I was always amazed how martindale elevated his own opinion above any and all other sources. When he was "crowned" king of twi, he entered into a world of delusion that most of us can only imagine. I watched as he routinely and without a second thought, summarily discarded dozens of talented people who had stood faithful for decades...I watched as he gutted the heart and soul of twi...hundreds and then thousands...booted without a regret. The very foundation of twi's success (pfal, the wow program and ROA) was tossed aside and declared to be "old wine" or some such thing...
...And all this for what reason? Because of king okies neurotic paranoia that his followers would somehow be distracted from worshipping him? He couldn't stand the fact that twi followers did not hold him in the same awe that they held Veepee. He had to purge out anyone who had the ability and gumption to call bull.... on him...he demanded unwavering loyalty...even if he had to trash the entire ministry and everyone in it in his quest to be the mog. What a sick puppy...and of course, his loyalists took on his personality traits as they bullied and abused people. Question leadership?...We should have had our heads examined for even considering them to be leaders, let alone questioning them.
"Yet TWI seemed to have this commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Question Leadership". John L, John S, Robert B, Ralph D and others got fired for questioning leadership when that leadership was wrong."
uhmm , i thinks they were fired because they wanted the leadership, not because they really had any intention on blessing "goawds people", but rather they wanted, desired, lusted people to serve double honor or some thing like that towards them> consider john the shroyer for eg
I was always amazed how martindale elevated his own opinion above any and all other sources. When he was "crowned" king of twi, he entered into a world of delusion that most of us can only imagine. I watched as he routinely and without a second thought, summarily discarded dozens of talented people who had stood faithful for decades...I watched as he gutted the heart and soul of twi...hundreds and then thousands...booted without a regret. The very foundation of twi's success (pfal, the wow program and ROA) was tossed aside and declared to be "old wine" or some such thing...
...And all this for what reason? Because of king okies neurotic paranoia that his followers would somehow be distracted from worshipping him? He couldn't stand the fact that twi followers did not hold him in the same awe that they held Veepee. He had to purge out anyone who had the ability and gumption to call bull.... on him...he demanded unwavering loyalty...even if he had to trash the entire ministry and everyone in it in his quest to be the mog. What a sick puppy...and of course, his loyalists took on his personality traits as they bullied and abused people. Question leadership?...We should have had our heads examined for even considering them to be leaders, let alone questioning them.
So, Unc Hair>>> what the f8cK is the difference... am i understanding you that vpw deceived lcm? I do remember VPW pouring oil over LCM's uhmm head, eh?
Not only could you not question leadership, but you also weren't allowed to disagree with them. If they made a decision and you questioned it or said that you thought the other option was better they would scowl at you and very subtly talk about how immature you were in that category.
Everything had to be exactly the way the local leadership wanted it. If the head honcho was coming to your place for a phone hook-up you had to have the right place for them to sit, the right drinks and you had to make sure someone was around to keep the annoying TWIts away from them.
quote:Yet TWI seemed to have this commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Question Leadership".
This is true of every religious body. One may ask questions, but the answers may not be the ones one believes are correct.
There's a set of beliefs, and one may question but only up to a point. When the organization will not change, it's time to move on and join another movement to your liking, or in the case of Martin Luther, start your own movement. I'm glad he did!
Not so oldies, I have attended several denominations since leaving twi, and my questions have always been honestly considered and truthfully answered.
I have yet to attend a church that didn`t wasn`t willing to listen and consider my pov on any doctrinal issue....nor have I been ostrasized when we had to politely agree to disagree.
I have yet to have a body of christians attempt to excuse themselves or move on when we couldn`t agree doctrinally, on the contrary...in most cases, we politely listen and discuss, concidering each others pov, that is how healthy, mature christians operate oldies.
There is a wonderfull methodist minister here at our local church...she has been nothing but gracious to our family...and you better believe I have been obnoxious through my years of twi recovery.....demanding answeres....pushing ...arrogant...for over ten years...when I attend and when I don`t....she has been consitantly compassionate and kind....and truthfully attempted to answere in full any questions...even accepted us into a bible study and let us propound twi stuff.
The statement you made is a disservice to the many great ministers and bretheren that live their lives in service to God.
Have you honestly experienced this since leaving twi.....or are you simply relying on leftover false assumptions aquired while in twi?
