It seems the more I know about TWI, the more it seems that those "in the know" and "close to the fire" have always acted quicker to jump ship than those of us "on the field" and kept ignorant of the little man behind the curtain.
Now, how do you explain the Green*'s and the Moynih*ns and others who've been around forever continuing to sell the b.s. that they know they're pushing? Is it just for the $$$$?
Good question! I think they have grown accustomed to eating so much shinola, that it actually started tasting good. Seems they paired up with the right group- some enjoy dishing it out, others enjoy eating it..
Knew John Lynn. Trusted him. Didn't like the way some Corps people went through this very dramatic personality shift and started ranting and screaming all sorts of nonsense about him tearing down God's ministry. Got lots of info from JAL about the continuing, ongoing adultery, about what happened to John Schoenheit regarding the Adultery Paper, etc.
After 2/26/87 letter, went to the aforementioned "Limb Meeting", endured all the rantings and ravings, saw John calmly explain his actions, then made the decision that I could not continue to follow this organization.
If BOT's including LCM had apologized, made corrections to wrong doctrines, and seized adulterous affairs, I would have been more than happy to continue. No apology. No correction. More affairs. Obviously, right decision to leave.
My sympathy and heart goes out to all who stayed around after '87 and endured all that ridiculous stuff that went on.
I think if it had been anyone but Geer presenting PoP, I might have listened. IMO, I thought he was a nut-job, still do. So I couldn't take anything he had written too seriously - and besides - it really didn't say much of anything, did it?
The first few years after PoP - Igotout and I looked into some of the "start-up" groups that were splitting off from TWI. We got tapes from Steve S*** in California; newsletters from JAL and others. All of them were trying to win us over to "their" side. We were still running a twig - and we'd put all the info we'd gotten from the spin-offs right on the table next to the Way Rag and Grapevines from TWI. We didn't really know what to do. All our friends were bailing - but we weren't ready to make that decision. Besides, where would we go to hear "the word"? (ugh).
At the time, TWI was still the largest and most organized group with the most material to offer, as well as events like Word in Business and the ROA. We decided to stick with TWI for those reasons, as well as a mis-guided sense of loyalty and all that Corps-Corps-Corps indoctrination.
After LCM came out of his "fog" and started going ape-sheet - we figured we'd just wait and see - thinking that it had to get better! I mentally gave it a year.
Then LCM released the Galatians tapes and I thought things were headed back in the right direction. Well, you know the rest.
In 1995, I had to go take the newest version of the Advanced Class in Rome City. I think it was probably the worst 10 days I'd had in TWI. Bunch of mindless twits cheering for a man screaming his head off on a video - others praising him - saying that they were proud that TWI "was no longer an open-door ministry".
That did it -
I got home - told hubby that when he was ready to leave - I'd be right behind him. It took 5 more years and Waydale to do it. The past 4 1/2 years have been amazing. I'm at the point now where I feel like TWI was the distant past instead of the recent past for me.
When CGeer headed off to Europe (1981), it quickly became evident that he was out for a POWER GRAB. From several sources, I heard that Bo Reahxxd and, later, Vince F. had constant dealings with CGeer's abrasiveness. From what I knew, by 1984......CGeer was well on his way to establishing HIS OWN OFFSHOOT MINISTRY. Wierwille's death came at "the perfect time" for CGeer's timeline to abandon twi's mother ship!!!
Therefore, when the passing of a patriarch was dumped on us at the 1986 corps week, I was NOT SURPRISED. Nor, was I inclined to follow CGeer's deception. About a week after this, I spent about an hour with Ricardo.....and he told me the background behind CGeer's statement that alluded to the trustees being murderers. CGeer's accusation was to incite rebellion and distrust of twi leadership. CGeer, who had spent years reading spy novels and biographies of great (and evil) men, was extremely cunning and manipulative.
With all of that said, I didn't trust CGeer. Period.
For me, it was really a choice of "keep moving with twi and wait & see" where this path leads. I certainly wasn't fully on lcm's bandwagon.....but I definitely was NOT going to join up with the CGeer outfits.
Long story short.......martindale seemed to get some momentum going by 1993, but then the "lcm-confidence" turned vicious. The homo purges.....the debt doctrine and deception....the witch hunts to sanctify the household.....and the ego-maniac style of leadership at hq. The worst was STILL COMING.
