you don't judge anyone, do you ? just like twi, you judge like mad and then put it back on god
oops excuse me, i'm going to talk to the boss (about you) ha !
thanks, excy, my thoughts exactly...good ole waddahayseed, GAWWDDDD'S own mouthpeice, sent from heaven above to lay da Werd on us like it ain't been know since, shoot, alla 1988 at Least.....
The only folks who would even give the guy a glance are xwayfers..... -->
ps wt(f-in)h --- I have NEVER seen you at my church(in my home) or any old place, for that matter.... so YOU GOT revuuulation on me and whether I stand approved before GOD Almighty or not?? NO ....!!!!!!!!!!!!! Aren't you jessss spessshuul!!!
quote:The reason believing may not work for some people is because they are lazy.
No, the reason is that believing is not a law.
quote:They would prefer someone else do the believing just as they prefer someone else "divide" God's Word for them and do all the work.
No, the reason is that believing is not a law.
quote:That way they can complain that believing doesn't work only because they didn't get some kind of "pay-out" for their "workmanship"?
No one said believing doesn't work. Only that it is not a law.
quote:It seems to me if God's approval was on your workmanship, then you should get paid for it.
Want to know what God thinks of your opinion? When was the last time He asked you for it?
quote:But if you didn't get paid, don't complain. If you didn't get "paid", perhaps you should re-examine your workmanship because it might not be worth what you happen to think it is.
Perhaps. Or it could just be that believing is not a law.
quote:Don't complain to me or anyone else. Talk to "The Boss!"
Did I hear Mike or someone say something about "non mastering grads" Or was it "non masterbating grads" or??? I just skimmed and didn't have time to read the fine deatils. :D-->
quote:The law is simple, applying it in a battle can be very challenging. That's why all believers (so far) have died. They pooped out on believing, every one
WOW!!! Just believe and YOU TOO can stop or even reverse entorpy in the universe!!!
Oh wait, that's one of those simple scientific things, isn't it. Something soooo simple that anyone can crasp it. Those silly MD's, Physisists, etc etc., going thru all that schooling and paying all that money just to realise how simple everything is. --> Those retards!
Anyhoo, back to mastering Piffle for me. Which BTW, is also so incredibly simple. I don't see how all you idiots couldn't figure it out back in the way-day. Sheesh! ya'll realy must be numb-sculls.
Actually, Believing =recieving, (stated simply for time)is one of those perfect conspiracy theories (like the one true God Vs. The Debbil) that is totally unprovable and totally logical, but only in a totally unprovable illogical way.
I also touched on this subject on the Masters of the Word thread (I think it was that tread) but I quit discussing the subject with a number of individuals. I came to the conclusion I could not argue anyone into believing - "believing is a law" because the law of believing does not work outside the greater law, which is the law of love.
Just about everybody I was discussing the subject with only wanted some "logical argument" to support it. There is no logical argument to support the law of believing anymore than there is a logical argument to support the law of love. Both laws, the law of believing and the law of love, there is only the command from God's Word; and that is - do.
What do you want now? I'm sorry, but if the law of believing still does not work for you it is because you have failed at keeping the greater law which is the law of love. If you fulfill that law then the law of believing takes care of itself and nobody can argue you out of it. You don't need any explanation for it either - logical or otherwise.
Where are these LAWS? Are these laws like the law of gravity?
quote:You don't need any explanation for it either - logical or otherwise.
It was a foolproof plan...if something good happened to you, then you could thank Veepee for teaching you "the law of believing"...but if something bad happened, then I guess you weren't believeing right. They couldn't lose!
Raf is right...believing is not a law. That's insane. A word to the wise...if you still think that believing equals receiving, you are still engulfed with waybrain and need some counciling.
In one sense, Believing WAS a law, in the way in which we "practiced" it.
It was one of 5 things "required" to receive anything from God - as taught. To us, it was one of the five commandments.
But a funny thing happened after leaving TWI - When I was released from the "absolute" law of the 5 commandments, then I was free to see what I really did believe.
It is fascinating what I discovered I "believed" once I knew I did not have to believe.
I did not HAVE to, because that is what Christ HAD to do. The requirement of belief was a "law" that Christ freed us from.
But there are only 2 that really apply to us....love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength....and our neighbors as ourselves. "On these hang all the law and the prophets."
As far as believing=receiving: receiving would be the response to God giving. God is a loving God and would never be so cruel and to say to a follower "Just believe, no, there's still some doubt, here it is, you know you want it" The believing=receiving idea is like teasing a dog by holding the piece of meat higher than the dog can reach it. That is not the way God works. Numerous times, God simply gave his followers things.
