Its nice to be able to accept oneself for what one really is, to be able to look in the mirror and see the good the bad and the ugly and accept that it is indeed a part of what makes each one of us who we are. I think manytimes folks judge others based on fear (for starters) and a delusional sense of self righteousness which on closer inspection reveals many of the same traits we find disgusting or distastefull in others.
Yes satori i have forgiven me whatever blame i place upon me. But the mirror ever does speak if one takes each veiwing seriously. And then I have to laugh that my forgivness of myself is nothing more than a reflection of myself. Hence I do forgive myself for being myself, and not a great crime ever i have done as in comparison other mirrors have stared back the viewer.
I have searched within my self only to find I am somewhat a passenger in these bones covered in flesh all alive with much blood and thoughts running through my arteries and veins and a heart that pumps with breath and healing that seems ever so a miracle a scratch is no more.
But there are great and deep wounds that challenge such a body and all its wonders its mind and blood and heart.
Forgiving of one's self is a choice at every crossroad.
Of course I only know what I mean mine words and hope that what i mean has patience those who read.
quote:Originally posted by excathedra:i still am wondering about....
quote:Have you ever wounded, maimed or killed? How far up the food chain? Bugs? Fish? Mammals? Other human beings? Or you've just wanted to, now and then?
If you judge anyone else for any of these things, you cannot help but judge yourself as well. In the court of your conscience, if one is convicted, all are convicted, including yourself
if i step on an ant, is that the same as killing my brother ?
satori, i can't remember wanting to wound, maim or kill.... i swear
my heart bled for my brothers when they were molested by a priest before they reached puberty. i don't know what i wanted to "do" to father butler. i was glad to see him exposed years and years later but i was hurt it took so long
What matters (speaking only of forgiveness) is how you think and feel now. Obviously killing an insect or animal is not the same as killing a person.
On the other hand, if one kills any harmless creature with malice, it is not the creature's insignificance but the malice that is recorded. Whether the malice is understandable or justifiable is irrelevant. It is there.
What is the effect of indwelling malice upon the heart? We can guess, but experience is a better teacher, and we've seen the effect in others, if not ourselves. It is toxic.
Temporary emotions, even toxic ones, are soon washed away. But chronic feelings of anger, grief, fear... those seem to reside in our muscles and organs, our nerves and joints, in our bones and even our breath. They tinge, taint, stain, or infuse the "yardstick" by which we measure the meaning of what enters through our senses, ignoring the good, or subtly altering it to confirm our incipient gloom.
Forgiveness is the release of the objects of those chronic emotions (in a sense, no longer taking them "personally"), and without an anchor they can dissolve away, in time. The "gloom" may or may not lift on its own.
Chronic emotions are opportunistic, and that means we may become addicted to them. Once the original reason for them has departed, they may use every day circumstances to justify themselves. "Just my luck." "That always happens to me." "Same s@#$ different day." They can transfer themselves to other circumstances, or even influence you to create new (negative) circumstances to support them.
Here is where forgiveness (of yourself, or another person) is tricky. Once the initial wound is resolved/released, you may NEED to force yourself to "be positive." Without the initial and essential resolution of forgiveness, forcing "positive thinking" only complicates matters and makes you more miserable. With a resolution it may be necessary, just to break the reflex of habitual, emotional reactions, just like any other habit you mean to drop.
Can I forgive me? Already have. The amazing thing is that God can still choose to forgive me. Now that's cool! It is still beyond my comprehension that he could love me so much. :-)
And this is reason #8,935,345,535,465,532.... why JT isand should not be God. ;-)
Can I forgive me? Already have. The amazing thing is that God can still choose to forgive me. Now that's cool! It is still beyond my comprehension that he could love me so much. :-)
And this is reason #8,935,345,535,465,532.... why JT isand should not be God. ;-)
Now see? To me at least, this apparently "positive confession" indicates an inner self-loathing, or at least the pretense of same. And if pretense is there, it is elsewhere, and close by. You say:
1. The amazing thing is that God can still choose to forgive me.
2. It is still beyond my comprehension that he could love me so much.
You are saying that:
1. You have forgiven yourself - but that:
2. Something about you is so loathsome, so horrible, so evil, so despicable, that you are amazed that God "can still choose to forgive me."
