Were any of the instances you refer to against the law? Should someone have gone to jail because of their acts? Were you told to look the other way when something was immoral or illegal?
oh yep indeed I had just taken the class and I was told by corps I couldnt possibly be right they loved this person and he was a "believer" for many years. very popular dude knew and taught the word at twig excellent friendships with some big clergy. I was ashamed to metion the problem .
a few years later he did go to jail and I was marked and avoided .
I do NOT think the motive was evil I think it was loyal people loving one another in ignorance that anything bad could be amoung them.
During my 13 years in twi, bad council was the order of the day. Everytime I would follow the "council" of some twi leader, it would turn out wrong.
I recall an incident where a branch leader beat the hell out of his wife. She had black eyes and a fat lip! When I saw her, I advised her to call the cops...about an hour later, I get a call from the limb leader, giving me the old "that the ministry be not blamed" schpiel. The whole thing got covered up. Sometime later, she left him. Honestly, it seems that every damn thing they ever "counciled" me on was wrong.
Lessee, I know of one instance where the mother and step father were *counceled* to throw the rebellious teen daughter on the street...she had a problem with proper respect to the lc. (failure to follow such sage advice incidently, would result im m&a for the entire family)
My own *counceling* recieved concerning the honoring commitment and breaking of vows...and what God required of a dulous.
Only time I ever disobeyed a *recomendation* was when lcm went ballistic in a letter concerning my upcoming marriage, rather than entry into residence that fall....(um 18 years and 7 kids later, I am still glad I ignored that *counceling*)
When I was 17 I was raped at knifepoint by a 'babe' who was taking piffle. Not only was I told not to go to the cops, but, when I did go to the cops, a twig leader and an 'old grad' were sent by the branch leader to bear false witness against me to the DA. The guy who raped me was let out of jail and no charges were pressed. Within the hour after he was let go, he raped a 12yo girl. Her family hated twi...but they were 'witnessed' to about forgiveness...
The limb leader on down to the twig leader and my twig 'family' begged me to reject the 4 years of college my real family had paid for already. You see, it was a Nazarene College and I wasn't going to learn 'the rightly divided word' at that college. Here I sit today with nothing but poverty to show for listening to twi.
Don't even get me started about the 'words of wisdom' handed down through HQ over the whole Alaska fiasco! Luckily me and others involved didn't listen that time...and people went to prison...even if only for a little while...and the perps were found guilty in a court of law for raping and otherwise hurting children...and that's on their records forever.
Rascal, I can name way too many families who were counseled to ship their kids off - one to her "cop-out" parent because she was "out of control". Nevermind counselling the parents on how to watch their child and raise her - don't fix the problem; just ship it off for someone else to deal with.
This child was raised in TWI and the parents were in TWI from the day the kid was born. Dontcha think the parent maintaining custody would have been trained in how to raise a child according to TWIt standards?
I know of a person who was arrested for something stupid done nearly 20 years earlier and called the bc to help. The bc said he would take care of it. He took care of it all right...left this person in jail for DAYS! They would have stayed in jail if the roommate hadn't bucked orders and bailed the person out! Just left them in jail!! How loving is that??? Then the lcs didn't even acknowledge the situation happened when they saw this person again. Cold hearted b@stards!
Wise counsel my foot!!
sorry, this really gets me riled up if you can't tell
A WC grad told us, when our then 12-year-old son was being rebellious to "take him up into the North Cascades so far no one can hear him scream, and take turns hitting him with a 2 x 4 so that he knows if he ever again is disrespectful or disobedient, he will die."
We were also told when he was 14, by a different TC,to drive him down to Pike Place Market and shove him out of the car and drive away.
I pointed out to this guy and his wife that such action could get us put in jail, and she replied dreamily, "Oh you meet wonderful people in jail! The Apostle Paul was in jail once."
Of course we did neither. But it kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it, if these people had a CLUE about life as we know it?
Wonder how many folks through the years followed her sage wisdom? You know that suggestions from leadrship constitued an order to the committed doulos.
I don`t suppose Jesus`s instructions regarding the kiddoes held any water with her eh?
The one who made the first suggestion was a man who with his WC wifey had four children, 3 boys 1 girl. They were all vigorously disciplined. We thought they could help teach us how to get some control over our kid. They must have thrashed each child at least once daily, punished one of them for falling off a wall and probably breaking his arm by NOT taking him to a doctor. He had been told by his father to stay off that wall and deserved all the pain he was suffering.
The dad also enjoyed kicking his sons in the buttocks for disobedience and stupidity. Made them bend over in front of him and with one boot sent them flying across the room.
