Song, unless you're joking, I'm guessin' you're not a football fan.
Cheese heads are Green Bay Packer fans. They can often be seen wearing cheesy hats in the shape of a wedge of swiss. Wisconsin's the land of milk and cheese...and cheese heads.
i'm just a big fat *** with nothing better to do do than being a big fat *** because i have nothing better to do than hope my presence here is appreciated because their asses are not big and fat and
Song, unless you're joking, I'm guessin' you're not a football fan.
Cheese heads are Green Bay Packer fans. They can often be seen wearing cheesy hats in the shape of a wedge of swiss. Wisconsin's the land of milk and cheese...and cheese heads.
Linda Z, I used to be a football fan many a year ago dating back to the Miami Dolphins. Gave up watching the millionares playing sports. I'd blow out a or 2 knee for 10 mil a year.
I dig the Olympic Games.
But I thinks Ravens Rule!!! & the Dallas Cowboy's cheerleaders have a great team of a s s!!!
Eek, Song! The ravens??? The a -->rch rivals of my home team? The team built by that little weasel Art Modell. I'm sooooooooooo disappointed in you. --> -->
Bringing this back up cuz it seems to me and has been evident in my own life that forgiving myself is probably the hardest thing to do and face. Especially when it involves or involved other people.
And as life is, people are always involved in one way or another, cuz just one little ole life affects quite a few imo.
So i think there are many good points brought up here by Research Geek on this thread. And my intent is not to restart any hurt. But to look at forgiveness in a different way.
To think of it as sort of a fringe benefit of Love.
Something that works right along side of it and blends so well.
So when the love gets bigger the forgiveness just naturally follows.
Not to say that if i don't forgive that i don't love.
It's just not something i push myself to do untill i started thinking about forgiving myself.
Which put it in a different perspective in my life.
So anyways....thanks for the points you made here Geek.
I'm faced everyday with the decision to 'forgive' or 'not to forgive'. Not concerning anyone or anything that has hurt me regarding the Way. I had nothing but wonderful times and truly meaningful friendships while in TWI, however I do see the need to 'stay away' from an organization that supported those who preyed against others of the 'household'. God did say be especially KIND to the household of faith, and that if anyone does anything against one of the least of these our brethern, they do it unto HIM.
I suppose I was removed from the Ministry before all that garbage happened and the great divide, but I WAS at the Advanced Class in Ohio (the live one) and I remember VPW saying that after he passed there would be a Big Separation, and there WOULD be a leader he trusted who would BETRAY HIM and try to Take over the Ministry. I felt then that I was looking at CM. I had a strong feeling of mistrust about that man years before all this other stuff came about., but Judas betrayed Jesus and still Jesus Forgave him.
I see all the points about forgiveness, and I'm learning this one thing, and I'll explain.
For about 8 yrs now I've had to live with 'hate and bitterness' toward someone I once called a 'friend'. This person gained my trust and then took advantage of my weakness. I had a thriving Printing Business in Arlington WA. I grew ill with neuropathy and Adult onset Diabetes, and had no one else to trust to help me one weekend. This person graciously offered to assist me, but it turned out he STOLE my bank info, signature stamp (which was 50% the actual size of my valid signature) - he moved my equipment out in a HURRY from my rented building, fenced things off to other Printers (who were also supposedly my friends), used a forged legal notice telling others he BOUGHT my business, and sold off my inventory, and owned equipment. I returned to my company only to find it GONE and the local police would NOT help me at all. This forced us into a bankruptcy and we lost our home and dignity. Its been 8 yrs, and I still have not come to terms with this loss, I am now asking myself, WHO is it harming the most, my feelings of bitterness, and hate towards that preditor? He got off scott free, he was laughing all the way to and from the bank - I had to move and restart my life and regain our credit rating (it use to be SPOTLESS, never a late payment, etc.). I've had the struggle and determination to re-build my life, but I've been living in sheer Hate and Bitterness.
I stay home and avoid other human companionship and have only been at my computer to search for 'old friends' mostly those from my past, whom I know I could trust.
