Nope, Don Wierwille asked for forgiveness...he met the requirement. I am with you on that.
Where do you get that I am telling you whom to forgive? I never intimated it was any of my business at all.
I think you bring up an important point. If someone asks for forgiveness, it is much simpler.
If someone doesn't or denies any wrong doing, we can forgive, but in all likely hood we would need to seperate ourselves from them, otherwise they would continue the abuse. This is certainly true of abusive relationships likewise.
Catcup, We are not assaulting you or geek, no slams or insults have been issued we are simply having a discussion here over the idea that Geek presented....
We have all honestly answered Geeks question, the answeres very, or did he not intend for us to answere? That being the case, he ought not to have posted his thread as a question.
Now in return, I ask you or geek to answere my question, this is how discussion works....cow girl has made it much easier, by providing the scriptures that I would like addressed.
BTW, I respect Geek, and thus the honest interest in how he addresses these scriptures...else I wouldn`t give a damn about his opinion.
I for one do not think the choice to forgive or not to forgive should be so tied to right or wrong....righteous or ---shall I say it....the unrewinded mind...
It comes prety self righteous to say...the high road is only the road where forgiveness is "adverstised"
This topic of forgiveness sparks all kinds of questions.....
Is it a worthy endeavor to warn others of twi's ongoing deception and anti-Christian stance?
Since lcm slandered my reputation to cover his predatory sex stuff and don & howard & rosalie & donna were in cahoots with his decision, does that mean that forgiveness is warranted to all of them to unburden me? :D-->
If self-proclaimed twi is so spiritual, don't they see the NEED to ask for forgiveness?
Since light manifests darkness......don't topical discussions and thought-provoking questions aid all of us to dismantle the trappings of half-truths?
I've gotten to the point that I'm not overflowing with venom every time I discuss Wierwille, Martindale or The Way. I don't plot the destruction of Way HQ or fantasize about assasinating Way leaders. I could probably be civil to any of my former "overseers" if I ran into them at the mall.
Is that forgiveness? If so, then I've forgiven.
However, I think that the premature deaths of the Wierwilles: Vic, Harry and Don was karma in action, and I'm glad that they didn't enjoy long healthy lives. My primary Way Corps tormenter during the nineties is also dead...and I'm happy about it. He got what he deserved.
Would I shed a tear for my former fellowship coordinator who was instrumental in destroying my family if he was the recipient of some form of destruction? Nope.
Does this mean that I haven't forgiven?
If any one of those who hurt me and mine simply said "I'm sorry, I was wrong", I'd embrace them and put their actions out of my mind.
Overall, I think Satori's post summed it up for me. Forgiveness, to me, is not the same as absolution. I think that forgiveness is a gift that I offer to someone, whether they deserve it, ask for it, repent, whatever, or not. My power to forgive is most certainly NOT dependent on anyone else, but maybe Jesus Christ. :)-->
But it also doesn't mean that I ever trust them again, if they are living and unrepentant. Even though I've forgiven someone for their abusive actions towards me, doesn't mean I have to let them babysit my kids, or still run a cult. :D-->
CoolWaters glad to see your font and that you are feeling well enough to post Bday girl.
Since you addressed my post I wanted to clear up a couple of points. First it was not my intent to link Sheldons book to the Way. My remark was really more to Geek I just thought it was interesting that the subject of forgiveness came up today because as I said I had been thinking about it due to being at Sheldons study.
For the record I am not a big fan of the WWJD movement. Mostly I see it is a business to sell cheap trinkets.
I am having a little trouble following your last part of your post
QUOTE:
It has taken all of these last 7 years to build a viable relationship with the congregants of the church which Sheldon pastored...not even considering undoing the damage that his book has done to the reputation of the neighborhood.
So it's very interesting to me that forgiveness of twi and Charles Sheldon are mentioned in the same thread in the first 2 posts...
Needless to say, forgiving is not the same as forgetting...
I'm not sure what damage his book did to Tennesseetown but I grew up in the Cental Park area a few blocks from his church. For sure it is a different place now than even when I was young. I don't think the state of the area today has much to do with Sheldon or his book it is a hundred years removed from his time a lot has changed since then. How is he responsible ?
Quote:
Needless to say, forgiving is not the same as forgetting...
I Agree! but not sure what this has to do with what I posted I don't think Geek or I said it was the same thing.