In all honesty, if believing did equal receiving, there would have been around 50,000 millionaires in TWI.
The source of the giving is God. The cause of the receiving is God, not our mental capacities or abilities.
No doubt Wierwille believed in his "law of believing"...He took it to the point where he actually lost his mind...He figured if he could simply believe that he was the great apostle, he would be! Wierwille annointed himself as an apostle (without any help from the good Lord)...simply because he decided to believe such a thing...and as we all know, believing equals receiving...viola! A self made apostle! I think Wierwille got to the point in his own head, that if he thought something...it was revelation! He convinced himself that if HE thought of it...it was God speaking to the world!...A decent psychologist would have a field day with old Veepee on the couch...
On the other hand, believing positively does influence (notice I said influence, not guarantee automatically) positive things to happen. If one feels confident when going to a job interview, and feels he/she is qualified for that job, the person is far more likely to get the job than if one has a negative attitude about getting the job.
A positive atttitude toward a waiter or waitress will normally get you better service than sniping and complaining to the server.
Doctors, scientists, and psychiatrists firmly believe that stress, worry, and anxiety can affect a person's physical health negatively, as well as one's mental health.
So, what we believe can affect or influence or setup circumstances in either a positive or negative way.
Please allow me to point out two things that we were taught in the class and in the books. This is different than What we picked up in the verbal tradition of TWI (Twi's Verbal Tradition = TVT) was loaded with error, and hence loaded with condemnation and bondage.
The law of believing finds it primary application in the spiritual realm. We were taught to believe the promises of God, not just any old wish that pops into our heads. Our focus in believing was to be proficient at all nine manifestations of holy spirit, not in making millions of dollars. This was pretty well lost in the verbal tradition by the early 80's.
Let's also get clear on what mental assent is. Assent means agreement, and the addition of the word "mental" makes it clear that it is NOT spiritual agreement, but 5-senses, flesh agreement.
Jesus told us that in order for us to receive we needed to believe with no doubt. It's also well documented in the Bible that in order for believing to work it must endure. So, the kind of believing that gets results must endure and be pure.
Mental assent, or "agreement" is a lot like this Biblical believing, in that it looks similar, for a while. We could define mental assent as "weak believing" in this sense.
When the 5-senses environment, our external situation, is roughly in agreement with some promise of God, then it's easy for us to agree, or mentally assent, or weakly believe that promise. We might say that God's promise "Sounds good to me. I can go along with that."
But when time goes by and the external situation changes to disagreement, challenging the perceived likelihood of God coming through on His promise, then our agreement with that promise may falter. True Biblical believing, the kind Jesus talked about, will endure challenges and disagreeable circumstances, and it will do so for a LONG TIME.
When we find our "believing" shaken due to unpleasant circumstances or a perceived too long a time in coming, that was not actual believing. We temporarily agreed with it when it was easy, but our believing had a few seeds of doubt in it or was too weak to withstand the onslaught.
I think of the believing of Shadrack, Mishack, and Abendigo often. The circumstances were very disagreeable, yet they vowed to continue believing EVEN IF God didn't deliver them from the firey furnace.
Abraham endured in his believing for a son for years and years, way into his old age. His believing did not crumble, like mere agreement or mental assent would. His believing was not weak believing.
Joseph spent a lot of time in slavery and in prison, unjustly convicted. He even saw his revelation work well for two other people, and still had to wait another two years under those conditions before his deliverance.
I'm convinced that in all my experiences back in "the good old days" most of what I thought was believing was mere mental assent, agreement during favorable circumstances. I harbored many doubts, and my "believing" pooped out when the positive environment turned negative. Most of the good that I received was not due to me operating positive believing, but God's grace where He gave to me in spite of my unbelief. God can do this, and we were taught it.
The last thing I want to mention here is that God gets the glory when believing works. God set up the law, God watches over His Word and is honored when it is believed. God honors our believing in His Word by bringing to pass what we cannot.
quote:On the other hand, believing positively does influence (notice I said influence, not guarantee automatically) positive things to happen. If one feels confident when going to a job interview, and feels he/she is qualified for that job, the person is far more likely to get the job than if one has a negative attitude about getting the job.
Absolutely Biblefan Dave.
And, to THAT degree......it DOES work for saint and sinner alike.
The problem with the vpw doctrine of "believing equals receiving" is the perspective of the one "doing the believing." Through those turbulent twi years, I saw people "believing" for healing, money, new recruits, green traffic lights, parking spaces, anticipating to manifest in a meeting, picked for an assignment, desiring to hug vpw, etc, etc, etc.
