When I mentioned the fact that I was seriously asking these questions I did not mean that no one had answered them. I was talking specifically to George Aar, who asked if I was really looking for advice. I was informing them that yes I really was looking for opinions on this. They also said something about how they can't imagine anyone enjoying going to fellowship and were suspicious of me because of that. Much of what I said was simply in response to that, not to everyone in general. Sorry, I was not trying to offend the rest of you, and I do thank you for your responses and will take them into consideration.
haha so it does...I hadn't noticed that...thank you for pointing that out lol well again sorry to anyone i offended...it wasn't intential...and I really do appreciate getting some feedback because nobody has really heard of TWI so nobody outside of here has been able to give me any real help.
You will certainly find some nice people in The Way. You will probably hear some nice teachings on the Bible, as well. You may even find a home fellowship situation where you can attend as you please and not be pressured.
Our beef is not with some nice people who have opened their homes to people to come and hear how God loves them. Our difficulty is with the organization, and much of its leadership. The organization was founded by a man who claimed that God told him He would teach him the Word if he would teach it to others, then he plagiarized the works of others and sold them as his original work. When his teachings caught on with young people in the 70's, he took sexual advantage of many. Although he preached the Word of God, his ego and nastiness behind the scenes were legendary. He raised up leadership that would equal, and sometimes surpass, his level of cruelty. They are quite controlling of any believers who become more deeply involved in their advanced training programs, such as Way Disciples, Way Corps, or the Advanced Class.
Funny, but we thought that an organization founded on the Bible would operate with love and respect. It didn't turn out that way.
We hope that, if you decide to visit, you will see the red flags that indicate this is not a healthy organization. Many of us missed those signs and suffered for it.
STOP READING MY MIND AND POSTING IT HERE AT GREASESPOT!!!!!!!!
Seriously, JM, I spent almost 30 years in twi. I got involved my freshman year in high school....1971-72 and left on December 1, 1999.
It isn't as it appears, it isn't innocent, or harmless or empowering. I am not even convinced that it is Christian. I don't know when I think it became a cult....but I do know that NOW it is a cult. A harmful, dangerous, life sucking, cult.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, take up one of the many offers on this thread to speak privately with some of the posters, look in my profile and contact me. JUST DON'T sink your heart and soul into twi, friend or no friend......your life is the only one you have. Don't spend even a second of it, committed to a false ministry.
Look at a thread called "The Political Dance of TWI" some of those Q&A are satirical but if you ask some of those questions of a twi follower, you'll be surprised which ones are not.
The main thing is stay true to what you know in your gut is right. The problem is that there is a lot of emotion (or at least was when I got involved) and even sexual energy that makes it hard to separate what you want to be right from what you know is.
that's really so, my3cents, about the emotions. i was thinking about my first couple of years in, even, and how there was a voice in the back of my head (mr fletcher) telling me it was screwed, but i kept renewing my mind
JM, if you do decide to keep going to the fellowships, I'd love to hear what they're teaching, and your thoughts and experiences. It seems some folks who post here see only continuous evil in everything about TWI. But some of us don't. So feel free to share, if you like. If you can't stomach the responses, you can always go private with one of us if you want.
Maybe *some people* see and believe that twi is continuously evil because we EXPERIENCED great evil at the hands of twi leadership, as well as had friends that were treated in a visciously cruel manner.
Maybe *some people* would HATE to see that happen to any other naieve unsuspecting person....one who`s suspiscions are disarmed because twi teaches from the bible.
Maybe OTHER people simply didn`t experience the evil, and wish that *some people* would just stop speaking up...lol .... because OTHER people had family members that were placed in a position to buy them some immunity.....
Moral of the post? Don`t get involved if you don`t have friends in high places, to protect you from the evil.
J.M., I found that the love and support that was "freely" offered eventually exacted a price. When I took their intermediate class, I started hearing things like "eventually we should come to the realization that we owe our very lives to the ministry that taught us The Word", and other such nonsense. By that time, my B S meter was dulled. At the time, I had a couple of second thoughts, but dismissed them because of the love I experienced in the local fellowship. I think they use love, group approval and the word as a drug. Looking back, I should have stood up and yelled BS! But my senses were already dulled. It was easy to assign my second thoughts as thinking evil, and ignore them. I hope you remember, you do not owe them a **** thing.