Charles Sheldon did a lot of good for the city and the Central Park area:
In 1889 he moved west to become pastor of the fledgling Central Congregational Church in Topeka, Kan. He announced he would preach "a Christ for the common people. A Christ who belongs to the rich and poor, the ignorant and learned, the old and young, the good and the bad . . . a Christ who bids us all recognize the Brotherhood of the race, who bids throw open this room to all."
For Sheldon this was not just rhetoric. Topeka was in a depression, and full of disheartened men searching for jobs. Determined to know more about the unemployed, Sheldon put on old clothes and spent a week hunting employment. He tried stores, coal yards and mills to no avail. Finally, he joined laborers shoveling snow from the Santa Fe rail yard tracks at no pay for "the simple joy of working."
He took his experience to the pulpit and realized there was much more he needed to learn about the working man. He decided to spend a week with laborers and professionals, "living as nearly as I could the life they lived, asking them questions about their work, and preaching the gospel to them in whatever way might seem most expedient."
And so Topekans found him riding with streetcar operators one week, attending classes with college students the next, traveling on freight trains with rail workers, attending court with lawyers, going on rounds with doctors, working with businessmen, and pursuing a beat as an unpaid reporter for the local paper.
Not only did this deepen Sheldon's empathy with workers, but it also helped his largely above-working class congregation understand them better. And since he invited everyone he worked with to his church the following Sunday to hear his report on them, many came and some stayed.
Probably his most moving experience was one that awakened Sheldon to the ugly reality of racism. He spent three weeks visiting black people in Topeka, learning firsthand the prejudices they faced. He also became acquainted with Tennesseetown, a destitute community just outside Topeka of freed slaves and their children. It was there he launched an innovation that had an effect not only on Topeka but the nation.
In 1892 the idea of kindergartens came to America from Germany. A year later, with the help of his parishioners, Sheldon started two kindergartens, one at his church and one in Tennesseetown, the first black kindergarten west of the Mississippi. It proved a boon for Tennesseetown mothers desperate for day care. Some of the alumni became leaders in the community. Probably the most prominent was Elisha Scott, whom Sheldon helped attend law school. Scott became a respected Topeka attorney as did his son, Charles Sheldon Scott, who in 1954 argued the winning side of the landmark Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka school desegregation case before the U.S. Supreme Court.
By 1897, Central Church had built a laboratory for one of the first kindergarten-teacher training schools in the nation. Soon its graduates were eagerly snapped up by schools from Maine to Texas.
He kept up his community work, even voluntarily spending a week in jail, which resulted in local prison reforms. His fight against prejudice was highlighted in 1939 by his outcry against the Nazi persecution of Jews.
Sheldon retired from his pulpit in 1919, but continued working, becoming editor-in-chief of the Christian Herald in 1920. As he grew older, he spoke with great anticipation of his new life to come: "It is not death but life I greet . . . when he who loves me calls me home."
When I forgive it is not so much about the one who hurt me as it is about me feeling less hurt.
When I forgive it helps me far more than the ones Im forgiving.
When I hurt another I feel guilty and I think I should ask for forgivness when I realize I am wrong.
I think in the case of twi, few take all the wrongs done personaly ya know like it was because of what they as a certain person performed that another was hurt.. because it was and is a "group think " ideal that snow balled into many getting hurt.
the ideal relationships give and take forgivness and floursih into a deep intimate love that is positive for both.
forgivness is necesary to survive loving anyone on earth.
When my teen son once complained about my own shortcoming in life I asked him to to remember I forgave him when he barfed on me for a year .
such is true love.
but sometimes forgivnes is not about everyone involved in the hurt.
sometimes people do not realize you have been hurt, or sadly do not care if you been hurt.
do I forgive then ?
yes. I do. for me to realize the Saviour was murdered by those He gave His life for it feels like a very easy burden to do so .
but mostly because I gain wisdom within my spirit and energy and strength to endure life as it is for everyone.
I do not all the negative vibes in my soul everyday that being angry brings life.
every single person has felt the sting of betrayal , of being lied to of being used or being wronged in some manner.
forgivness is given as a remedy because it helps us remain healthy and happy .
Wisdom is gained when we fall into trouble when relationships struggle or we get hurt.
wisdom is a fantastic gain in life , but to truly enjoy this gift I have learned I must forgive .
Well it looks like someone did want to talk about this...
There is a lot to take in. It is a hot topic. Please forgive me if it takes a while before I formlate responses :-) But I can say that at least we have considered it, and that's healthy.
