Strange times, they were...I joined twi in 1975 and left in 1987. I left at the same time as JAL, Dubofsky, and others. After Veepee died in 1985, it was almost as if some kind of hypnotic spell was broken. I started to think for myself again. I didn't like Martindale and I didn't trust him. I kept a critical eye on him and expressed my reservations about him to others. Of course I was branded as a troublemaker. When Martindale demanded that every twig coordinator report weekly as to who was faithful and who wasn't...that was the final straw for me. He was dead wrong and it was easy to show it in the bible...The only problem was that all the clergy and corps around me didn't seem to care that Martindale was "off the word"...I'll never forget the looks on their faces when I stood up at a leaders meeting and told them all what I thought...and then walked out...never looked back...never felt bad about it...a very short time after my departure, it fell apart at the seams.
Uncle Hairy is right. When vpw died, the "spell" was broken for a lot of us. POP only served to prove us right in our exodus.
I did go to a few fellowship meetings after it all came down, but the vitality was never there, and I had heard too many stories by that time to be able to reconcile what vpw taught, with what was happening.
Little did I know (at that time), that I was just seeing the tip of the iceberg, so it pleases me today, that I never stuck around. after that.
The few times I did try to go back (to the local fellowship), I was made to feel MOST unwelcome. Wish I knew where they are today -- I'd look em up, and say "Thanks!".
I basically gave him the benefit of any doubt. Before 1982 Martindale came off to me as being credible. The teaching on 'Steven: both guns blazing' (1978) and 'Believing images of victory' (1981) seemed to cement him as the first in line to replace VPW. Other than LCM, it would either be Walter Cummins or Vince Finnegan.
After LCM became president, he seemed to get rougher and rougher. Took himself way too seriously. VP had a better support system; he didn't have to scream from the lecturn; he had others do that for him (including Martindale). The worst example of VP screaming (I never went to a corps night) that comes to my mind is 'The way of life and death' (1976). Although that teaching did cause people to leave the ministry, it revealed that VP wasn't a screamer. He usually paced himself and varied his tone of voice well.
LCM failed to make the transformation from screamer to soother. He was abbrasive, he spoke (screamed) in a monotone, and was actually easy to screen out, for me, anyway. But he was the recognized MOG. His sense of humor could be refreshing at times. His logic made it easy to not take the world's agendas seriously. Who else would dare accuse Santa's helpers of trying to make you feel guilty just because you're healthy and prosperous? He does, in fact, have charisma.
In retrospect, I went through the motions more with LCM than with VP, but I gave him the benefit of every doubt. If I had it to do over, I'd have left in '89 instead of '94.
Force of habit, maybe? We had friends who stayed and friends who left. There were meetings to listen to tapes by JAL describing the goings on at HQ, and we went to a meeting and it sounded like sour grapes to us.
I think for us it also depended who you listened/talked to. A friend of mine talked to Ralph D. for 3 hours or so on the phone and that helped them decide to leave. We stayed because we had NO idea that what either of these people (Ralph or JAL)could be true.
quote:I basically gave him the benefit of any doubt.
Me too, Johniam. Additionally, I still had family members standing with TWI at the time, I'm sure that had some pull as well. But like you, had I known what I do now, in all probability the departing would have been earlier.
1974 - 2000. Some of us "old timers" thought we could affect change within and really wanted to help others. We kept thinking that good changes were right around the corner. Kind of like a bad stock you keep holding on its way down.
Maybe the WAP Class will be awesome.
Maybe after a while he will come to his senses and allow people to come back with no restrictions or scrutiny.
Maybe new graduating Corps will be better
Once he finishes "cleaning out the household" there will be good times again.
Once we begin to see thousands of new people coming in to a new class and a new ministry (Way Ministry II as LCM termed it) we will see revival and fun times again.
None of these things happened. Instead we witnessed continued deterioration and the harmful effects of legalism, seeds of which were planted years before. LCM just watered and fertilized it.
We also watched bad decision upon bad decision. We actually began to think that LCM was purposely destroying things without really knowing what he was doing. He would listen to no one. Typical self-destructive behavioral habits. The man needed serious psychological help in my opinion. But his leaders didn't have the guts to do anything about it. (Well, some did. Thanks, Paul and Fern.)
In some ways I believe LCM became a victim too, even though some may not agree. Maybe one day he will talk about it but I seriously doubt it.
I left about 9-8 months after the POP was first read. Right after the clergy were called to new knoxville to hear geer spew.
Looking back I think one of the reasons I stayed so long was that at an non-conscious level I knew leaving would mean rebuilding my whole life. I had no friends outside the way, where I was living, what I was doing for work, and my indentity as a succesful person were so tied up in it, I wasn't ready to face rebuilding all that. That kept me from admiting to myself what I really saw going on.
Part of the reason I could leave when I did was that I had friends to bounce this off and they were of a similar mind. I realized I wasn't alone.
I think for many people who go through something like this the outward reasons are only part of the story. You have to be inwardly ready to deal with the outward stuff or you won't change. I think that's why many people who are still in are where they are. Nothing that anyone says or proves or anything that happens in court or in the paper will change their mind if they are not ready to come to grips with that that means for them personally.