3. Something about you is so loathsome, so horrible, so evil, so despicable, that "it is still beyond my comprehension that he could love me so much."
How does this inconsistency square with having "forgiven" yourself??
If you were to forgive me in the same way, you might say, "I forgive you, you unforgivable awful specimen of human waste product that not even God in His infinite mercy and grace might love, yet somehow does anyway."
If you offered me that sort of forgiveness, I might say to you, "Take a flyin' leap, bucko!" Yet you offer it to yourself, and within this disconnected contortion of "grace," you find no inconsistency. Consciously.
I believe that we may fool our heads, but that our hearts are not so easily deceived.
Now you may say, "But, I've forgiven myself, and I ain't nearly so bad as all that." In that case I might say, "Then why is it so inconceivable that a God of love might love you?"
This is another place we get ourselves in trouble. We become very comfortable with what Bonhoeffer called "cheap grace." Cheap grace is our mental "Get Outta Jail Free" card, that lets us sleep at night. It's like a check written upon a non-existent account, which we write to ourselves. Again, I believe that we may fool our heads, but that our hearts are not so easily deceived.
If we really took our words to heart, we could not use them with such casual disregard. Not just picking on you JT. I think it's a universal human condition. How 'bout them apples?
Bonhoeffer's most famous work is The Cost of Discipleship, first published in 1939. This book is a rigorous exposition and interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount, and Matthew 9:35-10:42. Bonhoeffer's major concern is cheap grace. This is grace that has become so watered down that it no longer resembles the grace of the New Testament, the costly grace of the Gospels.
By the phrase cheap grace, Bonhoeffer means the grace which has brought chaos and destruction; it is the intellectual assent to a doctrine without a real transformation in the sinner's life. It is the justification of the sinner without the works that should accompany the new birth. Bonhoeffer says of cheap grace:
[it] is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.{1}
Real grace, in Bonhoeffer's estimation, is a grace that will cost a man his life. It is the grace made dear by the life of Christ that was sacrificed to purchase man's redemption. Cheap grace arose out of man's desire to be saved, but to do so without becoming a disciple. The doctrinal system of the church with its lists of behavioral codes becomes a substitute for the Living Christ, and this cheapens the meaning of discipleship. The true believer must resist cheap grace and enter the life of active discipleship. Faith can no longer mean sitting still and waiting; the Christian must rise and follow Christ.{2}
Let's not confuse a reference to "doctrine," with a discussion of doctrine. Our TWI background gives us some common (biblical) ground from which to work our way back.
We may find it helpful to walk over it. The entire concept of "forgiveness" is so skewed that we don't know what it means any more, and therefore don't know how to forgive, or to be forgiven.
And that's a problem. A certain other thread is a good example of the confusion.
"2. Something about you is so loathsome, so horrible, so evil, so despicable, that you are amazed that God "can still choose to forgive me."
3. Something about you is so loathsome, so horrible, so evil, so despicable, that "it is still beyond my comprehension that he could love me so much."
I totally agree with this. For this reason I refuse to buy into the doctrine that we are born in sin and only the blood of Christ can save us.
1. I did nothing wrong at birth nor did I do anything in my early and ignorant childhood years which would require "blood" to gain forgiveness.
2. The wrongs I have done in my life, well I've taken an honest look at them, the what, why, how, etc. I can honestly forgive myself because I understand myself. I can accept myself as less than perfect and find no need to become perfect. I can likewise accept others as less than perfect and find no need to make them perfect.
I agree with many principles within Christianity. But like many religions, I also find it to be a bit gruesome and demeaning. Humility is a good thing when it is centered on an honest view from within, but is dangerous when turned into shame.
I agree with many principles within Christianity. But like many religions, I also find it to be a bit gruesome and demeaning. Humility is a good thing when it is centered on an honest view from within, but is dangerous when turned into shame.
Exactly the words I've been looking for in response to this thread.
And you both illustrate the corollary to the forgiveness problem - people don't understand "sin," either.
