In order to stay current with the present truth, did *disciples* have to graduate from their nearest live taught WAP class? After being an AC grad for almost twenty years I was almost stripped by not taking Loy's PFAL AC and then was stripped by not making the cut for the WAP AC.
Surely they will keep Loy's marketing strategy and require all grads to take their class or not be grads. A captive audiance is the best they have.
It seems that Martindale set the precedent for deviating from the "Teacher's doctrine"...I would think that they will put together some kind of hybrid...I predict that they will revise their "believing equals receiving" doctrine to look a little more like Lynn and Shoenheit's doctrine on "faith". Of course they leave in all the "important" stuff that brings in the money...abundant sharing, recruitment programs, along with their new classes. They will probably come up with a new way to make money on the internet...download classes with your Mastercard (they'll have to revise their doctrine on debt)... ;)-->
Yeah, it sounds like twi will be following CFF's class format by having different teachers in specific segments. What else will they copy?
Could it be that the "man of god in our day and time in all the universe" doc-vic-trine in twi is fading from view?
THEY'LL NEVER ADMIT IT.........but, just perhaps, twi is s--l--o--w--l--y changing because the outreach is cold, the abs levels are flat, and the boring meter is at an all time high???
I second that, Uncle Hairy. It will be hyped as a "clarifying" of the old doctrines, especially PFAL. Heck, sounds like they already floated a trial balloon of sorts at the recent ACS. Just wanted to see what the reaction would be to bringing back some PFAL material.
I don't think they'd dare try to come up with anything substantially original. Or maybe they could just come up with another explanation of the Adam and Eve story... ;)-->
In terms of common sense.......twi better take some DIFFERENT action soon!
Many of the wayfer kids are growing up and leaving their parents' nest with NO COMMITMENT to twi. Yet, within the ranks.......there still are some young kids who might be coaxed if the class is right (and...if the price is right). ;)-->
Otherwise, as the older generation moves to retirement and receives social security payments (and the abs levels take a steep dive).....they're going to soon have 60-year-olds going door to door witnessing.
A new class? Common sense.....and a sense of urgency is driving this decision.
TWI has made some bad to worse moves over the years. After the grand exodus and the formation of so many splinter groups in the late 80's and many of them committed to keep PFAL and the teacher memory alive and well. These splinters seemed to do better with less and also paralleled Loy's TWI to much for comfort.
So they came up with a ridiculous class designed to present Loy as the teacher for our day and time. Then when Loy left the main subject of the class was gone and it completely lost any usefulness. next stupid mistake was teaching it live!
Can they go back to PFAL? No, and they have found out they can try to control the contents but can't. You see VP gave copies to certain corps grads and told them they knew what to do if things went wrong.
TWI lost its ability to control their own main product, while flawed it was very marketable and they produced an unmarketable product. Former followers are much more jealous and committed to running PFAL than anyone they have trying to push WAP.
What they really need is to produce something new, that would stand the test of outside scholars and other reputable institutions. The likelihood of that is about as good as a chimpanzee winning the pulitzer prize..
quote: It seems that Martindale set the precedent for deviating from the "Teacher's doctrine"...I would think that they will put together some kind of hybrid...
I agree with Uncle Hairy. They'll probably take "the best" from wherever they find it, and hope that pfal and wap will fade from memory. To come up with anything original would be admitting they were wrong before.
In their current situation I honestly see no way they can do anything but close up shop and donate all the assets to another non profit org such as CFF or CES, Joyce Myer, or any other number of other 501 C 3's whose entire image has NOT been tarnished forever.
To me it is almost as futile as trying to resurrect something like the PTL Club with Jim Baker or for Michael Jackson to publish childrens books or something. Ha! Ain't gonna happen and will be a waste of (other peoples)money trying.
It's really time to move on, TWI. It is inevitable and just a matter of time in my opinion.