We left pretty much after the POP came across our path..then a brief meeting with Ralph down in Indy with JAL pretty much convinced us..especially doctrinally, that things were'nt where we anted them to be..the sexual improprieties weren't THAT big of issue to us...but for me personally...the Law of Believing (theory) was my big "hitter" as I saw so many of our peoples lives just in total condemnation, for their inability to "believe God for _________. (you name it)" We quickly discovered that "you have NO friends when it comes to the Word" literally...as our entire friendship base was TWI....but in time people who were good, inquiring people in the area...did come back to us friendship wise..Running a twig really put on on the bubble & personally, I was AMAZED at how quickly we were asked to leave..after simply sharing the Romans l3 stuff from Ralph...LOL JJ
I heard the POP in '86. I simply expected the Trustees and other leaders to work everything out and get things back on the right track.
I wasn't until '87, after receiving the 2/26/87 letter that John Lynn circulated that I started to question my involvement. Then I went to a limb meeting where there was a lot of shouting being done by Way Corps directed toward John Lynn. Most of the shouting made no sense whatsoever. I was under the impression that the problems in TWI were a result of the Trustees actions and policies, not John Lynn's and the others who prepared that letter.
The limb meeting was what prompted me to leave TWI. John Lynn happened to be the DC limb leader that year.
After POP, I had a skeptical attitude toward Martindale. The limb meeting was the last straw. If the Trustees did not want to assure the accuracy of their teachings and if they did not want to abstain from sinful practicies and if they did not to treat my fellow believers properly, then I could not in all good conscience continue to associate with TWI.
We were in rez when POP was read. We figured they would get their stuff together and we would hear all about it at corps week. When that didn't happen and they just went on with ROA like nothing happened we were sick to our stomachs and stunned, but not ready to give up yet. After we heard about the insanity that went on at the November clergy meeting we decided to leave.
We didn't tell "our peeps" until three days after Christmas '86 (like we were divorcing parents not wanting to spoil Christmas for the kids). We were serious then but now it seems really funny to me.
It was so scary to leave friends and that comfortable insanity behind, and the rebuilding process of our lives has not been easy, but MY GOD, it's been worth it.
I think Igotout has great points. I also think My3cents hits the nail on the head as to what motivates someone to leave. I was already on the fringes when POP was read.
I had been in since '70, also 7th corps with Igotout. As to what My3cents says, I left staff in '84 - it was an unconscious thing - little things had built up and subconsciously, I was ready to go. Once I had decided in my heart I was ready to leave H.Q. (not TWI yet, just HQ) - an immediate door opened up, so to speak, so I made a pretty much spontaneous, drastic decision in the space of a day. This was in August before new corps assignments. I left H.Q. for the field when it was time for assignment change. In fact I had already been assigned somewhere else, and I told them I would not accept where they wanted to assign me (a staff position) and this is where I was going on the field, whether they liked it or not. So, they assigned me to where I was going to go with the assignment, run a twig, which I did.
I still had believers in my new area on the field where I went, plenty of corps I knew there, even ran a twig for a year and won the contest in signing the most people up to go WOW in my area, but, my head wasnt' really there by '86. I hung on for another year after POP, but by then the corps in my area were all going after VF and CG. I knew CG was a snake. The CG crew took pretty much everyone with them - all the local and statewide believers. I was really the only one who did not follow - at least in my neck of the woods.
I had also moved several times in that area so I didn't get the LCM loyalty letter, I think they lost track of me, I just kind of drifted away. By then I had made a lot of new friends. So I guess it was good having believers around while I was making the transition totally out of the Way.
I guess my situation was a bit different - Everyone went after CG and there were no LCM loyalists left in my area - so I was never M&Aed. But I was M&Aed by the CG people, go figure. By that time I had enough of a "natural man" friend base I was able to totally walk away.
I see how God worked with me in steps: 1. Away from H.Q.; 2. By being in a huge metropolitan area where I had grown up, I was now away from TWI's influences; 3. I was far enough away to start looking at TWI clearly and start realizing I was enjoying my life more by being away from it; 4. POP - I believe that was a door God opened for our generation to leave without condemnation from the rest of our corps "peers." We were all old enough and wise enough by then to go. I realized, some young corps people I tried to talk to were very much the way I was in my early 20s - they would not hear and leave.
I think God opened up a second door for thier generation with the Alan lawsuit. By then they were old enough and left.
I really think POP and the Alan suit were the two big doors to get people out from two different generations.
My hubby and I came to twi in the early 80s, in the midst of all the “Isn’t Martindale Great?” hoopla. We had no prior reference point, and all we saw was twi’s public face that said VPW loved and supported LCM. We had no reason to think differently.
When the crap hit hard in the mid-late 80s, I went to a meeting held by R* D*b*sk*. A lot of what he said made sense but he was the rudest, most obnoxious, sarcastic man I’d met in a long time and I was unimpressed. (looking back I can see that he was simply venting from all the crap he’d put up with for so long) I was also married to a koolade-drinker, so there was no considering leaving. No, instead we went into the way corps to support our ministry! Like John said, we thought we could help from the inside out.
At HQ I saw a Craig I had never seen before… he was tired, out of shape; clearly “beat up” mentally and emotionally. He would often meet with us and just “talk” and in my young and na? eyes, it put a very human face on the man. It caused me to give him far more support and compassion than he had a right to, considering he’d been boffing everything he could get his hands on, and kicking people out who stood up to him.
While in residence I saw many of my elder corps lie, cheat and break the rules, simply to thumb their nose at the current leadership. Again, their behavior turned me off from anything reasonable they might have been saying.