What's also pertainent is that when Jesus introduced this concept in the sermon on the mount his audience was predominatly people who had been abused for decades by legalistic Pharasiees.
I also am thinking about the silent majority who have read this thread but not posted: our beloved lurkers. If just one of them gets healed, it was worth it.
This is a topic that deserves deep contemplation, and I have been thinking about it ever since reading Research Geek's initial post.
About the only conclusion I've absolutely reached is that "forgivness" entails the relingquishment of prior feelings of anger and resentment toward the forgiven party.
Sadly, where TWI (The Organization)is concerned, I've still not come anywhere near "forgiveness, largely I guess because it still figures very prominently in the reality of my daily existence---due to the fact that hubby is still "in". Among other "realities", we will probably never own a home because TWI has convinced him that a mortgage is "against The Word". I firmly suspect this will have profound and perhaps, financially devastating consequences in our future---but I digress...
Forgiveness---what a tough nut... I've forgiven everyone who has actually asked for my forgiveness, though I will NEVER EVER trust them in the same way I once did... My memory is still well intact. A couple of former leaders (Fellowship and Branch) have apologized to me for any "hurt they may have caused me". And I have decided to forgive them, even though I also strongly suspect that they DO NOT have a clue as to how seriously their actions did hurt me. I don't think they are capable of understanding at this point. But somehow, that's OK. I just don't have the will or energy of conviction to continue holding anger toward them. Neither of them is in leadership position any longer, and therefore, has little direct influence over my life, or any other Way or former Way person (outside of their own families), for that matter.
I wish I could just forget about The Way altogether, just chalk the experience up to a sort of "psychic anomaly". And I will---when I no longer feel threatened by the power it exerts over my life (if that day ever comes). I think it will be easy to "forgive" them, if forgiveness means the feelings of anger, fear, and resentment disappear...
Once again I would like to thank those people who actually read Geek's post and gave an honest response to an honest question.
I am amazed at the folks who jump on bandwagons here, though, without really understanding the totality of the original question, which was,
"Are we ready for a little forgiveness?"
And that question was set in a specific context, from which some have removed it and decided that forgiveness is being legislated, which it is not.
My posts afterward outline how we both view forgiveness. Some of you have read them THOROUGHLY.
Others of you have NOT, and have jumped on the bandwagon of:
You're telling me that I must forgive
You're telling me who to forgive
You're telling me when to forgive
You're telling me I have to forgive TWI
You're telling me if I don't forgive, I am wrong
If I don't forgive, you are condemning me
You're trying to guilt me into forgiveness
You support giving blanket forgiveness to
VPW & TWI and I've finally found the support I've always wanted on this site-- HOORAY!
None of the above positions accurately reflect what either Geek or I said OR intend.
Geek simply posed a question-- several of them actually, in a specific context, from which they should NOT be removed.
I answered his question speaking for myself, not for you anyone else-- but my answers on this subject reflect my views as well as Geek's.
Rascal: "Geek, I gotta ask you, and anybody else shaking their finger in our collective faces about forgiveness...."
When Rascal wrote this, neither Geek nor any other poster on this thread had adopted the attitude she accused him of.
She also has accused Geek of telling her who to forgive:
"Was it not Geek who was telling me whom *I* am to forgive?"
She has yet to prove he did that or retract that accusation. I think this attitude and false accusation breeds the kind of agression that can and does hurt innocent people.
Song wants to know my position when I have already stated it in my first two posts on this thread. He also missed the primary question at the end of Geek's first post.
Others question whether we have tied forgiveness to being right or wrong. If you read my original two posts you will see that is not the case.
And for me, yes, the answer to Geek's question of whether we are ready for forgiveness, is painfully obvious.
Some people are, some people aren't-- that's neither good nor bad.
But-- some people are so touchy when you even approach the subject of forgiveness that they cannot be reasoned with in a rational way, assume things that are untrue, and begin accusing us of falsehoods by twisting our words and taking them out of context.
We have all had enough false accusations from people in TWI to last a lifetime. We don't need them here.
Here are my two original posts for those of you who find huge threads daunting-- I know I do sometimes:
Rascal: "Geek, I gotta ask you, and anybody else shaking their finger in our collective faces about forgiveness...."
I think any reasonable and rational person reading Geek's original post here would agree that this is not the tone with which Geek wrote his question.
This is a question each person can answer for himself, between him or herself and God.
