Sorry for the flip answer. One thing that came and went:
Only witnessing to the middle class (never really defined what that meant)
No explanation of that or any other change was ever given that I saw. They just sort of faded away. When asked they would just sort of mumble something like "well, we're not doing that anymore."
Another change was needing 7 new students for a class. It was lowered to 3. No announcement. Just sort of happened.
When I took the PFAL class, I heard VPW say that he was not perfect, and that not everything he said was God-breathed. Based upon that, I fully expected that there would be times when the research staff re-checked some teachings and would find problems with the teachings. I fully expected that leaders would be correcting some previous teachings. Now, to be completely honest, I can't recall a time when that was done, but I still expected it to happen, and certainly would not have been surprised by such an announcement.
When VPW taught from Ephesian 6, he never mentioned the pieces of armor actually being athletic gear. LCM came up with that idea. Yet, LCM was a former college football player, thus, it was an agenda-based assumption rather than true biblical research that led to such a teaching. LCM never fully explained how he came to such a conclusion. All he ever said was that they held the ancient Olympics, and that the Greeks had once been in control of that section of the world when Jesus and the Apostles lived. So, in that instance, the teaching was changed from truth to error. They kinda went backwards on that one.
I believe that there was at least one early collateral reading that was pulled, something on sex and relations. I doubt that there was any mention of it being in error. I was told by an early corps that it was done before VPW fully researched the subject.
I guess the most insidious practice was to treat any innovation by the rank & file as inferior. Heck, you could take one of the "actual errors", point it out to someone, and you were told to "hold it in abeyance" or that you weren't spiritual enough.
Despite PFAL being billed as "a class on keys", enabling us all to be able to read and understand the scripture, the "keys" were convenient props to show how wise the MOG was
quote:Heck, you could take one of the "actual errors", point it out to someone, and you were told to "hold it in abeyance" or that you weren't spiritual enough
Man oh man, does that bring a memory to me. Remember that stupid "Believer's Family Class"? Remember Martinpuke teaching that it is OK for single people to get laid once they get "of age" and aren't married? Well, I struggled with that for a long time being a divorced 30-something woman. I sat through that damn class scratchin my head. I talked to my TC who didn't have the balls to say "He is wrong" nor would they back up the damn teaching. As a matter of fact they told me if I brought someone home for that purpose, they would be upset. The TC just said "I don't know; talk to the BC." The BC's wife openly promoted going out and getting laid by whomever you pleased. Talk about confusion. This woman said that most of the problems in her fellowship were due to people not getting laid.... -->
When I took the PFAL class, I heard VPW say that he was not perfect, and that not everything he said was God-breathed. Based upon that, I fully expected that there would be times when the research staff re-checked some teachings and would find problems with the teachings. I fully expected that leaders would be correcting some previous teachings. Now, to be completely honest, I can't recall a time when that was done, but I still expected it to happen, and certainly would not have been surprised by such an announcement.
When VPW taught from Ephesian 6, he never mentioned the pieces of armor actually being athletic gear. LCM came up with that idea. Yet, LCM was a former college football player, thus, it was an agenda-based assumption rather than true biblical research that led to such a teaching. LCM never fully explained how he came to such a conclusion. All he ever said was that they held the ancient Olympics, and that the Greeks had once been in control of that section of the world when Jesus and the Apostles lived. So, in that instance, the teaching was changed from truth to error. They kinda went backwards on that one.
WRONG--herr vicenstein was the first to teach the Athletes stuff including the change to gear in Eph.6 .... where do you think numbskull loy GOT the idea, bdave?? Better know what you are talking about before opening yap....
Yes the number of days from Pentecost until the Ascention changed from 50 to 40 then back for a time. Then there was the long runing sonship adoption battle back and forth over the years.
Wierwille always played the "humble workman of the word" role, admitting that he was always open to correction on his research...NOT! I know of several occasions when people would confront him with some of his errors and he would go ballistic! There were times, like Whitedove mentioned, when Veepee would announce a "correction" of sorts in some minor doctrinal detail...but I think that a lot of that was contrived, just to give the appearence of "on-going" research.