Through our training, we kept strictly to the basics of twi doctrine. It was bland, boring, and “afraid”. But at the end of our final year, we started to see Craig stand up for himself. He told Geer to take a hike. He told the staff to make a decision about what they stood for. He seemed to shake off his “funk” and started teaching “hot” Bible again. We all thought he was going to fix the problems and start fresh. (boy, were we wrong)
Only as he went through one purge after another, as our local leadership set us up in bad situations and then left us holding the bag and looking like bad-guys to our believers, as the rules got more and more confining to the point of being just ridiculous, did I start to wake up and realize that this outfit had become a hideous monster, and start considering how to make my escape. And yet, out of habit, and because of my marriage, it still took the Allen lawsuit for me to finally say, “Enough is enough” and get out.
It's one thing to "know" somebody just from seeing them so often on stage, teaching. That's how most wayfers knew Martindale. It's like "knowing" a movie star or famous athlete...in other words, you don't REALLY know them. You only see their public image and persona.
It's quite another thing to "know" somebody on a personal basis, one on one. To spend some time with them and see how they are when they are away from the crowds.
I had the opprotunity to get to know Martindale, one on one. It was at that time that I decided, immediately, that I did not like the man and did not trust him. The main feeling that I got from Martindale was that he didn't really give a rat's a$$ about anybody but himself. He was condescending, patronizing, and insincere. He also knew how to kiss Wierwille's a$$ better than anybody else and that was instrumental in his becoming prez...and one thing I've learned about a$$kissers...Anybody who kissed a$$ to get to the top, always surrounds himself with other a$$kissers...I think that about sums up Martindale's leadership.
Anybody who kissed a$$ to get to the top, always surrounds himself with other a$$kissers...I think that about sums up Martindale's leadership.
I agree and would add one thing. Some people who do this know they are doing it and know what's going on. I think wierwille probably knew at some level (but he liked it so he didn't stop it.) Martindale was stupid.
I don't think he even knew what games he or anyone else was playing. He just found a verse or a quote from the old man that felt good and hung on to it for dear life as his explanation.
Hello Mr. 123. I think after POP people were pretty much isolated everywhere. The few corpses that I knew that left pretty much kept their mouths shut about what they knew and heard, at least to the regular Joe believer. We just never heard from them again.
We lived out in the boonies, and we weren't corps. We heard lots of conflicting things, some outrageous things(we heard about VPW's girls but thought that was a firey dart...)
We called friends in other areas, some much worse than ours. We heard about leaders stealing the ABS for themselves instead of sending it to HQ.
We were shocked and confused. So when some non flashy corps stuck with TWI in our area, we did, too.
It seemed like clearly the right choice at the time.
My sentiments exactly. I left for 6 yrs. 84-90. I went back not knowing about the fog days. when ever someone brought certain things up in my prescense they would hush up. alot of things were hidden from me. I never knew who CG was till I left. Itook PFAl in 75 and knew the Ministry in its growth stage. things did seem somewhat different..............if I would of>>>>>>>known the truth.
I left twi for a short time, 1990 to 1991. I was involved in a Geerite fellowship during that time. It was lame. I bought and ate the garbage that VP had the "ONLY" doctrine, so I went back to twi and followed Martinpuke. At that time, they were showing the video of VP annointing and passing the mantle to Martinpuke. I cried the first time I saw that after coming back to twi. I now know that was because of idolatry of men.
After Martinpuke starting foaming at the mouth in 1993, I just though he was cleaning the household and making the ministry better.
When I got on staff, I saw he was completely insane. It was just hard to leave after that. My feet were in concrete, and it took me a few more years to get the concrete chipped off so I could walk away.
If there's anything I learned, that would be that if someone is so hard and critical of people and only want to focus on others' bads, they need to take a hard look at their own life. There will be major ghost and cobwebs in their own closet. The beam in Martinpuke's eye was so damn big that he couldn't see ..... I think the current prez is that way too. She is just sly. They don't call her Fox for nothing.
I'm glad to say that I didn't stay to follow LCM. I was in the 15th corps when V.P died and when POP came out, it was my final year. At that time LCM was busy with dancing and acting out the "Role of a Believer"(Personally I think his dance with The Deobolos was a metaphorical prelude on a sub-conscience level believing he was Jesus Christ incarnate.) His arrogance scared me and "I'm meek, praise My holy name" spoke louder then whatever he taught.
I had signed up for a delayed entry program to go on active duty in the military. I left in Oct. after graduation. Thank God for that decision cause it forced me out of TWI and into a grow up and think for yourself mode. I had no contact or influence for 6mo. Just enough time to alter my thinking patterns and to think O.D green.
I am sad for those who suffered under his rule. After the POP and my Way Corpes experiance, recovery from TWI has been a long process. I can't amagin having to recover from LCM and his tyranny. Godbless those that have fought to get control of their lives and are able to live authentically without shame or guilt. Namaste
Let me see; 1983 - 1987 we were in California running twigs. Never heard about POP. Only time we had interface with Corpse was during the annual limb recruitment meeting.