For myself, I believe the offender (if still alive) needs to apologize before I choose to extend my forgiveness to him, plain and simple.
Just because I choose not to forgive a person who has not asked for it, does not mean I must carry a burden because of it.
I can choose to hold an offender responsible for his actions while NOT carrying bitterness and strife in my heart.
The offender carries the burden. He or she must live with what they have done. And in the case of a sociopath who has no conscience, don't fool yourself into thinking they suffer no consequences. They do. It manifests itself as deficits in many other areas of their lives.
I can, if I so choose, forgive a person who has NOT asked for it. By the way, isn't that what God did for us? Ephesians says in chapter two that God extended his love toward us WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS. We can of free will choose to be like Him and do the same.
While I believe I can extend forgiveness to a person for his or her trespasses against me, I do not believe I have the authority to excuse them for trespasses they have made against others. That is between the offender and the other person.
However, a person CAN choose, to not only not forgive, but to withold forgiveness AND carry such a burden of bitterness and hatred that it perverts their own understanding and viewpoint. That is the case where the acid of hatred hurts the holder as much as whomever they pour it out upon. I have seen that, and it is sad. The person's viewpoint is so distorted and poisoned, they swing out blindly at anything that appears that it MIGHT threaten them-- and sometimes hurt innocent people.
That is the person who needs to take a step back and consider how to hold the offender responsible for heinous deeds that hurt them, and also seek help for the sting of pain that still remains from the damage done by the offender.
Unfair as it is to be injured by an unrepentant party, recovery from this pain takes some work. On the part of the person who is hurt. And it takes time. It takes time for the person to regather their strength, sort things out, gain some perspective, and repeatedly take it to God until they are healed.
I don't think you can demand a horribly injured person to extend complete forgiveness immediately to one who refuses to believe they have done anything wrong.
But I do think loving a person when they are the most unlovable, and forgiving a person when they are the most unforgivable, can be the most Godly act a person can make in their own heart between themselves and God and one of the most Christlike compassionate gestures one person can make toward another human being.
And I believe it is POSSIBLE to do that AND STILL HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.
But one must beware that bitterness does not taint their perspective toward others. I have seen that happen and it ain't purty, folks.
Catcup
Claims to live here
I believe I have the authority to forgive someone who has wronged me-- specifically for the things they have done to ME.
I do not believe though, that I have the authority to absolve anyone for sins they have committed against others.
That is between the offender, the person they offended, and God.
So if I choose to forgive someone for what they did to me, how is it anyone elses business to decide that I have whitewashed an issue? The issue is between myself and the other person, and God.
However, if I decide I have the authority to excuse someone for the sins they committed against another person,
I insert myself in something that is none of my business, and assign myself authority that is God's alone.
I don't get why you are getting on rascal's case, Catcup. She stated what she thought. Just because noone else has said the same thing don't mean nothing.
Neither you nor Research Geek have cornered the market on this subject. As I hope you know.
I'll present my question again-
Research Geek-Why do you ask these questions about forgiveness?
That's not an accusation of contempt but an honest question also.
Rascal made this false accusation against Geek and misrepresented his intent on this thread:
"Was it not Geek who was telling me whom *I* am to forgive?"
As for your claim, as far as I can tell, neither Geek nor I claim to have "cornered the market" on forgiveness. Why do you insinuate we think we have?
And if you want to know why Geek asked these questions on forgiveness, go back and read his original post. He tells you right then and there WHY HE ASKED.
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sky4it
song:
your comment:
Catcup, what is You & Geeks "our stand"?
They are deer hunters.
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sky4it
rascal:
Nope, Don Wierwille asked for forgiveness...he met the requirement. I am with you on that.
Where do you get that I am telling you whom to forgive? I never intimated it was any of my business at all.
I think you bring up an important point. If someone asks for forgiveness, it is much simpler.
If someone doesn't or denies any wrong doing, we can forgive, but in all likely hood we would need to seperate ourselves from them, otherwise they would continue the abuse. This is certainly true of abusive relationships likewise.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Research Geek
posted October 28, 2004 00:30
Hi folks,
I wonder what Jesus would say if he read our posts on Greasespot. That's an interesting question, isn't it?
Catcup
posted October 28, 2004 17:59
I think the answer to Geek's original question is painfully obvious.
No pain, no gain~~~ What then is the answer Catcup?
A simple answer to the original question imo is "yes, that is an interesting question!"
Whoops... the original would be "I wonder what Jesus would say if he read our posts on Greasespot."
