well, it used to be, in the olden days, it was possible to have a nice twig.
It's kinda like Galen and others talk about, it was totally possible to be a normal human, and maybe even go to church, (egads! what a notion,) while still having twig.
I remember the old days...but for me which probably isn't true in most cases, I found the more I got involved in programs like wow and corpes that is when it got more controlling.
If I had stayed just in a fellowship I think it would have been a whole different experience.
You and I know not everyone in TWI was pathological
I'm not so sure about that. Pathology is a continuum - not a yes or no thing. I don't think any really healthy person would be attracted to what attracted us, or would ignore the violations of personal boundaries and integrity like way followers did.
quote:Originally posted by parsley:
So, how do cults creates this social reality that is so … captivating?
There has been lots of research on this. I suggest making that part of your background on your thesis.
OK then, what do YOU think is the psychological profile for someone susceptible to cultic rhetoric?
Also, do you think it has anything to do with the public appeal of the speakers? Do you think their delivery of the message was appealing? Or would you say the teachings were trite, psuedo-scientific, jingoistic, confusing or just boring?
I've thought about this alot in the last years since getting outa there.
For me, it was easy to fall into their manner of speaking, behavior, etc.
I was raised in a family that was very much into social settings. My father was in the banking business and my mother was friend of the court.
We were exposed to big wigs in many settings, locally and state wide. My parents friends and co-workers were bank presidents, judges, attorneys.
I learned early on how to behave myself at a fancy event, what was acceptable at an informal event, etc. We were taught public speaking skills at home and had occasion to use the skills often.
We were expected to use our best manners everywhere and represent the family name in a favorable light.
Then I attended a finishing school where the social graces were futher taught, and much practice about how to greet and mingle with dignitaries, people with money and/or a name (gag), how to not offend, etc.
Both of these taught me about who is who and where my place was in the pecking order of whatever world I was in and how to act accordingly.
TWI was comfortable for me in the understanding the teaching, mannerisms of speakers and feeling comfortable talking to them. LCM, Wierwille, none of them intimidated me at all. I think that is why I saw pretty quickly what was going on. I was used to the smooth talkers and their tactics.
I found it pretty easy to play the game with them, say what they expected, wanted. My behavior met whatever was necessary, as was my speech and posture, all that type of thing. I was well trained.
It was just like when I was growing up, to me.
Smooze with the powers that be, tell them what you have to, do what you have to. When there is a safe exit, use it as graciously as possible.
What got me in. Well how about excitment during worship, or the friendly people, or that kiss from a beautiful woman, or how about thinking that I knew more than my old preacher.
What got me out. Being told whom I should date, the 20 questions if I missed fellowship, Felling like I was being controled, the word per twi not fitting like a hand in a glove.
What you said in your post sounds more to me like how you survived it. And, gracious exit or not, thank goodness you found the door out. But, what I'm wondering is what compelled us to stay under the circumstances we found ourselves in after the honeymoon days ended?
Some have said they stayed out of fear, which I totally understand. I'm sure also, there was a comfort level in being accustomed to the TWI reality – maybe we didn't want to have to start over in a new social reality outside of the Way Int'l. As I’ve read in other people’s threads, and as I have experienced myself, the loss of the society we were in was like a death of sorts, and involved a grieving period which was painful.
But, there were people in twi that, as My 3 cents said, “ignored the violations of personal boundaries and integrity” to a staggering degree. How did TWI create the environment (physical, mental, emotional) that allowed people like you and me to succumb to those violations?
I remember thinking toward the end of my stay - surely God has a plan, ‘cause this sucks! What are the people who are still in thinking? How bad can it get before they look for a way out? Do you think that twi could go the way of Jim Jones or David Koresh or Heaven’s Gate groups? (shudder)
OK then, what do YOU think is the psychological profile for someone susceptible to cultic rhetoric?
I'm not qualified to answer in any kind of general sense. It would be like asking my what I think is the major cause of air pollution, or divorce or any number of things that need to be studied based on scientific methods.
One of the problems in the way was that the leaders thought their personal experience could be extrapolated to everyone with out bothering to apply any actual research.