We purchased and owned a 3 family property, during this time period. We had fellowship in our home and rented 2 other homes out to other believers. I don’t really know for sure if any corpse person actually put 2 and 2 together to realize that we had bought the property with a mortgage. We were never confronted on that issue. But again being faithful twig coordinators [TC] rarely ever saw corpse. We were kind of focused on running PFAL classes and tending the needs of those in our fellowship. It was during this period of time that we often had huge terrible issues just getting copies of PFAL to run. There seemed to be a shortage of good copies of cassette tapes and shortages of the flip-charts. When we did get the video [bonnie had gotten into TWI in 1976, and I in 1978] neither of us had ever seen the video previously. Since the ‘local’ branch would routinely give us grief over rotating each video tape [you can have segment 4, but it needs to run up to Sacramento the next day, and then you will need to get segment 5 from Barstow and take it to San Jose when you are done with it. Etc] It seemed that most TCs and BCs at the time were becoming very controlling and before they handed over the next tape they wanted to know, why was a mere ‘Joe Beleiver’ handling such a tape. It was becoming a popular idea that only corpse should be able to run PFAL classes, and how dare I run a twig, and where was my corpse-overseer. A couple of times I had to drop off at the Limb office to either pick up or drop off tapes. Which was when I was told to just copy them and hold onto the copies. Since I was legitimately running the PFAL class, there was no need to be ‘proving’ myself to every other TC or BC just to borrow the next segment. I was also told that it was a good idea to just store them away for the future as PFAL would become ever more scarce.
We were stationed in Scotland from 1987 – 1990, where we again bought an apartment building. Ran twig out of our home and rented apartments to believers. We attended Gartmore House a number of times. The people there were friendly, but the teachings were not on a ‘beginner’ level. Each time we took people to a Sunday Service at Gartmore, we spent two days explaining what happened. It was fairly wearing on us. When we did get ready to run PFAL we asked them for it. But were told that we were not ‘European” believers and we would have to run under New Knoxville, as “Country Coordinators: for Americans living in Scotland”. HQ was not obliging to send us PFAL either, and referred us to the ‘Military Outreach dude’ [Paul Norcross]. Finally we were able to get ‘approval’ to run PFAL, but the tapes had to be supplied to us via Gartmore. We were told that PFAL was coming and Chris Kent would deliver it to us. So we scheduled the class, and he showed up but he was empty handed. He was like inspecting our fellowship and he sat in on a dinner with us. The following week he came again and that time he delivered their copy of PFAL to our twig. [During all this time, we did hold our own copy of PFAL, but we were concerned about letting anyone know that we had been told to maintain a copy of it]. While living in Scotland we were receiving the weekly Gartmore tapes.
In 1991 we returned stateside, and bought another apartment building, started a twig in it, in Connecticut. I don’t recall anyone saying anything about us buying apartment buildings to live in, or to rent to other believers. There were 2 twigs on our end of the state and Limb was on the other end, so it was convenient to never see them. The LC did put pressure on us to attend TC meetings each month. So we went a few times. Our neighboring TC was corpse and they filled us in on much of what had been happening. We were sent a corpse-couple who had been put on ‘suspended’ status. But being the TC over them was horrible, and they made life miserable. The LC at the time was Wilson Whitehead, he was pretty cool and even allowed us to go through everything he had in his bookstore library. We copied his “how to perform a wedding” class, among other things. And he encouraged us to remain as independent as possible. I don’t think that we ever did start getting the SNT tapes, since returning stateside in 1991. And I know that we never got the Way magazine, as I was still waiting for my complimentary subscription to start from when I took PFAL in 1979.
In 1993, we got a different set of LCs who were very much marching a different tune, and wanted to control things. But again they did not have the time to travel to our end of the state, so we saw them rarely. Finally they wigged out over the fact that I had been performing weddings’ both within the fellowship and at work. We were ‘thrown out’, about the same time that I had orders in hand to transfer.
I was then stationed on the USS Pulaski, where I was appointed the Ship’s Lay-Leader [in charge of all Protestant Services]. So I ran PFAL on-board [and just mailed the paperwork to HQ] as we moved to Washington State, where we again bought more property. I was stationed onboard the USS Alaska, where I was made their Protestant Lay-Leader and we ran a Twig out of the home I bought there. We stayed out of the path of most Corpse, ran our twig and PFAL classes until we were ‘thrown out’ again in 1996. This time, we were thrown out because we owned books written by Cummins, and one by Lynn; and we refused to burn those books. Mosquedo probably did not like us performing weddings, but at least he did not say anything about it.
We were ousted purely because we refused to burn books. During that time, we did many more weddings for TWI believers as well as for sailors who attended my services onboard the sub.
In 1997 I was stationed overseas again [italy] where we finally did things without contacting HQ at all. And as us 2001, we returned stateside and setup a twig here in Connecticut again.
Generally we attended those annoying annual Limb Meetings [if I was available], and sometimes a TC meeting, but I found that the more corpse got to know you, the more ugly things became.
“I think after POP people were pretty much isolated everywhere. The few corpses that I knew that left pretty much kept their mouths shut about what they knew and heard, at least to the regular Joe believer. We just never heard from them again.”
I thought the POP was idiotic and a lie, so I stayed with Martindale. I left because of the mass legalism and stupidity I saw in the second year of Corps. Later, I learned LCM was frothing at the mounth and finally figured the source of the trouble was Martindale.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Strange times, they were...I joined twi in 1975 and left in 1987. I left at the same time as JAL, Dubofsky, and others. After Veepee died in 1985, it was almost as if some kind of hypnotic spell was broken. I started to think for myself again. I didn't like Martindale and I didn't trust him. I kept a critical eye on him and expressed my reservations about him to others. Of course I was branded as a troublemaker. When Martindale demanded that every twig coordinator report weekly as to who was faithful and who wasn't...that was the final straw for me. He was dead wrong and it was easy to show it in the bible...The only problem was that all the clergy and corps around me didn't seem to care that Martindale was "off the word"...I'll never forget the looks on their faces when I stood up at a leaders meeting and told them all what I thought...and then walked out...never looked back...never felt bad about it...a very short time after my departure, it fell apart at the seams.