It simply became totally anal.
And, it seemed like the mog ALWAYS had the final say on whether one was believing or "being tempted by the devil" on selfish desires.
and what about that word "equals" mathematical exactness scientific precision i guess eh ?
ps. mostly everyone knows a healthy positive attitude is good
but a thought going through your mind that maybe something bad happened (when your kid doesn't get home on time, for instance) does not mean you are killing him
For the most part, VPW used sound logic and sound principles in understanding the Bible. When he covered the others crucified, he used all relevant scriptures.
When he dealt with believing, not so good. If believing = receiving, then he should have dealt with every situation in which someone received something. Most of the teaching regarding believing = receiving centered around the cursing of the fig tree, which in the Advanced Class was taught as the manifestation of believing.
Now, if God tells a person to believe something, and the person believes it, it will come to pass. The cursing of the fig tree was such a situation. But, God must initiate the action but first telling the person.
Other parts of the teaching on believing = receiving was experiential (the woman who wanted red drapes and the little boy who got hit by the car) or the opinion that people die when they stopped believing.
I think that it is the other way around. People stop believing when they die. Of course, they're dead, they can't believe.
Did everyone in the Bible who received something from God believing for it? I don't think so. From out of nowhere, Jesus approaches the man with the withered hand and tells him to stretch out his hand. Where does it indicate that he was "believing for it to happen". God has the power to heal. Jesus spoke that healing into believing with the spoken Word. There is no indication of prior believing, nor having needs and wants parallel, nor knowing beforehand what was available. I would imagine the whole healing incident occurred within just a few minutes time.
Jesus ministered deliverance to those who were possessed. They could not believe. They were possessed.
Jesus ministered healing to Lazarus by raising him from the dead (dead, thus unable to believe).
The Gospels also say that people do not have things because they ask amiss, for the wrong motive or reason. If believing = receiving, then there would have been around 50,000 millionaires in TWI. Of all those believing to be rich, I would guess may 5 at most could claim millionaire status, if that many. 1/10,000th would not indicate that the law holds to be true.
God is not so cruel as to demand that we could only have something if we were absolutely, 100% convinced of something.
quote:Other parts of the teaching on believing = receiving was experiential (the woman who wanted red drapes and the little boy who got hit by the car) or the opinion that people die when they stopped believing.
I think that it is the other way around. People stop believing when they die. Of course, they're dead, they can't believe.
:)-->
Or as I've put it: Death is not caused when someone stops believing. It is caused when someone stops breathing.
On the other hand, believing positively does influence (notice I said influence, not guarantee automatically) positive things to happen. If one feels confident when going to a job interview, and feels he/she is qualified for that job, the person is far more likely to get the job than if one has a negative attitude about getting the job.
Big difference between attitude affecting how you do what you do and assuming your attitude(Belief) can change things beyond your control without your intervention.
Check out this interview with a scientist who studied "Luck" in Wired Mag
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alfakat
thanks, excy, my thoughts exactly...good ole waddahayseed, GAWWDDDD'S own mouthpeice, sent from heaven above to lay da Werd on us like it ain't been know since, shoot, alla 1988 at Least.....
The only folks who would even give the guy a glance are xwayfers.....
-->
ps wt(f-in)h --- I have NEVER seen you at my church(in my home) or any old place, for that matter.... so YOU GOT revuuulation on me and whether I stand approved before GOD Almighty or not?? NO ....!!!!!!!!!!!!! Aren't you jessss spessshuul!!!
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Steve!
I had that down since I was about 2.
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Raf
What the Hay:
No, the reason is that believing is not a law.
No, the reason is that believing is not a law.
No one said believing doesn't work. Only that it is not a law.
Want to know what God thinks of your opinion? When was the last time He asked you for it?
Perhaps. Or it could just be that believing is not a law.
Finally, we agree.
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igotout
Did I hear Mike or someone say something about "non mastering grads" Or was it "non masterbating grads" or??? I just skimmed and didn't have time to read the fine deatils.
:D-->
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lindyhopper
back on page one...
WOW!!!
Just believe and YOU TOO can stop or even reverse entorpy in the universe!!!
Oh wait, that's one of those simple scientific things, isn't it. Something soooo simple that anyone can crasp it. Those silly MD's, Physisists, etc etc., going thru all that schooling and paying all that money just to realise how simple everything is.
--> Those retards!