Let me tell you, this bitterness, hate and heartache is NOT hurting the Preditor. IT IS HURTING and DESTROYING MY LIFE. SO the only way out of my 'grief and illness' is to LET GO of the Hate, and bitterness and FORGIVE THIS PREDITOR.. for in forgiving him, I can be FREE and no longer a VICTIM. But this is SO HARD. I've prayed, and prayed. Now I'm gonna have to ask for advice on HOW TO LET GO.
God wants us to live a 'more than abundant life'. In forgiving this preditor, I know I can heal. Its not that the Preditor deserves the forgiveness, he doesn't. I deserve peace of mind and others deserve to get to know me. I deserve 'true friendships' and my bitterness has shielded me against making new friendships.
So, while some of you say Jesus would have us Forgive -- its IMPORTANT more to our peace of mind and our spiritual, mental and physical wellness TO FORGIVE.....
Grace is "unmarited devine favor". We can't earn it, its a GIFT from GOD.
I don't have all the answers. I just need to know how to get past this one personal journey of my own. Its ok to acknowledge evil, and to abhore it (even hate it), its just WRONG when that hate consumes our lives and holds us back.....
Before the Way Ministry, I had come from a 'loveless household'. My parents fought all the time, they were miserable, and made us feel miserable about ourselves. Once I left home at 16, and I met the WAY Ministry, and took the PFAL class, I wasn't looking at the people for an example, I was looking at myself in a NEW and wonderful way. I saw myself as Worthy, Loving, and that I had a grand purpose in life. I enjoyed my WOW year, because I got to help others. I was sharing God's love with them. I was doing the program with my heart in the right place whether or not others were.
Since leaving the Way, my life has not been as exciting or as fullfilling.
Where does a person go from TWI and find an organization that doesn't judge you by whether or not you "are Trinitarian"? I have looked - seems most all the churches think if you don't believe Jesus is God, you are Anti-Christ. I know this is not True.
I need to LIVE again.... Without forgiveness towards others (whether or not they deserve it or ask for it) I can't go on and LIVE like this... Ultimately it is God who is the only one who can Forgive. He is the one who has been wronged the most. How do we acquire that 'unconditional love'? As a mother its easy to love my children "unconditionally". Its another thing to forgive, let alone love and trust others again.
Seeking a gentler and happier heart toward others.
Bringing this back up cuz it seems to me and has been evident in my own life that forgiving myself is probably the hardest thing to do and face. Especially when it involves or involved other people.
Wayyyyyyyy too true.
David
Let me tell you, this bitterness, hate and heartache is NOT hurting the Preditor. IT IS HURTING and DESTROYING MY LIFE. SO the only way out of my 'grief and illness' is to LET GO of the Hate, and bitterness and FORGIVE THIS PREDITOR.. for in forgiving him, I can be FREE and no longer a VICTIM. But this is SO HARD. I've prayed, and prayed. Now I'm gonna have to ask for advice on HOW TO LET GO.
Jeannette -- praying with you.
There is a Day coming, when all receive their due. Take the high road. It's hard, but worth it.
For one, you answer the question posed in the original post , IMHO, better than any other response on this thread...never mind how long ago it was started. How forgiving will help YOU...the forgiver. And, you speak from your own heart and point of view. In no way are you telling anyone else they have to forgive someone who wronged them.
No one, therefore, should even hint that it is not your business to forgive. As you say, he doesn't deserve it. Neither do we deserve our forgiveness from God. And, there was a good point brought up on the first page of this thread that applies here. The idea that you cannot forgive someone who hasn't asked for forgiveness washes out when we realize that it is what God did for us.
Oh, but how can you forgive someone who did something so horrible to you? That might imply that we can forgive people who did even worse to us...perhaps something worthy of....death???
But let me repeat what I said above...you are not telling anyone else they have to forgive those who wronged them. And that is the way it has to be. The forgiving can't be because you HAVE to do it.
By forgiving him, you are not condoning what he did. By forgiving us, God is not condoning our sins.