I think you should go, as long as you enjoy it. I wouldn't offer questions to challenge them, but I would press them to explain everything they told me in the clearest terms, so I fully understood.
If you feel confused, it's not you. What they are telling you is confusing. They were confused once too, until they (like us here) eventually just accepted explanations at face-value and finally forgot to make any sense of it. That is The Way's version of "believing." It's persuasion by attrition.
Too often, when I began with the Way fellowships, I'd ask questions which would be put off with, "That is answered in the class." Well, it wasn't. Eventually, I didn't need to ask any more. You sort of move on to more pressing things, like putting classes together.
If you're a perceptive and discerning person, you may begin to wonder why the holy scriptures of a living, "breathing," present God requires such a methodical and formulaic approach. You may begin to wonder if The Way's methods and formulas are the only good ones out there. (Rules for "biblical interpretion:" in the verse, in the context, where used before, scriptural pile up, etc)
You may discover that those methods and formulas are even more important (to The Way) than the scriptures themselves, because only they can inform us what the scriptures mean.
And who came up with those formulas, and their very specific applications? The Way did. They lead you to believe the formulas and methods are biblical, offering EXAMPLES of passages where the formulas appear to work. (Suppose you wore blue one day and green the next, and I said it was proof you always wore blue, followed by green. Wouldn't that be foolish?)
It's illogical and unscholastic at best, but in real terms, it's pretty deceitful. It's how they try to corner the market (and I do mean "market") on the interpretation of the bible. Whoever makes the rules wins the game. The Way knows this very well.
If church is something you want for your life, keep looking around. Invite your friend along.
Bottom line, if you want to "belong" to a group like The Way, you will need to accept things you know are not true. It's easier than you might think. They will help you forget all about it.
But to be fair, they did get a few things right. One of the main things that I find distasteful, is that instead of doing something godly with it, may times, they used it to fortify an "us vs. them" mentality. In my opinion, I think that is why many stayed for as long as they did. Only after a long time did I decide what they had to offer was just not worth the real price.
I was in twi for 20 years. I will never be involved in that organization again. They have it all wrong concerning Jesus. They say you don't have a relationship with God. It's a dull, boring way to fellowship. There is no real life in that "church". The people are a bunch of stepford believers, but maybe you need to go and see for yourself.
If you really want to see their "true" colors, say no to taking the class. See how they treat you then. You will never be so pressured in your life. After so much pressuring, you wll learn to say yes to everything. They will have you washing their car, cleaning their house, babysitting their kids. They will say you are "blessed" and "special" to do this. They will try to convince you God wants you to take that damn class. That's how they got me. They pressured me in to everything. If you say no, you will be targeted by many phone calls, visits, and "talks". That's the way they do things instead of trusting God to put people in their paths. But, then again, I don't think God ever put people in their paths. It is a horrid existence in twitville.
Read the thread about The Political Dance of TWI. You think we are joking? We aren't (except for my comment about needing to consult leadership about when to wipe my arse). But they did try to get involved in people's lives too much. Just ask those who were "counseled" abou their personal sex lives with their spouses, how clean they kept their house, how they kept their budget. There were days that people were required to meet with their fellowship coordinator to go over their budget.
If you like control, go ahead and keep going to fellowship. They'll suck you in one way or another. Then 20 years will go by, and you'll be wondering what the H happened. You will spend a few more years getting over it, and then you can start to be normal again. But once you are involved, it never completely goes away. It's like the Hotel California. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.
You have spent more time and sweat unravelling and exposing the truth about TWI than most of us here. Your oddlist was for me like toto pulling down the curtain to expose the real Oz. It helped me move from not caring to understanding. I always will be grateful.