Sin is nothing to be ashamed of. In fact, "shame" itself is a sin. It is often the outcome of other "sins." To confuse matters a bit, the "absence of shame" isn't necessarily a good thing, if it is due to the presence of something worse, like arrogance.
Shame is more useful than arrogance because shame is transformative - at least, it acknowledges a higher standard (though it also sucks away the will to do anything about it), where arrogance holds no standard higher than the status quo. But both of 'em are sins.
Original sin is the state of separation from God. God may be everywhere, but the separation is very real. Where is it? All around us. That place you are, when you are still, and that is "you" - that is where the separation is.
"Goodness," by the way, does not get you back together with God. Goodness, in fact, is also a sin. Where goodness is good thoughts, good behavior, good works, etc, the "act" of believing it is "good" is the actual sin. "Good" by what standard? What was the original sin? Eating the fruit of...
Owning your own morality may keep you in apparent control, but it separates you from God. Within that good-evil continuum, there is no alternative view. You're either good or bad. But there is a place outside of that continuum which appears when you sell your morality, your house rules, back to God.
So what was the fruit? An apple? No, it was self-judgement, self-ownership - the "self" meaning only that little point of focus called the ego, which we call "I." "I think." "I believe." "I say unto me!" It is a "black hole" whose gravitational force pulls our attention irresistably away from God, toward its own artificial light. We believe if we ever look away, we will cease to exist, we will lose ourselves. It's half-true. We lose the illusion of power held by our artificial (ego-constructed) selves, and find our true selves reflected in God's presence.
A black hole comes to a singularity where all that is drawn can not escape, even light itself~~~ out the window with that theory~~~
A "black hole" (i have read) will by it's nature of gravitational force and at its deepest point, all that attracted its force becomes a singularity. But would not such a oneness also have a release that even escapes the confines that light can be actually held with out escape?
I thinks black holes are another mystery to ponder. Surely light can not be held bound. Even a vacuum cleaner can hold only so much a collection without being changed.
Constipation~~~
or something like that
such is the physical measured in time as the eternal which has no time.
hmmm such a life so short to ponder such grand things as life.
Should you forgive you? Suppose God forgives you, but you just can't forgive yourself? Probably quite common.
How does that affect a person's relationship with
A. God?
B. others?
C. oneself?
Can you even begin to accept the forgiveness of anyone else, including God, without first forgiving yourself? Try to imagine it, if you can.
What is the willingness to be forgiven? Is it conditional self-forgiveness? "I'll forgive me if you will too." Is something like this essential for "believing" in Jesus Christ as Lord?
Abigail, try not to miss the meaning just to indulge in a little contrarianism.
You can say, intellectually (and I have acknowledged), that God is everywhere, therefore there is no "separation."
And yet, there is. You can pretend there is no such thing as "sin," and plenty of people do. You can insist upon holding intellectual belief in lieu of "communion" (the end of sin, or separation), and say you already have it.
But the "you" in there, that point of awareness which responds each time you think the word "me," absent from full and direct AWARENESS of communion with God, is separate from God.
That is the single pivot point - not what we "know," not what we believe, but what we are aware of, and directly aware of.
What is "direct awareness?" Are "you" aware of you? How do you experience "you?" That is, beneath the appearances, thoughts, feelings, you being that which is indivisibly and unchangeably you, the source of your "being." Is your experience of being that of your own presence? Yes, it is (for the sake of argument). Anything less is separateness.
In this sense, we can be nearly as separate from ourselves as from God, regardless of what our intellects may insist to the contrary. The machinery of the intellect may keep us fascinated for a lifetime, so much so, we may forget to look beyond it, behind it, beneath it, for that source from which it springs, in which we live and breath and have our being.
I forgive me. I had a hunger and they promised to fill that hunger. It seemed like they were for a while. When I realized I was letting others dictate who I was and how my life was to be I changed my situation, albeit slowly and painfully.
Do I regret my decisions? sometimes. Do I hate myself for making those decisions? no. I like Maya Angelou's take on things in life, "We do the best we can and when we know better we do better." ...or something along those lines.