Probably the biggest doctrinal change that Wierwille made was when he changed his position on tithing. This was just before the huge influx of young people began...Wierwille saw the need to generate some income for this growing organization...and many of the old timers, including Peter Wade, walked away.
Martindale was consumed with being the MOG...to the point of trashing much of Wierwille's work in order to glorify himself. Martindale's doctrines were sophmoric at best...any serious theologian who looked at Martindales "work" would probably soil himself laughing. Actually, I'm surprised that kingokie was able to teach it twice the same way.
"Need and Want Parallel." In the film, Wierwille put his hands together to indicate that need and want should be parallel to each other (you should need it as much as you want it), and it sure sounded to me like that's what he meant. That's what was taught in Twig as well, though the verses he cites clearly have nothing to do with need and want being equal to each other. Somewhere down the line, it was changed to explain that Wierwille wanted them parallel to the Word, that his hands were held parallel over the Bible he was sitting in front of. If that be true, it was a pretty muddy explanation (red drapes and all that).
"All Without Exception/All Without Distinction." Just bad English, as they basically mean the same thing. In PFAL '77, Wierwille said his "research department" told him he should say it "all with distinction." (Could have said "all without exception or all with exception" and I think it would have been clearer.) He just shrugged and said something like, "But you all knew what I meant, didn't you?" and everyone roared and applauded. Heck, I knew what he meant, but I had to shake my head at a guy who talked so much about accuracy and precision just blowing off his own error like that.
Biblefan, just for your own edification, you should search around for posts on PFAL's infallibility. There's a guy here who maintains steadfastly that Piffle and other of Wierwille's writings are, like, a new revelation that supercedes the Bible, it's God-breathed, all that.
In 1996, the mini-MOG where we lived said quite clearly that if one was separated from TWI, the spirit within them dies, and shortly thereafter the physical body dies also. I always figured he got that from his hero the MOGFODAT.
quote: Remember that stupid "Believer's Family Class"? Remember Martinpuke teaching that it is OK for single people to get laid once they get "of age" and aren't married?
WN, our bc once said that you don't buy the car without test driving it first! Like it was mandatory to have sex before you got married to make sure you were compatible.
They changed the tithing % and whether it was off the net or gross so often it's a wonder we didn't start questioning everything they taught.
Agape changed from "love of God" to "love of God in the renewed mind" to "Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" to "love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household" back to "love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" and I think back to "love of God".
quote: Despite PFAL being billed as "a class on keys", enabling us all to be able to read and understand the scripture, the "keys" were convenient props to show how wise the MOG was
Actually we all had access to the "keys" but if you weren't MOG or BOT you probably weren't ready to operate them "being BAbes in the word"
quote: As I recall, VPW also changed his teachings on "Bible Kinds of Faith" (pistis, faith, believing) a number of times from the late 60s to the late 70s.
Ya know, after 20 years in twitville, I never understood that teaching. Especially when they got to the Believers the Hall of Fame in Hebrews. My mind swirled for years and years and years on that. Now I know why....cuz it is crap!!
Agreed, Evan. Wierwille taught the Athletes of the Spirit thing first. At first he seemed to teach it like "I know it says armor, but I like to think of it like an athlete" (not an exact quote, but the gist of it). Boy, was that confusing to hear him explaining that what the Word says is secondary to what he wants to think it should say!
I thought it was crap then. It still is. And isn't it telling that one of the few doctrines that Wierwille didn't plagiarize is a piece of junk?!
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JustThinking
"Wrong?" I never heard that word used by TWI of themselves. No, they just got "more clear understanding."
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JustThinking
Oak,
Sorry for the flip answer. One thing that came and went:
Only witnessing to the middle class (never really defined what that meant)
No explanation of that or any other change was ever given that I saw. They just sort of faded away. When asked they would just sort of mumble something like "well, we're not doing that anymore."
Another change was needing 7 new students for a class. It was lowered to 3. No announcement. Just sort of happened.