Then again, I ask, what is the "painfully obvious." answer?
Mine would be that I don't know.
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rascal
Catcup, We are not assaulting you or geek, no slams or insults have been issued we are simply having a discussion here over the idea that Geek presented....
We have all honestly answered Geeks question, the answeres very, or did he not intend for us to answere? That being the case, he ought not to have posted his thread as a question.
Now in return, I ask you or geek to answere my question, this is how discussion works....cow girl has made it much easier, by providing the scriptures that I would like addressed.
BTW, I respect Geek, and thus the honest interest in how he addresses these scriptures...else I wouldn`t give a damn about his opinion.
Thankyou.
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DaddyHoundog
washingtonweather here...
I for one do not think the choice to forgive or not to forgive should be so tied to right or wrong....righteous or ---shall I say it....the unrewinded mind...
It comes prety self righteous to say...the high road is only the road where forgiveness is "adverstised"
I could not agree less.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
rascal, could you clarify the "We" and "us" please.
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rascal
We and us meaning everyone who has posted here has offered their opinions one way or another in answere to the question posed by Geek...
now it`s his turn to return the courtesy:-)
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GarthP2000
Hey Geek,
How's that flak jacket holding out?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Forgive me rascal, i didn't know if i was included. Ya know, like the person who is always the last one picked for a team.
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skyrider
This topic of forgiveness sparks all kinds of questions.....
Is it a worthy endeavor to warn others of twi's ongoing deception and anti-Christian stance?
Since lcm slandered my reputation to cover his predatory sex stuff and don & howard & rosalie & donna were in cahoots with his decision, does that mean that forgiveness is warranted to all of them to unburden me?
:D-->
If self-proclaimed twi is so spiritual, don't they see the NEED to ask for forgiveness?
Since light manifests darkness......don't topical discussions and thought-provoking questions aid all of us to dismantle the trappings of half-truths?
Lots more questions......but I gotta go.
skyrider
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excathedra
bye sky
:)-->
one thing i know for sure, i don't have to give an answer to human kinds
;)-->
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Oakspear
Hey, I've seen Rascal get emotional...this ain't it
:P-->
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Oakspear
I've gotten to the point that I'm not overflowing with venom every time I discuss Wierwille, Martindale or The Way. I don't plot the destruction of Way HQ or fantasize about assasinating Way leaders. I could probably be civil to any of my former "overseers" if I ran into them at the mall.
Is that forgiveness? If so, then I've forgiven.
However, I think that the premature deaths of the Wierwilles: Vic, Harry and Don was karma in action, and I'm glad that they didn't enjoy long healthy lives. My primary Way Corps tormenter during the nineties is also dead...and I'm happy about it. He got what he deserved.
Would I shed a tear for my former fellowship coordinator who was instrumental in destroying my family if he was the recipient of some form of destruction? Nope.
Does this mean that I haven't forgiven?
If any one of those who hurt me and mine simply said "I'm sorry, I was wrong", I'd embrace them and put their actions out of my mind.
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ex10
Wow, what a hot topic...
Overall, I think Satori's post summed it up for me. Forgiveness, to me, is not the same as absolution. I think that forgiveness is a gift that I offer to someone, whether they deserve it, ask for it, repent, whatever, or not. My power to forgive is most certainly NOT dependent on anyone else, but maybe Jesus Christ.
:)-->
But it also doesn't mean that I ever trust them again, if they are living and unrepentant. Even though I've forgiven someone for their abusive actions towards me, doesn't mean I have to let them babysit my kids, or still run a cult.
:D-->
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rascal
Yeah oak you have...lol like the time that everyone returned to camp sans three of the younger boys on the infamous snipe hunt????
Now THAT was a display of emotion....lmao...amazing how quick that camp emptied out looking for those boys.....hee hee
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WhiteDove
CoolWaters glad to see your font and that you are feeling well enough to post Bday girl.
Since you addressed my post I wanted to clear up a couple of points. First it was not my intent to link Sheldons book to the Way. My remark was really more to Geek I just thought it was interesting that the subject of forgiveness came up today because as I said I had been thinking about it due to being at Sheldons study.
For the record I am not a big fan of the WWJD movement. Mostly I see it is a business to sell cheap trinkets.
I am having a little trouble following your last part of your post
QUOTE:
It has taken all of these last 7 years to build a viable relationship with the congregants of the church which Sheldon pastored...not even considering undoing the damage that his book has done to the reputation of the neighborhood.