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dmiller
Uncle Hairy is right. When vpw died, the "spell" was broken for a lot of us. POP only served to prove us right in our exodus.
I did go to a few fellowship meetings after it all came down, but the vitality was never there, and I had heard too many stories by that time to be able to reconcile what vpw taught, with what was happening.
Little did I know (at that time), that I was just seeing the tip of the iceberg, so it pleases me today, that I never stuck around. after that.
The few times I did try to go back (to the local fellowship), I was made to feel MOST unwelcome. Wish I knew where they are today -- I'd look em up, and say "Thanks!".
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johniam
I basically gave him the benefit of any doubt. Before 1982 Martindale came off to me as being credible. The teaching on 'Steven: both guns blazing' (1978) and 'Believing images of victory' (1981) seemed to cement him as the first in line to replace VPW. Other than LCM, it would either be Walter Cummins or Vince Finnegan.
After LCM became president, he seemed to get rougher and rougher. Took himself way too seriously. VP had a better support system; he didn't have to scream from the lecturn; he had others do that for him (including Martindale). The worst example of VP screaming (I never went to a corps night) that comes to my mind is 'The way of life and death' (1976). Although that teaching did cause people to leave the ministry, it revealed that VP wasn't a screamer. He usually paced himself and varied his tone of voice well.
LCM failed to make the transformation from screamer to soother. He was abbrasive, he spoke (screamed) in a monotone, and was actually easy to screen out, for me, anyway. But he was the recognized MOG. His sense of humor could be refreshing at times. His logic made it easy to not take the world's agendas seriously. Who else would dare accuse Santa's helpers of trying to make you feel guilty just because you're healthy and prosperous? He does, in fact, have charisma.
In retrospect, I went through the motions more with LCM than with VP, but I gave him the benefit of every doubt. If I had it to do over, I'd have left in '89 instead of '94.
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Watered Garden
Force of habit, maybe? We had friends who stayed and friends who left. There were meetings to listen to tapes by JAL describing the goings on at HQ, and we went to a meeting and it sounded like sour grapes to us.
I think for us it also depended who you listened/talked to. A friend of mine talked to Ralph D. for 3 hours or so on the phone and that helped them decide to leave. We stayed because we had NO idea that what either of these people (Ralph or JAL)could be true.
Either way, it was a troubled time for many.
May God bless us every one.
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oldiesman
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igotout
1974 - 2000. Some of us "old timers" thought we could affect change within and really wanted to help others. We kept thinking that good changes were right around the corner. Kind of like a bad stock you keep holding on its way down.
Maybe the WAP Class will be awesome.
Maybe after a while he will come to his senses and allow people to come back with no restrictions or scrutiny.
Maybe new graduating Corps will be better
Once he finishes "cleaning out the household" there will be good times again.
Once we begin to see thousands of new people coming in to a new class and a new ministry (Way Ministry II as LCM termed it) we will see revival and fun times again.
None of these things happened. Instead we witnessed continued deterioration and the harmful effects of legalism, seeds of which were planted years before. LCM just watered and fertilized it.
We also watched bad decision upon bad decision. We actually began to think that LCM was purposely destroying things without really knowing what he was doing. He would listen to no one. Typical self-destructive behavioral habits. The man needed serious psychological help in my opinion. But his leaders didn't have the guts to do anything about it. (Well, some did. Thanks, Paul and Fern.)
In some ways I believe LCM became a victim too, even though some may not agree. Maybe one day he will talk about it but I seriously doubt it.
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My3Cents
I left about 9-8 months after the POP was first read. Right after the clergy were called to new knoxville to hear geer spew.
Looking back I think one of the reasons I stayed so long was that at an non-conscious level I knew leaving would mean rebuilding my whole life. I had no friends outside the way, where I was living, what I was doing for work, and my indentity as a succesful person were so tied up in it, I wasn't ready to face rebuilding all that. That kept me from admiting to myself what I really saw going on.
Part of the reason I could leave when I did was that I had friends to bounce this off and they were of a similar mind. I realized I wasn't alone.
I think for many people who go through something like this the outward reasons are only part of the story. You have to be inwardly ready to deal with the outward stuff or you won't change. I think that's why many people who are still in are where they are. Nothing that anyone says or proves or anything that happens in court or in the paper will change their mind if they are not ready to come to grips with that that means for them personally.
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Second James
We left pretty much after the POP came across our path..then a brief meeting with Ralph down in Indy with JAL pretty much convinced us..especially doctrinally, that things were'nt where we anted them to be..the sexual improprieties weren't THAT big of issue to us...but for me personally...the Law of Believing (theory) was my big "hitter" as I saw so many of our peoples lives just in total condemnation, for their inability to "believe God for _________. (you name it)" We quickly discovered that "you have NO friends when it comes to the Word" literally...as our entire friendship base was TWI....but in time people who were good, inquiring people in the area...did come back to us friendship wise..Running a twig really put on on the bubble & personally, I was AMAZED at how quickly we were asked to leave..after simply sharing the Romans l3 stuff from Ralph...LOL JJ
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Biblefan Dave
I heard the POP in '86. I simply expected the Trustees and other leaders to work everything out and get things back on the right track.
