Look around the cafe. We're not making this stuff up. With a small handful of exceptions we were all in TWI and know what we're talking about. TWI is bad news. Stay away.
Why exactly are you involved in TWI anyway? That may help us give you a more specific answer.
Is it horrible for me to attend fellowship with her?
No, not at all.
quote: Am I getting too involved with TWI to just be looking at it?
or the girl? ;)-->
quote:Is there any way I can go to fellowship and just go to see what it is like not necesarily because I want to be part of TWI?
That's up to you.
Personally, I think it's good to maintain an open mind.
However, I've observed the tendency for a good many folks who have gotten involved with the Way to lose that adventurous "open-mindedness" amidst getting caught up in the group perspective.
They have even gone so far as to demonize an open mind the further one becomes involved in the group, through the fearful idea that an open mind is like a trap-door through which "devil spirits" may enter.
In any event, if you do decide to check out a fellowship, you were wise to inquire of those who were formerly involved with the group - at least you're going into it with both eyes open.
Is a woman worth getting mixed up in an organization that can possibly cause you potential harm? Kinda like "Come into my parlor, says the spider to the fly". I think a woman worth your trouble would love you just as you are, and not because you are willing to get involved in her beloved organization. If she tries to "encourage" you to get involved in classes, I'd have second thoughts about her. Just MHO.
I have to agree with Roy, those are all very good points that he makes. If they have a problem with you following those 7 points, then I would question any further involvement with them.
You are always "Welcome at the Vay" until you refuse to give them money, all your time and your total devotion to the leadership. As long as you want to continue to be a "free-thinker" and not go along with the "borg mentality", she will be told to drop you and your friendship like a hot potato or her standing will be brought into question, and if she refuses she can be marked and avoided herself.
It is good that you're asking these questions. Have you asked the same questions of leaders at the Way? Just curious. When I began to question them, their answers amounted to "everyone is against us because we stand for God." Which is, of course, a non-answer. It doesn't say that the issues were true or not true, just changes the subject. Watch out for tricks like that and others in ANY suspicious group.
I am not sure how old you are but if you came to the Way because of dating you may be a young person. If so, you may want to consider bringing a second person with you who has more life experience for a second opinion. One sure sign of a cult is pressure to isolate you and control what you see and hear. Turning on the light only scares the cockroaches. If you bring a parent, older brother/sister, etc. you are more likely to get an unbiased opinion. They won't have the emotional attachment of a girl to potentially affect them.
One last point. Do NOT expect anything other than a wonderful experience at first. It is their hallmark. You will be treated very well and given lots of attention. It isn't usually until after the first class that the demands start to come. Please do not rely on what you see today to decide. Ask about future commitments. Just ask a lot of questions. Any group should feel comfortable discussing them if they have nothing to hide.
It is good that you're asking these questions. Have you asked the same questions of leaders at the Way? Just curious. When I began to question them, their answers amounted to "everyone is against us because we stand for God." Which is, of course, a non-answer. It doesn't say that the issues were true or not true, just changes the subject. Watch out for tricks like that and others in ANY suspicious group.
I am not sure how old you are but if you came to the Way because of dating you may be a young person. If so, you may want to consider bringing a second person with you who has more life experience for a second opinion. One sure sign of a cult is pressure to isolate you and control what you see and hear. Turning on the light only scares the cockroaches. If you bring a parent, older brother/sister, etc. you are more likely to get an unbiased opinion. They won't have the emotional attachment of a girl to potentially affect them.
One last point. Do NOT expect anything other than a wonderful experience at first. It is their hallmark. You will be treated very well and given lots of attention. It isn't usually until after the first class that the demands start to come. Please do not rely on what you see today to decide. Ask about future commitments. Just ask a lot of questions. Any group should feel comfortable discussing them if they have nothing to hide.
JT
I'd second all of that.
Ask lots of questions.
Use an impartial observer-emotions and hormones do NOT an
objective viewpoint make.
Watch how nice they are-until they're clear you are NOT interested
in giving them 15% of your income, signing up for paying classes,
giving huge blocks of time in the future, etc.
Then you're considered a drag on their time. You're not valued
because you're a person-you've valued for your income. If they
could get your money without you, they'd prefer that.
Typical social pressures will be placed to get you to conform.
BTW,
find out what they say about all OTHER Christians. It's not
pretty. THEY are the ONLY ones with the truth.