When lcm gave his revelation that all corps were to be full-time......THIS WAS A MAJOR CONTROL DEVICE. It radically changed the course of twi. From this blundering "revelation"....sprang ALL KINDS OF POLICIES & DOCTRINES. The time-management reports, the travel forms, the pet policy, the pregnancy policy, the gift moratorium, the cancelling of future ROAs (imo) and a host of others. You see.....once the corps were full-time, twi became the sole provider over what was a spiritual need. And, if the roa continued.....then, twi would have to PAY for all corps expenses, etc. It totally changed the dynamics of everything in twi!
Soon to follow, fanatical limb coordinators pushed these policies onto the field. One of the big instigators was Bob Moneyhands. These control policies were strictly to keep the abundant sharing FLOWING into hq.......these policies had little relevance to the believers on the field. Of course, martindale never stepped in and stopped it either.
For me, 1995 was the beginning of the end. Then, when the wap class was in the works.......everything was an attempt to "prop up the great one" namely lcm. Now, in retrospect....it's easy to see how lcm was grandstanding and racheting up the control all the while he (lcm) was deep in sin and lust. The man was HIDING BEHIND THE CURTAIN.
Everything that has happened since 1995, has clarified martindale's demise. He made his choices and he was finally found out.
It took me years to realize that HOWARD, DON, ROSALIE, DONNA, and many others were involved in this inner circle of deception and idolatry. But then, the MONEY was (and is) the central object of concern.
What a wake-up call.....to find all this in "a biblical ministry." :D-->
And, many of the offshoots (from what I've heard) are pretty lame as well.
After I left twi in 1987, I took a "hiatus" for several years...One day I decided to check out JAL's group. The thing that bothered me most was their insistance that I be counted as "one of them". Simply because I attended a couple of their meetings, they assumed that I was ready to become a "member". They tried to network me into their "system" but I wouldn't give up my "autonomy" and refused to play their "organization game". It seems imperative to all these "splinter guys", that they recruit others into their organization...which of course, is their attempt to elevate themselves as so called leaders...afterall, if you want to be a "leader", you must find those willing to follow and the more followers you have, the greater the success of the "leader"...and that IS what it's all about...feeding their own distorted egos.
...As for Martindale...I was present at the ceremony when Veepee put the mantle around his neck...
The guy had a look on his face of total arrogance. A little smirk around the corners of his mouth indicated that he was no longer Wierwille's chief a$$kisser, but was now HE who's a$$ must be kissed...It poured out of him...You could almost hear him thinking how all the currying for favor was worth it, because he was now the top Kahoona! The decay of this rancid little cult was always there...Martindale simply brought it to the surface for all to see.
Mrs. Wierwille, Martindale, Geer, Lynn, Dubofsky, the Georges, the Trustees, the Green*'s, the Moynih*ns, John Schoenheit, Bo Reahxxd, HOWARD, DON, ROSALIE, DONNA.
So many names, wow.
I was in from 1978 - 1997, my wife from 1976-1997. Neither one of us could name-drop so many names from TWI's upper crust. I did not know, who was screwing who, or who 'followed' who, or even who was a$$-ki$$ing who. From that list I have only met one of them, and that was in 2000.
It does seem to me that many people were deeply sucked into the inner workings of TWI [as if it were Harper Valley's PTA].
If so many who drinking from the trough of the Sunday Night Tapes each week, who was do word-studies and teaching each other from what we had learned?
If so many were so closely drawn to the 'trunk' of TWI's tree, who was left to minister to the Joe Beleivers out there?
It just seems that as long as I have been hanging around GS, everyone [most GS'ers] was at HQ, or sucking up to corporate-leadership, or at least knew all of the corporation's leadership and were following everything they did and said.
Was I the only one who ignored their stupidness and focused on those in my fellowship? I thought they were the ones in need of my help.
Was everyone else focused on the corporate-leadership, thinking that they could help the corporation?
Mrs. Wierwille, Martindale, Geer, Lynn, Dubofsky, the Georges, the Trustees, the Green*'s, the Moynih*ns, John Schoenheit, Bo Reahxxd, HOWARD, DON, ROSALIE, DONNA.
So many names, wow.
