There are parallels, I guess. I don't believe that existentialism has any interest in God, only in the fallibility of the human consciousness, among other things.
Raf, I would be glad to meet with you and you to help mediate a solution between you. I mean, one of you has to take the first step. Otherwise you might end up getting a divorce from you.
(Me and you could work out a reasonable fee for my services. But this could involve maaaaaany sessions.)
I'll forgive me, but first I insist on an apology. If I don't apologize to me, then I don't see how I can forgive me.
As foolish as that might sound, I wonder how many people have ever apologized - to themselves - for bad choices in their lives. People talk to themselves all the time. They write letters to themselves (sometimes called journals) for purposes of self-discovery. Why not take it a step further? Could be therapeutic.
When you think about it, what do we usually tell ourselves about bad choices? We berate the chooser (also ourselves). Why not step into the chooser's shoes (thereby taking responsibility) and apologize?
People don't exactly "divorce" themselves, but they live their lives, estranged to themselves. It's called low self-esteem, among other things, depending on the severity.
if a person does not know who they are , how can they know what a God is?
Satori wow that is exactly what I had to do to myself recently oh man was i trying to blame everyone under the sun for a chice I made that was impulsive and follish and costly to me and my family.
well if she wasnt soo well if they would have only well what about the time....
bottom line I made a bad choice and suffered for it . and then it felt worse of all.. I thought I couldnt recover from the anger at my self.
then I said mj412 move on your an idiot and in cases like these in life God had better come in handy . hopefully.
If we could not forgive ourselves we would end his life pretty quickly.
Not exactly so. Many (if not most) people live out the balance of their lives under some sense of personal guilt. More often, a long (and sometimes forgotten) list of should'ves and could'ves create a generally negative sense of life, building upon a foundation of minor but nagging personal failures.
Me, I forgive myself after all I gotta live with myself.
That's the bottom line. It amounts to taking personal responsibility for your own "redemption." Not eternal redemption - just the remaining years of being you, living your life. Many religions want to keep you from thinking about those. If they control your attention, they define your purpose in life.
When you appraise your own life, your personal sense of purpose is strengthened. You can't meet their goals if you're busy living your own life. If they suspect you're leaning in that direction, they pour on the guilt to suck you back in.
twi had power over us in that they did their darndest to always [make us] question ourselves
True. Most religions do that. It is their parasitic nature to break your knees and then offer you a crutch, with strings (of obligation/debt) attached so they can pull it out from under you, if you should try to walk again on your own.
Yeah we need reproof but the stuff they were shoveling even they could not live it.
That's the point. They mean to keep you feeling perpetually unworthy. Your failure is a prerequisite to their success. As for their own misbehavior and failings, followers who questioned them were regularly raked over the coals. There's nothing about intimidation unique to religion. All leaders of dysfunctional groups practice it. Most followers eventually develop a "blind-spot" where leaders' behavior is concerned. Another name for "blind-spot" is "denial." Another name might be "brainwashing."
A measurement is a fact about something. It is done with some sort of standard - as you would might measure customer satisfaction, unit sales per quarter, etc. This is what I mean by it is objective - it is done with a standard and results in a "truth" about the subject.
However, the paradox in your initial post is when you introduce "perception". That is something that is not objective. It is in the opinion of the person who has the experience. For example, I can go to a doctor who I perceive is competent in his practice, while someone else might perceive he is a quack.
Your example of "customer satisifaction" is what I'm referring to: an objective measurement of a subjective perception. The word "perception" is loaded. "Perception" can refer to a) reception of sensory information, or b) the recognition of its significance. The latter really occurs at a conceptual level - you conceptualize what is perceived, then match or contrast with other familiar concepts, but the word "perception" is used (I think incorrectly) in both cases. Anyway there is sensory perception and also logical perception. Logical perception isn't necessarily "logical," it only means there are comparisons going on.
The best way I can think of to re-word my question is "Can perception be measured? Wouldn't that really be a contradiction?"
As you use the term, perception is measured in terms of relative preference. Your example of the contrasting "perceptions" of a doctor, as competent or as "quack" suggests both are correct from the individuals' perspective. These are not perceptions but opinions, based on perceptions, or just as likely, misperceptions and misunderstandings.