I know better, so now I do better. I'm still working on getting the self-esteem back that I lost in TWI, but I'm doing better, MUCH BETTER.
"Abigail, try not to miss the meaning just to indulge in a little contrarianism."
Satori, I was not "indulging in a little contrarianism."
I understand your point, or at least I think I do, and it is a valid one. But mine is equally valid and necessary. As we can get so caught up in our own ego that we lose/let go of (at least temporarily) our oneness with God, so we can get so caught up in thoughts of "sin" or seperateness that we likewise lose our oneness with God.
It is, as with most everything in life, a balancing act.
"In this sense, we can be nearly as separate from ourselves as from God, regardless of what our intellects may insist to the contrary. The machinery of the intellect may keep us fascinated for a lifetime, so much so, we may forget to look beyond it, behind it, beneath it, for that source from which it springs, in which we live and breath and have our being."
Abigail, try not to miss the meaning just to indulge in a little contrarianism.
You can say, intellectually (and I have acknowledged), that God is everywhere, therefore there is no "separation."
And yet, there is. You can pretend there is no such thing as "sin," and plenty of people do. You can insist upon holding intellectual belief in lieu of "communion" (the end of sin, or separation), and say you already have it.
But the "you" in there, that point of awareness which responds each time you think the word "me," absent from full and direct AWARENESS of communion with God, is separate from God.
That is the single pivot point - not what we "know," not what we believe, but what we are aware of, and directly aware of.
What is "direct awareness?" Are "you" aware of you? How do you experience "you?" That is, beneath the appearances, thoughts, feelings, you being that which is indivisibly and unchangeably you, the source of your "being." Is your experience of _being _that of your own presence? Yes, it is (for the sake of argument). Anything less is separateness.
In this sense, we can be nearly as separate from ourselves as from God, regardless of what our intellects may insist to the contrary. The machinery of the intellect may keep us fascinated for a lifetime, so much so, we may forget to look beyond it, behind it, beneath it, for that source from which it springs, in which we live and breath and have our being.
great point.
the idea of self seems wrong to some who claim Jesus as Lord. He shall increase I am to decrease verbage and all .
yeT God as a creator says humans are wonderful and in his image...
For God so loved the world he gave ....
I am a part of this world .. The age old struggle of who I am can and has at times got so caught up in the most religous world we live in I am able to deny my own self.
I can get so head strong about what ideals I do suppose Jesus or God may dictate that I forget me. YET their love is all about me.
simply love. it is fun I suppose at times to go about with the party of religous works even if it does feed your ego till your satisfied , indeed forgive at all cost yet inside pray to God almighty with a rage they may get hit by a wayward truck or a train that has slipped off the track to their face.. maybe even a vision if the hurt is strong enough! oh hell yes I have seen this myself!
I try to be honest. I try to be honest if not with anyone eles to myself.
can somone say to me clearly well that is not very christ like thinking shame on me? many times I suppose again on any given day.
but I can not deny God knows me even if I do not know myself... i try different things to come home and inform my own Father well that didnt work out very well. I wonder how many time Jesus laughs out loud at my own attempts at fooling me or the world but never HIM in the quiet hours of who I really am.
I found out the LORD understands me, even if He never did partake in much of the foolishness and sin I have He gets why I went to that particular situation instead of trusting Him. because Im me. So if he in His glory can admit to loving me still I do suppose I also will find my own self worthy of His love.
He is MY own best friend cant lie to the dude , and how many more times will He wait for me to understand it is all about me the whole story of redemption all of what He did was for me the sinner. I am thankful enough to be able to say thank YOU for an eternity.
he didnt save me when I was at peace and full of spirit and able to change the world , He is here now helping me because frankly I admit I need it.
I must be worth something , even if it is just to love Him back sometimes or others who need Him as well. So I carry on full of being a child trying to understand how to grow up. just me. and I am wonderfully made so says God almighty.
I understand your point, or at least I think I do, and it is a valid one. But mine is equally valid and necessary.
1. As we can get so caught up in our own ego that we lose/let go of (at least temporarily) our oneness with God,
2. so we can get so caught up in thoughts of "sin" or seperateness that we likewise lose our oneness with God.