I was in from 1978 - 1997, my wife from 1976-1997. Neither one of us could name-drop so many names from TWI's upper crust. I did not know, who was screwing who, or who 'followed' who, or even who was a$$-ki$$ing who. From that list I have only met one of them, and that was in 2000.
It does seem to me that many people were deeply sucked into the inner workings of TWI [as if it were Harper Valley's PTA].
If so many who drinking from the trough of the Sunday Night Tapes each week, who was do word-studies and teaching each other from what we had learned?
If so many were so closely drawn to the 'trunk' of TWI's tree, who was left to minister to the Joe Beleivers out there?
Good observation. The way leadership during that time did not encourage people to just live godly lives and be part of a twig. They did not exault that kind of lifestyle. They exaulted the all out "dog soldier" we're here to MOVE the word. SO what tended to happen is to "be someone" in the organization meant you had to be on a leadership track.
This and the excessive demands of loyalty attracted people who had some emotional or psychological need. So it's no wonder that the folks at a place like Greasespot were mostly leaders who hung around at the top.
The more "normal" folk who just wanted to live a nice life and have it augmented by a nice bible study were not given much credence by many way corps or other leaders (at least while I was in this was my experience). And I bet a lot of them just excused themselves when stuff go too weird.
Galen and the few like him were/are, I believe the exceptions.
Galen didn't always succeed with the work of the ministry either. My wife took a pfal class he ran and never graduated. Something I'm thankful to him for (:
Nothing to forgive, Galen. You made an excellent point and it "smarted". I wasn't mad, I just wish I had been able to be as non-chalant about climbing the ladder or busting my butt for approval of the leaders instead of God.
I wasn't trying to be mean or make you feel like you were sounding 'holier than thou', that's why I put the smiley face on there. I apologize for making you feel bad. I didn't mean to. Please forgive ME.
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JustThinking
Uh...that would be me.
Thank you Paw!
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Belle
I wasn't around for POP, so thanks for sharing.
It seems the more I know about TWI, the more it seems that those "in the know" and "close to the fire" have always acted quicker to jump ship than those of us "on the field" and kept ignorant of the little man behind the curtain.
Now, how do you explain the Green*'s and the Moynih*ns and others who've been around forever continuing to sell the b.s. that they know they're pushing? Is it just for the $$$$?
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Ham
Good question! I think they have grown accustomed to eating so much shinola, that it actually started tasting good. Seems they paired up with the right group- some enjoy dishing it out, others enjoy eating it..
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Ham
"Give a man a can of shinola to eat, he will probably stay hungry. Teach a man how to sell a can of shinola.." you get the picture..
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Biblefan Dave
Knew John Lynn. Trusted him. Didn't like the way some Corps people went through this very dramatic personality shift and started ranting and screaming all sorts of nonsense about him tearing down God's ministry. Got lots of info from JAL about the continuing, ongoing adultery, about what happened to John Schoenheit regarding the Adultery Paper, etc.
After 2/26/87 letter, went to the aforementioned "Limb Meeting", endured all the rantings and ravings, saw John calmly explain his actions, then made the decision that I could not continue to follow this organization.
If BOT's including LCM had apologized, made corrections to wrong doctrines, and seized adulterous affairs, I would have been more than happy to continue. No apology. No correction. More affairs. Obviously, right decision to leave.
My sympathy and heart goes out to all who stayed around after '87 and endured all that ridiculous stuff that went on.
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Hope R.
I think if it had been anyone but Geer presenting PoP, I might have listened. IMO, I thought he was a nut-job, still do. So I couldn't take anything he had written too seriously - and besides - it really didn't say much of anything, did it?
The first few years after PoP - Igotout and I looked into some of the "start-up" groups that were splitting off from TWI. We got tapes from Steve S*** in California; newsletters from JAL and others. All of them were trying to win us over to "their" side. We were still running a twig - and we'd put all the info we'd gotten from the spin-offs right on the table next to the Way Rag and Grapevines from TWI. We didn't really know what to do. All our friends were bailing - but we weren't ready to make that decision. Besides, where would we go to hear "the word"? (ugh).
At the time, TWI was still the largest and most organized group with the most material to offer, as well as events like Word in Business and the ROA. We decided to stick with TWI for those reasons, as well as a mis-guided sense of loyalty and all that Corps-Corps-Corps indoctrination.
After LCM came out of his "fog" and started going ape-sheet - we figured we'd just wait and see - thinking that it had to get better! I mentally gave it a year.