The point so obviously posed by the orinal post on this thread was not that we SHOULD forgive...it was how forgiving can be healing to the forgiver. You obviously saw that point because the healing is what you need.
Anyway, as dmiller (David) posted, I will include myself as well in prayers for you.
Some thoughts that might be of some help - who here would trade shoes
with the twisted person who burned you? It must suck to be him.
What a dark place that person's soul and mind must inhabit, seemingly void of
anything remotely resembling a conscience.
Whatever one sows, one will reap.
This guy has apparently reaped some pretty rotten fruit.
Which strongly indicates IMO (despite the "christian" costume he wore and the act he put on)
that he still belongs to his old merciless gods, and will remain subject to them
for quite some time to come.
I wouldn't trade places with this guy in a million years.
Danny,
Thank you. Thinking of past wrongs against myself in that manner helps. I can see letting someone so wrong to live with their 'old merciless gods' a worse fate than anything that I could devise.
Anyway, it adds meaning to this quote from Karate Kid part II.
Daniel: You could have killed him, couldn't you?
Mr. Miyagi: Aiy.
Daniel: Well, Why didn't you?
Mr. Miyagi: Because Daniel, for man with no forgiveness in heart, life worse punishment than death.
I have to admit that Jesus Christ may not like how I expressed myself toward LCM, TWI and its people who affected me.
All I can say is that I am human and I am sorry if I cannot forgive that ministry for what they have done. For me to do that, I have to hear them apologize straight from their mouths (like that will ever happen ).
same here, FFC. I can forgive individuals their past actions against me, if they are actually repentent. they don't even have to apologize to me directly. I'm not forgiving twi and the leaders who shield it until they come clean. period. I'm in a process of moving on and eventually I'll think very little about them. for now, I have to consider them every day in my reactions to the simplest of things.
God can forgive them, that's up to him. I just don't. if someone offered me the button, I'd push it.
I understand how you guys feel. If you are able to live peaceably with your decisions, more power to you. When I left, I was not able to live peaceably knowing those jackasses owed me an apology and that I would never live to see one from them.
For me, I had to forgive them. It didn't release them from their wrongs, but it allowed me to move on. I learned that my feelings only caused harm to myself. So I had to do something, and that something was forgiveness. That was my way of giving it to God. Ilearned this when I was in a Divorce Care group. I benefitted greatly from the learning I received in that group. It was awesome for cult recovery too!
absolutely Notta. I think the pain of both are very similar. it may be that the process is really the same one, identified by different words. it's a way of separating from our pain and letting it go, accepting that it happened and cannot be changed.
American Heritage Dictionary
for·give
1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2. To renounce anger or resentment against.
3. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).
I do not excuse them. I do not absolve them. renouncing anger is a process, and a healthy goal, but I do it so they don't take up more of my brain than I want them to and I don't call it forgiveness because their slate isn't clean in my book. I'd still push the button.
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excathedra
i don't know. the last few posts are too long for me to read. forgive me.
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Linda Z
Song, unless you're joking, I'm guessin' you're not a football fan.
Cheese heads are Green Bay Packer fans. They can often be seen wearing cheesy hats in the shape of a wedge of swiss. Wisconsin's the land of milk and cheese...and cheese heads.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
forgive me
i'm
i'm
i'm just a big fat *** with nothing better to do do than being a big fat *** because i have nothing better to do than hope my presence here is appreciated because their asses are not big and fat and
nevermind
songster
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I forgive you RG & CC
My fat aZZ is not as large as you two
or sum thing like that
uhhm mutual respect
or something like that
forgive me for i know not what they and you or me do
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
From One Fat A S S To Two Fat A S S E S
Happy Fat A S S HO ~HO Holidays
You fat buts have a little card the CFF family BOT to sind out wishing Happy .... hold Holidays?
oh must be a card where all are smiling
Happy A s s Ho HO le Holiday from my Family To Yours
are you ready for this
hahahahhaha
ah forgive me
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Linda Z, I used to be a football fan many a year ago dating back to the Miami Dolphins. Gave up watching the millionares playing sports. I'd blow out a or 2 knee for 10 mil a year.