Well, to throw a total wrench into the conversation here....
I think that there were people who really just wanted to experience God in a more personal way, i.e. via bible study, prayer, connecting with other humans on a personal level outside of the "church" setting.
In the 70's, before "home fellowships" were a widespread idea among churches, there was a certain appeal on a personal level, as well as a spiritual one. I think some Christians wanted a deeper, more personal faith, that the small group setting afforded. Ya gotta remember that it was a novel idea in the 70's.
The way offered small groups with bible study and prayer. Now it's commonplace, but it wasn't then.
Maybe that's all there is to it? Perhaps it didn't take a certain psycological pathology to be involved with TWI, just a hunger for faith to be on a more personal level.
My parents didn't experience all the contolling crud that we as way corps, wows, etc. did. When it got way too intense, then we bailed. Everybody has their limits, I guess. And when it became clear the organization as a whole was a total mess, then people left.
Perhaps I am the exception that proves your rule. I DID have one foot in the "real" world the whole time. I had non-TWI projects and friends. Later I had children to raise. When I got as close as the Corps, I saw corruption at the top. And though I mourned that TWI was not acting like they had "the Word like it had not been taught since the first century," I had no big trouble walking away.
But I think I understood what the cult mentality was. I saw many people who took the whole thing way beyond common sense. They were committed "dog soldiers," as Wierwille urged them to be. When the Waco siege happened, and the government started moving tanks in and tear-gassing the place, I yelled at my radio, "Don't do it! Stop!" because I knew, I KNEW, that the Branch Davidians would take it as a sign that Armageddon had arrived, just like their prophet had predicted.
I think we were sucked in by a two-fold approach. First was the convincing stage. You want love? We have love to share. You want power? We offer to teach you the Law of Believing, and tithing. You long to know about the hereafter? We are tighter with God than anyone else, and we'll teach you to speak in tongues, so you can tap into spiritual power.
Step #2 was to unsettle the believer, keep the fulfilling of his needs just out of reach. Need more? Go WOW, go Corps, take the Advanced Class, clean the devilish influences out of your house, clean your limb leader's house, kiss his a**. Prove your commitment so that God WILL spit in your direction. Listen to your leadership, because they have a special knowledge of God that you don't.
With all due respect to what you wrote shaz, I look at the whole scenario on a much more general level.
Having been raised Catholic, and coming from a fairly religious upbringing, the whole idea that people could sit in a living room, read the bible for themselves, and then actually apply it to daily life, was a novel idea.
At least to my Catholic family. Maybe the appeal was that "God and religion" could actually relate to our everyday lives. And we didn't need a priest or a nun in the family to make us "spiriutal."
Just a thought.
I guess I should add that VP and company smooozed our family, so that it took me (and select family members) a little longer to figure out that all was not what it appeared to be in Oz. Done on purpose? You bet your sweet behind.....
On another note, parsley, I know I'm probably not on track with what you are studying, but I've always been interested in in studying how the way fit into the larger, cultural, religious scene during its heydey. I don't think TWI was a phenomenon removed from its cultural/religious/social context.
I've always thought it would be interesting to study TWI in regards to the Jesus Movement as well as the Charismatic movement that made inroads into middle religious (mainly Catholic) America.
The point of view, that only people who had some kind of personal, psychological/emotional need got involved has never satisfied me. I think it was a bit bigger than that.
On another note, parsley, I know I'm probably not on track with what you are studying, but I've always been interested in in studying how the way fit into the larger, cultural, religious scene during its heydey. I don't think TWI was a phenomenon removed from its cultural/religious/social context.
I've always thought it would be interesting to study TWI in regards to the Jesus Movement as well as the Charismatic movement that made inroads into middle religious (mainly Catholic) America.
The point of view, that only people who had some kind of personal, psychological/emotional need got involved has never satisfied me. I think it was a bit bigger than that.
Interesting point of view. I do think the culture had a lot to do with it - at least in the 70's. I came out of the hippie anti-establisment thing and the anit-religion stance of the way fit right into that. I don't know about culture in the 80s since I was so involved in the way.