Either case....please know that there are wonderfull ministers of God....most of them not tainted with sex scandals nor exibiting the cruelty our leaders did in twi....and very few demanding absolute loyalty, obediance or trust.
quote:Have you honestly experienced this since leaving twi.....or are you simply relying on leftover false assumptions aquired while in twi?
My statement is based upon experience, and common sense. While in TWI, I always got answers to questions. Everytime I wrote a letter to VPW or LCM, I always got a polite answer. Is that what we're talking about here, leaders not responding to questions? if that's the case, then my experience with twi was, I always got polite answers. I have multiple letters to prove it.
Now whether those answers agreed with what I personally thought, is another matter. Here's where I rely on experience and common sense. I think that's what we're discussing here, people changing when challenged with something you think is right?
I may think a doctrine or a policy is incorrect, and I may be absolutely correct. But whether an organization is going to change simply because I think a doctrine or policy is correct is an entirely different matter.
If you've experienced a group that has changed a policy due to your influence, wow, now that's something! I've never experienced that. Most times, more than one voice is needed to change a policy or doctrine, like a consensus of many folks, or committee.
The bible speaks of when folks don't listen to you and what to do ... you move on "shake the dust off your feet". You politely excuse yourself. Also remember the verse "if a man be ignorant, let him be ignorant"?
I've been rejected many more times then I have been accepted. When we were out wow, we gave folks one or two shots if they wanted to believe with us, then if not, we moved on. Arguing only works up to a certain point, then its time to move on.
Do you have a job? What if there's a policy on your job site that you think is wrong, or doesn't make sense, but your bosses think is perfectly ok? you go discuss it with them, and they will politely give you their side of the story, and their decision. You either accept it, or reject it. If you reject it and want to keep the job, you keep your mouth shut and go with the program. If you keep on challenging them, you'll eventually get fired. Such are the way of things.
OM, we all know that you were in a different TWIt experience than the rest of us. Your special experience has been noted. We're talking about the experiences the rest of us have had.
I have challenged several things at the church I currently attend. In fact, I was disgusted with so much of the stuff taught in the "Purpose Driven Life" groups we were having that we quit using the tapes and did more of our own thing during our weekly meetings. We didn't quit just because of me, but rather, because, after hearing what I disagreed with in the teachings, they agreed with me!
My statement is based upon experience, and common sense. While in TWI, I always got answers to questions. Everytime I wrote a letter to VPW or LCM, I always got a polite answer.
I remember years ago writing to VPW because I thought that "Uncle Harry Day" was strongly reminiscent of a RC feast day. I received a polite response from him, not so much answering my point as deflecting it. Starting the next year, however, it was now "Burn the Chaff Day." So maybe back then there was some willingness to listen.
Years later, though, it wouldn't happen. I got booted from TWI for questioning LCM's statement that "the only reason for a space program is military dominance." Sheesh!
oldies, YOU said that being unable to question leaders was true of every religious body.....that is not common sense...that is a misconception due to prejudices aquired in twi.
With alla your answeres you recieved...you also had to put up with a great deal of arrogance and meanness...
I just wanted to let you know that there is healthy christian fellowship and growth outside of twi walls if you do not allow your bias to prevent you from seeking it out.
I mentioned the methodist minister that has loved and supported my family through the years...even though there are years at a time I don`t set foot in her church.....in addition, our karate instructor was able to conduct a bible study that was productive for all members, though every one of us had different back grounds.....he was a leader, as were others in our group...school teachers, foot ball coaches...and none of them were to arrogant to ask questions of.
I have come to believe that the lack of compassion and tollerance exhibited by many twi leaders, was a direct indication of their failings as real spiritual leaders....
Your statement was a direct affront to the really great ministers and leaders that I have met since leaving twi.....
The difference between denominations and TWI was highlighted in the fact that TWI felt they had a corner on the "truth" and others were by the way side. Church organizations arent threatened by others beliefs as profoundly as TWI was. This is why TWI was dominating and controlling in there approach.
Oldies does have a valid point tho, rascal. If you disagree with many (not all) viewpoints of some churches they do have a tendency to view you as a trouble maker. I dont think however, that they whip themselves into a controlling frenzy like TWI leadership did. Its a difference of extremes.
Sky...oldies said that ALL not some but ALL religious religious groups were like twi, in that they did not allow questioning of leadership.....THAT is a misconception aquired while involved with twi ... and to type it out as a fact, is to lie about the great men and women that I have met that are not adverse to questions....nor do they punish you for not accepting their belief.
