Ex- I hear that is how it is also. That would explain the declining numbers, especially of new folk. I think the old timers that are in allow it because the changes were gradual. A hundred or two small compromises on "insignificant matters" and they really have you eating out of their trough.
Seems to me that an ordinary person would be a little suspiscious if a church requested to freely rifle through their financial affairs to be allowed to participate in some of their functions..
I'm willing to wager that if I phoned them right now, TWI would say that one may have a mortgage and attend their ACS. But I think it really goes way beyond that and has nothing to do with that. I think the bottom line is, they want only the most committed and loyal people taking their advanced classes; with or without mortgages.
Back in 1978 when I first took the advanced class, I hadn't been attending twig for 6 months, when I applied and was approved to take the advanced class. See how times have changed -- no way that'd be possible today.
JT, I've been out just under 2 years and, in my area at least, rent to own was not acceptable avoidance of debt. But, then again, I have some of the most LCM loving, nazi like leaders in my area.
I'm willing to wager that if I phoned them right now, TWI would say that one may have a mortgage and attend their ACS. But I think it really goes way beyond that and has nothing to do with that. I think the bottom line is, they want only the most committed and loyal people taking their advanced classes; with or without mortgages.
(snip)
I agree you'd be allowed to attend with a mortgage.
However,
I think the bottom line is,
they want the money that attendance brings more than retaining their
error-ridden doctrine of "no mortgage". Greed triumphs over principle
quote: I'm willing to wager that if I phoned them right now, TWI would say that one may have a mortgage and attend their ACS. But I think it really goes way beyond that and has nothing to do with that. I think the bottom line is, they want only the most committed and loyal people taking their advanced classes; with or without mortgages.
Are you saying they've changed their policy or that you would just get a nice answer on the phone?
If you did call, I doubt you would get an answer because the first thing they would do is ask for your name. When they saw you weren't "standing with them" they would start the runaround process. You would never get anything that wasn't politically correct on the phone but you wouldnt' get an answer either.
Post-Martindale policy (my observation, not something in writing, of course) was to stop being DIRECTLY confrontational in public and give non-answers instead. Be vague. One can't be sued for spoken, non-specific policies. To my knowledge, the ACS still requires a policy of non-debt.
Serious question, OM, would you try it. It would be interesting to see their response.
I wonder if the participants got what they paid for. Look what it cost:
Cannot own a home. Never mind the policy that says you can own one, just no mortgage. (I have yet to find anyone, believer or unbeliever, that bought a home without one)
$500+ in registration fees, plane fare, hotel and food
Time that could be MUCH more profitably spent with family or friends
Time and labor spent cleaning leaders' houses, cars, etc. just to be enough on their good side to be able to go.
Not only cash for the event, but fifteen percent of their income donated faithfully for how long?
The list could go on and on.
What did they get? Old, rehashed PFAL teaching, a topical bible study that a second rate hack could produce, and a few assorted sharings.
When I went to the ACS in 2002, I had friends from a state coordinated by B*ll Gr**n who had a mortgage. They told me that they were harassed by their BC, but BG told them they could go to the ACS. They also told me that BG told them they could contact a "no longer standing" ex-corps couple that they were friends with a long time ago.
In the area I was in, there was a "faithful" couple who had decided to buy a house. They were not allowed to run a fellowship or go to the ACS.
I think going to the ACS depends on who the leadership is and how controlling and nazi-like they are.
But then again, why in the H do you have to ask if you can do anything? Think about it, Innies.
quote: Back in 1978 when I first took the advanced class, I hadn't been attending twig for 6 months, when I applied and was approved to take the advanced class. See how times have changed -- no way that'd be possible today.
OM, this was because the almighty dollar was the controlling factor for attendance back then. VP was in for the money. There was no prejudice against anyone willing to pay. Remember, it was the "sign" for commitment? It sure wasn't about grace and mercy from VPW. He liked having a large crowd; I'm sure it made him feel spayshul.
quote: quote:Just talked to an "Innie" who was at Dallas and has a mortgage. As long as the paper work states "RENT TO OWN" there is no problem with TWI to buy a house.
Ayuh
OnionEater, I don't understand what the official policy is. Wishing for Freedom said mortgages are not allowed, but now you're saying mortgages are. What's up?
A simple case of double-talk. Say "RENT TO OWN" in your purchase agreement and it's just rent. A Lawyer and a bank will agree on any wording as long as it's paid and that's all state TWI leaders care about.