So it's very interesting to me that forgiveness of twi and Charles Sheldon are mentioned in the same thread in the first 2 posts...
Needless to say, forgiving is not the same as forgetting...
I'm not sure what damage his book did to Tennesseetown but I grew up in the Cental Park area a few blocks from his church. For sure it is a different place now than even when I was young. I don't think the state of the area today has much to do with Sheldon or his book it is a hundred years removed from his time a lot has changed since then. How is he responsible ?
Quote:
Needless to say, forgiving is not the same as forgetting...
I Agree! but not sure what this has to do with what I posted I don't think Geek or I said it was the same thing.
Charles Sheldon did a lot of good for the city and the Central Park area:
In 1889 he moved west to become pastor of the fledgling Central Congregational Church in Topeka, Kan. He announced he would preach "a Christ for the common people. A Christ who belongs to the rich and poor, the ignorant and learned, the old and young, the good and the bad . . . a Christ who bids us all recognize the Brotherhood of the race, who bids throw open this room to all."
For Sheldon this was not just rhetoric. Topeka was in a depression, and full of disheartened men searching for jobs. Determined to know more about the unemployed, Sheldon put on old clothes and spent a week hunting employment. He tried stores, coal yards and mills to no avail. Finally, he joined laborers shoveling snow from the Santa Fe rail yard tracks at no pay for "the simple joy of working."
He took his experience to the pulpit and realized there was much more he needed to learn about the working man. He decided to spend a week with laborers and professionals, "living as nearly as I could the life they lived, asking them questions about their work, and preaching the gospel to them in whatever way might seem most expedient."
And so Topekans found him riding with streetcar operators one week, attending classes with college students the next, traveling on freight trains with rail workers, attending court with lawyers, going on rounds with doctors, working with businessmen, and pursuing a beat as an unpaid reporter for the local paper.
Not only did this deepen Sheldon's empathy with workers, but it also helped his largely above-working class congregation understand them better. And since he invited everyone he worked with to his church the following Sunday to hear his report on them, many came and some stayed.
Probably his most moving experience was one that awakened Sheldon to the ugly reality of racism. He spent three weeks visiting black people in Topeka, learning firsthand the prejudices they faced. He also became acquainted with Tennesseetown, a destitute community just outside Topeka of freed slaves and their children. It was there he launched an innovation that had an effect not only on Topeka but the nation.
In 1892 the idea of kindergartens came to America from Germany. A year later, with the help of his parishioners, Sheldon started two kindergartens, one at his church and one in Tennesseetown, the first black kindergarten west of the Mississippi. It proved a boon for Tennesseetown mothers desperate for day care. Some of the alumni became leaders in the community. Probably the most prominent was Elisha Scott, whom Sheldon helped attend law school. Scott became a respected Topeka attorney as did his son, Charles Sheldon Scott, who in 1954 argued the winning side of the landmark Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka school desegregation case before the U.S. Supreme Court.
By 1897, Central Church had built a laboratory for one of the first kindergarten-teacher training schools in the nation. Soon its graduates were eagerly snapped up by schools from Maine to Texas.
He kept up his community work, even voluntarily spending a week in jail, which resulted in local prison reforms. His fight against prejudice was highlighted in 1939 by his outcry against the Nazi persecution of Jews.
Sheldon retired from his pulpit in 1919, but continued working, becoming editor-in-chief of the Christian Herald in 1920. As he grew older, he spoke with great anticipation of his new life to come: "It is not death but life I greet . . . when he who loves me calls me home."
And now back to Forgiveness.....
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mj412
When I forgive it is not so much about the one who hurt me as it is about me feeling less hurt.
When I forgive it helps me far more than the ones Im forgiving.
When I hurt another I feel guilty and I think I should ask for forgivness when I realize I am wrong.
I think in the case of twi, few take all the wrongs done personaly ya know like it was because of what they as a certain person performed that another was hurt.. because it was and is a "group think " ideal that snow balled into many getting hurt.
the ideal relationships give and take forgivness and floursih into a deep intimate love that is positive for both.
forgivness is necesary to survive loving anyone on earth.
When my teen son once complained about my own shortcoming in life I asked him to to remember I forgave him when he barfed on me for a year .
such is true love.
but sometimes forgivnes is not about everyone involved in the hurt.
sometimes people do not realize you have been hurt, or sadly do not care if you been hurt.
do I forgive then ?
yes. I do. for me to realize the Saviour was murdered by those He gave His life for it feels like a very easy burden to do so .
but mostly because I gain wisdom within my spirit and energy and strength to endure life as it is for everyone.