For fun, look into the origin of the group.
VPW claimed that, in 1952, God Almighty told him that if he
taught it to others, He (God) would teach him His Word like it
hasn't been known since the First Century. God confirmed this,
he later added, by showing him a vision of a snowstorm.
Mind you, the practices and structure he built bore little, if
any, similarity to those First Century Christians. (Let me know
if you need a breakdown.) Further, vpw has been shown to have
taken nearly everything he taught from a handful of other writers
(whom he failed to credit-which is "plagiarism".) Therefore,
everything he "learned" was already known, and not newly taught
to him since the First Century.
The autocratic structure of twi was his brainchild. Whosoever
holds the top office wields near-absolute power and there are
NO "checks and balances". This allowed him to be so sweet in
public, and in private, set up a little network (with locations)
to allow him to rape and molest impressionable young females.
His hand-picked successor (not chosen by the assembly like in
Acts 1) learned his lessons well about what you can get away with,
but failed to learn to cover his tracks as well,
and made the mistake of buying into his own propaganda of
omniscience. This meant he was caught and sued a few times,
which is why twi finally had to ask him to step down as
president. They pretended to be surprised by all of it, as if
they were not complicit in his (and vpw's) evil deeds and rapes.
(It takes a few people to keep a conspiracy "secret".) Mind you,
they have their own sins to account for, but they were more
clever in committing them and covered their tracks.
========
Take a look around the site. Check out all the Editorials and
Documents and stuff.
Check out the "About the Way" forum and "Greasespot 101".
Make an informed decision after you've looked around a lot.
=================
BTW,
if you want to see what exposure to twi can result in,
there's a "minority viewpoint" around here,
and "Mike" is its most prominent poster.
Look over his posts and threads,
and you'll see one possible result of placing all your
In their current "bible" class, the Way of Abundance and Power, the original sin is declared to be that Eve had lesbian sex with Satan. Even most people that are involved with TWI have difficulty with that.
Tell them that you have a lot of debt, and therefore very little money to abundantly share. See how fast they turn. They have a weird stance on debt - if you have leadership aspirations, or if you want to attend the Advanced Class on WAP, you can't have a mortgage. That's right, you can pay a higher rent than a mortgage payment and be golden, but you can't have a mortgage. Oh, the exception to that is if the mortgage says somewhere on it "Rent to Own".
Many many wayfers have had to sell houses to get out of debt because of their non-policy policy.
Uh, do you really want advice, or are you just trolling?
Your post tends to make me just a tad suspicious, 'cause I can't for the life of me imagine anyone enjoying going to a Wayfer fellowship anymore. I dunno, maybe you like trips to the dentist as well?
quote:I have been to fellowship with a friend of mine many times. I really enjoyed going, but now that I have seen both sides of the argument about TWI, I'm not sure I want to be involved.
JM, here's what I would do: confront the friend you have been going with, and the coordinator of the meeting, with the things you have apprehensions about. See what they have to say about your thoughts, and see if their response makes sense and satisfies you. I think it all may boil down to this: can you trust them, and are they being really honest with you and care about what you think? Once you get answers to those questions, you may be able to figure this all out for yourself.
JM, there were an astonishing amount of people sucked into twi because of the cute girl or hot guy that they thought were interested in them.
Unfortunatly, in the majority of the cases....the sole interest is in getting you involved. The committed wayfers will stop at very little ...it is a mark of their spirituality and quite a feather in their cap if they can bring someone to fellowship....you are GOLD to this girl AND her fellowship...it tells em that they are *right on* n *hot* spiritually.
Expect lots of schmoozing and love bombing, from EVERYONE.....untill you make it clear that you are not interested in 100 percent committment...then you become something that they want to scrape off the bottom of their shoe in disgust.
Also...you want to see em panic? Just tell em you have been to this web sight.
Having been involved for over a decade....I can only WISH that I could do it all over again and RUN in the other direction when invited to my first fellowship....I can never retrieve the lost youth, oportunities, friendships and family that my invovement in twi cost me.
JM, oldiesman provides a perspective from someone who would attend TWI meetings if they were within a reasonable driving distance.
I think that what would be valuable would be the postings of those that are still "in" or are very recently out. Belle is a poster that left within the last several months, and there are a few innies that post here.
Before making a decision one way or another, perhaps you want to look up their posts and read them.