Abigail, you seem to be saying that my position is represented by 1. and yours by 2. But your perspective is entirely different. Are you saying that getting "caught up in... ego," or in "thoughts of 'sin' or separateness" are spiritual hazards along the path of godliness? If so, we are miles apart.
I am saying those who imagine themselves on a path are really lost and wandering through the wilderness, making their way toward a mirage of their own making.
Your presumption is as different from mine as night and day. You seem to be saying that "our oneness with God" is our default state, and that we may lose it due to pride, fear, greed, etc. That's a popular, "new-age" perspective.
I'm saying this: it's ALL part of the mirage, the distractions along the path, and the path itself (as we perceive it). The ego-drama which is the true gulf which separates us from God, creates a false sense of proximity to God by manipulating our emotions. Why? To the ego, survival is all, and what the ego believes it requires to survive is our undivided attention. It will do anything to keep that attention, and if impersonating the path, or God Himself, will do the trick, the ego has the mind's vast resources at its disposal. It's easy as dreaming.
In other words, 1 and 2 are equally valid because neither is valid.
Yes, the ego "creates" God in our own image to prevent us from knowing anything beyond ourselves. The image is a part of ourselves. Until we look away from that image, and the source of that image, we will never see the true God.
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herbiejuan
Its nice to be able to accept oneself for what one really is, to be able to look in the mirror and see the good the bad and the ugly and accept that it is indeed a part of what makes each one of us who we are. I think manytimes folks judge others based on fear (for starters) and a delusional sense of self righteousness which on closer inspection reveals many of the same traits we find disgusting or distastefull in others.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Yes satori i have forgiven me whatever blame i place upon me. But the mirror ever does speak if one takes each veiwing seriously. And then I have to laugh that my forgivness of myself is nothing more than a reflection of myself. Hence I do forgive myself for being myself, and not a great crime ever i have done as in comparison other mirrors have stared back the viewer.
I have searched within my self only to find I am somewhat a passenger in these bones covered in flesh all alive with much blood and thoughts running through my arteries and veins and a heart that pumps with breath and healing that seems ever so a miracle a scratch is no more.
But there are great and deep wounds that challenge such a body and all its wonders its mind and blood and heart.
Forgiving of one's self is a choice at every crossroad.
Of course I only know what I mean mine words and hope that what i mean has patience those who read.
Songster
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satori001
On the other hand, if one kills any harmless creature with malice, it is not the creature's insignificance but the malice that is recorded. Whether the malice is understandable or justifiable is irrelevant. It is there.
What is the effect of indwelling malice upon the heart? We can guess, but experience is a better teacher, and we've seen the effect in others, if not ourselves. It is toxic.
Temporary emotions, even toxic ones, are soon washed away. But chronic feelings of anger, grief, fear... those seem to reside in our muscles and organs, our nerves and joints, in our bones and even our breath. They tinge, taint, stain, or infuse the "yardstick" by which we measure the meaning of what enters through our senses, ignoring the good, or subtly altering it to confirm our incipient gloom.
Forgiveness is the release of the objects of those chronic emotions (in a sense, no longer taking them "personally"), and without an anchor they can dissolve away, in time. The "gloom" may or may not lift on its own.
Chronic emotions are opportunistic, and that means we may become addicted to them. Once the original reason for them has departed, they may use every day circumstances to justify themselves. "Just my luck." "That always happens to me." "Same s@#$ different day." They can transfer themselves to other circumstances, or even influence you to create new (negative) circumstances to support them.
Here is where forgiveness (of yourself, or another person) is tricky. Once the initial wound is resolved/released, you may NEED to force yourself to "be positive." Without the initial and essential resolution of forgiveness, forcing "positive thinking" only complicates matters and makes you more miserable. With a resolution it may be necessary, just to break the reflex of habitual, emotional reactions, just like any other habit you mean to drop.