JT
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Oakspear
posted November 08, 2004 16:45
Once Wierwille's central doctrine and and it's somewhat unique aspects became engraved in the stone of PFAL, where there ever any major changes?
Was there not a PFAL Live by Dr. Victor Paul Weirwille?
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Biblefan Dave
When I took the PFAL class, I heard VPW say that he was not perfect, and that not everything he said was God-breathed. Based upon that, I fully expected that there would be times when the research staff re-checked some teachings and would find problems with the teachings. I fully expected that leaders would be correcting some previous teachings. Now, to be completely honest, I can't recall a time when that was done, but I still expected it to happen, and certainly would not have been surprised by such an announcement.
When VPW taught from Ephesian 6, he never mentioned the pieces of armor actually being athletic gear. LCM came up with that idea. Yet, LCM was a former college football player, thus, it was an agenda-based assumption rather than true biblical research that led to such a teaching. LCM never fully explained how he came to such a conclusion. All he ever said was that they held the ancient Olympics, and that the Greeks had once been in control of that section of the world when Jesus and the Apostles lived. So, in that instance, the teaching was changed from truth to error. They kinda went backwards on that one.
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johniam
Song: Yeah. PFAL '77, but to my knowledge it was never used as a substitute for the '67 PFAL film class, nor did it change any basic doctrine.
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Jim
I believe that there was at least one early collateral reading that was pulled, something on sex and relations. I doubt that there was any mention of it being in error. I was told by an early corps that it was done before VPW fully researched the subject.
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Oakspear
Several modes of change come to my mind during the Martindale days:
- Start teaching the "new" doctrine as if it had always been that way
- Focus on Martindale as the great researcher & apostle who has uncovered "new light"
- Insist that even though Wierwille didn't teach it, he always believed it and was waiting for people to rise up
I don't recall any changes when Wierwille was in power.Link to comment
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Oakspear
I guess the most insidious practice was to treat any innovation by the rank & file as inferior. Heck, you could take one of the "actual errors", point it out to someone, and you were told to "hold it in abeyance" or that you weren't spiritual enough.
Despite PFAL being billed as "a class on keys", enabling us all to be able to read and understand the scripture, the "keys" were convenient props to show how wise the MOG was
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JustThinking
THAT to me is the ultimate Craig Martindale doctrine.
JT
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Nottawayfer
Man oh man, does that bring a memory to me. Remember that stupid "Believer's Family Class"? Remember Martinpuke teaching that it is OK for single people to get laid once they get "of age" and aren't married? Well, I struggled with that for a long time being a divorced 30-something woman. I sat through that damn class scratchin my head. I talked to my TC who didn't have the balls to say "He is wrong" nor would they back up the damn teaching. As a matter of fact they told me if I brought someone home for that purpose, they would be upset. The TC just said "I don't know; talk to the BC." The BC's wife openly promoted going out and getting laid by whomever you pleased. Talk about confusion. This woman said that most of the problems in her fellowship were due to people not getting laid....
-->
Can you say dysfunction???
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alfakat
WRONG--herr vicenstein was the first to teach the Athletes stuff including the change to gear in Eph.6 .... where do you think numbskull loy GOT the idea, bdave?? Better know what you are talking about before opening yap....
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WhiteDove
oak
Yes the number of days from Pentecost until the Ascention changed from 50 to 40 then back for a time. Then there was the long runing sonship adoption battle back and forth over the years.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Wierwille always played the "humble workman of the word" role, admitting that he was always open to correction on his research...NOT! I know of several occasions when people would confront him with some of his errors and he would go ballistic!
There were times, like Whitedove mentioned, when Veepee would announce a "correction" of sorts in some minor doctrinal detail...but I think that a lot of that was contrived, just to give the appearence of "on-going" research.
Probably the biggest doctrinal change that Wierwille made was when he changed his position on tithing. This was just before the huge influx of young people began...Wierwille saw the need to generate some income for this growing organization...and many of the old timers, including Peter Wade, walked away.