The more variables you introduce, such as biases, past experience, and so on, the less likely measurement is accurate. On the OTHER hand, our little "yardsticks" are as arbitrary as they are ruthless, and as often as not, will quantify nothing more than our personal biases anyway. Probably most of the time.
I guess the thing that makes me go "hmmmmm" about your post is when you say, "objective assessment of what you value". I don't see my opinion as "objective". I see opinions as subjective - they can change as a person changes. Life is a constant.
Your opinion may not be objectively based, but it can be objectively read, or, "measured." You say opinions can change, and that's true. How do we know they change? Because while there may be no science in the universe able to explain why you like green this month and yellow last month, you know for an objective fact that this month is green and last month was yellow. Opinions are personal measurements of appraisal or preference.
bottom line I made a bad choice and suffered for it . and then it felt worse of all.. I thought I couldnt recover from the anger at my self.
then I said mj412 move on your an idiot and in cases like these in life God had better come in handy . hopefully.
mj, we all have "strategies" for lifting the burden of guilt after screwing up. They may approximate forgiveness but they come with their own baggage.
Your example is a good one. You said "move on you're an idiot..." A lot of us use the stupid stick. We do penance for our errors, by punishing ourselves and then moving on. Often part of the penance involves self-degradation, or humiliation.
Rather than truly forgiving ourselves, and releasing the guilt, we pay for our specific "sins" with a less painful sense of general unworthiness. This gets others off our backs, because we steal their thunder. They can't enjoy calling you an idiot as much if you just have.
But have you really forgiven yourself and released your guilt? Or have you just assimilated a specific guilt into a non-specific "sin consciousness" where it will continue to weigh you down?
I am more sensitive to the area I sense failure in.
sometimes more than any other. I often hear your being to hard on yourself from others.
a bad choice is just that Satori a bad choice. and I do suffer the consequences and I do not like it, I wish it wasnt so. hence when I suffer I feel I have no reason other then my own error.
for one area I will say it has taken a life time... 20 or more years before I would even speak of it..and then I did to a perfect stranger in my life. now that is is heavy guilt right?
yes it changed me and weighed me down.
shame and guilt can have very long lasting effect . one can learn of it before they know what it is that burdens them.
I know of this "general unworthiness" you speak of, I have seen it within many women who adhere to the culture in which a womans role is to cater to men and children at the cost of self. We are rewarded in a sense of deeming men and children more worthy than our own happiness or desires .
I think the sin consciousness comes from the fight with evil and goodness I truly try to believe God made me good and wonderful , as He states, but plenty of people use what they consider as goodness and rightness as the measure for another and it hurts on the path of being happy if you let it.
because basicly all folks want is to be loved and accepted and to be yourself mistakes and all takes forgivness of self to survive, and forgivness of self takes self awareness of maybe being different than others.
Here's a thought. Living with the wounds of our own mistakes, not the consequences, but the pain of their memories, may be a result of failing to complete the grieving process. After all, a mistake is a "loss." Sometimes a terrible loss. We may even "die" in some partial way, or even just wish we had. The result of each such experience is an unresolved grief, which must heal if we are to "move on."
Grief occurs in response to the loss of someone or something. The loss may involve a loved one, a job, or possibly a role (student entering the workplace or employee entering retirement). Anyone can experience grief and loss. It can be sudden or expected; however, individuals are unique in how they experience this event. Grief, itself, is a normal and natural response to loss. There are a variety of ways that individuals respond to loss. Some are healthy coping mechanisms and some may hinder the grieving process. It is important to realize that acknowledging the grief promotes the healing process. Time and support facilitate the grieving process, allowing an opportunity to appropriately mourn this loss.
Common Reactions to Loss:
Individuals experiencing grief from a loss may choose a variety of ways of expressing it. No two people will respond to the same loss in the same way. It is important to note that phases of grief exist; however, they do not depict a specific way to respond to loss. Rather, stages of grief reflect a variety of reactions that may surface as an individual makes sense of how this loss affects them. Experiencing and accepting all feelings remains an important part of the healing process.
Denial, numbness, and shock
This serves to protect the individual from experiencing the intensity of the loss.
Numbness is a normal reaction to an immediate loss and should not be confused with "lack of caring".