Oh, here's something to try - say "Merry Christmas!" to the fellow.... coordinator, and see what kind of response you get. He may very well respond in kind - but I think if you catch him off guard, he'll get a look in his eyes while he's thinking. Or he'll stammer or respond, "Thank you!" or "Happy Holidays" or some such. You see, "Christmas" is not an officially sanctioned TWIt word. Their jargon for "Christmas" is "Ho ho" - they say "Happy Household Holiday" or "Happy Ho-ho".
Alright for everyones information I am not interested in the girl as more than a friend. I am a girl and am not a lesbian. She did not make me go to fellowship. I went with her because I needed someone to go to church with and did not want to keep attending church where I had been going. I was a Catholic before, for those of you who were wondering. And I am seriously asking these question, I don't want you condemming me because of going to fellowship with her, I just want to know what you guys think about those things.
quote:Is there any way I can go to fellowship and just go to see what it is like not necesarily because I want to be part of TWI?
Perhaps. JM, back in my early days of TWI, like the 1970's and 1980's, it was possible for the average "Joe" to just go to a fellowship once a week, and proceed no further if you like. I don't know if that's possible today. From what I've heard, they want more commitment from participants today. But hey, I know exactly what you're talking about. Perhaps you can keep trying it for a while and if you feel too much pressure, back off?
One of the early mottos of TWI was that the participant "freely availed" themselves to spiritual nurture and growth. Therefore if you feel you're not "freely availing yourself", perhaps you are being pushed into something you may not want?
Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good.
Folks tried to tell me that twi was a cult back in the 70s when I first became involved...I didn`t believe them...The folks in twi were too nice, their enthusiasm too genuine to be questioned....it felt good to be loved....good to be needed by God...good to belong.
It wouldn`t suprise me if you won`t hear our voices either.
It will take years for you to see the true face of twi....eventually you probably will have abandoned former interests, friends and family...because it will be subtely (and sometimes NOT So subtely) hinted at that they are no longer *spriritual* enough for your new scripturally oriented self.
Take notice, do those in your fellowship have any outside interest? Participate in any community activities? Ever visit family members or talk of visiting for the holidays? Have pets?
When I was involved, fellowship and twi activities were the only things I cared about....and people in fellowship were the only ones that I loved or cared about....it was a long subtle indoctrination process.....even going in with your eyes wide open, you may not catch on for years.....what a waste
When faced with the choice of obey leadership, or loose the fellowship of the other believers....I (and others) obeyed and did some awfull things...
twi`s will became synonimous with God`s will, and I felt I could not live without either....that if I left.....satan could and WOULD destroy me....yes THEY taught me that.
Welcome, JM! I'm recently out and had to get divorced to get out. My story is in the MY STORY section of the forums. There are other stories there, too, that might shed some light on how TWI treats people.
I'm happy to talk to you and answer any questions you might have. Just send me a private topic.
TWI is very good at giving political type answers to your questions. I might start a thread on that for your benefit (and our fun). We jest, but remember there's truth to everything we joke about or it wouldn't be so funny. I laugh because crying just isn't productive.
I just say be careful, be very careful. "Normal" churches have contemporary services now and do things a lot more geared toward young people in those services. I suggest trying a Methodist, Presbyterian or Baptist church (not Baptist if you're in the south, though. ;)--> ) They teach what they believe, but they don't check up on people to make sure they're towing the line. They don't invade the privacy of their members and they don't have stupid rules of engagement.
BTW, if you get heavily involved with TWI, you will not be able to marry anyone outside TWI and y'all will have to take the full series of classes they offer, which means you will not be able to buy a house or be in debt for a nice car.
These people teach "The More Abundant Life" but look around....are they REALLY living the more abundant life? In all categories of life, not just monetarily, but most of them are just a step above the poverty line - at least in my area they are.
Alright for everyones information I am not interested in the girl as more than a friend. I am a girl and am not a lesbian. She did not make me go to fellowship. I went with her because I needed someone to go to church with and did not want to keep attending church where I had been going. I was a Catholic before, for those of you who were wondering. And I am seriously asking these question, I don't want you condemming me because of going to fellowship with her, I just want to know what you guys think about those things.
Okay, ease up :D-->
No one's condemning you, and we are giving serious answers.
After (I assume) considering the advice you have received, what do you think now?