That is only if you actually care about the results or ethics. If your only measure is the cash coming in, it's a good idea.
The only success they've had is to market a cult of personality not a cult of beliefs. Wierwille was bigger than PFAL and it was their only real big hit. They tried it with TWI II but the internet killed that. Even during Craigs reign, they tried to recapture the VP era. They had the corpse calling Howard A***n "Uncle Howard", for example. Pretty lame though. Most or all of it just fizzled. I expect they'll do the same again.
Igoutout has a point about trying to resurrect something so discredited and dead. They will have to make it at least somewhat different from WAP to fool those who don't rememeber PFAL. VPs class is getting to be a pretty distant memory so maybe they can plagiarize parts from that? How ironic would that be?!
J.T., I agree. Pretty soon they will have to address the pres as Uncle Rosie. Heck, it might even work; from a short distance you might not be able to tell the difference.
Hahahahahahahahaha! ROFL! Was Harve the one with the mustache? ;)-->
On a serious note, my impression is that there are some sly folks still around TWI. It might be unwise to just assume they're completely clueless. We might yet see some bold moves to recapture the customers, uh, believers and bring them and their checkbooks back. Here's why I say that:
1. The people left have GOT to be pretty hardcore. They'll accept anything at this point. Good base to build on.
2. During the bad years of the late 80s/early 90s, Craig rallied the troops with heavy promotion of TWI programs. If they bring any of them back such as family camps, we could see a return to selling more than one shtick like they do today with Wayward Disciples.
3. One of the big limiting factors of WAP was the teacher himself. HQ put a hold on registering any new students until that person actually heard Loy screaming at least once. Really, not kidding. So many people were dropping out after hearing him that it became a MAJOR issue. What momentum there was fizzled. If they get someone remotely interesting and not psychotic, they might get somewhere. After all, they did "borrow" some good material to stitch together PFAL.
4. My impression is that things have kind of stabilized. TWI relies on their people getting comfortably dumb and then using them. It's been a while so my guess is that the drones are ready for a new wave of "serving."
I think that JustThinking hit the nail on the head concerning the "cult of personality".
By definition, every cult has a cult leader...the cult is usually built on the charisma and personality of the cult leader...this was certainly true with twi. They can juggle the material around and present it anyway they like, but without a charismatic leader, they ain't going nowhere. Every town in America has plenty of churches and Christian organizations...twi has NOTHING to offer. Their doctrines can be found elsewhere and without the charismatic front man, they are just another local church at best...and at worst, they are a cult without a cult leader, trying to live down a bad reputation.
I remember the first time I saw old Veepee teach live...say what you will about the old bastard, he really knew how to put on a dog and pony show. Never saw a preacher anywhere who taught the way he did...the fire...he could hold a crowd...Now Rosie is a different story entirely. I think listening to Martha Stewart talk about flower arrangements is more inspiring and exciting than listening to Rosie Riverrat spew bland platitudes from her lesbian piehole. I mean, the only reason a lot of us stuck it out with twi was because Veepee could really lather ya up and sell the snakeoil...what I don't understand is how ANYBODY could POSSIBLY follow this woman's "leadership". I mean, Rosie? Gimmee a break! The least they coulda done was got somebody with a little pizzazz.
VP sucked a lot of people in with his charismatic personality and his ability to convince via his teaching.
Loy retained the fraction he did because some folks believed that he was annointed by Wierwille, and he was still (until 1994) running Wierwille's class, which accounted for any new growth. He didn't have Wierwille's skill, but he was entertaining :P-->
I would be very surprised if there was more than a fraction of a trickle of new people under Prez #3. She has no personality, and ousting Loy undermined the "infallibility" of the MOG that helped to keep things together before.