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JustThinking
Can I forgive me? Already have. The amazing thing is that God can still choose to forgive me. Now that's cool! It is still beyond my comprehension that he could love me so much. :-)
And this is reason #8,935,345,535,465,532.... why JT isand should not be God. ;-)
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satori001
Now see? To me at least, this apparently "positive confession" indicates an inner self-loathing, or at least the pretense of same. And if pretense is there, it is elsewhere, and close by. You say:
1. The amazing thing is that God can still choose to forgive me.
2. It is still beyond my comprehension that he could love me so much.
You are saying that:
1. You have forgiven yourself - but that:
2. Something about you is so loathsome, so horrible, so evil, so despicable, that you are amazed that God "can still choose to forgive me."
3. Something about you is so loathsome, so horrible, so evil, so despicable, that "it is still beyond my comprehension that he could love me so much."
How does this inconsistency square with having "forgiven" yourself??
If you were to forgive me in the same way, you might say, "I forgive you, you unforgivable awful specimen of human waste product that not even God in His infinite mercy and grace might love, yet somehow does anyway."
If you offered me that sort of forgiveness, I might say to you, "Take a flyin' leap, bucko!" Yet you offer it to yourself, and within this disconnected contortion of "grace," you find no inconsistency. Consciously.
I believe that we may fool our heads, but that our hearts are not so easily deceived.
Now you may say, "But, I've forgiven myself, and I ain't nearly so bad as all that." In that case I might say, "Then why is it so inconceivable that a God of love might love you?"
This is another place we get ourselves in trouble. We become very comfortable with what Bonhoeffer called "cheap grace." Cheap grace is our mental "Get Outta Jail Free" card, that lets us sleep at night. It's like a check written upon a non-existent account, which we write to ourselves. Again, I believe that we may fool our heads, but that our hearts are not so easily deceived.
If we really took our words to heart, we could not use them with such casual disregard. Not just picking on you JT. I think it's a universal human condition. How 'bout them apples?
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satori001
Let's not confuse a reference to "doctrine," with a discussion of doctrine. Our TWI background gives us some common (biblical) ground from which to work our way back.
We may find it helpful to walk over it. The entire concept of "forgiveness" is so skewed that we don't know what it means any more, and therefore don't know how to forgive, or to be forgiven.
And that's a problem. A certain other thread is a good example of the confusion.
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Abigail
"2. Something about you is so loathsome, so horrible, so evil, so despicable, that you are amazed that God "can still choose to forgive me."
3. Something about you is so loathsome, so horrible, so evil, so despicable, that "it is still beyond my comprehension that he could love me so much."
I totally agree with this. For this reason I refuse to buy into the doctrine that we are born in sin and only the blood of Christ can save us.
1. I did nothing wrong at birth nor did I do anything in my early and ignorant childhood years which would require "blood" to gain forgiveness.
2. The wrongs I have done in my life, well I've taken an honest look at them, the what, why, how, etc. I can honestly forgive myself because I understand myself. I can accept myself as less than perfect and find no need to become perfect. I can likewise accept others as less than perfect and find no need to make them perfect.
I agree with many principles within Christianity. But like many religions, I also find it to be a bit gruesome and demeaning. Humility is a good thing when it is centered on an honest view from within, but is dangerous when turned into shame.
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CoolWaters
Exactly the words I've been looking for in response to this thread.
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satori001
And you both illustrate the corollary to the forgiveness problem - people don't understand "sin," either.
Sin is nothing to be ashamed of. In fact, "shame" itself is a sin. It is often the outcome of other "sins." To confuse matters a bit, the "absence of shame" isn't necessarily a good thing, if it is due to the presence of something worse, like arrogance.
Shame is more useful than arrogance because shame is transformative - at least, it acknowledges a higher standard (though it also sucks away the will to do anything about it), where arrogance holds no standard higher than the status quo. But both of 'em are sins.
Forgiving yourself has 3 parts:
1. forgive the sinful motive
2. forgive the sinful act
3. forgive the sinful reaction
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satori001
To own forgiveness, relinquish ownership of the sin.
Think of it as selling the sin to God. You must therefore let it go, let God alone have it.
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Abigail
"And you both illustrate the corollary to the forgiveness problem - people don't understand "sin," either."
Would you care to define "sin" so that people can understand it?
I agree that sin is nothing to be ashamed of, yet many people are. I also agree that shame itself can be a sin and yet can also be useful, to a point.
