Wierwille always pretended to be in total control. I think things may have got away from him a little bit though. How can one guy control all the variations and examples that might be used to illistrate twi doctrine? It's like when you whisper in one persons ear and it travels around the circle until it ends up being totally different. There's no doubt that there were variations and versions of different aspects of twi doctrine...but the bottom line was that Wierwille kept people on a short leash and twi teachings for the most part, stayed within the boundries that he set. He closely guarded those doctrines which brought in the money and gave him control over people.
My answer is probably. Reminds me a little of Hitler- his cronies did what he wanted done, but Hitler himself could claim that he did not know anything about it. Some of the corpses and others told people to quit taking meds. The official line as proclaimed by the MOG was keep taking your meds until you got delivered, and the meds made you sick. He openly condemned those that told others to quit taking them. Makes me wonder what was really going on. These were his trained mog/mogettes- surely they could remember such simple instructions.
quote:Was his "ministry" so out of his control that his teachings were twisted?
Yes.
quote:Or were the Corps carrying out exactly what he wanted?
No.
I think VPW is responsible for everything he knew about before 1982. Things he didn't know about, is not his fault. And after ol Craig got installed as President, it was a whole new ballgame.
Look at it this way: if George Washington and Ben Franklin were alive today, would they recognize this country as the same one they founded?
I think it's similar with VPW and present day TWI.
While I agree that Wierwille couldn't possibly have known everything that was being done in his name, I find it inconceivable that widespread corruption of his doctrines could have proceeded for very long.
How many times did people say "this wouldn't be going on if 'Doctor' knew about it", only to find out that he either already knew or didn't care?
Something else to consider, with choosing of leadership supposedly done by revelation or inspiration or somesuch, how could Wierwille disavow a rogue teaching?
quote: The implication is that "leadership" or "the Corps" somehow betrayed Wierwille's vision and headed off in direction s that he didn't approve of.
I don't know if I would say "betrayed", so much as I would say "over-zealous". The few times I remember the *straying* you mention, were due to some gung-ho BC, who thought they had the right way of carrying out HQ's directives, but didn't. A case of not looking before they leaped.
VP was SOOOOOO big on military analogies for others, why not let them apply to him too? He loved to say that stupid "The suggestion of a general is tantamount to an order." (I asked someone in the military about that and was told you can get people killed by assuming like that) Was VP responsible? The captain of the ship is responsible for everything that happens regardless. He or she is supposed to know what is going on. So does VP deserve some blame? If you follow HIS standards, yes.
OK, I'm going to say what I think, and it's probably gonna get me in trouble, but I'm feeling a little reckless this evening. ;)-->
VPW was an out of control alcoholic, serial sex abuser, who was the master at surrounding himself with co-dependents. What he was aware of, of what he wasn't, is a moot point.
He was into hiding his sin, (sins)
What "leadership" did or didn't do, teach, promulgate whatever, depended on how codependent they were.
OK, I'm going to say what I think, and it's probably gonna get me in trouble, but I'm feeling a little reckless this evening. ;)-->
VPW was an out of control alcoholic, serial sex abuser, who was the master at surrounding himself with co-dependents. What he was aware of, of what he wasn't, is a moot point.
He was into hiding his sin, (sins)
What "leadership" did or didn't do, teach, promulgate whatever, depended on how codependent they were.
I probably have a different perspective in that I got into TWI after VP died. My impression was that people slavishly worshipped the guy. He was less a leader than the founder of a cult of personality. Old grads who couldn't function in the real world walking around imitating an old german guy from the cornfields of Ohio. I met one guy who bought the same type of dog as VP. Don't remember the breed but it was bred for duck hunting. The idiot lived hundreds of miles from water! Didn't even own a gun. The sad thing is the dog seemed to help him feel better about himself and more spiritual.
Did people stick with his plan? Did many people buy into his little clone's desire to set up his OWN little personality empire? Yep. Was it going on during VPs day? That's for someone else who was there to say. Craig was his father's son, from what I have seen.
quote:I wasn't referring to present-day TWI, unless you think that VP Wierwille is still alive.
Sorry Oakspear, I misunderstood you.
From what I've seen, the teachings were pretty uniform when VPW was in charge. Any significant diverse teaching wouldn't have been allowed. But I do believe that at times, things were said that VPW probably wouldn't have approved of if he knew about it, or else he might have said it differently. One example might be how when someone was sick, VPW taught that you don't teach believing to a person when they're sick, but when they're healthy. Now maybe some others were overzealous and didn't follow that.
There were a lot of things that went contrary to what vpw taught. Especially about the responsability of leadership. Many of those contrary things he promogated actively through his life and example. Many many others he did not lift a finger to stop.
I agree with Ex10 about his mental health and that's probably the reason. But the truth was, if something worked toward his benefit in the short run(as he defined the word "benefit") he did what he could to encourage it whether by omission or comission.
Do you mean things said on the field, from HQ or both? Just curious.