I do not all the negative vibes in my soul everyday that being angry brings life.
every single person has felt the sting of betrayal , of being lied to of being used or being wronged in some manner.
forgivness is given as a remedy because it helps us remain healthy and happy .
Wisdom is gained when we fall into trouble when relationships struggle or we get hurt.
wisdom is a fantastic gain in life , but to truly enjoy this gift I have learned I must forgive .
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WhiteDove
Quote: Posted by Research Geek
Does anyone want to talk about this?
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Research Geek
Hi all,
Well it looks like someone did want to talk about this...
There is a lot to take in. It is a hot topic. Please forgive me if it takes a while before I formlate responses :-) But I can say that at least we have considered it, and that's healthy.
What's also pertainent is that when Jesus introduced this concept in the sermon on the mount his audience was predominatly people who had been abused for decades by legalistic Pharasiees.
I also am thinking about the silent majority who have read this thread but not posted: our beloved lurkers. If just one of them gets healed, it was worth it.
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Cherished Child
This is a topic that deserves deep contemplation, and I have been thinking about it ever since reading Research Geek's initial post.
About the only conclusion I've absolutely reached is that "forgivness" entails the relingquishment of prior feelings of anger and resentment toward the forgiven party.
Sadly, where TWI (The Organization)is concerned, I've still not come anywhere near "forgiveness, largely I guess because it still figures very prominently in the reality of my daily existence---due to the fact that hubby is still "in". Among other "realities", we will probably never own a home because TWI has convinced him that a mortgage is "against The Word". I firmly suspect this will have profound and perhaps, financially devastating consequences in our future---but I digress...
Forgiveness---what a tough nut... I've forgiven everyone who has actually asked for my forgiveness, though I will NEVER EVER trust them in the same way I once did... My memory is still well intact. A couple of former leaders (Fellowship and Branch) have apologized to me for any "hurt they may have caused me". And I have decided to forgive them, even though I also strongly suspect that they DO NOT have a clue as to how seriously their actions did hurt me. I don't think they are capable of understanding at this point. But somehow, that's OK. I just don't have the will or energy of conviction to continue holding anger toward them. Neither of them is in leadership position any longer, and therefore, has little direct influence over my life, or any other Way or former Way person (outside of their own families), for that matter.
I wish I could just forget about The Way altogether, just chalk the experience up to a sort of "psychic anomaly". And I will---when I no longer feel threatened by the power it exerts over my life (if that day ever comes). I think it will be easy to "forgive" them, if forgiveness means the feelings of anger, fear, and resentment disappear...
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Catcup
Once again I would like to thank those people who actually read Geek's post and gave an honest response to an honest question.
I am amazed at the folks who jump on bandwagons here, though, without really understanding the totality of the original question, which was,
"Are we ready for a little forgiveness?"
And that question was set in a specific context, from which some have removed it and decided that forgiveness is being legislated, which it is not.
My posts afterward outline how we both view forgiveness. Some of you have read them THOROUGHLY.
Others of you have NOT, and have jumped on the bandwagon of:
You're telling me that I must forgive
You're telling me who to forgive
You're telling me when to forgive
You're telling me I have to forgive TWI
You're telling me if I don't forgive, I am wrong
If I don't forgive, you are condemning me
You're trying to guilt me into forgiveness
You support giving blanket forgiveness to
VPW & TWI and I've finally found the support I've always wanted on this site-- HOORAY!
None of the above positions accurately reflect what either Geek or I said OR intend.
Geek simply posed a question-- several of them actually, in a specific context, from which they should NOT be removed.
I answered his question speaking for myself, not for you anyone else-- but my answers on this subject reflect my views as well as Geek's.
Rascal: "Geek, I gotta ask you, and anybody else shaking their finger in our collective faces about forgiveness...."
When Rascal wrote this, neither Geek nor any other poster on this thread had adopted the attitude she accused him of.
She also has accused Geek of telling her who to forgive:
"Was it not Geek who was telling me whom *I* am to forgive?"
She has yet to prove he did that or retract that accusation. I think this attitude and false accusation breeds the kind of agression that can and does hurt innocent people.
Song wants to know my position when I have already stated it in my first two posts on this thread. He also missed the primary question at the end of Geek's first post.