Denial and disbelief will diminish as the individual slowly acknowledges the impact of this loss and accompanying feelings.
Bargaining
At times, individuals may ruminate about what could have been done to prevent the loss.
Individuals can become preoccupied about ways that things could have been better, imagining all the things that will never be.
This reaction can provide insight into the impact of the loss; however, if not properly resolved, intense feelings of remorse or guilt may hinder the healing process.
Depression
After recognizing the true extent of the loss, some individuals may experience depressive symptoms.
Sleep and appetite disturbance, lack of energy and concentration, and crying spells are some typical symptoms.
Feelings of loneliness, emptiness, isolation, and self-pity can also surface during this phase, contributing to this reactive depression.
For many, this phase must be experienced in order to begin reorganizing one’s life.
Anger
This reaction usually occurs when an individual feels helpless and powerless.
Anger may result from feeling abandoned, occurring in cases of loss through death.
Feelings of resentment may occur toward one’s higher power or toward life in general for the injustice of this loss.
After an individual acknowledges anger, guilt may surface due to expressing these negative feelings.
Again, these feelings are natural and should be honored to resolve the grief.
Acceptance
Time allows the individual an opportunity to resolve the range of feelings that surface.
The grieving process supports the individual. That is, healing occurs when the loss becomes integrated into the individual’s set of life experiences.
Individuals may return to some of the earlier feelings throughout one’s lifetime.
There is no time limit to the grieving process. Each individual should define one’s own healing process.
Factors that may hinder the healing process:
Avoidance or minimization of one’s emotions.
Use of alcohol or drugs to self-medicate.
Use of work (overfunction at workplace) to avoid feelings.
Guidelines that may help resolve grief
Allow time to experience thoughts and feelings openly to self.
Acknowledge and accept all feelings, both positive and negative.
Use a journal to document the healing process.
Confide in a trusted individual; tell the story of the loss.
Express feelings openly. Crying offers a release.
Identify any unfinished business and try to come to a resolution.
Bereavement groups provide an opportunity to share grief with others who have experienced similar loss.
If the healing process becomes too overwhelming, seek professional help.
use of alochol or drugs to self medicate (some will use a bible verse to "feee better" like a quick fix a drink , a all is better now feeling.
Use of work to avoid feelings.
I think while in twi I did all of these things to avoid dealing with the grief and it worked . untill it didnt.
the loss has caused grief , I am numb now , it really has been a series of losses this year starting with my last brother dying, shortly after leaving a much loved job in which I had many close relationships and friendships. the job is harder honestly I keep replaying in my mind what if I or if only, my brother is dead I had to accept it, it was the job that eats at me and I have bargined about for months. I got another fine job of course but the funny thing is I never left the old one, I had so much on my mind to deal with, my new boss did not know why but he sure has a spirit that was kind to me and allowed me much healing. sometimes at work I would look up and see really see my buddies I had worked with before and call them and then realize where I was and they were not.. one girl asked me very quiet what it was (they knew somhow) I would tell her stories of how we used to watch the sun set at work every night I kind of lost my entire family we worked nine hours a day six days a week. and she wispered it sounds nice. like I would go back . hard to explain.
grief is something I tell ya something.
now I am just numb and as much as this last mistake has cost me and it has put me in a very scary place I still feel kind of numb not reacting as I should I think I am floating between many of these stages. I do not have the get and go I once had in me back yet.
I do cry now I didnt for a year I was angry. then I tried to over work but that doesnt work anymore. so to "move on" is very very slow sometimes.
no maybe I do not forgive myself. I sometimes do not think I should for bringing this mess on my own self and then I realize I must , yet it is difficult. it does make one more fearful of the next adventure life brings , like after twi who realy goes full fledge into another "group" and can adjust without the grief process? many did . and that is why I say they never left the cult. they just replaced it.
but I got a new grand baby on the way!!! life is good.
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satori001
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Raf
Well, maybe I was too harsh.
I'll forgive me, but first I insist on an apology. If I don't apologize to me, then I don't see how I can forgive me.
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DaddyHoundog
satori--that sounds very much like existencialism (sp?)
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satori001
There are parallels, I guess. I don't believe that existentialism has any interest in God, only in the fallibility of the human consciousness, among other things.