Then LCM released the Galatians tapes and I thought things were headed back in the right direction. Well, you know the rest.
In 1995, I had to go take the newest version of the Advanced Class in Rome City. I think it was probably the worst 10 days I'd had in TWI. Bunch of mindless twits cheering for a man screaming his head off on a video - others praising him - saying that they were proud that TWI "was no longer an open-door ministry".
That did it -
I got home - told hubby that when he was ready to leave - I'd be right behind him. It took 5 more years and Waydale to do it. The past 4 1/2 years have been amazing. I'm at the point now where I feel like TWI was the distant past instead of the recent past for me.
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skyrider
When CGeer headed off to Europe (1981), it quickly became evident that he was out for a POWER GRAB. From several sources, I heard that Bo Reahxxd and, later, Vince F. had constant dealings with CGeer's abrasiveness. From what I knew, by 1984......CGeer was well on his way to establishing HIS OWN OFFSHOOT MINISTRY. Wierwille's death came at "the perfect time" for CGeer's timeline to abandon twi's mother ship!!!
Therefore, when the passing of a patriarch was dumped on us at the 1986 corps week, I was NOT SURPRISED. Nor, was I inclined to follow CGeer's deception. About a week after this, I spent about an hour with Ricardo.....and he told me the background behind CGeer's statement that alluded to the trustees being murderers. CGeer's accusation was to incite rebellion and distrust of twi leadership. CGeer, who had spent years reading spy novels and biographies of great (and evil) men, was extremely cunning and manipulative.
With all of that said, I didn't trust CGeer. Period.
For me, it was really a choice of "keep moving with twi and wait & see" where this path leads. I certainly wasn't fully on lcm's bandwagon.....but I definitely was NOT going to join up with the CGeer outfits.
Long story short.......martindale seemed to get some momentum going by 1993, but then the "lcm-confidence" turned vicious. The homo purges.....the debt doctrine and deception....the witch hunts to sanctify the household.....and the ego-maniac style of leadership at hq. The worst was STILL COMING.
When lcm gave his revelation that all corps were to be full-time......THIS WAS A MAJOR CONTROL DEVICE. It radically changed the course of twi. From this blundering "revelation"....sprang ALL KINDS OF POLICIES & DOCTRINES. The time-management reports, the travel forms, the pet policy, the pregnancy policy, the gift moratorium, the cancelling of future ROAs (imo) and a host of others. You see.....once the corps were full-time, twi became the sole provider over what was a spiritual need. And, if the roa continued.....then, twi would have to PAY for all corps expenses, etc. It totally changed the dynamics of everything in twi!
Soon to follow, fanatical limb coordinators pushed these policies onto the field. One of the big instigators was Bob Moneyhands. These control policies were strictly to keep the abundant sharing FLOWING into hq.......these policies had little relevance to the believers on the field. Of course, martindale never stepped in and stopped it either.
For me, 1995 was the beginning of the end. Then, when the wap class was in the works.......everything was an attempt to "prop up the great one" namely lcm. Now, in retrospect....it's easy to see how lcm was grandstanding and racheting up the control all the while he (lcm) was deep in sin and lust. The man was HIDING BEHIND THE CURTAIN.
Everything that has happened since 1995, has clarified martindale's demise. He made his choices and he was finally found out.
It took me years to realize that HOWARD, DON, ROSALIE, DONNA, and many others were involved in this inner circle of deception and idolatry. But then, the MONEY was (and is) the central object of concern.
What a wake-up call.....to find all this in "a biblical ministry."
:D-->
And, many of the offshoots (from what I've heard) are pretty lame as well.
Thankful for FREEDOM and GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS.
skyrider
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GrouchoMarxJr
After I left twi in 1987, I took a "hiatus" for several years...One day I decided to check out JAL's group. The thing that bothered me most was their insistance that I be counted as "one of them". Simply because I attended a couple of their meetings, they assumed that I was ready to become a "member". They tried to network me into their "system" but I wouldn't give up my "autonomy" and refused to play their "organization game". It seems imperative to all these "splinter guys", that they recruit others into their organization...which of course, is their attempt to elevate themselves as so called leaders...afterall, if you want to be a "leader", you must find those willing to follow and the more followers you have, the greater the success of the "leader"...and that IS what it's all about...feeding their own distorted egos.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...As for Martindale...I was present at the ceremony when Veepee put the mantle around his neck...