Also at that time - at least early 70's - it was culturally cool for young people to be poor, to live together in cheap housing, to hitch hike and to move around a lot. The way corps and especially the wow program expoited this quite heavily.
But as cultural norms changed the way did not. Very few in their late teens, early twenties thinks it's cool now to hitch hike, to be itinerant, to live in a crash pad. Poverty and being grubby are no longer as appealing.
Plus they never were appealing to older folks so as the way people aged, there was no way for them to live in nice houses, make some money etc and still be in the good graces of the way.
So I agree that the cultural piece was important in the rise and also fall of the numbers.
Also you have various levels of involvement in the way (at least in the 70's that was permitted) and also during that time the way got more and more controling. I'll amend my opinion about psychological needs being the only reason for involvement, but I do believe that there's a correlation between those with deeper problem and a deeper level of involvement - especially as the way got more and more controling and more out of step with cultural norms.
What if, just supposing if, middle class American families in the church world, were looking for a deeper connection with God, midst all the confusion and materialism of the 60's and 70's? Where would they go?
If one happened to be approaching 40, believe in women's rights, civil rights, and not believe in war or American Imperialism, and was disillusioned with the traditional "church", where would one go for answers? Might not TWI have fit the niche to a degree?
Traditional in some ways, yet very radical and altruistic in others? Just pondering...
But as cultural norms changed the way did not. Very few in their late teens, early twenties thinks it's cool now to hitch hike, to be itinerant, to live in a crash pad. Poverty and being grubby are no longer as appealing.
Plus they never were appealing to older folks so as the way people aged, there was no way for them to live in nice houses, make some money etc and still be in the good graces of the way.
Some good points made by ex10 & my3cents. Thanks.
Also, I think there is something to be said about the offspring who see a new world of information and communication. It's tight to have a cell phone as a 14 year-old. It's fun to be online, and on the technological curve, with friends.
As you noted, the world has changed dramatically in the past 15 years and twi is still dragging the chains of religious (cult) conformity.
Individualism is IN.....groupthink is OUT.
All one has to do is look at life through the eyes of a teenager! Man, twi is dead in spiritual perception and any awareness.
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vickles
And then my brain waves may be working wrong. I might have totally misunderstood what your saying.
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ex10
well, it used to be, in the olden days, it was possible to have a nice twig.
It's kinda like Galen and others talk about, it was totally possible to be a normal human, and maybe even go to church, (egads! what a notion,) while still having twig.
Ask sudo, he knows.
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vickles
I remember the old days...but for me which probably isn't true in most cases, I found the more I got involved in programs like wow and corpes that is when it got more controlling.
If I had stayed just in a fellowship I think it would have been a whole different experience.
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ex10
yeah vickles
If your mom and dad and brothers, and aunts and uncles and cousins were in your twig, it took on a whole different flavour.
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My3Cents
I'm not so sure about that. Pathology is a continuum - not a yes or no thing. I don't think any really healthy person would be attracted to what attracted us, or would ignore the violations of personal boundaries and integrity like way followers did.
There has been lots of research on this. I suggest making that part of your background on your thesis.
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parsley
OK then, what do YOU think is the psychological profile for someone susceptible to cultic rhetoric?
Also, do you think it has anything to do with the public appeal of the speakers? Do you think their delivery of the message was appealing? Or would you say the teachings were trite, psuedo-scientific, jingoistic, confusing or just boring?
I really appreciate your input. Thanks!
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Shellon
If I'm understanding this correctly.....
I've thought about this alot in the last years since getting outa there.
For me, it was easy to fall into their manner of speaking, behavior, etc.
I was raised in a family that was very much into social settings. My father was in the banking business and my mother was friend of the court.
We were exposed to big wigs in many settings, locally and state wide. My parents friends and co-workers were bank presidents, judges, attorneys.
I learned early on how to behave myself at a fancy event, what was acceptable at an informal event, etc. We were taught public speaking skills at home and had occasion to use the skills often.
We were expected to use our best manners everywhere and represent the family name in a favorable light.
Then I attended a finishing school where the social graces were futher taught, and much practice about how to greet and mingle with dignitaries, people with money and/or a name (gag), how to not offend, etc.
