and doing the Work of God, the other problems do seem to fade. I only have issues when I stop and reflect on things that I have done, men I have known, etc. [sorry but I need to change the subject]
Belle-
“I know a couple who wanted to adopt a child through "the system". They wanted an older child, say 4-10 years old. B*b Moneyhands told the couple that they shouldn't adopt an older child because they have been through "the system" and were probably ridden with tons of emotional and behavioral problems, not to mention most likely courting devil spirits.
They wanted to adopt anyway, despite his misgivings about their plans. He told them that if they went ahead with the adoption to never ask him to pray for them and that kid because they were going against his counsel and God wouldn't be able to protect them.
This couple adopted the most wonderful child and they are one of the happiest families I know. Thank God they didn't take the abuse any longer!! Now they are reaping the rewards for following GOD and not BOB!”
Wow, your friends are great.
Are your still in contact with them? If you can offer them an evening of respite [they would likely love the offer].
We just had some that were 8, 10, and 12; a hand full but worth it.
B*b may have been correct in the context that those foster-children “were probably ridden with tons of emotional and behavioral problems”; but to say anything more was limiting his believing for what the adults could do. How dare he [bob] put limits on what a wonderful loving couple can do.
Dave-
“Leadership should be something people are called to, not something people aspire to.”
I agree.
“There were way too many people in the Corps.”
Because they were recruited. They were advised “the best path for you is to go Corpse”. Annual Limb Meetings were ‘Recruitment days’.
People were told to go corpse. I was told go to corpse. I was told that by not going Corpse, I was denying God.
“People generally recognize and decide who is qualified to be a leader by their abilities, commitment, determination, and energy. Jesus did not choose the Apostles Paul simply because of his charming good looks and dynamic personality. Paul was dedicated to the lord's work.”
I agree.
Zshot-
“I believe that God listens to all of our prayers and that the prayers of the "ordained" do not carry any more weight than the people who have the need.”
But we are all ordained of God. All who believe that is.
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excathedra
what sounds even colder and really bizarre is he didn't tell you and your wife any response what's with that ? i don't believe ANYONE is not worth praying for i'm sure plenty of wayfer heads (innies
Jim
The only people 'worthless' are the ones that won't help. They are, indeed, worthless for helping you with your issue. As to why, I think we'll never know. It could be that the clergy in question w
GeorgeStGeorge
The only time the Bible tells you not to pray for someone is if he's committed the "sin unto death." The "clergyman" in question is a schmuck. George
Steve!
It may just be that that guy is embarassed, or has issues with any situation that would require action on his part. He may feel inadequate or unprepared.
It may just be a crisis of faith.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Eagle...To tell you the truth, I have never heard of a twi clergy refusing to pray for someone when asked...this sounds pretty cold to me.
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WordWolf
If I were to just make a snap-judgement on the little we know,
I'd say he was afraid of something.
"Mercy is for the weak." (Instructor villain, Karate Kid.)
The concepts involved with praying for people who need more than 5
seconds of help made the corpse uncomfortable. People were supposed to
be disposable, like pets, to these people, especially the later corpse.
The guy may realize he has no idea what he's doing, since he was never
trained for it, and was selected AGAINST for compassion before trained
to teach people are disposable.
(I'm not talking ALL corpse, but this applies to quite a few.)
Maybe he actually gets uncomfortable when facing people who need real
help. Then again, maybe he really DOES refuse to pray for people
he doesn't like. It's his failing, no matter what.
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Abigail
Very different situation, but similar theme. I saw someone get "reproved", cuss words and all, for praying for a friend who left TWI after the "fall of LCM".
I also know of two different families who were counselled to send their children somewhere else to live by TWI. One sent her daughter to live with a sister and one sent a son to live with an ex-husband. They were both given this "advice" because their children were considered "unbelievers". The boy was around 12 and I think the girl was around 14.
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excathedra
what sounds even colder and really bizarre is he didn't tell you and your wife any response what's with that ?
i don't believe ANYONE is not worth praying for
i'm sure plenty of wayfer heads (innies/outies) think differently
this guy sounds like a loser if he won't even answer a prayer request email and then gets up and walks out when he's just been asked to pray for your children
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JustThinking
One thing I did see was a bias against anyone with a problem that couldn't be solved by quoting PFAL or some wayfer book. Alcoholism, for example. We had a person struggling with it but acknowledging they needed help. They were told to go to AA not us and kind of shoved out the door.
This was during the reign of King Loy and his middle class crusades. Eagle was your experience during or after the late 90s?
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Jim
The only people 'worthless' are the ones that won't help. They are, indeed, worthless for helping you with your issue. As to why, I think we'll never know. It could be that the clergy in question was afraid, was uncomfortable with the situation, or was having a personal faith issue and doubted the benefit of prayer.