You know it Oakster...Martindale really screwed up a good thing for himself...all he had to do to be successful was to maintain what Wierwille built...keep the trains running on time and be a gracious mog...nope, he couldn't do it. He decided to go looneytunes instead...by dismantling virtually every successful program that twi had built upon (wow, roa, pfal), Martindale proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, that no matter how stupid of a thing you may have done in your life...he was able to top it. Martindale not only trashed the "infallibility" of the mog...but he also demonstrated that the man that Wierwille had so carefully selected to replace him...the man in whom he placed the mantle around his neck and ordained as our next mog...also had .... for brains.
quote:By definition, every cult has a cult leader...
Not exactly: most JW's don't even know the ID of the man behind the curtain, and if they do know it, they hardly care. They certainly don't carry wallet-sized photos of the guy.
VPW had the 'gift' to bring in new people, or 'charisma' as most peopple call it. Martindale lost what he learned from VP, and RFR doesn't even have a clue as to what it is.
A rehash of most of the old PFAL class with some of the new????????????? and some fresh material????? They better think of giving back the original Wierwille farm and selling off the assets before everything goes belly up and they lose what people they have now.
Any new people that they contact, that has internet capabilities, will probably do some kind of reaserch on them and find out what kind of group they are. Along with trying to go back into areas where they were intrenched a long time ago, people and orinizations have a tendency to remember what happened and what the group stood for in the past. Like the old saying goes "An elephant never forgets" most people don't forget on how they were treated by the rank and file that are still in leadership positions and will have a tendancy of telling what they know to the people that TWI will try to contact.
Recommended Posts
Grizzy
In order to stay current with the present truth, did *disciples* have to graduate from their nearest live taught WAP class? After being an AC grad for almost twenty years I was almost stripped by not taking Loy's PFAL AC and then was stripped by not making the cut for the WAP AC.
Surely they will keep Loy's marketing strategy and require all grads to take their class or not be grads. A captive audiance is the best they have.
Are you up to snuff with the present truth?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheSongRemainsTheSame
Grizzy
I am still a Dog Soldier to da bone for the truth
Rok on Grizz
Song
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
It seems that Martindale set the precedent for deviating from the "Teacher's doctrine"...I would think that they will put together some kind of hybrid...I predict that they will revise their "believing equals receiving" doctrine to look a little more like Lynn and Shoenheit's doctrine on "faith". Of course they leave in all the "important" stuff that brings in the money...abundant sharing, recruitment programs, along with their new classes. They will probably come up with a new way to make money on the internet...download classes with your Mastercard (they'll have to revise their doctrine on debt)...
;)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheSongRemainsTheSame
Neh, but rather spawn.
Consider CFF~~~
I thinks that is the most recent juxtaposition Mike
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Regarding CFF.....
Yeah, it sounds like twi will be following CFF's class format by having different teachers in specific segments. What else will they copy?
Could it be that the "man of god in our day and time in all the universe" doc-vic-trine in twi is fading from view?
THEY'LL NEVER ADMIT IT.........but, just perhaps, twi is s--l--o--w--l--y changing because the outreach is cold, the abs levels are flat, and the boring meter is at an all time high???
So, in other words.....twi is "forced" to change.
It's about time.
skyrider
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
who is the vice president now ? harvey ? doesn't the vice president take over ?
if it's harvey, then i think he should host the reunion some of us want tohave at headquarters
are you reading harvey ? linder ? can you tell him please.
you know like an inaugural keg party
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
I second that, Uncle Hairy. It will be hyped as a "clarifying" of the old doctrines, especially PFAL. Heck, sounds like they already floated a trial balloon of sorts at the recent ACS. Just wanted to see what the reaction would be to bringing back some PFAL material.
I don't think they'd dare try to come up with anything substantially original. Or maybe they could just come up with another explanation of the Adam and Eve story...
;)-->
Regards,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
In terms of common sense.......twi better take some DIFFERENT action soon!
Many of the wayfer kids are growing up and leaving their parents' nest with NO COMMITMENT to twi. Yet, within the ranks.......there still are some young kids who might be coaxed if the class is right (and...if the price is right).