JustThinking, I don't know about hq because I wasn't there for longer than a ROA to know. But I suspect it was the same there as on the field, cause when VP was in charge, people generally agreed with what he was teaching; after all, we all thought he was so accurate. People who disagreed just left.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Wierwille always pretended to be in total control. I think things may have got away from him a little bit though. How can one guy control all the variations and examples that might be used to illistrate twi doctrine? It's like when you whisper in one persons ear and it travels around the circle until it ends up being totally different. There's no doubt that there were variations and versions of different aspects of twi doctrine...but the bottom line was that Wierwille kept people on a short leash and twi teachings for the most part, stayed within the boundries that he set. He closely guarded those doctrines which brought in the money and gave him control over people.
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Ham
My answer is probably. Reminds me a little of Hitler- his cronies did what he wanted done, but Hitler himself could claim that he did not know anything about it. Some of the corpses and others told people to quit taking meds. The official line as proclaimed by the MOG was keep taking your meds until you got delivered, and the meds made you sick. He openly condemned those that told others to quit taking them. Makes me wonder what was really going on. These were his trained mog/mogettes- surely they could remember such simple instructions.
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oldiesman
I think VPW is responsible for everything he knew about before 1982. Things he didn't know about, is not his fault. And after ol Craig got installed as President, it was a whole new ballgame.
Look at it this way: if George Washington and Ben Franklin were alive today, would they recognize this country as the same one they founded?
I think it's similar with VPW and present day TWI.
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Oakspear
I wasn't referring to present-day TWI, unless you think that VP Wierwille is still alive.
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Oakspear
While I agree that Wierwille couldn't possibly have known everything that was being done in his name, I find it inconceivable that widespread corruption of his doctrines could have proceeded for very long.
How many times did people say "this wouldn't be going on if 'Doctor' knew about it", only to find out that he either already knew or didn't care?
Something else to consider, with choosing of leadership supposedly done by revelation or inspiration or somesuch, how could Wierwille disavow a rogue teaching?
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dmiller
I don't know if I would say "betrayed", so much as I would say "over-zealous". The few times I remember the *straying* you mention, were due to some gung-ho BC, who thought they had the right way of carrying out HQ's directives, but didn't. A case of not looking before they leaped.
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JustThinking
VP was SOOOOOO big on military analogies for others, why not let them apply to him too? He loved to say that stupid "The suggestion of a general is tantamount to an order." (I asked someone in the military about that and was told you can get people killed by assuming like that) Was VP responsible? The captain of the ship is responsible for everything that happens regardless. He or she is supposed to know what is going on. So does VP deserve some blame? If you follow HIS standards, yes.
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ex10
OK, I'm going to say what I think, and it's probably gonna get me in trouble, but I'm feeling a little reckless this evening.
;)-->
VPW was an out of control alcoholic, serial sex abuser, who was the master at surrounding himself with co-dependents. What he was aware of, of what he wasn't, is a moot point.
He was into hiding his sin, (sins)
What "leadership" did or didn't do, teach, promulgate whatever, depended on how codependent they were.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
:)-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
I agree with ex10...Vic was a letch who surrounded himself with a$$kissers.
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WordWolf
I disagree with Ex10.
I do NOT believe vpw was "out-of-control".
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JustThinking
I probably have a different perspective in that I got into TWI after VP died. My impression was that people slavishly worshipped the guy. He was less a leader than the founder of a cult of personality. Old grads who couldn't function in the real world walking around imitating an old german guy from the cornfields of Ohio. I met one guy who bought the same type of dog as VP. Don't remember the breed but it was bred for duck hunting. The idiot lived hundreds of miles from water! Didn't even own a gun. The sad thing is the dog seemed to help him feel better about himself and more spiritual.
Did people stick with his plan? Did many people buy into his little clone's desire to set up his OWN little personality empire? Yep. Was it going on during VPs day? That's for someone else who was there to say. Craig was his father's son, from what I have seen.
JT
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oldiesman
From what I've seen, the teachings were pretty uniform when VPW was in charge. Any significant diverse teaching wouldn't have been allowed. But I do believe that at times, things were said that VPW probably wouldn't have approved of if he knew about it, or else he might have said it differently. One example might be how when someone was sick, VPW taught that you don't teach believing to a person when they're sick, but when they're healthy. Now maybe some others were overzealous and didn't follow that.
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JustThinking
Oldies,
Do you mean things said on the field, from HQ or both? Just curious.
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My3Cents
There were a lot of things that went contrary to what vpw taught. Especially about the responsability of leadership. Many of those contrary things he promogated actively through his life and example. Many many others he did not lift a finger to stop.
I agree with Ex10 about his mental health and that's probably the reason. But the truth was, if something worked toward his benefit in the short run(as he defined the word "benefit") he did what he could to encourage it whether by omission or comission.
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oldiesman
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JustThinking
Thanks Oldies.
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