JM, you said: I don't want you condemming me because of going to fellowship with her, I just want to know what you guys think about those things
================================================
1. Noone has condemned you here. Noone know about condemnation better then us, believe it.
2. You have gotten tons of thoughts on what is thought about 'those things'. Again, noone knows more about TWI than the ones that have been in the puke and pi$$ of the place and come out the rectal end.
3. As has been suggested to you before, read these forums.
Seriously read them and think about what is said. You'll find plenty of information here and 'what we thinks. Not just this one, but the others as well.
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Oakspear
JM:
Look around the cafe. We're not making this stuff up. With a small handful of exceptions we were all in TWI and know what we're talking about. TWI is bad news. Stay away.
Why exactly are you involved in TWI anyway? That may help us give you a more specific answer.
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year2027
God first
Beloved JM
What to do about trig? That a hard question because within the small trig fellowship I am sure there are a lot of loving people.
If your eyes are open it might not hurt to go to trig to fellowship with friends you met
But I make sure I know all things to watch for
Here are some things I would watch for
1. do not get into a class
2. do not go to a bigger metting
3. stay away from leadership
4. keep your money but if you want to give bring coffe or food for after fellowship
5. let them know you are part of Greas Spot Cafe
6. do not believe everything you hear
7. if a fight of words begin because you do not trust them leave
These are just some things I would think about if they would let me go
About the way everyone must make up their own mind but at least be careful
with love and an holy kiss Roy
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TheInvisibleDan
No, not at all.
or the girl?
;)-->
That's up to you.
Personally, I think it's good to maintain an open mind.
However, I've observed the tendency for a good many folks who have gotten involved with the Way to lose that adventurous "open-mindedness" amidst getting caught up in the group perspective.
They have even gone so far as to demonize an open mind the further one becomes involved in the group, through the fearful idea that an open mind is like a trap-door through which "devil spirits" may enter.
In any event, if you do decide to check out a fellowship, you were wise to inquire of those who were formerly involved with the group - at least you're going into it with both eyes open.
Danny
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CKnapp3
JM,
Is a woman worth getting mixed up in an organization that can possibly cause you potential harm? Kinda like "Come into my parlor, says the spider to the fly". I think a woman worth your trouble would love you just as you are, and not because you are willing to get involved in her beloved organization. If she tries to "encourage" you to get involved in classes, I'd have second thoughts about her. Just MHO.
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outofdafog
I have to agree with Roy, those are all very good points that he makes. If they have a problem with you following those 7 points, then I would question any further involvement with them.
You are always "Welcome at the Vay" until you refuse to give them money, all your time and your total devotion to the leadership. As long as you want to continue to be a "free-thinker" and not go along with the "borg mentality", she will be told to drop you and your friendship like a hot potato or her standing will be brought into question, and if she refuses she can be marked and avoided herself.
Sounds bizarre huh? but true...........
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JustThinking
JM,
It is good that you're asking these questions. Have you asked the same questions of leaders at the Way? Just curious. When I began to question them, their answers amounted to "everyone is against us because we stand for God." Which is, of course, a non-answer. It doesn't say that the issues were true or not true, just changes the subject. Watch out for tricks like that and others in ANY suspicious group.
I am not sure how old you are but if you came to the Way because of dating you may be a young person. If so, you may want to consider bringing a second person with you who has more life experience for a second opinion. One sure sign of a cult is pressure to isolate you and control what you see and hear. Turning on the light only scares the cockroaches. If you bring a parent, older brother/sister, etc. you are more likely to get an unbiased opinion. They won't have the emotional attachment of a girl to potentially affect them.
One last point. Do NOT expect anything other than a wonderful experience at first. It is their hallmark. You will be treated very well and given lots of attention. It isn't usually until after the first class that the demands start to come. Please do not rely on what you see today to decide. Ask about future commitments. Just ask a lot of questions. Any group should feel comfortable discussing them if they have nothing to hide.
JT
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WordWolf
I'd second all of that.
Ask lots of questions.
Use an impartial observer-emotions and hormones do NOT an
objective viewpoint make.
Watch how nice they are-until they're clear you are NOT interested
in giving them 15% of your income, signing up for paying classes,
giving huge blocks of time in the future, etc.
Then you're considered a drag on their time. You're not valued
because you're a person-you've valued for your income. If they
could get your money without you, they'd prefer that.