;)-->
Otherwise, as the older generation moves to retirement and receives social security payments (and the abs levels take a steep dive).....they're going to soon have 60-year-olds going door to door witnessing.
A new class? Common sense.....and a sense of urgency is driving this decision.
It's about time.
:D-->
skyrider
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Grizzy
TWI has made some bad to worse moves over the years. After the grand exodus and the formation of so many splinter groups in the late 80's and many of them committed to keep PFAL and the teacher memory alive and well. These splinters seemed to do better with less and also paralleled Loy's TWI to much for comfort.
So they came up with a ridiculous class designed to present Loy as the teacher for our day and time. Then when Loy left the main subject of the class was gone and it completely lost any usefulness. next stupid mistake was teaching it live!
Can they go back to PFAL? No, and they have found out they can try to control the contents but can't. You see VP gave copies to certain corps grads and told them they knew what to do if things went wrong.
TWI lost its ability to control their own main product, while flawed it was very marketable and they produced an unmarketable product. Former followers are much more jealous and committed to running PFAL than anyone they have trying to push WAP.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
What they really need is to produce something new, that would stand the test of outside scholars and other reputable institutions. The likelihood of that is about as good as a chimpanzee winning the pulitzer prize..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Mr H.,
As a chimpanzee, I am insulted by the comparison.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
I agree with Uncle Hairy. They'll probably take "the best" from wherever they find it, and hope that pfal and wap will fade from memory. To come up with anything original would be admitting they were wrong before.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
igotout
In their current situation I honestly see no way they can do anything but close up shop and donate all the assets to another non profit org such as CFF or CES, Joyce Myer, or any other number of other 501 C 3's whose entire image has NOT been tarnished forever.
To me it is almost as futile as trying to resurrect something like the PTL Club with Jim Baker or for Michael Jackson to publish childrens books or something. Ha! Ain't gonna happen and will be a waste of (other peoples)money trying.
It's really time to move on, TWI. It is inevitable and just a matter of time in my opinion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Igotout,
That is only if you actually care about the results or ethics. If your only measure is the cash coming in, it's a good idea.
The only success they've had is to market a cult of personality not a cult of beliefs. Wierwille was bigger than PFAL and it was their only real big hit. They tried it with TWI II but the internet killed that. Even during Craigs reign, they tried to recapture the VP era. They had the corpse calling Howard A***n "Uncle Howard", for example. Pretty lame though. Most or all of it just fizzled. I expect they'll do the same again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
JT -- You hit the nail on the head. Regardless what they promote next, they don't want to give up the $$, but will milk it for all it's worth.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Igoutout has a point about trying to resurrect something so discredited and dead. They will have to make it at least somewhat different from WAP to fool those who don't rememeber PFAL. VPs class is getting to be a pretty distant memory so maybe they can plagiarize parts from that? How ironic would that be?!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
J.T., I agree. Pretty soon they will have to address the pres as Uncle Rosie. Heck, it might even work; from a short distance you might not be able to tell the difference.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Mr H,
My only response is
Hahahahahahahahaha! ROFL! Was Harve the one with the mustache?
;)-->
On a serious note, my impression is that there are some sly folks still around TWI. It might be unwise to just assume they're completely clueless. We might yet see some bold moves to recapture the customers, uh, believers and bring them and their checkbooks back. Here's why I say that:
1. The people left have GOT to be pretty hardcore. They'll accept anything at this point. Good base to build on.
2. During the bad years of the late 80s/early 90s, Craig rallied the troops with heavy promotion of TWI programs. If they bring any of them back such as family camps, we could see a return to selling more than one shtick like they do today with Wayward Disciples.
3. One of the big limiting factors of WAP was the teacher himself. HQ put a hold on registering any new students until that person actually heard Loy screaming at least once. Really, not kidding. So many people were dropping out after hearing him that it became a MAJOR issue. What momentum there was fizzled. If they get someone remotely interesting and not psychotic, they might get somewhere. After all, they did "borrow" some good material to stitch together PFAL.