Arrogance is a defense mechanism, either outwardly towards others or inwardly towards oneself as denial.
"To own forgiveness, relinquish ownership of the sin."
Exactly. One must first own the sin and then relinquish it.
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satori001
Sin is turning away from God.
Original sin is the state of separation from God. God may be everywhere, but the separation is very real. Where is it? All around us. That place you are, when you are still, and that is "you" - that is where the separation is.
"Goodness," by the way, does not get you back together with God. Goodness, in fact, is also a sin. Where goodness is good thoughts, good behavior, good works, etc, the "act" of believing it is "good" is the actual sin. "Good" by what standard? What was the original sin? Eating the fruit of...
Owning your own morality may keep you in apparent control, but it separates you from God. Within that good-evil continuum, there is no alternative view. You're either good or bad. But there is a place outside of that continuum which appears when you sell your morality, your house rules, back to God.
So what was the fruit? An apple? No, it was self-judgement, self-ownership - the "self" meaning only that little point of focus called the ego, which we call "I." "I think." "I believe." "I say unto me!" It is a "black hole" whose gravitational force pulls our attention irresistably away from God, toward its own artificial light. We believe if we ever look away, we will cease to exist, we will lose ourselves. It's half-true. We lose the illusion of power held by our artificial (ego-constructed) selves, and find our true selves reflected in God's presence.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
A black hole comes to a singularity where all that is drawn can not escape, even light itself~~~ out the window with that theory~~~
A "black hole" (i have read) will by it's nature of gravitational force and at its deepest point, all that attracted its force becomes a singularity. But would not such a oneness also have a release that even escapes the confines that light can be actually held with out escape?
I thinks black holes are another mystery to ponder. Surely light can not be held bound. Even a vacuum cleaner can hold only so much a collection without being changed.
Constipation~~~
or something like that
such is the physical measured in time as the eternal which has no time.
hmmm such a life so short to ponder such grand things as life.
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satori001
Here's a question that goes along with the first.
Should you forgive you? Suppose God forgives you, but you just can't forgive yourself? Probably quite common.
How does that affect a person's relationship with
A. God?
B. others?
C. oneself?
Can you even begin to accept the forgiveness of anyone else, including God, without first forgiving yourself? Try to imagine it, if you can.
What is the willingness to be forgiven? Is it conditional self-forgiveness? "I'll forgive me if you will too." Is something like this essential for "believing" in Jesus Christ as Lord?
Nightowls wonder.
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
Posted by Abi************
"That place you are, when you are still, and that is "you" - that is where the separation is."
Satori,
If there is to be no duality and only oneness, then even "you" cannot separate yourself from God.
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satori001
Abigail, try not to miss the meaning just to indulge in a little contrarianism.
You can say, intellectually (and I have acknowledged), that God is everywhere, therefore there is no "separation."
And yet, there is. You can pretend there is no such thing as "sin," and plenty of people do. You can insist upon holding intellectual belief in lieu of "communion" (the end of sin, or separation), and say you already have it.
But the "you" in there, that point of awareness which responds each time you think the word "me," absent from full and direct AWARENESS of communion with God, is separate from God.
That is the single pivot point - not what we "know," not what we believe, but what we are aware of, and directly aware of.
What is "direct awareness?" Are "you" aware of you? How do you experience "you?" That is, beneath the appearances, thoughts, feelings, you being that which is indivisibly and unchangeably you, the source of your "being." Is your experience of being that of your own presence? Yes, it is (for the sake of argument). Anything less is separateness.
In this sense, we can be nearly as separate from ourselves as from God, regardless of what our intellects may insist to the contrary. The machinery of the intellect may keep us fascinated for a lifetime, so much so, we may forget to look beyond it, behind it, beneath it, for that source from which it springs, in which we live and breath and have our being.
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Belle
I forgive me. I had a hunger and they promised to fill that hunger. It seemed like they were for a while. When I realized I was letting others dictate who I was and how my life was to be I changed my situation, albeit slowly and painfully.
Do I regret my decisions? sometimes. Do I hate myself for making those decisions? no. I like Maya Angelou's take on things in life, "We do the best we can and when we know better we do better." ...or something along those lines.