I was just trying to point out that most people dont like confrontation in any form. Certainly you are right that TWI's dealing with confrontation was wacko, where others are a little more civil about it.
I never questioned leadership to the point of truthfull answers, i thought that i would receive truthfull answers~~~ but nah in all mine TWInty years it seems now that some of the questions still remain in spite internet, an avoidance one is too busy to answer them publickly and hide in the attic.>>> whoops a tangent of thought
If you asked why a certain doctrine existed, the first time around was polite and imparted knowledge.
SO that was okay
If you failed to "understand" that doctrine (lack of understanding being based on Scripture and Common sense) then the next go around was met with considerable hostility and plenty of reproof.
If you were ill fated enough to have gone to step two --you became branded. It was routinely pointed out "lack of meekness" "failure to believe" were major problems for you ON ANY SUBJECT. And it was usually done in a public forum where others could hear, thus teaching them not to ask questions.
Other believers were cautioned about you , that there was Debil Spurt influence Etc.
I've never run into that kind of reaction in any other church either before or since TWI.
WHy not ask leadership questions? Because there were no consistent answers.
When "the present truth" becomes the standard and that truth subject to change at a moments notice--woe betide the leader who answers a question not knowing that the answer he has is now the wrong answer
"I've been rejected many more times then I have been accepted. When we were out wow, we gave folks one or two shots if they wanted to believe with us, then if not, we moved on. Arguing only works up to a certain point, then its time to move on."
The soul purpose of wow was to get people to take the class. Hence the brush off if they do not receive your sales pitch!
Then after ya have a babe for pfal the next pitch would be wow way corp etc right oldie?
This thread reminds me of elementary school. Back then (60s) a lot of teachers were control freaks. If you did anything at all they could possibly perceive as questioning their authority they'd abuse you verbally, physically, and emotionally. This wasn't a perochial school, either.
Yes, in a perfect world it's much easier for teachers if students just shut up and take everything in, but realistically, this can't happen consistently. Our minds are supposed to develop by comparing what we're taught and weeding out whatever doesn't make sense. Isn't it ironic that VP got so much heat for questioning the trinity?
Hey, Rascal, did you question the trinity in that Methodist church? Just curious.
John L and the others in the 2/26/87 letter said nothing to indicate they thought that they ought to be the ones running TWI. The letter detailed their efforts to get the Trustees to get their act together. They wanted to Trustees to do what was right. John L already had a position of leadership at the time, as the DC Limb leader. Later, while heading up CES, John L stepped down as the head of CES while going through a rough time with a relationship. There are simply no facts to support a supposition that John L, Ralph D or the others were trying to take over. If we engage in rumors and speculation, aren't we committing the same acts that caused us to leave TWI anyway.
I don't know about anyone else, but when I was in TWI, I expected leadership to find errors in some of their teachings. In PFAL, VPW said that not everything he said was God-breathed. So, I expected an "oops, we found out it really means this" correction to some of the teachings. I fully expected it. I did have questions about the tithe/abundant sharing things. I had questions about whether or not members of the body of Christ were actually supposed to do more than OT believers did. I did sometimes ask questions. The usual response was to read one of LCM's Way Magazine articles on abundant sharing. That led to more questions such as 15%, where did that come from.
I find a difference between asking leaders questions, and pointing out an error in doctrine, practice, or decision. Way Corps were not often humble enough to apologize for their actions, insisting their actions were intended to help someone, regardless of how much it hurt someone.
Yeah John we had some pretty interesting discussions on the subject at the bible study in the methodist church mentioned....also are the dead alive....dinosaurs.. nothing was off limits. It was also discussed at length in our karate class bible study, which was attended by a diversity of people with a variety of different christian back grounds.
Nobody ever felt the need to get defensive, and almost everybody had good points to make.
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JustThinking
Hmm... Bible? Accused sexual predator?
Tough choice. Not!
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GrouchoMarxJr
I was always amazed how martindale elevated his own opinion above any and all other sources. When he was "crowned" king of twi, he entered into a world of delusion that most of us can only imagine. I watched as he routinely and without a second thought, summarily discarded dozens of talented people who had stood faithful for decades...I watched as he gutted the heart and soul of twi...hundreds and then thousands...booted without a regret. The very foundation of twi's success (pfal, the wow program and ROA) was tossed aside and declared to be "old wine" or some such thing...