I told them, "you sure fooled gawd with that one", they just grinned.
Plenty of suprise inspections from your gracious "overseers" to see if your housekeeping is spiritual enough.
No lasting friendships. If you step out of line, you will find that they are not your friends; they will drop you like the proverbial hot potato. Ironically, they are only friends when it "comes to the word."
A good education. Can't go in debt for anything, you know. Besides, you will not have time to do so on their schedule.
Pets. Does anyone know, is the no pets policy still in force? Still, a "major pet" costs money. You will need to discuss the real need for a pet with your overseer, and perhaps their overseer. Pets cost money, money that you could ABS. Besides, you do not have time for pets or luxuries when you are "moving da verd."
Cable TV and other forms of entertainment will have to be discussed with your overseer.
quote: A simple case of double-talk. Say "RENT TO OWN" in your purchase agreement and it's just rent. A Lawyer and a bank will agree on any wording as long as it's paid and that's all state TWI leaders care about.
There is a huge difference between rent-to-own and a mortgage. Any bank or lawyer will tell you so. Look at who owns the deed and that's all you need to know. Rent-to-own is simply a rental agreement that applies some or all of your rent payments IF you decide to later buy it. A mortgage is what you get IF you decide to buy it.
Agree with it or not but I thought TWI's policy was clear when I was in. Got mortgage? NO ACS or AC. Rent to own is not a mortgage or long-term commitment.
quote: Cannot own a home. Never mind the policy that says you can own one, just no mortgage. (I have yet to find anyone, believer or unbeliever, that bought a home without one)
JT, were they either filthy rich, had a huge inheritance or was the money from selling their original home that they DID have a mortgage on?
I highly doubt you're going to find an average middle class family who has never had a mortgage paying cash for a house unless they win the lottery or come into a windfall some other way. It just isn't going to happen. You can't save for a house while you're paying outrageous rental fees - especially if you have kids and are saving for college for them as well.
I've seen it done. People work hard and their spouse does too before they have kids. And they weren't filthy rich. I don't know that much about their finances as I didn't care to ask. One couple worked in retail positions which aren't known for making millionaires. And their parents are still very much alive so I doubt there was some inheritance.
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Ham
Ex- I hear that is how it is also. That would explain the declining numbers, especially of new folk. I think the old timers that are in allow it because the changes were gradual. A hundred or two small compromises on "insignificant matters" and they really have you eating out of their trough.
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WordWolf
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Ham
Corpse objective #5: "We will practice believing so as to use you to bring material abundance to us and the ministry"
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Steve!
om, i'll try not to hurt your feelings any more. Besides, you've proven my point.
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oldiesman
I'm willing to wager that if I phoned them right now, TWI would say that one may have a mortgage and attend their ACS. But I think it really goes way beyond that and has nothing to do with that. I think the bottom line is, they want only the most committed and loyal people taking their advanced classes; with or without mortgages.
Back in 1978 when I first took the advanced class, I hadn't been attending twig for 6 months, when I applied and was approved to take the advanced class. See how times have changed -- no way that'd be possible today.
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Belle
JT, I've been out just under 2 years and, in my area at least, rent to own was not acceptable avoidance of debt. But, then again, I have some of the most LCM loving, nazi like leaders in my area.
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JustThinking
Belle,
Just when you start to think you had it the worst...
And just when you think they couldn't get any weirder...
JT
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WordWolf
I agree you'd be allowed to attend with a mortgage.
However,
I think the bottom line is,
they want the money that attendance brings more than retaining their
error-ridden doctrine of "no mortgage". Greed triumphs over principle
once again, business as usual.
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JustThinking
Oldies:
Are you saying they've changed their policy or that you would just get a nice answer on the phone?
If you did call, I doubt you would get an answer because the first thing they would do is ask for your name. When they saw you weren't "standing with them" they would start the runaround process. You would never get anything that wasn't politically correct on the phone but you wouldnt' get an answer either.
Post-Martindale policy (my observation, not something in writing, of course) was to stop being DIRECTLY confrontational in public and give non-answers instead. Be vague. One can't be sued for spoken, non-specific policies. To my knowledge, the ACS still requires a policy of non-debt.
Serious question, OM, would you try it. It would be interesting to see their response.