Others question whether we have tied forgiveness to being right or wrong. If you read my original two posts you will see that is not the case.
And for me, yes, the answer to Geek's question of whether we are ready for forgiveness, is painfully obvious.
Some people are, some people aren't-- that's neither good nor bad.
But-- some people are so touchy when you even approach the subject of forgiveness that they cannot be reasoned with in a rational way, assume things that are untrue, and begin accusing us of falsehoods by twisting our words and taking them out of context.
We have all had enough false accusations from people in TWI to last a lifetime. We don't need them here.
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Catcup
Here are my two original posts for those of you who find huge threads daunting-- I know I do sometimes:
Rascal: "Geek, I gotta ask you, and anybody else shaking their finger in our collective faces about forgiveness...."
I think any reasonable and rational person reading Geek's original post here would agree that this is not the tone with which Geek wrote his question.
This is a question each person can answer for himself, between him or herself and God.
For myself, I believe the offender (if still alive) needs to apologize before I choose to extend my forgiveness to him, plain and simple.
Just because I choose not to forgive a person who has not asked for it, does not mean I must carry a burden because of it.
I can choose to hold an offender responsible for his actions while NOT carrying bitterness and strife in my heart.
The offender carries the burden. He or she must live with what they have done. And in the case of a sociopath who has no conscience, don't fool yourself into thinking they suffer no consequences. They do. It manifests itself as deficits in many other areas of their lives.
I can, if I so choose, forgive a person who has NOT asked for it. By the way, isn't that what God did for us? Ephesians says in chapter two that God extended his love toward us WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS. We can of free will choose to be like Him and do the same.
While I believe I can extend forgiveness to a person for his or her trespasses against me, I do not believe I have the authority to excuse them for trespasses they have made against others. That is between the offender and the other person.
However, a person CAN choose, to not only not forgive, but to withold forgiveness AND carry such a burden of bitterness and hatred that it perverts their own understanding and viewpoint. That is the case where the acid of hatred hurts the holder as much as whomever they pour it out upon. I have seen that, and it is sad. The person's viewpoint is so distorted and poisoned, they swing out blindly at anything that appears that it MIGHT threaten them-- and sometimes hurt innocent people.
That is the person who needs to take a step back and consider how to hold the offender responsible for heinous deeds that hurt them, and also seek help for the sting of pain that still remains from the damage done by the offender.
Unfair as it is to be injured by an unrepentant party, recovery from this pain takes some work. On the part of the person who is hurt. And it takes time. It takes time for the person to regather their strength, sort things out, gain some perspective, and repeatedly take it to God until they are healed.
I don't think you can demand a horribly injured person to extend complete forgiveness immediately to one who refuses to believe they have done anything wrong.
But I do think loving a person when they are the most unlovable, and forgiving a person when they are the most unforgivable, can be the most Godly act a person can make in their own heart between themselves and God and one of the most Christlike compassionate gestures one person can make toward another human being.
And I believe it is POSSIBLE to do that AND STILL HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.
But one must beware that bitterness does not taint their perspective toward others. I have seen that happen and it ain't purty, folks.
Catcup
Claims to live here
I believe I have the authority to forgive someone who has wronged me-- specifically for the things they have done to ME.
I do not believe though, that I have the authority to absolve anyone for sins they have committed against others.
That is between the offender, the person they offended, and God.
So if I choose to forgive someone for what they did to me, how is it anyone elses business to decide that I have whitewashed an issue? The issue is between myself and the other person, and God.
However, if I decide I have the authority to excuse someone for the sins they committed against another person,
I insert myself in something that is none of my business, and assign myself authority that is God's alone.
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Vertical Limit
I don't get why you are getting on rascal's case, Catcup. She stated what she thought. Just because noone else has said the same thing don't mean nothing.
Neither you nor Research Geek have cornered the market on this subject. As I hope you know.
I'll present my question again-
Research Geek-Why do you ask these questions about forgiveness?
That's not an accusation of contempt but an honest question also.
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Catcup
Vertical Limit--
Rascal made this false accusation against Geek and misrepresented his intent on this thread:
"Was it not Geek who was telling me whom *I* am to forgive?"
As for your claim, as far as I can tell, neither Geek nor I claim to have "cornered the market" on forgiveness. Why do you insinuate we think we have?
And if you want to know why Geek asked these questions on forgiveness, go back and read his original post. He tells you right then and there WHY HE ASKED.
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