...And all this for what reason? Because of king okies neurotic paranoia that his followers would somehow be distracted from worshipping him? He couldn't stand the fact that twi followers did not hold him in the same awe that they held Veepee. He had to purge out anyone who had the ability and gumption to call bull.... on him...he demanded unwavering loyalty...even if he had to trash the entire ministry and everyone in it in his quest to be the mog. What a sick puppy...and of course, his loyalists took on his personality traits as they bullied and abused people. Question leadership?...We should have had our heads examined for even considering them to be leaders, let alone questioning them.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
"Yet TWI seemed to have this commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Question Leadership". John L, John S, Robert B, Ralph D and others got fired for questioning leadership when that leadership was wrong."
uhmm , i thinks they were fired because they wanted the leadership, not because they really had any intention on blessing "goawds people", but rather they wanted, desired, lusted people to serve double honor or some thing like that towards them> consider john the shroyer for eg
rok it Dave!
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
UncleHairy
Holy Grail, I don't need no stinkin Holy Grail
posted November 05, 2004 01:27
I was always amazed how martindale elevated his own opinion above any and all other sources. When he was "crowned" king of twi, he entered into a world of delusion that most of us can only imagine. I watched as he routinely and without a second thought, summarily discarded dozens of talented people who had stood faithful for decades...I watched as he gutted the heart and soul of twi...hundreds and then thousands...booted without a regret. The very foundation of twi's success (pfal, the wow program and ROA) was tossed aside and declared to be "old wine" or some such thing...
...And all this for what reason? Because of king okies neurotic paranoia that his followers would somehow be distracted from worshipping him? He couldn't stand the fact that twi followers did not hold him in the same awe that they held Veepee. He had to purge out anyone who had the ability and gumption to call bull.... on him...he demanded unwavering loyalty...even if he had to trash the entire ministry and everyone in it in his quest to be the mog. What a sick puppy...and of course, his loyalists took on his personality traits as they bullied and abused people. Question leadership?...We should have had our heads examined for even considering them to be leaders, let alone questioning them.
So, Unc Hair>>> what the f8cK is the difference... am i understanding you that vpw deceived lcm? I do remember VPW pouring oil over LCM's uhmm head, eh?
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Belle
Not only could you not question leadership, but you also weren't allowed to disagree with them. If they made a decision and you questioned it or said that you thought the other option was better they would scowl at you and very subtly talk about how immature you were in that category.
Everything had to be exactly the way the local leadership wanted it. If the head honcho was coming to your place for a phone hook-up you had to have the right place for them to sit, the right drinks and you had to make sure someone was around to keep the annoying TWIts away from them.
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oldiesman
There's a set of beliefs, and one may question but only up to a point. When the organization will not change, it's time to move on and join another movement to your liking, or in the case of Martin Luther, start your own movement. I'm glad he did!
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rascal
Not so oldies, I have attended several denominations since leaving twi, and my questions have always been honestly considered and truthfully answered.
I have yet to attend a church that didn`t wasn`t willing to listen and consider my pov on any doctrinal issue....nor have I been ostrasized when we had to politely agree to disagree.
I have yet to have a body of christians attempt to excuse themselves or move on when we couldn`t agree doctrinally, on the contrary...in most cases, we politely listen and discuss, concidering each others pov, that is how healthy, mature christians operate oldies.
There is a wonderfull methodist minister here at our local church...she has been nothing but gracious to our family...and you better believe I have been obnoxious through my years of twi recovery.....demanding answeres....pushing ...arrogant...for over ten years...when I attend and when I don`t....she has been consitantly compassionate and kind....and truthfully attempted to answere in full any questions...even accepted us into a bible study and let us propound twi stuff.
The statement you made is a disservice to the many great ministers and bretheren that live their lives in service to God.
Have you honestly experienced this since leaving twi.....or are you simply relying on leftover false assumptions aquired while in twi?
Either case....please know that there are wonderfull ministers of God....most of them not tainted with sex scandals nor exibiting the cruelty our leaders did in twi....and very few demanding absolute loyalty, obediance or trust.
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oldiesman
Now whether those answers agreed with what I personally thought, is another matter. Here's where I rely on experience and common sense. I think that's what we're discussing here, people changing when challenged with something you think is right?