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igotout
Raf, I would be glad to meet with you and you to help mediate a solution between you. I mean, one of you has to take the first step. Otherwise you might end up getting a divorce from you.
(Me and you could work out a reasonable fee for my services. But this could involve maaaaaany sessions.)
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satori001
When you think about it, what do we usually tell ourselves about bad choices? We berate the chooser (also ourselves). Why not step into the chooser's shoes (thereby taking responsibility) and apologize?
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satori001
People don't exactly "divorce" themselves, but they live their lives, estranged to themselves. It's called low self-esteem, among other things, depending on the severity.
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JustThinking
Satori,
I agree. It wouldn't surprise me if that "put everybody else first" wayfer mentality would have us apologize and forgive everyone BUT ourselves.
JT
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mj412
Satori
if a person does not know who they are , how can they know what a God is?
Satori wow that is exactly what I had to do to myself recently oh man was i trying to blame everyone under the sun for a chice I made that was impulsive and follish and costly to me and my family.
well if she wasnt soo well if they would have only well what about the time....
bottom line I made a bad choice and suffered for it . and then it felt worse of all.. I thought I couldnt recover from the anger at my self.
then I said mj412 move on your an idiot and in cases like these in life God had better come in handy . hopefully.
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frank123lol
If we could not forgive ourselves we would end
this life pretty quickly.
Me,I forgive myself after all I gotta live with myself.
twi had power over us in that they did thier
darndest to always question ourselves
Yeah we need reproof but the stuff they were shoveling even they could not live it.
see ya
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satori001
Originally posted by frank123lol:
If we could not forgive ourselves we would end his life pretty quickly.
Not exactly so. Many (if not most) people live out the balance of their lives under some sense of personal guilt. More often, a long (and sometimes forgotten) list of should'ves and could'ves create a generally negative sense of life, building upon a foundation of minor but nagging personal failures.
Me, I forgive myself after all I gotta live with myself.
That's the bottom line. It amounts to taking personal responsibility for your own "redemption." Not eternal redemption - just the remaining years of being you, living your life. Many religions want to keep you from thinking about those. If they control your attention, they define your purpose in life.
When you appraise your own life, your personal sense of purpose is strengthened. You can't meet their goals if you're busy living your own life. If they suspect you're leaning in that direction, they pour on the guilt to suck you back in.
twi had power over us in that they did their darndest to always [make us] question ourselves
True. Most religions do that. It is their parasitic nature to break your knees and then offer you a crutch, with strings (of obligation/debt) attached so they can pull it out from under you, if you should try to walk again on your own.
Yeah we need reproof but the stuff they were shoveling even they could not live it.
That's the point. They mean to keep you feeling perpetually unworthy. Your failure is a prerequisite to their success. As for their own misbehavior and failings, followers who questioned them were regularly raked over the coals. There's nothing about intimidation unique to religion. All leaders of dysfunctional groups practice it. Most followers eventually develop a "blind-spot" where leaders' behavior is concerned. Another name for "blind-spot" is "denial." Another name might be "brainwashing."
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satori001
Originally posted by ChasUFarley:
A measurement is a fact about something. It is done with some sort of standard - as you would might measure customer satisfaction, unit sales per quarter, etc. This is what I mean by it is objective - it is done with a standard and results in a "truth" about the subject.
However, the paradox in your initial post is when you introduce "perception". That is something that is not objective. It is in the opinion of the person who has the experience. For example, I can go to a doctor who I perceive is competent in his practice, while someone else might perceive he is a quack.
Your example of "customer satisifaction" is what I'm referring to: an objective measurement of a subjective perception. The word "perception" is loaded. "Perception" can refer to a) reception of sensory information, or b) the recognition of its significance. The latter really occurs at a conceptual level - you conceptualize what is perceived, then match or contrast with other familiar concepts, but the word "perception" is used (I think incorrectly) in both cases. Anyway there is sensory perception and also logical perception. Logical perception isn't necessarily "logical," it only means there are comparisons going on.
The best way I can think of to re-word my question is "Can perception be measured? Wouldn't that really be a contradiction?"