This really brings up a bigger issue. How effective was TWI leadership at counseling and providing help and support to those who were less able and less fortunate than the rank-and-file paying followers? I'd say not. From VPW down, the philosophy was to take the class, read the books, read the Word and your problems would go away. This philosopy certainly maximized the cashflow to TWI, but it also neglected the whole concept of Christian charity and left lots of people behind.
Add to that the fact that much of the latter leadership had neither the inclination or the born people skills needed for effective counseling. I realize all you asked for was prayer. Nonetheless, I think it all runs back the the same root. The lack of Christian charity and the inability/nondesire to help people outside of the TWI paradigm.
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excathedra
i still think he's either rude or stupid for not answering you guys and for just walking out of the room
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Mike
Could this incident be a (mis)application of the following verse?
I John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
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Belle
It's a devilish, ungodly and inane attempt to control, manipulate and disparage their followers. No one is beyond prayer. God's the one who choses what to do about the prayer. They are playing God and passing judgement which we aren't supposed to do when they refuse to pray for someone.
I know a couple who wanted to adopt a child through "the system". They wanted an older child, say 4-10 years old. B*b Moneyhands told the couple that they shouldn't adopt an older child because they have been through "the system" and were probably ridden with tons of emotional and behavioral problems, not to mention most likely courting devil spirits.
They wanted to adopt anyway, despite his misgivings about their plans. He told them that if they went ahead with the adoption to never ask him to pray for them and that kid because they were going against his counsel and God wouldn't be able to protect them.
This couple adopted the most wonderful child and they are one of the happiest families I know. Thank God they didn't take the abuse any longer!! Now they are reaping the rewards for following GOD and not BOB!
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excathedra
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Biblefan Dave
Leadership should be something people are called to, not something people aspire to.
There were way too many people in the Corps. There were way too many people who aspired to be in the Corps. Thus, when people aspired to be Corps, they tried to imitate other Corps they knew. Other Corps they knew were running around reproving people, so the aspiring ones did also. The other Corps they knew were busy teaching or directing or reproving. These aspiring Corps did not see examples of ministering and counseling. With every new Corps year coming around this situation mushroomed.
Does a failure to find good examples of counseling and ministering make people that wanted to be Corps bad people? Not necessarily. But, it didn't make them good leaders.
Leaders: God told Moses that he would lead the Hebrews out of Egypt, while Moses didn't want to do it. God picked Moses to be a leader. Jeremiah complained a few times about the various bad circumstances he ended up in while doing what God told him to do. I am sure that wasn't what Jeremiah aspired to.
After Judas Iscariot killed himself, the others cast lots to decide his replacement. There was no politicing or campaigning by people to be the replacement.
People generally recognize and decide who is qualified to be a leader by their abilities, commitment, determination, and energy. Jesus did not choose the Apostles Paul simply because of his charming good looks and dynamic personality. Paul was dedicated to the lord's work.
Thus, Corps people not all bad, Corps program all screwed up.
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GeorgeStGeorge
The only time the Bible tells you not to pray for someone is if he's committed the "sin unto death."
The "clergyman" in question is a schmuck.
George
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TheEvan
I knew a corpse guy who said he wanted to be a prophet because it would give him a license to be an a-hole.
Yeah, he got ordained....
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johniam
Eagle: I think it's entirely possible that this clergyman WAS having problems in his walk; felt he didn't have the believing or confidence to pray for your kids, but was too ashamed to say so. But you saw his face. If he really thought your KIDS weren't worthy of prayer, then how much did he REALLY think of YOUR worth as a believer? That is VERY screwed up. Seems to me an attitude like that would be pretty hard to disguise.
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ex10
My thoughts are that Jesus always reached out to the "worthless" and "hopeless." He got persecuted for hanging out with those that nobody else wanted to deal with. He wasn't/isn't afraid to reach and touch whoever asks/needs/wants help.
Any minister who refuses to "go there," is not a minister/follower/servant of Jesus Christ. Pure and simple.
He never offered "pat answers" to problems, just himself. And he is still doing that, I think.
:)-->
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dmiller
To which I agree -- amen.
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Zshot
I believe that God listens to all of our prayers and that the prayers of the "ordained" do not carry any more weight than the people who have the need.
In the Bible it talks about the "fruit of the spirit". It seems to me that the only "fruit" that this twi minister has is sour grapes...
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sadie
Uncle Hairy, This happened to a believer in this area when she asked Kenny B*nk**y to pray for her son. To this man, her son was not worth praying for.
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Belle
LOL!!! Very well said, Zshot!
:D--> 
:D-->
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Watered Garden
It always seemed to me that people were placed in positions of authority who were stunningly inept when it came to ministering to and counselling God's people. The very useful phrase "I have no idea" never entered their minds, much less came out of their mouths. How can an individual who has been taught to regard psychology as a devil spirit filled voodoo form determine that his lamb would be better served by seeing a shrink than by being told "renew your mind"?