I wasn't until '87, after receiving the 2/26/87 letter that John Lynn circulated that I started to question my involvement. Then I went to a limb meeting where there was a lot of shouting being done by Way Corps directed toward John Lynn. Most of the shouting made no sense whatsoever. I was under the impression that the problems in TWI were a result of the Trustees actions and policies, not John Lynn's and the others who prepared that letter.
The limb meeting was what prompted me to leave TWI. John Lynn happened to be the DC limb leader that year.
After POP, I had a skeptical attitude toward Martindale. The limb meeting was the last straw. If the Trustees did not want to assure the accuracy of their teachings and if they did not want to abstain from sinful practicies and if they did not to treat my fellow believers properly, then I could not in all good conscience continue to associate with TWI.
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tonto
We were in rez when POP was read. We figured they would get their stuff together and we would hear all about it at corps week. When that didn't happen and they just went on with ROA like nothing happened we were sick to our stomachs and stunned, but not ready to give up yet. After we heard about the insanity that went on at the November clergy meeting we decided to leave.
We didn't tell "our peeps" until three days after Christmas '86 (like we were divorcing parents not wanting to spoil Christmas for the kids). We were serious then but now it seems really funny to me.
It was so scary to leave friends and that comfortable insanity behind, and the rebuilding process of our lives has not been easy, but MY GOD, it's been worth it.
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Sunesis
I think Igotout has great points. I also think My3cents hits the nail on the head as to what motivates someone to leave. I was already on the fringes when POP was read.
I had been in since '70, also 7th corps with Igotout. As to what My3cents says, I left staff in '84 - it was an unconscious thing - little things had built up and subconsciously, I was ready to go. Once I had decided in my heart I was ready to leave H.Q. (not TWI yet, just HQ) - an immediate door opened up, so to speak, so I made a pretty much spontaneous, drastic decision in the space of a day. This was in August before new corps assignments. I left H.Q. for the field when it was time for assignment change. In fact I had already been assigned somewhere else, and I told them I would not accept where they wanted to assign me (a staff position) and this is where I was going on the field, whether they liked it or not. So, they assigned me to where I was going to go with the assignment, run a twig, which I did.
I still had believers in my new area on the field where I went, plenty of corps I knew there, even ran a twig for a year and won the contest in signing the most people up to go WOW in my area, but, my head wasnt' really there by '86. I hung on for another year after POP, but by then the corps in my area were all going after VF and CG. I knew CG was a snake. The CG crew took pretty much everyone with them - all the local and statewide believers. I was really the only one who did not follow - at least in my neck of the woods.
I had also moved several times in that area so I didn't get the LCM loyalty letter, I think they lost track of me, I just kind of drifted away. By then I had made a lot of new friends. So I guess it was good having believers around while I was making the transition totally out of the Way.
I guess my situation was a bit different - Everyone went after CG and there were no LCM loyalists left in my area - so I was never M&Aed. But I was M&Aed by the CG people, go figure. By that time I had enough of a "natural man" friend base I was able to totally walk away.
I see how God worked with me in steps: 1. Away from H.Q.; 2. By being in a huge metropolitan area where I had grown up, I was now away from TWI's influences; 3. I was far enough away to start looking at TWI clearly and start realizing I was enjoying my life more by being away from it; 4. POP - I believe that was a door God opened for our generation to leave without condemnation from the rest of our corps "peers." We were all old enough and wise enough by then to go. I realized, some young corps people I tried to talk to were very much the way I was in my early 20s - they would not hear and leave.
I think God opened up a second door for thier generation with the Alan lawsuit. By then they were old enough and left.
I really think POP and the Alan suit were the two big doors to get people out from two different generations.
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TheHighWay
My hubby and I came to twi in the early 80s, in the midst of all the “Isn’t Martindale Great?” hoopla. We had no prior reference point, and all we saw was twi’s public face that said VPW loved and supported LCM. We had no reason to think differently.
When the crap hit hard in the mid-late 80s, I went to a meeting held by R* D*b*sk*. A lot of what he said made sense but he was the rudest, most obnoxious, sarcastic man I’d met in a long time and I was unimpressed. (looking back I can see that he was simply venting from all the crap he’d put up with for so long) I was also married to a koolade-drinker, so there was no considering leaving. No, instead we went into the way corps to support our ministry! Like John said, we thought we could help from the inside out.
At HQ I saw a Craig I had never seen before… he was tired, out of shape; clearly “beat up” mentally and emotionally. He would often meet with us and just “talk” and in my young and na? eyes, it put a very human face on the man. It caused me to give him far more support and compassion than he had a right to, considering he’d been boffing everything he could get his hands on, and kicking people out who stood up to him.
While in residence I saw many of my elder corps lie, cheat and break the rules, simply to thumb their nose at the current leadership. Again, their behavior turned me off from anything reasonable they might have been saying.