I may think a doctrine or a policy is incorrect, and I may be absolutely correct. But whether an organization is going to change simply because I think a doctrine or policy is correct is an entirely different matter.
If you've experienced a group that has changed a policy due to your influence, wow, now that's something! I've never experienced that. Most times, more than one voice is needed to change a policy or doctrine, like a consensus of many folks, or committee.
The bible speaks of when folks don't listen to you and what to do ... you move on "shake the dust off your feet". You politely excuse yourself. Also remember the verse "if a man be ignorant, let him be ignorant"?
I've been rejected many more times then I have been accepted. When we were out wow, we gave folks one or two shots if they wanted to believe with us, then if not, we moved on. Arguing only works up to a certain point, then its time to move on.
Do you have a job? What if there's a policy on your job site that you think is wrong, or doesn't make sense, but your bosses think is perfectly ok? you go discuss it with them, and they will politely give you their side of the story, and their decision. You either accept it, or reject it. If you reject it and want to keep the job, you keep your mouth shut and go with the program. If you keep on challenging them, you'll eventually get fired. Such are the way of things.
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Belle
OM, we all know that you were in a different TWIt experience than the rest of us. Your special experience has been noted. We're talking about the experiences the rest of us have had.
I have challenged several things at the church I currently attend. In fact, I was disgusted with so much of the stuff taught in the "Purpose Driven Life" groups we were having that we quit using the tapes and did more of our own thing during our weekly meetings. We didn't quit just because of me, but rather, because, after hearing what I disagreed with in the teachings, they agreed with me!
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Shellon
I have yet to have a church that answered all of my questions.
Christian Reformed: Said I was too assertive and the minister there said he'd like to slap me.
Methodist: Said I shouldn't question what was taught; it's not respectful.
Catholic: Said it was not my 'place' to wonder why things were the way they are.
Covenant Life Church: Told me that so long as I just stayed quiet and listened, God would answer my questions when it was time.
Sheesh, I'd have settled, every time, for a simple 'duh, we have no idea either'.
But isn't that another post and/or talk show?
I certainly hope I'm the exception, not the rule.
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oldiesman
Belle:
You got me curious, what was it that you disagreed with, and what doctrine did they change?Link to comment
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GeorgeStGeorge
I remember years ago writing to VPW because I thought that "Uncle Harry Day" was strongly reminiscent of a RC feast day. I received a polite response from him, not so much answering my point as deflecting it. Starting the next year, however, it was now "Burn the Chaff Day." So maybe back then there was some willingness to listen.
Years later, though, it wouldn't happen. I got booted from TWI for questioning LCM's statement that "the only reason for a space program is military dominance." Sheesh!
George
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Belle
OM, the church didn't change doctrine - the group changed how we were doing the small group meetings.
I posted most of my disagreements on another thread here. I'll try to find it for you. Those are some of the things they agreed with me on.
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rascal
oldies, YOU said that being unable to question leaders was true of every religious body.....that is not common sense...that is a misconception due to prejudices aquired in twi.
With alla your answeres you recieved...you also had to put up with a great deal of arrogance and meanness...
I just wanted to let you know that there is healthy christian fellowship and growth outside of twi walls if you do not allow your bias to prevent you from seeking it out.
I mentioned the methodist minister that has loved and supported my family through the years...even though there are years at a time I don`t set foot in her church.....in addition, our karate instructor was able to conduct a bible study that was productive for all members, though every one of us had different back grounds.....he was a leader, as were others in our group...school teachers, foot ball coaches...and none of them were to arrogant to ask questions of.
I have come to believe that the lack of compassion and tollerance exhibited by many twi leaders, was a direct indication of their failings as real spiritual leaders....
Your statement was a direct affront to the really great ministers and leaders that I have met since leaving twi.....
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sky4it
oldies and rascal:
The difference between denominations and TWI was highlighted in the fact that TWI felt they had a corner on the "truth" and others were by the way side. Church organizations arent threatened by others beliefs as profoundly as TWI was. This is why TWI was dominating and controlling in there approach.
Oldies does have a valid point tho, rascal. If you disagree with many (not all) viewpoints of some churches they do have a tendency to view you as a trouble maker. I dont think however, that they whip themselves into a controlling frenzy like TWI leadership did. Its a difference of extremes.