The guy had a look on his face of total arrogance. A little smirk around the corners of his mouth indicated that he was no longer Wierwille's chief a$$kisser, but was now HE who's a$$ must be kissed...It poured out of him...You could almost hear him thinking how all the currying for favor was worth it, because he was now the top Kahoona! The decay of this rancid little cult was always there...Martindale simply brought it to the surface for all to see.
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Galen
Mrs. Wierwille, Martindale, Geer, Lynn, Dubofsky, the Georges, the Trustees, the Green*'s, the Moynih*ns, John Schoenheit, Bo Reahxxd, HOWARD, DON, ROSALIE, DONNA.
So many names, wow.
I was in from 1978 - 1997, my wife from 1976-1997. Neither one of us could name-drop so many names from TWI's upper crust. I did not know, who was screwing who, or who 'followed' who, or even who was a$$-ki$$ing who. From that list I have only met one of them, and that was in 2000.
It does seem to me that many people were deeply sucked into the inner workings of TWI [as if it were Harper Valley's PTA].
If so many who drinking from the trough of the Sunday Night Tapes each week, who was do word-studies and teaching each other from what we had learned?
If so many were so closely drawn to the 'trunk' of TWI's tree, who was left to minister to the Joe Beleivers out there?
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Oakspear
Weren't you that guy Galen?
;)-->
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Galen
Great Oak-
never mind.
It just seems that as long as I have been hanging around GS, everyone [most GS'ers] was at HQ, or sucking up to corporate-leadership, or at least knew all of the corporation's leadership and were following everything they did and said.
Was I the only one who ignored their stupidness and focused on those in my fellowship? I thought they were the ones in need of my help.
Was everyone else focused on the corporate-leadership, thinking that they could help the corporation?
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Belle
Yep, Galen. The rest of us should be as good as you.
;)-->
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My3Cents
Good observation. The way leadership during that time did not encourage people to just live godly lives and be part of a twig. They did not exault that kind of lifestyle. They exaulted the all out "dog soldier" we're here to MOVE the word. SO what tended to happen is to "be someone" in the organization meant you had to be on a leadership track.
This and the excessive demands of loyalty attracted people who had some emotional or psychological need. So it's no wonder that the folks at a place like Greasespot were mostly leaders who hung around at the top.
The more "normal" folk who just wanted to live a nice life and have it augmented by a nice bible study were not given much credence by many way corps or other leaders (at least while I was in this was my experience). And I bet a lot of them just excused themselves when stuff go too weird.
Galen and the few like him were/are, I believe the exceptions.
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Galen
Belle:
"Yep, Galen. The rest of us should be as good as you.
;)-->"
Please forgive me.
I did not mean to imply that.
I am a sinner.
I have issues.
I did not mean to imply that I was / am any better than anyone else.
:-)
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Jim
Galen didn't always succeed with the work of the ministry either. My wife took a pfal class he ran and never graduated. Something I'm thankful to him for (:
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excathedra
ha !
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Galen
Yes there were a few of those as well.
How is she doing?
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Jim
My best friend, my business partner and mother to my great kid. Couldn't ask for more.
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excathedra
galen, i don't think you and i are very different at all even though i went through the frikkin corps training
you lived on a submarine for a long time -- i can't relate
i lived close to the f'd up leadership -- you can't relate
but no matter how much you helped people, as I did, it's still a damn hurtful cult, in my humble opinion, okay ?
i think you're great, by the way
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Galen
excathedra:
". . . it's still a damn hurtful cult, in my humble opinion, okay ?"
Okay
"i think you're great, by the way"
You are pretty cool too, in my book.
:-)
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Oakspear
By the way Galen, I was just trying (apparently unsucessfully
:(-->) to be humorous; sorry about the fallout.
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Belle
Nothing to forgive, Galen. You made an excellent point and it "smarted". I wasn't mad, I just wish I had been able to be as non-chalant about climbing the ladder or busting my butt for approval of the leaders instead of God.
I wasn't trying to be mean or make you feel like you were sounding 'holier than thou', that's why I put the smiley face on there. I apologize for making you feel bad. I didn't mean to. Please forgive ME.
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Galen
:-)
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