Through our training, we kept strictly to the basics of twi doctrine. It was bland, boring, and “afraid”. But at the end of our final year, we started to see Craig stand up for himself. He told Geer to take a hike. He told the staff to make a decision about what they stood for. He seemed to shake off his “funk” and started teaching “hot” Bible again. We all thought he was going to fix the problems and start fresh. (boy, were we wrong)
Only as he went through one purge after another, as our local leadership set us up in bad situations and then left us holding the bag and looking like bad-guys to our believers, as the rules got more and more confining to the point of being just ridiculous, did I start to wake up and realize that this outfit had become a hideous monster, and start considering how to make my escape. And yet, out of habit, and because of my marriage, it still took the Allen lawsuit for me to finally say, “Enough is enough” and get out.
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GrouchoMarxJr
It's one thing to "know" somebody just from seeing them so often on stage, teaching. That's how most wayfers knew Martindale. It's like "knowing" a movie star or famous athlete...in other words, you don't REALLY know them. You only see their public image and persona.
It's quite another thing to "know" somebody on a personal basis, one on one. To spend some time with them and see how they are when they are away from the crowds.
I had the opprotunity to get to know Martindale, one on one. It was at that time that I decided, immediately, that I did not like the man and did not trust him. The main feeling that I got from Martindale was that he didn't really give a rat's a$$ about anybody but himself. He was condescending, patronizing, and insincere. He also knew how to kiss Wierwille's a$$ better than anybody else and that was instrumental in his becoming prez...and one thing I've learned about a$$kissers...Anybody who kissed a$$ to get to the top, always surrounds himself with other a$$kissers...I think that about sums up Martindale's leadership.
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My3Cents
I agree and would add one thing. Some people who do this know they are doing it and know what's going on. I think wierwille probably knew at some level (but he liked it so he didn't stop it.) Martindale was stupid.
I don't think he even knew what games he or anyone else was playing. He just found a verse or a quote from the old man that felt good and hung on to it for dear life as his explanation.
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frank123lol
After pop,since we were isolated where we are,
we thought it was crap so we stayed.A year or so goes by we get new leadership...
He wanted total control I said no where the hell were you when we needed you? S o began the
slow decent where I got fed up and quit.
There are some truths in pop gr+++ said loy
would go off the deep end.......
was it revelation? no he just knew loy.
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Ham
Hello Mr. 123. I think after POP people were pretty much isolated everywhere. The few corpses that I knew that left pretty much kept their mouths shut about what they knew and heard, at least to the regular Joe believer. We just never heard from them again.
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Ham
Funny thing is, Ch***** was probably the best they had to send..
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Bramble
We lived out in the boonies, and we weren't corps. We heard lots of conflicting things, some outrageous things(we heard about VPW's girls but thought that was a firey dart...)
We called friends in other areas, some much worse than ours. We heard about leaders stealing the ABS for themselves instead of sending it to HQ.
We were shocked and confused. So when some non flashy corps stuck with TWI in our area, we did, too.
It seemed like clearly the right choice at the time.
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likeaneagle
Oakspear-
My sentiments exactly. I left for 6 yrs. 84-90. I went back not knowing about the fog days. when ever someone brought certain things up in my prescense they would hush up. alot of things were hidden from me. I never knew who CG was till I left. Itook PFAl in 75 and knew the Ministry in its growth stage. things did seem somewhat different..............if I would of>>>>>>>known the truth.
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Nottawayfer
I left twi for a short time, 1990 to 1991. I was involved in a Geerite fellowship during that time. It was lame. I bought and ate the garbage that VP had the "ONLY" doctrine, so I went back to twi and followed Martinpuke. At that time, they were showing the video of VP annointing and passing the mantle to Martinpuke. I cried the first time I saw that after coming back to twi. I now know that was because of idolatry of men.
After Martinpuke starting foaming at the mouth in 1993, I just though he was cleaning the household and making the ministry better.
When I got on staff, I saw he was completely insane. It was just hard to leave after that. My feet were in concrete, and it took me a few more years to get the concrete chipped off so I could walk away.
If there's anything I learned, that would be that if someone is so hard and critical of people and only want to focus on others' bads, they need to take a hard look at their own life. There will be major ghost and cobwebs in their own closet. The beam in Martinpuke's eye was so damn big that he couldn't see ..... I think the current prez is that way too. She is just sly. They don't call her Fox for nothing.
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imbus
I'm glad to say that I didn't stay to follow LCM. I was in the 15th corps when V.P died and when POP came out, it was my final year. At that time LCM was busy with dancing and acting out the "Role of a Believer"(Personally I think his dance with The Deobolos was a metaphorical prelude on a sub-conscience level believing he was Jesus Christ incarnate.) His arrogance scared me and "I'm meek, praise My holy name" spoke louder then whatever he taught.
I had signed up for a delayed entry program to go on active duty in the military. I left in Oct. after graduation. Thank God for that decision cause it forced me out of TWI and into a grow up and think for yourself mode. I had no contact or influence for 6mo. Just enough time to alter my thinking patterns and to think O.D green.
I am sad for those who suffered under his rule. After the POP and my Way Corpes experiance, recovery from TWI has been a long process. I can't amagin having to recover from LCM and his tyranny. Godbless those that have fought to get control of their lives and are able to live authentically without shame or guilt. Namaste
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excathedra
good for you imbus
and it took as long or whatever measure for some to get over shame and guilt from veepee's reign
respectfully and lovingly,
ex
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Galen
Let me see; 1983 - 1987 we were in California running twigs. Never heard about POP. Only time we had interface with Corpse was during the annual limb recruitment meeting.