Both of these taught me about who is who and where my place was in the pecking order of whatever world I was in and how to act accordingly.
TWI was comfortable for me in the understanding the teaching, mannerisms of speakers and feeling comfortable talking to them. LCM, Wierwille, none of them intimidated me at all. I think that is why I saw pretty quickly what was going on. I was used to the smooth talkers and their tactics.
I found it pretty easy to play the game with them, say what they expected, wanted. My behavior met whatever was necessary, as was my speech and posture, all that type of thing. I was well trained.
It was just like when I was growing up, to me.
Smooze with the powers that be, tell them what you have to, do what you have to. When there is a safe exit, use it as graciously as possible.
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ex70sHouston
What got me in. Well how about excitment during worship, or the friendly people, or that kiss from a beautiful woman, or how about thinking that I knew more than my old preacher.
What got me out. Being told whom I should date, the 20 questions if I missed fellowship, Felling like I was being controled, the word per twi not fitting like a hand in a glove.
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parsley
Hi Shellon! Thanks for jumping in!
What you said in your post sounds more to me like how you survived it. And, gracious exit or not, thank goodness you found the door out. But, what I'm wondering is what compelled us to stay under the circumstances we found ourselves in after the honeymoon days ended?
Some have said they stayed out of fear, which I totally understand. I'm sure also, there was a comfort level in being accustomed to the TWI reality – maybe we didn't want to have to start over in a new social reality outside of the Way Int'l. As I’ve read in other people’s threads, and as I have experienced myself, the loss of the society we were in was like a death of sorts, and involved a grieving period which was painful.
But, there were people in twi that, as My 3 cents said, “ignored the violations of personal boundaries and integrity” to a staggering degree. How did TWI create the environment (physical, mental, emotional) that allowed people like you and me to succumb to those violations?
I remember thinking toward the end of my stay - surely God has a plan, ‘cause this sucks! What are the people who are still in thinking? How bad can it get before they look for a way out? Do you think that twi could go the way of Jim Jones or David Koresh or Heaven’s Gate groups? (shudder)
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My3Cents
I'm not qualified to answer in any kind of general sense. It would be like asking my what I think is the major cause of air pollution, or divorce or any number of things that need to be studied based on scientific methods.
One of the problems in the way was that the leaders thought their personal experience could be extrapolated to everyone with out bothering to apply any actual research.
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ex10
Well, to throw a total wrench into the conversation here....
I think that there were people who really just wanted to experience God in a more personal way, i.e. via bible study, prayer, connecting with other humans on a personal level outside of the "church" setting.
In the 70's, before "home fellowships" were a widespread idea among churches, there was a certain appeal on a personal level, as well as a spiritual one. I think some Christians wanted a deeper, more personal faith, that the small group setting afforded. Ya gotta remember that it was a novel idea in the 70's.
The way offered small groups with bible study and prayer. Now it's commonplace, but it wasn't then.
Maybe that's all there is to it? Perhaps it didn't take a certain psycological pathology to be involved with TWI, just a hunger for faith to be on a more personal level.
My parents didn't experience all the contolling crud that we as way corps, wows, etc. did. When it got way too intense, then we bailed. Everybody has their limits, I guess. And when it became clear the organization as a whole was a total mess, then people left.
Am I being way too naive?
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shazdancer
Dear parsely,
Perhaps I am the exception that proves your rule. I DID have one foot in the "real" world the whole time. I had non-TWI projects and friends. Later I had children to raise. When I got as close as the Corps, I saw corruption at the top. And though I mourned that TWI was not acting like they had "the Word like it had not been taught since the first century," I had no big trouble walking away.
But I think I understood what the cult mentality was. I saw many people who took the whole thing way beyond common sense. They were committed "dog soldiers," as Wierwille urged them to be. When the Waco siege happened, and the government started moving tanks in and tear-gassing the place, I yelled at my radio, "Don't do it! Stop!" because I knew, I KNEW, that the Branch Davidians would take it as a sign that Armageddon had arrived, just like their prophet had predicted.