As you use the term, perception is measured in terms of relative preference. Your example of the contrasting "perceptions" of a doctor, as competent or as "quack" suggests both are correct from the individuals' perspective. These are not perceptions but opinions, based on perceptions, or just as likely, misperceptions and misunderstandings.
The more variables you introduce, such as biases, past experience, and so on, the less likely measurement is accurate. On the OTHER hand, our little "yardsticks" are as arbitrary as they are ruthless, and as often as not, will quantify nothing more than our personal biases anyway. Probably most of the time.
I guess the thing that makes me go "hmmmmm" about your post is when you say, "objective assessment of what you value". I don't see my opinion as "objective". I see opinions as subjective - they can change as a person changes. Life is a constant.
Your opinion may not be objectively based, but it can be objectively read, or, "measured." You say opinions can change, and that's true. How do we know they change? Because while there may be no science in the universe able to explain why you like green this month and yellow last month, you know for an objective fact that this month is green and last month was yellow. Opinions are personal measurements of appraisal or preference.
Sorry for taking so long to reply.
Regards...
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satori001
Your example is a good one. You said "move on you're an idiot..." A lot of us use the stupid stick. We do penance for our errors, by punishing ourselves and then moving on. Often part of the penance involves self-degradation, or humiliation.
Rather than truly forgiving ourselves, and releasing the guilt, we pay for our specific "sins" with a less painful sense of general unworthiness. This gets others off our backs, because we steal their thunder. They can't enjoy calling you an idiot as much if you just have.
But have you really forgiven yourself and released your guilt? Or have you just assimilated a specific guilt into a non-specific "sin consciousness" where it will continue to weigh you down?
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mj412
I am more sensitive to the area I sense failure in.
sometimes more than any other. I often hear your being to hard on yourself from others.
a bad choice is just that Satori a bad choice. and I do suffer the consequences and I do not like it, I wish it wasnt so. hence when I suffer I feel I have no reason other then my own error.
for one area I will say it has taken a life time... 20 or more years before I would even speak of it..and then I did to a perfect stranger in my life. now that is is heavy guilt right?
yes it changed me and weighed me down.
shame and guilt can have very long lasting effect . one can learn of it before they know what it is that burdens them.
I know of this "general unworthiness" you speak of, I have seen it within many women who adhere to the culture in which a womans role is to cater to men and children at the cost of self. We are rewarded in a sense of deeming men and children more worthy than our own happiness or desires .
I think the sin consciousness comes from the fight with evil and goodness I truly try to believe God made me good and wonderful , as He states, but plenty of people use what they consider as goodness and rightness as the measure for another and it hurts on the path of being happy if you let it.
because basicly all folks want is to be loved and accepted and to be yourself mistakes and all takes forgivness of self to survive, and forgivness of self takes self awareness of maybe being different than others.
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satori001
Here's a thought. Living with the wounds of our own mistakes, not the consequences, but the pain of their memories, may be a result of failing to complete the grieving process. After all, a mistake is a "loss." Sometimes a terrible loss. We may even "die" in some partial way, or even just wish we had. The result of each such experience is an unresolved grief, which must heal if we are to "move on."
What is the "grieving process?" It's been brought up many times on GS & WD, but here it is again, from http://www.uiowa.edu/~ucs/griefloss.html for review:
Coping with Death, Grief, and Loss
What is Grief?
Grief occurs in response to the loss of someone or something. The loss may involve a loved one, a job, or possibly a role (student entering the workplace or employee entering retirement). Anyone can experience grief and loss. It can be sudden or expected; however, individuals are unique in how they experience this event. Grief, itself, is a normal and natural response to loss. There are a variety of ways that individuals respond to loss. Some are healthy coping mechanisms and some may hinder the grieving process. It is important to realize that acknowledging the grief promotes the healing process. Time and support facilitate the grieving process, allowing an opportunity to appropriately mourn this loss.
Common Reactions to Loss:
Individuals experiencing grief from a loss may choose a variety of ways of expressing it. No two people will respond to the same loss in the same way. It is important to note that phases of grief exist; however, they do not depict a specific way to respond to loss. Rather, stages of grief reflect a variety of reactions that may surface as an individual makes sense of how this loss affects them. Experiencing and accepting all feelings remains an important part of the healing process.