It amazes and embarrasses me that I kept my mouth shut. If I were in someone's home today and saw them treat their kids like that, my cell phone would be dialing 9-1-1 in a heartbeat, right before I gave this worthless man a verbral thrashing he would not soon forget. He was a loud-mouthed, vicious child abuser who masked his own inadequacies by lording it over anyone he perceived as being helpless to prevent him. They both thoroughly enjoyed the Way Corps Nazi Inquisition period in 1994-95.
I know I should forgive him. I do for what he did to us. For what he did to his own sons and daughter, he should rot in hell.
And since these people were our leaders we naturally thought that they would have sage and practical advice in any situation, child rearing, medical, business, taxes.
No one ever told me to beat my kids or toss them out of the car or anything, but there was plenty of stupid advice that we knew was stupid, but were pressured to follow (or at least quietly pretend to follow ;)-->)
The branch coordinator who told us to not let our kids read in their beds before going to sleep because bedtime was for sleeping (gee, who can argue with that logic? -->) - telling our kids that they couldn't read wouldn't have a negative effect on their enjoyment of books would it? -->
And the same idiot bc who told my son that he was in debt because he had to pay in some money to the IRS rather than get a refund; he was in debt, and therefore out of fellowship...
I also knew of a situation while I was on staff where parents were counseled to mark and avoid a "rebellious" teenager. This girl ended up going to a foster home. Martinpuke told the lc of ohio (LP) to handle the situation for HQ so that it didn't put HQ in the limelight. It was a sad, sad situation. Martinpuke spewed for a long time about these parents and how the effed up they were and how he had to personally get involved in counsel with their family. It makes me wonder what the REAL story is. These people continued to come to the sunday service after they were booted off of staff. Martinpuke had the balls to say he was disgusted to see their faces in the audience while he was teaching. Just shows the heartlessness the bastages have for people.
Thanks for the info; I missed that thread. I read a few pages of it tonight and all I can say is OMG!!! That is horrendous and makes my blood boil!
That is just a PRIME example of twi covering their @sses "lest the ministry be blamed".
CW, that is a terrible thing for you and your family to go through. Your daughter is a brave girl. So is your family to stand up to that. God bless your hearts.
After reading some accounts over the past year, my "injuries" don't seem so bad.
Here are a couple of things I saw in my Wayer years:
1. People railroaded out the door for not fitting the TWI mold
2. Just about every LC where I was had an affair.
3. Most LCs were booted, left or were just psycho
4. Most BCs booted, left or were just psycho.
5. Told to stop witnessing to an alcoholic because our ministry was not "focused on that issue." There were other places she should go first like rehab. Nice words but it was never suggested we actually find a rehab place. Just ditch the person.
6. The infamous "stop taking your meds" routine that others have seen. The person nearly committed suicide.
"How many other instances do we know about where leadership counseled people in error like this?"
Here's some BAD council:
I was out WOW when my grandfather was killed in a hold up at his dry cleaning store.
TWI told me that it (his death) was a "trick" to get me to leave the WOW field. This "leaving" of the WOW program would have consisted of 24 hours tops.
His death left me with a "significant" inheritance. This money was ruled a "distraction" from my WOW "commitment". I was 10 years old. It was TWI's "advice" to sign this money "away" to TWI. Since that was "what I would do with it anyway". My mother signed it away. It paid for our corps "training".
Lucky me.
Woops , there's no such thing as luck.
This is not the only money TWI stole from me.
But at least I know how to line up chairs with a string, lead a sing a long and am guaranteed to go to heaven.
Well I've had nothing as dramatic as some of these instances, but I can say we possibly had bad counsel. We lived with our BC in town, and we were thinking of buying a home. He said go for it. Looking back on it, I wish he'd advised against it, as we ended up going to Germany with the army and it was difficult to sell, and then we did not want to move back there anyways. He could have told us to rent a home instead.
Well my husband wanted a house cause other military people had them, and he wanted his own.
So yeah, that part of life is over, but I'd always thought if someone who had the ability to advise you LIVED with you; you'd be talking about the ins and outs of a decision. We don't live in a home of our own right now, we'd lost too much money before...
Mormonlady..don't know if you've realised it yet but just as bad (if not worse) goes on within the 'Mormon church)..I mean read Galens post about them in the 'politics' post..
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JustThinking
I have a few myself. Multiply that by how many people? It sure adds up fast.
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Nottawayfer
JT:
Were any of the instances you refer to against the law? Should someone have gone to jail because of their acts? Were you told to look the other way when something was immoral or illegal?
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JustThinking
Illegal? No. Immoral? Absolutely.
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mj412
oh yep indeed I had just taken the class and I was told by corps I couldnt possibly be right they loved this person and he was a "believer" for many years. very popular dude knew and taught the word at twig excellent friendships with some big clergy. I was ashamed to metion the problem .
a few years later he did go to jail and I was marked and avoided .