Unfortunately, some of these souls fit the description of those whom Jesus said would be better off having a millstone tied around their necks and being cast into the sea.
Myself, I don't believe there should be criteria for prayer. If someone asks me to pray, I'll pray. I don't ask them if they are believing. I don't ask if they are Christians, Muslims, Buddists, whatever. There is no application form to fill out to get on my prayer list.
But then, I am just a humble peon.
WG
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GeorgeStGeorge
I have a feeling that this "minister" doesn't get many prayers answered, anyway, so it's just as well he didn't pray for your kids! Let US know if they still need prayer!
George
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Galen
Eagle-
May God bless you for your work and believing with these children.
I am ashamed that anyone would refuse to pray with you. The clergy in that instance is an idiot. I should hope that you remember this and bring it remembrance in the future each time you face this man. I understand that as believers we should forgive each other, but in wisdom we also need to be wary of those who would hurt us or hurt others.
I have refused to pronounce a blessing at weddings before. During rehearsal I explain to the couple that if they are not of my faith-group, I do not feel comfortable giving my blessing on them and prophecy. I happily perform weddings, and I really enjoy it. So far couples have never complained about it. Though in reflection usually the couples that I have not ‘blessed’ would have been considered ‘un-believers’ by our standards.
Steve!-
“It may just be that that guy is embareassed, or has issues with any situation that would require action on his part. He may feel inadequate or unprepared.”
Give me a break, all he needed to do was lead a prayer, it is not like he is expected to manifest sufficient believing to bring forth a miracle on this account, he was only being asked to lead a prayer. Unprepared? No way.
Abi-
“I also know of two different families who were counselled to send their children somewhere else to live by TWI. One sent her daughter to live with a sister and one sent a son to live with an ex-husband. They were both given this "advice" because their children were considered "unbelievers". The boy was around 12 and I think the girl was around 14.”
Wow.
The complete stupidity of TWI at times. Children are our blessing, even when at times we don’t ‘see’ such anymore. I have often had to ‘convince’ myself to keep trying. I feel in-adequate now having just lost some foster-children [they were taken away yesterday morning], but we only agreed to lose them after Bonnie has had 2 heart attacks in the past 2 months.
Excath-
“i don't believe ANYONE is not worth praying for”
I agree.
The only real thing that I am not sure about as a topic for prayer is ‘peace’.
I don’t think man is capable of it. And I don’t see where the Bible says that such is possible, so why pray for it?
Justthinking-
“One thing I did see was a bias against anyone with a problem that couldn't be solved by quoting PFAL or some wayfer book. Alcoholism, for example. We had a person struggling with it but acknowledging they needed help. They were told to go to AA not us and kind of shoved out the door.”
They were called ‘Leeches’.
Yes I remember. But hey in my fellowships ‘problems’ with alcohol have happened. Perhaps it is different among civilians, I dont know. Such it is not un-common in the Navy.
Generally from what we have seen, focusing on the Bible and doing the Work of God, the other problems do seem to fade. I only have issues when I stop and reflect on things that I have done, men I have known, etc. [sorry but I need to change the subject]
Belle-
“I know a couple who wanted to adopt a child through "the system". They wanted an older child, say 4-10 years old. B*b Moneyhands told the couple that they shouldn't adopt an older child because they have been through "the system" and were probably ridden with tons of emotional and behavioral problems, not to mention most likely courting devil spirits.
They wanted to adopt anyway, despite his misgivings about their plans. He told them that if they went ahead with the adoption to never ask him to pray for them and that kid because they were going against his counsel and God wouldn't be able to protect them.
This couple adopted the most wonderful child and they are one of the happiest families I know. Thank God they didn't take the abuse any longer!! Now they are reaping the rewards for following GOD and not BOB!”
Wow, your friends are great.
Are your still in contact with them? If you can offer them an evening of respite [they would likely love the offer].
We just had some that were 8, 10, and 12; a hand full but worth it.
B*b may have been correct in the context that those foster-children “were probably ridden with tons of emotional and behavioral problems”; but to say anything more was limiting his believing for what the adults could do. How dare he [bob] put limits on what a wonderful loving couple can do.
Dave-
“Leadership should be something people are called to, not something people aspire to.”
I agree.
“There were way too many people in the Corps.”
Because they were recruited. They were advised “the best path for you is to go Corpse”. Annual Limb Meetings were ‘Recruitment days’.
People were told to go corpse. I was told go to corpse. I was told that by not going Corpse, I was denying God.
“People generally recognize and decide who is qualified to be a leader by their abilities, commitment, determination, and energy. Jesus did not choose the Apostles Paul simply because of his charming good looks and dynamic personality. Paul was dedicated to the lord's work.”
I agree.
Zshot-
“I believe that God listens to all of our prayers and that the prayers of the "ordained" do not carry any more weight than the people who have the need.”
But we are all ordained of God. All who believe that is.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
UH~~~ Is there something about delivering one to Satan type of thing?
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