Martindale was consumed with being the MOG...to the point of trashing much of Wierwille's work in order to glorify himself. Martindale's doctrines were sophmoric at best...any serious theologian who looked at Martindales "work" would probably soil himself laughing. Actually, I'm surprised that kingokie was able to teach it twice the same way.
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shazdancer
Session 1 went through some changes...
"Need and Want Parallel." In the film, Wierwille put his hands together to indicate that need and want should be parallel to each other (you should need it as much as you want it), and it sure sounded to me like that's what he meant. That's what was taught in Twig as well, though the verses he cites clearly have nothing to do with need and want being equal to each other. Somewhere down the line, it was changed to explain that Wierwille wanted them parallel to the Word, that his hands were held parallel over the Bible he was sitting in front of. If that be true, it was a pretty muddy explanation (red drapes and all that).
"All Without Exception/All Without Distinction." Just bad English, as they basically mean the same thing. In PFAL '77, Wierwille said his "research department" told him he should say it "all with distinction." (Could have said "all without exception or all with exception" and I think it would have been clearer.) He just shrugged and said something like, "But you all knew what I meant, didn't you?" and everyone roared and applauded. Heck, I knew what he meant, but I had to shake my head at a guy who talked so much about accuracy and precision just blowing off his own error like that.
Regards,
Shaz
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TheEvan
True, WierWord© came out with the athletes thing first. I always theorized he shuffled it to the Kreig to help lend the guy some Legitimacy™. We had a sham of a Korps© meeting where we, the (oh so) rank & file could argue the points. We thought & were told we would "discuss" it from the Word™.
Riiiiight.
As alfa & I know too well, Wierwille angrily shouted down the few of us who expressed concerns about the doctrine.
Wierwille said "we'll discuss it from the Word™"
Wierwille meant "you'll find stuff that backs this up".
As usual, of course. Ask anybody who was on his "Research Team"©
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TheEvan
Wierwille was to sound biblical scholarship what Ron Popeil was to classy, subtle marketing
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TheEvan
Biblefan, just for your own edification, you should search around for posts on PFAL's infallibility. There's a guy here who maintains steadfastly that Piffle and other of Wierwille's writings are, like, a new revelation that supercedes the Bible, it's God-breathed, all that.
Not kidding.
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Watered Garden
VPW taught that spirit doesn't die.
In 1996, the mini-MOG where we lived said quite clearly that if one was separated from TWI, the spirit within them dies, and shortly thereafter the physical body dies also. I always figured he got that from his hero the MOGFODAT.
WG
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jardinero
As I recall, VPW also changed his teachings on "Bible Kinds of Faith" (pistis, faith, believing) a number of times from the late 60s to the late 70s.
J.
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Belle
WN, our bc once said that you don't buy the car without test driving it first! Like it was mandatory to have sex before you got married to make sure you were compatible.
They changed the tithing % and whether it was off the net or gross so often it's a wonder we didn't start questioning everything they taught.
Agape changed from "love of God" to "love of God in the renewed mind" to "Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" to "love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household" back to "love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" and I think back to "love of God".
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templelady
Actually we all had access to the "keys" but if you weren't MOG or BOT you probably weren't ready to operate them "being BAbes in the word"
"lacking meeknes" "being debil spurt influenced"
"lacking spritual awareness".......
Mogolatry RULES!!!
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Nottawayfer
Ya know, after 20 years in twitville, I never understood that teaching. Especially when they got to the Believers the Hall of Fame in Hebrews. My mind swirled for years and years and years on that. Now I know why....cuz it is crap!!
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shazdancer
Agreed, Evan. Wierwille taught the Athletes of the Spirit thing first. At first he seemed to teach it like "I know it says armor, but I like to think of it like an athlete" (not an exact quote, but the gist of it). Boy, was that confusing to hear him explaining that what the Word says is secondary to what he wants to think it should say!
I thought it was crap then. It still is. And isn't it telling that one of the few doctrines that Wierwille didn't plagiarize is a piece of junk?!
Regards,
Shaz
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excathedra
shaz, i'm lost in threadville
just wanted to thank you for your post about "bitterness" - people can really try to make you feel guilty and control you, you know ???
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