Anyhoo, back to mastering Piffle for me. Which BTW, is also so incredibly simple. I don't see how all you idiots couldn't figure it out back in the way-day. Sheesh! ya'll realy must be numb-sculls.
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lindyhopper
Actually, Believing =recieving, (stated simply for time)is one of those perfect conspiracy theories (like the one true God Vs. The Debbil) that is totally unprovable and totally logical, but only in a totally unprovable illogical way.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Where are these LAWS? Are these laws like the law of gravity?
Love that one, one blind waiter coming up!!!
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GrouchoMarxJr
It was a foolproof plan...if something good happened to you, then you could thank Veepee for teaching you "the law of believing"...but if something bad happened, then I guess you weren't believeing right. They couldn't lose!
Raf is right...believing is not a law. That's insane. A word to the wise...if you still think that believing equals receiving, you are still engulfed with waybrain and need some counciling.
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Too Gray Now
In one sense, Believing WAS a law, in the way in which we "practiced" it.
It was one of 5 things "required" to receive anything from God - as taught. To us, it was one of the five commandments.
But a funny thing happened after leaving TWI - When I was released from the "absolute" law of the 5 commandments, then I was free to see what I really did believe.
It is fascinating what I discovered I "believed" once I knew I did not have to believe.
I did not HAVE to, because that is what Christ HAD to do. The requirement of belief was a "law" that Christ freed us from.
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excathedra
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dmiller
Yes.
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Too Gray Now
Thanks, Ex.
:)-->But what did you "hear" in what I said? 
-->
I can only hope it was what I meant.
;)-->
Bye for now
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excathedra
what i heard is that we are free from all those damn requirements / laws / guilt for doing it wrong and not receiving dah dah dah
i was so enslaved in twi
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krys
So were we all Reverand Mother.
But there are only 2 that really apply to us....love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength....and our neighbors as ourselves. "On these hang all the law and the prophets."
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Biblefan Dave
As far as believing=receiving: receiving would be the response to God giving. God is a loving God and would never be so cruel and to say to a follower "Just believe, no, there's still some doubt, here it is, you know you want it" The believing=receiving idea is like teasing a dog by holding the piece of meat higher than the dog can reach it. That is not the way God works. Numerous times, God simply gave his followers things.
In all honesty, if believing did equal receiving, there would have been around 50,000 millionaires in TWI.
The source of the giving is God. The cause of the receiving is God, not our mental capacities or abilities.
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excathedra
"reverend mother" i love it when you call me that
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GrouchoMarxJr
No doubt Wierwille believed in his "law of believing"...He took it to the point where he actually lost his mind...He figured if he could simply believe that he was the great apostle, he would be! Wierwille annointed himself as an apostle (without any help from the good Lord)...simply because he decided to believe such a thing...and as we all know, believing equals receiving...viola! A self made apostle! I think Wierwille got to the point in his own head, that if he thought something...it was revelation! He convinced himself that if HE thought of it...it was God speaking to the world!...A decent psychologist would have a field day with old Veepee on the couch...
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Biblefan Dave
On the other hand, believing positively does influence (notice I said influence, not guarantee automatically) positive things to happen. If one feels confident when going to a job interview, and feels he/she is qualified for that job, the person is far more likely to get the job than if one has a negative attitude about getting the job.
A positive atttitude toward a waiter or waitress will normally get you better service than sniping and complaining to the server.
Doctors, scientists, and psychiatrists firmly believe that stress, worry, and anxiety can affect a person's physical health negatively, as well as one's mental health.
So, what we believe can affect or influence or setup circumstances in either a positive or negative way.
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Mike
Please allow me to point out two things that we were taught in the class and in the books. This is different than What we picked up in the verbal tradition of TWI (Twi's Verbal Tradition = TVT) was loaded with error, and hence loaded with condemnation and bondage.
The law of believing finds it primary application in the spiritual realm. We were taught to believe the promises of God, not just any old wish that pops into our heads. Our focus in believing was to be proficient at all nine manifestations of holy spirit, not in making millions of dollars. This was pretty well lost in the verbal tradition by the early 80's.
Let's also get clear on what mental assent is. Assent means agreement, and the addition of the word "mental" makes it clear that it is NOT spiritual agreement, but 5-senses, flesh agreement.
Jesus told us that in order for us to receive we needed to believe with no doubt. It's also well documented in the Bible that in order for believing to work it must endure. So, the kind of believing that gets results must endure and be pure.
Mental assent, or "agreement" is a lot like this Biblical believing, in that it looks similar, for a while. We could define mental assent as "weak believing" in this sense.