Typical social pressures will be placed to get you to conform.
BTW,
find out what they say about all OTHER Christians. It's not
pretty. THEY are the ONLY ones with the truth.
For fun, look into the origin of the group.
VPW claimed that, in 1952, God Almighty told him that if he
taught it to others, He (God) would teach him His Word like it
hasn't been known since the First Century. God confirmed this,
he later added, by showing him a vision of a snowstorm.
Mind you, the practices and structure he built bore little, if
any, similarity to those First Century Christians. (Let me know
if you need a breakdown.) Further, vpw has been shown to have
taken nearly everything he taught from a handful of other writers
(whom he failed to credit-which is "plagiarism".) Therefore,
everything he "learned" was already known, and not newly taught
to him since the First Century.
The autocratic structure of twi was his brainchild. Whosoever
holds the top office wields near-absolute power and there are
NO "checks and balances". This allowed him to be so sweet in
public, and in private, set up a little network (with locations)
to allow him to rape and molest impressionable young females.
His hand-picked successor (not chosen by the assembly like in
Acts 1) learned his lessons well about what you can get away with,
but failed to learn to cover his tracks as well,
and made the mistake of buying into his own propaganda of
omniscience. This meant he was caught and sued a few times,
which is why twi finally had to ask him to step down as
president. They pretended to be surprised by all of it, as if
they were not complicit in his (and vpw's) evil deeds and rapes.
(It takes a few people to keep a conspiracy "secret".) Mind you,
they have their own sins to account for, but they were more
clever in committing them and covered their tracks.
========
Take a look around the site. Check out all the Editorials and
Documents and stuff.
Check out the "About the Way" forum and "Greasespot 101".
Make an informed decision after you've looked around a lot.
=================
BTW,
if you want to see what exposure to twi can result in,
there's a "minority viewpoint" around here,
and "Mike" is its most prominent poster.
Look over his posts and threads,
and you'll see one possible result of placing all your
trust in this organization and/or its teachings.
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Steve!
Look at some of their doctrine.
In their current "bible" class, the Way of Abundance and Power, the original sin is declared to be that Eve had lesbian sex with Satan. Even most people that are involved with TWI have difficulty with that.
Tell them that you have a lot of debt, and therefore very little money to abundantly share. See how fast they turn. They have a weird stance on debt - if you have leadership aspirations, or if you want to attend the Advanced Class on WAP, you can't have a mortgage. That's right, you can pay a higher rent than a mortgage payment and be golden, but you can't have a mortgage. Oh, the exception to that is if the mortgage says somewhere on it "Rent to Own".
Many many wayfers have had to sell houses to get out of debt because of their non-policy policy.
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George Aar
JM,
Uh, do you really want advice, or are you just trolling?
Your post tends to make me just a tad suspicious, 'cause I can't for the life of me imagine anyone enjoying going to a Wayfer fellowship anymore. I dunno, maybe you like trips to the dentist as well?
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excathedra
JM, what is your old church group, if i may ask ?
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mstar1
Yea I am curious about your old church group as well.
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oldiesman
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rascal
JM, there were an astonishing amount of people sucked into twi because of the cute girl or hot guy that they thought were interested in them.
Unfortunatly, in the majority of the cases....the sole interest is in getting you involved. The committed wayfers will stop at very little ...it is a mark of their spirituality and quite a feather in their cap if they can bring someone to fellowship....you are GOLD to this girl AND her fellowship...it tells em that they are *right on* n *hot* spiritually.
Expect lots of schmoozing and love bombing, from EVERYONE.....untill you make it clear that you are not interested in 100 percent committment...then you become something that they want to scrape off the bottom of their shoe in disgust.
Also...you want to see em panic? Just tell em you have been to this web sight.
Having been involved for over a decade....I can only WISH that I could do it all over again and RUN in the other direction when invited to my first fellowship....I can never retrieve the lost youth, oportunities, friendships and family that my invovement in twi cost me.
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JM
haha Im not lookin at the girl...but good try...lol
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Steve!
JM, oldiesman provides a perspective from someone who would attend TWI meetings if they were within a reasonable driving distance.
I think that what would be valuable would be the postings of those that are still "in" or are very recently out. Belle is a poster that left within the last several months, and there are a few innies that post here.
Before making a decision one way or another, perhaps you want to look up their posts and read them.