I guess I am a little surprised given what you know why would you even consider going back? Especially you. Could you enlightened us why you feel drawn back?
sooooo --- JM --- if you're still around --- do what you think is best, but just don't get sucked up into anything, ok? :)-->
It's admirable that you want to go with a friend to *church*. I have done the same. The key to all of this here is --- if you do decide to go, go for the sake of your friend, listen to what is said, and above all -- remember what we have said here.
What you have heard here comes from decades of personal experience, misfortune, lost expectations, frustration, etc., of those who peeked through the door, then stepped over the threshold and into oblivion, and luckily, found our way back out of that black hole that robbed many of us of all that we held dear.
When I "window-shop", I leave my wallet at home.
When I call about an ad in the paper, it is an inquiry only.
Shopping for fresh fruit, I look at all that is offered, pick the best, and leave the rest on the shelf.
Needing gasoline for my car, I go where the prices are cheapest.
When I try a new church, I listen, drink their coffee afterwards, and leave.
I came, I saw, I chose, I left --- and nothing was lost by it.
In other words --- you may not be satisfied until you have gone, but if you do so -- make no commitment. Treat it like window-shopping, calling about an ad in the paper, shopping for fresh fruit, or getting gasoline for your car.
It is guaranteed that you will not really see what we have described to you here (on your first few visits), but believe me -- all that has been said here (and more) has been, and always will be an integral part of twi.
So -- go *shopping* if you will, but leave the wallet (both physical and spiritual) at home. :)-->
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JM
When I mentioned the fact that I was seriously asking these questions I did not mean that no one had answered them. I was talking specifically to George Aar, who asked if I was really looking for advice. I was informing them that yes I really was looking for opinions on this. They also said something about how they can't imagine anyone enjoying going to fellowship and were suspicious of me because of that. Much of what I said was simply in response to that, not to everyone in general. Sorry, I was not trying to offend the rest of you, and I do thank you for your responses and will take them into consideration.
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excathedra
under george's name to the left, it says:
"Resident Curmudgeon"
i think that means cranky but i'm not sure
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JM
haha so it does...I hadn't noticed that...thank you for pointing that out lol well again sorry to anyone i offended...it wasn't intential...and I really do appreciate getting some feedback because nobody has really heard of TWI so nobody outside of here has been able to give me any real help.
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shazdancer
Hi, JM, and welcome!
You will certainly find some nice people in The Way. You will probably hear some nice teachings on the Bible, as well. You may even find a home fellowship situation where you can attend as you please and not be pressured.
Our beef is not with some nice people who have opened their homes to people to come and hear how God loves them. Our difficulty is with the organization, and much of its leadership. The organization was founded by a man who claimed that God told him He would teach him the Word if he would teach it to others, then he plagiarized the works of others and sold them as his original work. When his teachings caught on with young people in the 70's, he took sexual advantage of many. Although he preached the Word of God, his ego and nastiness behind the scenes were legendary. He raised up leadership that would equal, and sometimes surpass, his level of cruelty. They are quite controlling of any believers who become more deeply involved in their advanced training programs, such as Way Disciples, Way Corps, or the Advanced Class.
Funny, but we thought that an organization founded on the Bible would operate with love and respect. It didn't turn out that way.
We hope that, if you decide to visit, you will see the red flags that indicate this is not a healthy organization. Many of us missed those signs and suffered for it.
Regards,
Shaz
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Radar OReilly
SHAZ!!!!!!!!!!
STOP READING MY MIND AND POSTING IT HERE AT GREASESPOT!!!!!!!!
Seriously, JM, I spent almost 30 years in twi. I got involved my freshman year in high school....1971-72 and left on December 1, 1999.
It isn't as it appears, it isn't innocent, or harmless or empowering. I am not even convinced that it is Christian. I don't know when I think it became a cult....but I do know that NOW it is a cult. A harmful, dangerous, life sucking, cult.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, take up one of the many offers on this thread to speak privately with some of the posters, look in my profile and contact me. JUST DON'T sink your heart and soul into twi, friend or no friend......your life is the only one you have. Don't spend even a second of it, committed to a false ministry.
radar
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I really dig that one.