4. My impression is that things have kind of stabilized. TWI relies on their people getting comfortably dumb and then using them. It's been a while so my guess is that the drones are ready for a new wave of "serving."
Am I giving them too much credit?
JT
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I think that JustThinking hit the nail on the head concerning the "cult of personality".
By definition, every cult has a cult leader...the cult is usually built on the charisma and personality of the cult leader...this was certainly true with twi. They can juggle the material around and present it anyway they like, but without a charismatic leader, they ain't going nowhere. Every town in America has plenty of churches and Christian organizations...twi has NOTHING to offer. Their doctrines can be found elsewhere and without the charismatic front man, they are just another local church at best...and at worst, they are a cult without a cult leader, trying to live down a bad reputation.
I remember the first time I saw old Veepee teach live...say what you will about the old bastard, he really knew how to put on a dog and pony show. Never saw a preacher anywhere who taught the way he did...the fire...he could hold a crowd...Now Rosie is a different story entirely. I think listening to Martha Stewart talk about flower arrangements is more inspiring and exciting than listening to Rosie Riverrat spew bland platitudes from her lesbian piehole. I mean, the only reason a lot of us stuck it out with twi was because Veepee could really lather ya up and sell the snakeoil...what I don't understand is how ANYBODY could POSSIBLY follow this woman's "leadership". I mean, Rosie? Gimmee a break! The least they coulda done was got somebody with a little pizzazz.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
I agree, Uncle H.
VP sucked a lot of people in with his charismatic personality and his ability to convince via his teaching.
Loy retained the fraction he did because some folks believed that he was annointed by Wierwille, and he was still (until 1994) running Wierwille's class, which accounted for any new growth. He didn't have Wierwille's skill, but he was entertaining
:P-->
I would be very surprised if there was more than a fraction of a trickle of new people under Prez #3. She has no personality, and ousting Loy undermined the "infallibility" of the MOG that helped to keep things together before.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
You know it Oakster...Martindale really screwed up a good thing for himself...all he had to do to be successful was to maintain what Wierwille built...keep the trains running on time and be a gracious mog...nope, he couldn't do it. He decided to go looneytunes instead...by dismantling virtually every successful program that twi had built upon (wow, roa, pfal), Martindale proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, that no matter how stupid of a thing you may have done in your life...he was able to top it. Martindale not only trashed the "infallibility" of the mog...but he also demonstrated that the man that Wierwille had so carefully selected to replace him...the man in whom he placed the mantle around his neck and ordained as our next mog...also had .... for brains.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
He believed his own press,
and he thought he could do no wrong, to boot.
Dismantling all the programs was largely so that he could
put his own personal brand on all of them like vpw had.
(He had a headstart-he'd appeared on High Country Caravan,
he'd sold his own song-and-dance as a 2-hour video....)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Not exactly: most JW's don't even know the ID of the man behind the curtain, and if they do know it, they hardly care. They certainly don't carry wallet-sized photos of the guy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
danteh1
VPW had the 'gift' to bring in new people, or 'charisma' as most peopple call it. Martindale lost what he learned from VP, and RFR doesn't even have a clue as to what it is.
A rehash of most of the old PFAL class with some of the new????????????? and some fresh material????? They better think of giving back the original Wierwille farm and selling off the assets before everything goes belly up and they lose what people they have now.
Any new people that they contact, that has internet capabilities, will probably do some kind of reaserch on them and find out what kind of group they are. Along with trying to go back into areas where they were intrenched a long time ago, people and orinizations have a tendency to remember what happened and what the group stood for in the past. Like the old saying goes "An elephant never forgets" most people don't forget on how they were treated by the rank and file that are still in leadership positions and will have a tendancy of telling what they know to the people that TWI will try to contact.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.