We purchased and owned a 3 family property, during this time period. We had fellowship in our home and rented 2 other homes out to other believers. I don’t really know for sure if any corpse person actually put 2 and 2 together to realize that we had bought the property with a mortgage. We were never confronted on that issue. But again being faithful twig coordinators [TC] rarely ever saw corpse. We were kind of focused on running PFAL classes and tending the needs of those in our fellowship. It was during this period of time that we often had huge terrible issues just getting copies of PFAL to run. There seemed to be a shortage of good copies of cassette tapes and shortages of the flip-charts. When we did get the video [bonnie had gotten into TWI in 1976, and I in 1978] neither of us had ever seen the video previously. Since the ‘local’ branch would routinely give us grief over rotating each video tape [you can have segment 4, but it needs to run up to Sacramento the next day, and then you will need to get segment 5 from Barstow and take it to San Jose when you are done with it. Etc] It seemed that most TCs and BCs at the time were becoming very controlling and before they handed over the next tape they wanted to know, why was a mere ‘Joe Beleiver’ handling such a tape. It was becoming a popular idea that only corpse should be able to run PFAL classes, and how dare I run a twig, and where was my corpse-overseer. A couple of times I had to drop off at the Limb office to either pick up or drop off tapes. Which was when I was told to just copy them and hold onto the copies. Since I was legitimately running the PFAL class, there was no need to be ‘proving’ myself to every other TC or BC just to borrow the next segment. I was also told that it was a good idea to just store them away for the future as PFAL would become ever more scarce.
We were stationed in Scotland from 1987 – 1990, where we again bought an apartment building. Ran twig out of our home and rented apartments to believers. We attended Gartmore House a number of times. The people there were friendly, but the teachings were not on a ‘beginner’ level. Each time we took people to a Sunday Service at Gartmore, we spent two days explaining what happened. It was fairly wearing on us. When we did get ready to run PFAL we asked them for it. But were told that we were not ‘European” believers and we would have to run under New Knoxville, as “Country Coordinators: for Americans living in Scotland”. HQ was not obliging to send us PFAL either, and referred us to the ‘Military Outreach dude’ [Paul Norcross]. Finally we were able to get ‘approval’ to run PFAL, but the tapes had to be supplied to us via Gartmore. We were told that PFAL was coming and Chris Kent would deliver it to us. So we scheduled the class, and he showed up but he was empty handed. He was like inspecting our fellowship and he sat in on a dinner with us. The following week he came again and that time he delivered their copy of PFAL to our twig. [During all this time, we did hold our own copy of PFAL, but we were concerned about letting anyone know that we had been told to maintain a copy of it]. While living in Scotland we were receiving the weekly Gartmore tapes.
In 1991 we returned stateside, and bought another apartment building, started a twig in it, in Connecticut. I don’t recall anyone saying anything about us buying apartment buildings to live in, or to rent to other believers. There were 2 twigs on our end of the state and Limb was on the other end, so it was convenient to never see them. The LC did put pressure on us to attend TC meetings each month. So we went a few times. Our neighboring TC was corpse and they filled us in on much of what had been happening. We were sent a corpse-couple who had been put on ‘suspended’ status. But being the TC over them was horrible, and they made life miserable. The LC at the time was Wilson Whitehead, he was pretty cool and even allowed us to go through everything he had in his bookstore library. We copied his “how to perform a wedding” class, among other things. And he encouraged us to remain as independent as possible. I don’t think that we ever did start getting the SNT tapes, since returning stateside in 1991. And I know that we never got the Way magazine, as I was still waiting for my complimentary subscription to start from when I took PFAL in 1979.
In 1993, we got a different set of LCs who were very much marching a different tune, and wanted to control things. But again they did not have the time to travel to our end of the state, so we saw them rarely. Finally they wigged out over the fact that I had been performing weddings’ both within the fellowship and at work. We were ‘thrown out’, about the same time that I had orders in hand to transfer.
I was then stationed on the USS Pulaski, where I was appointed the Ship’s Lay-Leader [in charge of all Protestant Services]. So I ran PFAL on-board [and just mailed the paperwork to HQ] as we moved to Washington State, where we again bought more property. I was stationed onboard the USS Alaska, where I was made their Protestant Lay-Leader and we ran a Twig out of the home I bought there. We stayed out of the path of most Corpse, ran our twig and PFAL classes until we were ‘thrown out’ again in 1996. This time, we were thrown out because we owned books written by Cummins, and one by Lynn; and we refused to burn those books. Mosquedo probably did not like us performing weddings, but at least he did not say anything about it.
We were ousted purely because we refused to burn books. During that time, we did many more weddings for TWI believers as well as for sailors who attended my services onboard the sub.
In 1997 I was stationed overseas again [italy] where we finally did things without contacting HQ at all. And as us 2001, we returned stateside and setup a twig here in Connecticut again.
Generally we attended those annoying annual Limb Meetings [if I was available], and sometimes a TC meeting, but I found that the more corpse got to know you, the more ugly things became.
“I think after POP people were pretty much isolated everywhere. The few corpses that I knew that left pretty much kept their mouths shut about what they knew and heard, at least to the regular Joe believer. We just never heard from them again.”
I would agree with this observation.
.
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Eagle
I thought the POP was idiotic and a lie, so I stayed with Martindale. I left because of the mass legalism and stupidity I saw in the second year of Corps. Later, I learned LCM was frothing at the mounth and finally figured the source of the trouble was Martindale.
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