Oh, here's something to try - say "Merry Christmas!" to the fellow.... coordinator, and see what kind of response you get. He may very well respond in kind - but I think if you catch him off guard, he'll get a look in his eyes while he's thinking. Or he'll stammer or respond, "Thank you!" or "Happy Holidays" or some such. You see, "Christmas" is not an officially sanctioned TWIt word. Their jargon for "Christmas" is "Ho ho" - they say "Happy Household Holiday" or "Happy Ho-ho".
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JM
Alright for everyones information I am not interested in the girl as more than a friend. I am a girl and am not a lesbian. She did not make me go to fellowship. I went with her because I needed someone to go to church with and did not want to keep attending church where I had been going. I was a Catholic before, for those of you who were wondering. And I am seriously asking these question, I don't want you condemming me because of going to fellowship with her, I just want to know what you guys think about those things.
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excathedra
JM, my two churches (about the same amount of time in each): catholic and the way international
so long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, goodbye
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oldiesman
One of the early mottos of TWI was that the participant "freely availed" themselves to spiritual nurture and growth. Therefore if you feel you're not "freely availing yourself", perhaps you are being pushed into something you may not want?
Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good.
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nandon
go to the fellowship if you want to.
just listen to the teachings.
here's an example:
"you must 'give' 10% of your income or God won't bless you"
if you like what they teach stay,
if not leave.
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rascal
Folks tried to tell me that twi was a cult back in the 70s when I first became involved...I didn`t believe them...The folks in twi were too nice, their enthusiasm too genuine to be questioned....it felt good to be loved....good to be needed by God...good to belong.
It wouldn`t suprise me if you won`t hear our voices either.
It will take years for you to see the true face of twi....eventually you probably will have abandoned former interests, friends and family...because it will be subtely (and sometimes NOT So subtely) hinted at that they are no longer *spriritual* enough for your new scripturally oriented self.
Take notice, do those in your fellowship have any outside interest? Participate in any community activities? Ever visit family members or talk of visiting for the holidays? Have pets?
When I was involved, fellowship and twi activities were the only things I cared about....and people in fellowship were the only ones that I loved or cared about....it was a long subtle indoctrination process.....even going in with your eyes wide open, you may not catch on for years.....what a waste
When faced with the choice of obey leadership, or loose the fellowship of the other believers....I (and others) obeyed and did some awfull things...
twi`s will became synonimous with God`s will, and I felt I could not live without either....that if I left.....satan could and WOULD destroy me....yes THEY taught me that.
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Belle
Welcome, JM! I'm recently out and had to get divorced to get out. My story is in the MY STORY section of the forums. There are other stories there, too, that might shed some light on how TWI treats people.
I'm happy to talk to you and answer any questions you might have. Just send me a private topic.
TWI is very good at giving political type answers to your questions. I might start a thread on that for your benefit (and our fun). We jest, but remember there's truth to everything we joke about or it wouldn't be so funny. I laugh because crying just isn't productive.
I just say be careful, be very careful. "Normal" churches have contemporary services now and do things a lot more geared toward young people in those services. I suggest trying a Methodist, Presbyterian or Baptist church (not Baptist if you're in the south, though.
;)--> ) They teach what they believe, but they don't check up on people to make sure they're towing the line. They don't invade the privacy of their members and they don't have stupid rules of engagement.
BTW, if you get heavily involved with TWI, you will not be able to marry anyone outside TWI and y'all will have to take the full series of classes they offer, which means you will not be able to buy a house or be in debt for a nice car.
These people teach "The More Abundant Life" but look around....are they REALLY living the more abundant life? In all categories of life, not just monetarily, but most of them are just a step above the poverty line - at least in my area they are.
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Oakspear
No one's condemning you, and we are giving serious answers.
After (I assume) considering the advice you have received, what do you think now?
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Shellon
JM, you said: I don't want you condemming me because of going to fellowship with her, I just want to know what you guys think about those things
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1. Noone has condemned you here. Noone know about condemnation better then us, believe it.
2. You have gotten tons of thoughts on what is thought about 'those things'. Again, noone knows more about TWI than the ones that have been in the puke and pi$$ of the place and come out the rectal end.
3. As has been suggested to you before, read these forums.
Seriously read them and think about what is said. You'll find plenty of information here and 'what we thinks. Not just this one, but the others as well.
Good luck to you.
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outandabout
Run run far away
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