Denial, numbness, and shock
This serves to protect the individual from experiencing the intensity of the loss.
Numbness is a normal reaction to an immediate loss and should not be confused with "lack of caring".
Denial and disbelief will diminish as the individual slowly acknowledges the impact of this loss and accompanying feelings.
Bargaining
At times, individuals may ruminate about what could have been done to prevent the loss.
Individuals can become preoccupied about ways that things could have been better, imagining all the things that will never be.
This reaction can provide insight into the impact of the loss; however, if not properly resolved, intense feelings of remorse or guilt may hinder the healing process.
Depression
After recognizing the true extent of the loss, some individuals may experience depressive symptoms.
Sleep and appetite disturbance, lack of energy and concentration, and crying spells are some typical symptoms.
Feelings of loneliness, emptiness, isolation, and self-pity can also surface during this phase, contributing to this reactive depression.
For many, this phase must be experienced in order to begin reorganizing one’s life.
Anger
This reaction usually occurs when an individual feels helpless and powerless.
Anger may result from feeling abandoned, occurring in cases of loss through death.
Feelings of resentment may occur toward one’s higher power or toward life in general for the injustice of this loss.
After an individual acknowledges anger, guilt may surface due to expressing these negative feelings.
Again, these feelings are natural and should be honored to resolve the grief.
Acceptance
Time allows the individual an opportunity to resolve the range of feelings that surface.
The grieving process supports the individual. That is, healing occurs when the loss becomes integrated into the individual’s set of life experiences.
Individuals may return to some of the earlier feelings throughout one’s lifetime.
There is no time limit to the grieving process. Each individual should define one’s own healing process.
Factors that may hinder the healing process:
Avoidance or minimization of one’s emotions.
Use of alcohol or drugs to self-medicate.
Use of work (overfunction at workplace) to avoid feelings.
Guidelines that may help resolve grief
Allow time to experience thoughts and feelings openly to self.
Acknowledge and accept all feelings, both positive and negative.
Use a journal to document the healing process.
Confide in a trusted individual; tell the story of the loss.
Express feelings openly. Crying offers a release.
Identify any unfinished business and try to come to a resolution.
Bereavement groups provide an opportunity to share grief with others who have experienced similar loss.
If the healing process becomes too overwhelming, seek professional help.
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excathedra
wow forgiving yourself and grieving do tie together don't they
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mj412
Factors that may hinder the healing process.
avoidance or minimizatin of one's emotions.
use of alochol or drugs to self medicate (some will use a bible verse to "feee better" like a quick fix a drink , a all is better now feeling.
Use of work to avoid feelings.
I think while in twi I did all of these things to avoid dealing with the grief and it worked . untill it didnt.
the loss has caused grief , I am numb now , it really has been a series of losses this year starting with my last brother dying, shortly after leaving a much loved job in which I had many close relationships and friendships. the job is harder honestly I keep replaying in my mind what if I or if only, my brother is dead I had to accept it, it was the job that eats at me and I have bargined about for months. I got another fine job of course but the funny thing is I never left the old one, I had so much on my mind to deal with, my new boss did not know why but he sure has a spirit that was kind to me and allowed me much healing. sometimes at work I would look up and see really see my buddies I had worked with before and call them and then realize where I was and they were not.. one girl asked me very quiet what it was (they knew somhow) I would tell her stories of how we used to watch the sun set at work every night I kind of lost my entire family we worked nine hours a day six days a week. and she wispered it sounds nice. like I would go back . hard to explain.
grief is something I tell ya something.
now I am just numb and as much as this last mistake has cost me and it has put me in a very scary place I still feel kind of numb not reacting as I should I think I am floating between many of these stages. I do not have the get and go I once had in me back yet.
I do cry now I didnt for a year I was angry. then I tried to over work but that doesnt work anymore. so to "move on" is very very slow sometimes.
no maybe I do not forgive myself. I sometimes do not think I should for bringing this mess on my own self and then I realize I must , yet it is difficult. it does make one more fearful of the next adventure life brings , like after twi who realy goes full fledge into another "group" and can adjust without the grief process? many did . and that is why I say they never left the cult. they just replaced it.
but I got a new grand baby on the way!!! life is good.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
dig that one.
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