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rascal
Sky...oldies said that ALL not some but ALL religious religious groups were like twi, in that they did not allow questioning of leadership.....THAT is a misconception aquired while involved with twi ... and to type it out as a fact, is to lie about the great men and women that I have met that are not adverse to questions....nor do they punish you for not accepting their belief.
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sky4it
rascal:
I agree with your comments oh rascal,
I was just trying to point out that most people dont like confrontation in any form. Certainly you are right that TWI's dealing with confrontation was wacko, where others are a little more civil about it.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I never questioned leadership to the point of truthfull answers, i thought that i would receive truthfull answers~~~ but nah in all mine TWInty years it seems now that some of the questions still remain in spite internet, an avoidance one is too busy to answer them publickly and hide in the attic.>>> whoops a tangent of thought
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templelady
THere are questions and then there are questions.
If you asked why a certain doctrine existed, the first time around was polite and imparted knowledge.
SO that was okay
If you failed to "understand" that doctrine (lack of understanding being based on Scripture and Common sense) then the next go around was met with considerable hostility and plenty of reproof.
If you were ill fated enough to have gone to step two --you became branded. It was routinely pointed out "lack of meekness" "failure to believe" were major problems for you ON ANY SUBJECT. And it was usually done in a public forum where others could hear, thus teaching them not to ask questions.
Other believers were cautioned about you , that there was Debil Spurt influence Etc.
I've never run into that kind of reaction in any other church either before or since TWI.
WHy not ask leadership questions? Because there were no consistent answers.
When "the present truth" becomes the standard and that truth subject to change at a moments notice--woe betide the leader who answers a question not knowing that the answer he has is now the wrong answer
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
"I've been rejected many more times then I have been accepted. When we were out wow, we gave folks one or two shots if they wanted to believe with us, then if not, we moved on. Arguing only works up to a certain point, then its time to move on."
The soul purpose of wow was to get people to take the class. Hence the brush off if they do not receive your sales pitch!
Then after ya have a babe for pfal the next pitch would be wow way corp etc right oldie?
Much dust has worn your sandles.
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johniam
This thread reminds me of elementary school. Back then (60s) a lot of teachers were control freaks. If you did anything at all they could possibly perceive as questioning their authority they'd abuse you verbally, physically, and emotionally. This wasn't a perochial school, either.
Yes, in a perfect world it's much easier for teachers if students just shut up and take everything in, but realistically, this can't happen consistently. Our minds are supposed to develop by comparing what we're taught and weeding out whatever doesn't make sense. Isn't it ironic that VP got so much heat for questioning the trinity?
Hey, Rascal, did you question the trinity in that Methodist church? Just curious.
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Oakspear
Just curious or trying to make a point?
I'm just curious...no wait...I'm trying to make a point
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Biblefan Dave
John L and the others in the 2/26/87 letter said nothing to indicate they thought that they ought to be the ones running TWI. The letter detailed their efforts to get the Trustees to get their act together. They wanted to Trustees to do what was right. John L already had a position of leadership at the time, as the DC Limb leader. Later, while heading up CES, John L stepped down as the head of CES while going through a rough time with a relationship. There are simply no facts to support a supposition that John L, Ralph D or the others were trying to take over. If we engage in rumors and speculation, aren't we committing the same acts that caused us to leave TWI anyway.
I don't know about anyone else, but when I was in TWI, I expected leadership to find errors in some of their teachings. In PFAL, VPW said that not everything he said was God-breathed. So, I expected an "oops, we found out it really means this" correction to some of the teachings. I fully expected it. I did have questions about the tithe/abundant sharing things. I had questions about whether or not members of the body of Christ were actually supposed to do more than OT believers did. I did sometimes ask questions. The usual response was to read one of LCM's Way Magazine articles on abundant sharing. That led to more questions such as 15%, where did that come from.
I find a difference between asking leaders questions, and pointing out an error in doctrine, practice, or decision. Way Corps were not often humble enough to apologize for their actions, insisting their actions were intended to help someone, regardless of how much it hurt someone.
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rascal
Yeah John we had some pretty interesting discussions on the subject at the bible study in the methodist church mentioned....also are the dead alive....dinosaurs.. nothing was off limits. It was also discussed at length in our karate class bible study, which was attended by a diversity of people with a variety of different christian back grounds.
Nobody ever felt the need to get defensive, and almost everybody had good points to make.
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