Hey JM, I have an outie and i am not a lesbian either, but if i had an innie i would be a lesbian
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My3Cents
JM,
Look at a thread called "The Political Dance of TWI" some of those Q&A are satirical but if you ask some of those questions of a twi follower, you'll be surprised which ones are not.
The main thing is stay true to what you know in your gut is right. The problem is that there is a lot of emotion (or at least was when I got involved) and even sexual energy that makes it hard to separate what you want to be right from what you know is.
Enjoy the journey.
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excathedra
that's really so, my3cents, about the emotions. i was thinking about my first couple of years in, even, and how there was a voice in the back of my head (mr fletcher) telling me it was screwed, but i kept renewing my mind
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oldiesman
JM, if you do decide to keep going to the fellowships, I'd love to hear what they're teaching, and your thoughts and experiences. It seems some folks who post here see only continuous evil in everything about TWI. But some of us don't. So feel free to share, if you like. If you can't stomach the responses, you can always go private with one of us if you want.
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Steve!
JM, you've really done nothing to apologize for. I don't see anything that you've posted that is even remotely offensive.
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rascal
Hee hee, I guess that I am *some people*.
Maybe *some people* see and believe that twi is continuously evil because we EXPERIENCED great evil at the hands of twi leadership, as well as had friends that were treated in a visciously cruel manner.
Maybe *some people* would HATE to see that happen to any other naieve unsuspecting person....one who`s suspiscions are disarmed because twi teaches from the bible.
Maybe OTHER people simply didn`t experience the evil, and wish that *some people* would just stop speaking up...lol .... because OTHER people had family members that were placed in a position to buy them some immunity.....
Moral of the post? Don`t get involved if you don`t have friends in high places, to protect you from the evil.
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Ham
J.M., I found that the love and support that was "freely" offered eventually exacted a price. When I took their intermediate class, I started hearing things like "eventually we should come to the realization that we owe our very lives to the ministry that taught us The Word", and other such nonsense. By that time, my B S meter was dulled. At the time, I had a couple of second thoughts, but dismissed them because of the love I experienced in the local fellowship. I think they use love, group approval and the word as a drug. Looking back, I should have stood up and yelled BS! But my senses were already dulled. It was easy to assign my second thoughts as thinking evil, and ignore them. I hope you remember, you do not owe them a **** thing.
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excathedra
!
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Belle
The nerve of *some people*!!! Can you believe that still goes on, ex???
Completely shocking!!
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oldiesman
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satori001
I think you should go, as long as you enjoy it. I wouldn't offer questions to challenge them, but I would press them to explain everything they told me in the clearest terms, so I fully understood.
If you feel confused, it's not you. What they are telling you is confusing. They were confused once too, until they (like us here) eventually just accepted explanations at face-value and finally forgot to make any sense of it. That is The Way's version of "believing." It's persuasion by attrition.
Too often, when I began with the Way fellowships, I'd ask questions which would be put off with, "That is answered in the class." Well, it wasn't. Eventually, I didn't need to ask any more. You sort of move on to more pressing things, like putting classes together.
If you're a perceptive and discerning person, you may begin to wonder why the holy scriptures of a living, "breathing," present God requires such a methodical and formulaic approach. You may begin to wonder if The Way's methods and formulas are the only good ones out there. (Rules for "biblical interpretion:" in the verse, in the context, where used before, scriptural pile up, etc)
You may discover that those methods and formulas are even more important (to The Way) than the scriptures themselves, because only they can inform us what the scriptures mean.
And who came up with those formulas, and their very specific applications? The Way did. They lead you to believe the formulas and methods are biblical, offering EXAMPLES of passages where the formulas appear to work. (Suppose you wore blue one day and green the next, and I said it was proof you always wore blue, followed by green. Wouldn't that be foolish?)
It's illogical and unscholastic at best, but in real terms, it's pretty deceitful. It's how they try to corner the market (and I do mean "market") on the interpretation of the bible. Whoever makes the rules wins the game. The Way knows this very well.
If church is something you want for your life, keep looking around. Invite your friend along.