I do NOT think the motive was evil I think it was loyal people loving one another in ignorance that anything bad could be amoung them.
boy were we wrong huh?
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GrouchoMarxJr
During my 13 years in twi, bad council was the order of the day. Everytime I would follow the "council" of some twi leader, it would turn out wrong.
I recall an incident where a branch leader beat the hell out of his wife. She had black eyes and a fat lip! When I saw her, I advised her to call the cops...about an hour later, I get a call from the limb leader, giving me the old "that the ministry be not blamed" schpiel. The whole thing got covered up. Sometime later, she left him. Honestly, it seems that every damn thing they ever "counciled" me on was wrong.
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rascal
Damn hairy, that is scarey.
Lessee, I know of one instance where the mother and step father were *counceled* to throw the rebellious teen daughter on the street...she had a problem with proper respect to the lc. (failure to follow such sage advice incidently, would result im m&a for the entire family)
My own *counceling* recieved concerning the honoring commitment and breaking of vows...and what God required of a dulous.
Only time I ever disobeyed a *recomendation* was when lcm went ballistic in a letter concerning my upcoming marriage, rather than entry into residence that fall....(um 18 years and 7 kids later, I am still glad I ignored that *counceling*)
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CoolWaters
What a thread!
Lessee...where to begin...
Good Morning Viet Nam.
Sigh.
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Belle
Rascal, I can name way too many families who were counseled to ship their kids off - one to her "cop-out" parent because she was "out of control". Nevermind counselling the parents on how to watch their child and raise her - don't fix the problem; just ship it off for someone else to deal with.
This child was raised in TWI and the parents were in TWI from the day the kid was born. Dontcha think the parent maintaining custody would have been trained in how to raise a child according to TWIt standards?
I know of a person who was arrested for something stupid done nearly 20 years earlier and called the bc to help. The bc said he would take care of it. He took care of it all right...left this person in jail for DAYS! They would have stayed in jail if the roommate hadn't bucked orders and bailed the person out! Just left them in jail!! How loving is that??? Then the lcs didn't even acknowledge the situation happened when they saw this person again. Cold hearted b@stards!
Wise counsel my foot!!
sorry, this really gets me riled up if you can't tell
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Watered Garden
A WC grad told us, when our then 12-year-old son was being rebellious to "take him up into the North Cascades so far no one can hear him scream, and take turns hitting him with a 2 x 4 so that he knows if he ever again is disrespectful or disobedient, he will die."
We were also told when he was 14, by a different TC,to drive him down to Pike Place Market and shove him out of the car and drive away.
I pointed out to this guy and his wife that such action could get us put in jail, and she replied dreamily, "Oh you meet wonderful people in jail! The Apostle Paul was in jail once."
Of course we did neither. But it kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it, if these people had a CLUE about life as we know it?
WG
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rascal
Oh geeze wg, that is really REALLY sick.
Wonder how many folks through the years followed her sage wisdom? You know that suggestions from leadrship constitued an order to the committed doulos.
I don`t suppose Jesus`s instructions regarding the kiddoes held any water with her eh?
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Watered Garden
The one who made the first suggestion was a man who with his WC wifey had four children, 3 boys 1 girl. They were all vigorously disciplined. We thought they could help teach us how to get some control over our kid. They must have thrashed each child at least once daily, punished one of them for falling off a wall and probably breaking his arm by NOT taking him to a doctor. He had been told by his father to stay off that wall and deserved all the pain he was suffering.
The dad also enjoyed kicking his sons in the buttocks for disobedience and stupidity. Made them bend over in front of him and with one boot sent them flying across the room.
It amazes and embarrasses me that I kept my mouth shut. If I were in someone's home today and saw them treat their kids like that, my cell phone would be dialing 9-1-1 in a heartbeat, right before I gave this worthless man a verbral thrashing he would not soon forget. He was a loud-mouthed, vicious child abuser who masked his own inadequacies by lording it over anyone he perceived as being helpless to prevent him. They both thoroughly enjoyed the Way Corps Nazi Inquisition period in 1994-95.
I know I should forgive him. I do for what he did to us. For what he did to his own sons and daughter, he should rot in hell.
WG
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Oakspear
And since these people were our leaders we naturally thought that they would have sage and practical advice in any situation, child rearing, medical, business, taxes.
No one ever told me to beat my kids or toss them out of the car or anything, but there was plenty of stupid advice that we knew was stupid, but were pressured to follow (or at least quietly pretend to follow
;)-->)
The branch coordinator who told us to not let our kids read in their beds before going to sleep because bedtime was for sleeping (gee, who can argue with that logic?