When the 5-senses environment, our external situation, is roughly in agreement with some promise of God, then it's easy for us to agree, or mentally assent, or weakly believe that promise. We might say that God's promise "Sounds good to me. I can go along with that."
But when time goes by and the external situation changes to disagreement, challenging the perceived likelihood of God coming through on His promise, then our agreement with that promise may falter. True Biblical believing, the kind Jesus talked about, will endure challenges and disagreeable circumstances, and it will do so for a LONG TIME.
When we find our "believing" shaken due to unpleasant circumstances or a perceived too long a time in coming, that was not actual believing. We temporarily agreed with it when it was easy, but our believing had a few seeds of doubt in it or was too weak to withstand the onslaught.
I think of the believing of Shadrack, Mishack, and Abendigo often. The circumstances were very disagreeable, yet they vowed to continue believing EVEN IF God didn't deliver them from the firey furnace.
Abraham endured in his believing for a son for years and years, way into his old age. His believing did not crumble, like mere agreement or mental assent would. His believing was not weak believing.
Joseph spent a lot of time in slavery and in prison, unjustly convicted. He even saw his revelation work well for two other people, and still had to wait another two years under those conditions before his deliverance.
I'm convinced that in all my experiences back in "the good old days" most of what I thought was believing was mere mental assent, agreement during favorable circumstances. I harbored many doubts, and my "believing" pooped out when the positive environment turned negative. Most of the good that I received was not due to me operating positive believing, but God's grace where He gave to me in spite of my unbelief. God can do this, and we were taught it.
The last thing I want to mention here is that God gets the glory when believing works. God set up the law, God watches over His Word and is honored when it is believed. God honors our believing in His Word by bringing to pass what we cannot.
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skyrider
Absolutely Biblefan Dave.
And, to THAT degree......it DOES work for saint and sinner alike.
The problem with the vpw doctrine of "believing equals receiving" is the perspective of the one "doing the believing." Through those turbulent twi years, I saw people "believing" for healing, money, new recruits, green traffic lights, parking spaces, anticipating to manifest in a meeting, picked for an assignment, desiring to hug vpw, etc, etc, etc.
It simply became totally anal.
And, it seemed like the mog ALWAYS had the final say on whether one was believing or "being tempted by the devil" on selfish desires.
skyrider
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excathedra
and what about that word "equals" mathematical exactness scientific precision i guess eh ?
ps. mostly everyone knows a healthy positive attitude is good
but a thought going through your mind that maybe something bad happened (when your kid doesn't get home on time, for instance) does not mean you are killing him
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Biblefan Dave
For the most part, VPW used sound logic and sound principles in understanding the Bible. When he covered the others crucified, he used all relevant scriptures.
When he dealt with believing, not so good. If believing = receiving, then he should have dealt with every situation in which someone received something. Most of the teaching regarding believing = receiving centered around the cursing of the fig tree, which in the Advanced Class was taught as the manifestation of believing.
Now, if God tells a person to believe something, and the person believes it, it will come to pass. The cursing of the fig tree was such a situation. But, God must initiate the action but first telling the person.
Other parts of the teaching on believing = receiving was experiential (the woman who wanted red drapes and the little boy who got hit by the car) or the opinion that people die when they stopped believing.
I think that it is the other way around. People stop believing when they die. Of course, they're dead, they can't believe.
Did everyone in the Bible who received something from God believing for it? I don't think so. From out of nowhere, Jesus approaches the man with the withered hand and tells him to stretch out his hand. Where does it indicate that he was "believing for it to happen". God has the power to heal. Jesus spoke that healing into believing with the spoken Word. There is no indication of prior believing, nor having needs and wants parallel, nor knowing beforehand what was available. I would imagine the whole healing incident occurred within just a few minutes time.
Jesus ministered deliverance to those who were possessed. They could not believe. They were possessed.
Jesus ministered healing to Lazarus by raising him from the dead (dead, thus unable to believe).
The Gospels also say that people do not have things because they ask amiss, for the wrong motive or reason. If believing = receiving, then there would have been around 50,000 millionaires in TWI. Of all those believing to be rich, I would guess may 5 at most could claim millionaire status, if that many. 1/10,000th would not indicate that the law holds to be true.
God is not so cruel as to demand that we could only have something if we were absolutely, 100% convinced of something.
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Raf
Or as I've put it: Death is not caused when someone stops believing. It is caused when someone stops breathing.
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My3Cents
Big difference between attitude affecting how you do what you do and assuming your attitude(Belief) can change things beyond your control without your intervention.
Check out this interview with a scientist who studied "Luck" in Wired Mag
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