JT
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Ham
I wonder if the participants got what they paid for. Look what it cost:
Cannot own a home. Never mind the policy that says you can own one, just no mortgage. (I have yet to find anyone, believer or unbeliever, that bought a home without one)
$500+ in registration fees, plane fare, hotel and food
Time that could be MUCH more profitably spent with family or friends
Time and labor spent cleaning leaders' houses, cars, etc. just to be enough on their good side to be able to go.
Not only cash for the event, but fifteen percent of their income donated faithfully for how long?
The list could go on and on.
What did they get? Old, rehashed PFAL teaching, a topical bible study that a second rate hack could produce, and a few assorted sharings.
Must have really been worth it.
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Ham
For all of this they can call themselves "God's Elite." I would call it something else..
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excathedra
do you think they all go home saying how blessed they are ? i wonder if deep inside anyone thinks it really stunk
if anyone is reading here who just can't talk themself into being blessed, please don't feel bad
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Nottawayfer
When I went to the ACS in 2002, I had friends from a state coordinated by B*ll Gr**n who had a mortgage. They told me that they were harassed by their BC, but BG told them they could go to the ACS. They also told me that BG told them they could contact a "no longer standing" ex-corps couple that they were friends with a long time ago.
In the area I was in, there was a "faithful" couple who had decided to buy a house. They were not allowed to run a fellowship or go to the ACS.
I think going to the ACS depends on who the leadership is and how controlling and nazi-like they are.
But then again, why in the H do you have to ask if you can do anything? Think about it, Innies.
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Nottawayfer
OM, this was because the almighty dollar was the controlling factor for attendance back then. VP was in for the money. There was no prejudice against anyone willing to pay. Remember, it was the "sign" for commitment? It sure wasn't about grace and mercy from VPW. He liked having a large crowd; I'm sure it made him feel spayshul.
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OnionEater
A simple case of double-talk. Say "RENT TO OWN" in your purchase agreement and it's just rent. A Lawyer and a bank will agree on any wording as long as it's paid and that's all state TWI leaders care about.
I told them, "you sure fooled gawd with that one", they just grinned.
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Ham
If I got a similar return on any other kind of investment that these poor devils did, I would get madder then he**.
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Ham
More thoughts on what the ACS cost:
Plenty of suprise inspections from your gracious "overseers" to see if your housekeeping is spiritual enough.
No lasting friendships. If you step out of line, you will find that they are not your friends; they will drop you like the proverbial hot potato. Ironically, they are only friends when it "comes to the word."
A good education. Can't go in debt for anything, you know. Besides, you will not have time to do so on their schedule.
Pets. Does anyone know, is the no pets policy still in force? Still, a "major pet" costs money. You will need to discuss the real need for a pet with your overseer, and perhaps their overseer. Pets cost money, money that you could ABS. Besides, you do not have time for pets or luxuries when you are "moving da verd."
Cable TV and other forms of entertainment will have to be discussed with your overseer.
"Would you like to come to church with me?"
"No thanks boy, no church with you."
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Ham
Now that you're spiritual enough for the ACS- go for the gusto! You may want to go Vey Disciple, or even the Corpse. I wonder what that would cost!
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Steve!
Ham -
Even if enrollment in the way corpse were free, the cost would be way too much.
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JustThinking
Onion quote:
There is a huge difference between rent-to-own and a mortgage. Any bank or lawyer will tell you so. Look at who owns the deed and that's all you need to know. Rent-to-own is simply a rental agreement that applies some or all of your rent payments IF you decide to later buy it. A mortgage is what you get IF you decide to buy it.
Agree with it or not but I thought TWI's policy was clear when I was in. Got mortgage? NO ACS or AC. Rent to own is not a mortgage or long-term commitment.
JT
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excathedra
just STOP thinking !!!! mwah
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JustThinking
Mr. H,
I have. In and out of TWI.
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Belle
JT, were they either filthy rich, had a huge inheritance or was the money from selling their original home that they DID have a mortgage on?
I highly doubt you're going to find an average middle class family who has never had a mortgage paying cash for a house unless they win the lottery or come into a windfall some other way. It just isn't going to happen. You can't save for a house while you're paying outrageous rental fees - especially if you have kids and are saving for college for them as well.
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JustThinking
Belle,
I've seen it done. People work hard and their spouse does too before they have kids. And they weren't filthy rich. I don't know that much about their finances as I didn't care to ask. One couple worked in retail positions which aren't known for making millionaires. And their parents are still very much alive so I doubt there was some inheritance.
I hear people say it's impossible but...
JT
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