I think we were sucked in by a two-fold approach. First was the convincing stage. You want love? We have love to share. You want power? We offer to teach you the Law of Believing, and tithing. You long to know about the hereafter? We are tighter with God than anyone else, and we'll teach you to speak in tongues, so you can tap into spiritual power.
Step #2 was to unsettle the believer, keep the fulfilling of his needs just out of reach. Need more? Go WOW, go Corps, take the Advanced Class, clean the devilish influences out of your house, clean your limb leader's house, kiss his a**. Prove your commitment so that God WILL spit in your direction. Listen to your leadership, because they have a special knowledge of God that you don't.
Regards,
Shaz
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ex10
With all due respect to what you wrote shaz, I look at the whole scenario on a much more general level.
Having been raised Catholic, and coming from a fairly religious upbringing, the whole idea that people could sit in a living room, read the bible for themselves, and then actually apply it to daily life, was a novel idea.
At least to my Catholic family. Maybe the appeal was that "God and religion" could actually relate to our everyday lives. And we didn't need a priest or a nun in the family to make us "spiriutal."
Just a thought.
I guess I should add that VP and company smooozed our family, so that it took me (and select family members) a little longer to figure out that all was not what it appeared to be in Oz. Done on purpose? You bet your sweet behind.....
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ex10
On another note, parsley, I know I'm probably not on track with what you are studying, but I've always been interested in in studying how the way fit into the larger, cultural, religious scene during its heydey. I don't think TWI was a phenomenon removed from its cultural/religious/social context.
I've always thought it would be interesting to study TWI in regards to the Jesus Movement as well as the Charismatic movement that made inroads into middle religious (mainly Catholic) America.
The point of view, that only people who had some kind of personal, psychological/emotional need got involved has never satisfied me. I think it was a bit bigger than that.
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parsley
I think so too.
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My3Cents
Interesting point of view. I do think the culture had a lot to do with it - at least in the 70's. I came out of the hippie anti-establisment thing and the anit-religion stance of the way fit right into that. I don't know about culture in the 80s since I was so involved in the way.
Also at that time - at least early 70's - it was culturally cool for young people to be poor, to live together in cheap housing, to hitch hike and to move around a lot. The way corps and especially the wow program expoited this quite heavily.
But as cultural norms changed the way did not. Very few in their late teens, early twenties thinks it's cool now to hitch hike, to be itinerant, to live in a crash pad. Poverty and being grubby are no longer as appealing.
Plus they never were appealing to older folks so as the way people aged, there was no way for them to live in nice houses, make some money etc and still be in the good graces of the way.
So I agree that the cultural piece was important in the rise and also fall of the numbers.
Also you have various levels of involvement in the way (at least in the 70's that was permitted) and also during that time the way got more and more controling. I'll amend my opinion about psychological needs being the only reason for involvement, but I do believe that there's a correlation between those with deeper problem and a deeper level of involvement - especially as the way got more and more controling and more out of step with cultural norms.
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parsley
I think being a "seeker" has a lot to do with it.
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ex10
bingo, Parsley. I'm thinking 70's mindset here...
What if, just supposing if, middle class American families in the church world, were looking for a deeper connection with God, midst all the confusion and materialism of the 60's and 70's? Where would they go?
If one happened to be approaching 40, believe in women's rights, civil rights, and not believe in war or American Imperialism, and was disillusioned with the traditional "church", where would one go for answers? Might not TWI have fit the niche to a degree?
Traditional in some ways, yet very radical and altruistic in others? Just pondering...
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ljn698
what attracted me?
pretty girls
what kept me
same thing
i don't think any of that information is ever going to help you get a doctorate though!!!
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ljn698
or even a master's degree
oh well
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skyrider
Some good points made by ex10 & my3cents. Thanks.
Also, I think there is something to be said about the offspring who see a new world of information and communication. It's tight to have a cell phone as a 14 year-old. It's fun to be online, and on the technological curve, with friends.
As you noted, the world has changed dramatically in the past 15 years and twi is still dragging the chains of religious (cult) conformity.
Individualism is IN.....groupthink is OUT.
All one has to do is look at life through the eyes of a teenager! Man, twi is dead in spiritual perception and any awareness.
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