-->) - telling our kids that they couldn't read wouldn't have a negative effect on their enjoyment of books would it? 
-->
And the same idiot bc who told my son that he was in debt because he had to pay in some money to the IRS rather than get a refund; he was in debt, and therefore out of fellowship...
The list is endless
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Nottawayfer
What was the Alaska fiasco? I don't know about this.
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Nottawayfer
I also knew of a situation while I was on staff where parents were counseled to mark and avoid a "rebellious" teenager. This girl ended up going to a foster home. Martinpuke told the lc of ohio (LP) to handle the situation for HQ so that it didn't put HQ in the limelight. It was a sad, sad situation. Martinpuke spewed for a long time about these parents and how the effed up they were and how he had to personally get involved in counsel with their family. It makes me wonder what the REAL story is. These people continued to come to the sunday service after they were booted off of staff. Martinpuke had the balls to say he was disgusted to see their faces in the audience while he was teaching. Just shows the heartlessness the bastages have for people.
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rascal
Wafer not, a lot of the horrendous details were on the child abuse thread started a month or two back.
It is like a very very BAD night mare.
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Nottawayfer
Rascal,
Thanks for the info; I missed that thread. I read a few pages of it tonight and all I can say is OMG!!!
That is horrendous and makes my blood boil!
That is just a PRIME example of twi covering their @sses "lest the ministry be blamed".
CW, that is a terrible thing for you and your family to go through. Your daughter is a brave girl. So is your family to stand up to that. God bless your hearts.
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CoolWaters
TY, Wafer Not!
My family got out of that situation with the least amount of damage.
Did you get to read any of templelady's posts? She never ceases to amaze me!
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JustThinking
After reading some accounts over the past year, my "injuries" don't seem so bad.
Here are a couple of things I saw in my Wayer years:
1. People railroaded out the door for not fitting the TWI mold
2. Just about every LC where I was had an affair.
3. Most LCs were booted, left or were just psycho
4. Most BCs booted, left or were just psycho.
5. Told to stop witnessing to an alcoholic because our ministry was not "focused on that issue." There were other places she should go first like rehab. Nice words but it was never suggested we actually find a rehab place. Just ditch the person.
6. The infamous "stop taking your meds" routine that others have seen. The person nearly committed suicide.
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Georgio Jessio
"How many other instances do we know about where leadership counseled people in error like this?"
Here's some BAD council:
I was out WOW when my grandfather was killed in a hold up at his dry cleaning store.
TWI told me that it (his death) was a "trick" to get me to leave the WOW field. This "leaving" of the WOW program would have consisted of 24 hours tops.
His death left me with a "significant" inheritance. This money was ruled a "distraction" from my WOW "commitment". I was 10 years old. It was TWI's "advice" to sign this money "away" to TWI. Since that was "what I would do with it anyway". My mother signed it away. It paid for our corps "training".
Lucky me.
Woops , there's no such thing as luck.
This is not the only money TWI stole from me.
But at least I know how to line up chairs with a string, lead a sing a long and am guaranteed to go to heaven.
Whew~
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Belle
There's the couple who ended up in jail for tax evasion or fraud after taking advice from someone at hq about their business & taxes.
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Jan
Well I've had nothing as dramatic as some of these instances, but I can say we possibly had bad counsel. We lived with our BC in town, and we were thinking of buying a home. He said go for it. Looking back on it, I wish he'd advised against it, as we ended up going to Germany with the army and it was difficult to sell, and then we did not want to move back there anyways. He could have told us to rent a home instead.
Jan
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bliss
Jan,
Whoa.
Most leadership told people "no way hozay" to buying a home.....(to which they had no right to say)
Here is your BC saying, go for it, which is exactly what he should of said.....it's your money, you decide..
I don't think he had "forknowledge" that you wouldn't be able to sell.
That is for you to figure out with your life style and family situation financially.
But having said that, he's guilty of not accessing your military situation, and realizing that you have to move too much.
We have many military friends and they all refuse to buy a house until they are out, it is just too much hassle.
Then, yes he should've advised you otherwise, but, we all esteemed leadership's advice way too much over our own common sense.
Whew, glad that is over....back to my brain, thanks!
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Jan
Well my husband wanted a house cause other military people had them, and he wanted his own.
So yeah, that part of life is over, but I'd always thought if someone who had the ability to advise you LIVED with you; you'd be talking about the ins and outs of a decision. We don't live in a home of our own right now, we'd lost too much money before...
Jan
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Allan
I think this goes back to the 'old blame game'
everyone elses fault except mine..
Mormonlady..don't know if you've realised it yet but just as bad (if not worse) goes on within the 'Mormon church)..I mean read Galens post about them in the 'politics' post..
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