I know better, so now I do better. I'm still working on getting the self-esteem back that I lost in TWI, but I'm doing better, MUCH BETTER.
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Abigail
"Abigail, try not to miss the meaning just to indulge in a little contrarianism."
Satori, I was not "indulging in a little contrarianism."
I understand your point, or at least I think I do, and it is a valid one. But mine is equally valid and necessary. As we can get so caught up in our own ego that we lose/let go of (at least temporarily) our oneness with God, so we can get so caught up in thoughts of "sin" or seperateness that we likewise lose our oneness with God.
It is, as with most everything in life, a balancing act.
"In this sense, we can be nearly as separate from ourselves as from God, regardless of what our intellects may insist to the contrary. The machinery of the intellect may keep us fascinated for a lifetime, so much so, we may forget to look beyond it, behind it, beneath it, for that source from which it springs, in which we live and breath and have our being."
Agreed.
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mj412
great point.
the idea of self seems wrong to some who claim Jesus as Lord. He shall increase I am to decrease verbage and all .
yeT God as a creator says humans are wonderful and in his image...
For God so loved the world he gave ....
I am a part of this world .. The age old struggle of who I am can and has at times got so caught up in the most religous world we live in I am able to deny my own self.
I can get so head strong about what ideals I do suppose Jesus or God may dictate that I forget me. YET their love is all about me.
simply love. it is fun I suppose at times to go about with the party of religous works even if it does feed your ego till your satisfied , indeed forgive at all cost yet inside pray to God almighty with a rage they may get hit by a wayward truck or a train that has slipped off the track to their face.. maybe even a vision if the hurt is strong enough! oh hell yes I have seen this myself!
I try to be honest. I try to be honest if not with anyone eles to myself.
can somone say to me clearly well that is not very christ like thinking shame on me? many times I suppose again on any given day.
but I can not deny God knows me even if I do not know myself... i try different things to come home and inform my own Father well that didnt work out very well. I wonder how many time Jesus laughs out loud at my own attempts at fooling me or the world but never HIM in the quiet hours of who I really am.
I found out the LORD understands me, even if He never did partake in much of the foolishness and sin I have He gets why I went to that particular situation instead of trusting Him. because Im me. So if he in His glory can admit to loving me still I do suppose I also will find my own self worthy of His love.
He is MY own best friend cant lie to the dude , and how many more times will He wait for me to understand it is all about me the whole story of redemption all of what He did was for me the sinner. I am thankful enough to be able to say thank YOU for an eternity.
he didnt save me when I was at peace and full of spirit and able to change the world , He is here now helping me because frankly I admit I need it.
I must be worth something , even if it is just to love Him back sometimes or others who need Him as well. So I carry on full of being a child trying to understand how to grow up. just me. and I am wonderfully made so says God almighty.
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satori001
I am saying those who imagine themselves on a path are really lost and wandering through the wilderness, making their way toward a mirage of their own making.
Your presumption is as different from mine as night and day. You seem to be saying that "our oneness with God" is our default state, and that we may lose it due to pride, fear, greed, etc. That's a popular, "new-age" perspective.
I'm saying this: it's ALL part of the mirage, the distractions along the path, and the path itself (as we perceive it). The ego-drama which is the true gulf which separates us from God, creates a false sense of proximity to God by manipulating our emotions. Why? To the ego, survival is all, and what the ego believes it requires to survive is our undivided attention. It will do anything to keep that attention, and if impersonating the path, or God Himself, will do the trick, the ego has the mind's vast resources at its disposal. It's easy as dreaming.
In other words, 1 and 2 are equally valid because neither is valid.
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excathedra
i'm sorry i'm lost, we make up god ?
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satori001
Yes, the ego "creates" God in our own image to prevent us from knowing anything beyond ourselves. The image is a part of ourselves. Until we look away from that image, and the source of that image, we will never see the true God.
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excathedra
thanks, ohmygod i gotta think about that
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Raf
Can you forgive you?
No, I cannot. As far as I'm concerned, I can just go to hell for all I care.
:)-->
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