Bottom line, if you want to "belong" to a group like The Way, you will need to accept things you know are not true. It's easier than you might think. They will help you forget all about it.
Regards...
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Ham
But to be fair, they did get a few things right. One of the main things that I find distasteful, is that instead of doing something godly with it, may times, they used it to fortify an "us vs. them" mentality. In my opinion, I think that is why many stayed for as long as they did. Only after a long time did I decide what they had to offer was just not worth the real price.
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Nottawayfer
JM,
I was in twi for 20 years. I will never be involved in that organization again. They have it all wrong concerning Jesus. They say you don't have a relationship with God. It's a dull, boring way to fellowship. There is no real life in that "church". The people are a bunch of stepford believers, but maybe you need to go and see for yourself.
If you really want to see their "true" colors, say no to taking the class. See how they treat you then. You will never be so pressured in your life. After so much pressuring, you wll learn to say yes to everything. They will have you washing their car, cleaning their house, babysitting their kids. They will say you are "blessed" and "special" to do this. They will try to convince you God wants you to take that damn class. That's how they got me. They pressured me in to everything. If you say no, you will be targeted by many phone calls, visits, and "talks". That's the way they do things instead of trusting God to put people in their paths. But, then again, I don't think God ever put people in their paths. It is a horrid existence in twitville.
Read the thread about The Political Dance of TWI. You think we are joking? We aren't (except for my comment about needing to consult leadership about when to wipe my arse). But they did try to get involved in people's lives too much. Just ask those who were "counseled" abou their personal sex lives with their spouses, how clean they kept their house, how they kept their budget. There were days that people were required to meet with their fellowship coordinator to go over their budget.
If you like control, go ahead and keep going to fellowship. They'll suck you in one way or another. Then 20 years will go by, and you'll be wondering what the H happened. You will spend a few more years getting over it, and then you can start to be normal again. But once you are involved, it never completely goes away. It's like the Hotel California. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.
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JustThinking
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oenophile
Jim,
You have spent more time and sweat unravelling and exposing the truth about TWI than most of us here. Your oddlist was for me like toto pulling down the curtain to expose the real Oz. It helped me move from not caring to understanding. I always will be grateful.
I guess I am a little surprised given what you know why would you even consider going back? Especially you. Could you enlightened us why you feel drawn back?
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JustThinking
Oenophile,
Who is Jim?
JT
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dmiller
JT --- am thinking Oeno mistook JM for Jim Martin.
;)-->
(I did too initially, until I started reading this thread.)
:)-->
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dmiller
sooooo --- JM --- if you're still around --- do what you think is best, but just don't get sucked up into anything, ok?
:)-->
It's admirable that you want to go with a friend to *church*. I have done the same. The key to all of this here is --- if you do decide to go, go for the sake of your friend, listen to what is said, and above all -- remember what we have said here.
What you have heard here comes from decades of personal experience, misfortune, lost expectations, frustration, etc., of those who peeked through the door, then stepped over the threshold and into oblivion, and luckily, found our way back out of that black hole that robbed many of us of all that we held dear.
When I "window-shop", I leave my wallet at home.
When I call about an ad in the paper, it is an inquiry only.
Shopping for fresh fruit, I look at all that is offered, pick the best, and leave the rest on the shelf.
Needing gasoline for my car, I go where the prices are cheapest.
When I try a new church, I listen, drink their coffee afterwards, and leave.
I came, I saw, I chose, I left --- and nothing was lost by it.
In other words --- you may not be satisfied until you have gone, but if you do so -- make no commitment. Treat it like window-shopping, calling about an ad in the paper, shopping for fresh fruit, or getting gasoline for your car.
It is guaranteed that you will not really see what we have described to you here (on your first few visits), but believe me -- all that has been said here (and more) has been, and always will be an integral part of twi.
So -- go *shopping* if you will, but leave the wallet (both physical and spiritual) at home.
:)-->
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Steve!
That's right, Robin, and besides, JM's a girl, and I'm pretty sure that Jim Martin is not.
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