I dig the Olympic Games.
But I thinks Ravens Rule!!! & the Dallas Cowboy's cheerleaders have a great team of a s s!!!
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Linda Z
Eek, Song! The ravens??? The a
-->rch rivals of my home team? The team built by that little weasel Art Modell. I'm sooooooooooo disappointed in you. 
--> 
-->
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
"I used to be a football fan many a year ago dating back to the Miami Dolphins"
~~~I used to be~~~
But I thinks
Ravens Rule
& the Jags suck~~~ nevermind~~~
the olympics come around every two years~~~
my my my this RG / CC thread has taken a turn somewhere
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
this thread has no more life than the original post as exposed the first reply
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
seems like Dharma's husband inlaws
type of episode
I dig Dharma's parents as well as Dharma's husband and his parents
just a thot
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CM
Bringing this back up cuz it seems to me and has been evident in my own life that forgiving myself is probably the hardest thing to do and face. Especially when it involves or involved other people.
And as life is, people are always involved in one way or another, cuz just one little ole life affects quite a few imo.
So i think there are many good points brought up here by Research Geek on this thread. And my intent is not to restart any hurt. But to look at forgiveness in a different way.
To think of it as sort of a fringe benefit of Love.
Something that works right along side of it and blends so well.
So when the love gets bigger the forgiveness just naturally follows.
Not to say that if i don't forgive that i don't love.
It's just not something i push myself to do untill i started thinking about forgiving myself.
Which put it in a different perspective in my life.
So anyways....thanks for the points you made here Geek.
They did come to mind.
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jetc57
I'm faced everyday with the decision to 'forgive' or 'not to forgive'. Not concerning anyone or anything that has hurt me regarding the Way. I had nothing but wonderful times and truly meaningful friendships while in TWI, however I do see the need to 'stay away' from an organization that supported those who preyed against others of the 'household'. God did say be especially KIND to the household of faith, and that if anyone does anything against one of the least of these our brethern, they do it unto HIM.
I suppose I was removed from the Ministry before all that garbage happened and the great divide, but I WAS at the Advanced Class in Ohio (the live one) and I remember VPW saying that after he passed there would be a Big Separation, and there WOULD be a leader he trusted who would BETRAY HIM and try to Take over the Ministry. I felt then that I was looking at CM. I had a strong feeling of mistrust about that man years before all this other stuff came about., but Judas betrayed Jesus and still Jesus Forgave him.
I see all the points about forgiveness, and I'm learning this one thing, and I'll explain.
For about 8 yrs now I've had to live with 'hate and bitterness' toward someone I once called a 'friend'. This person gained my trust and then took advantage of my weakness. I had a thriving Printing Business in Arlington WA. I grew ill with neuropathy and Adult onset Diabetes, and had no one else to trust to help me one weekend. This person graciously offered to assist me, but it turned out he STOLE my bank info, signature stamp (which was 50% the actual size of my valid signature) - he moved my equipment out in a HURRY from my rented building, fenced things off to other Printers (who were also supposedly my friends), used a forged legal notice telling others he BOUGHT my business, and sold off my inventory, and owned equipment. I returned to my company only to find it GONE and the local police would NOT help me at all. This forced us into a bankruptcy and we lost our home and dignity. Its been 8 yrs, and I still have not come to terms with this loss, I am now asking myself, WHO is it harming the most, my feelings of bitterness, and hate towards that preditor? He got off scott free, he was laughing all the way to and from the bank - I had to move and restart my life and regain our credit rating (it use to be SPOTLESS, never a late payment, etc.). I've had the struggle and determination to re-build my life, but I've been living in sheer Hate and Bitterness.
I stay home and avoid other human companionship and have only been at my computer to search for 'old friends' mostly those from my past, whom I know I could trust.
Let me tell you, this bitterness, hate and heartache is NOT hurting the Preditor. IT IS HURTING and DESTROYING MY LIFE. SO the only way out of my 'grief and illness' is to LET GO of the Hate, and bitterness and FORGIVE THIS PREDITOR.. for in forgiving him, I can be FREE and no longer a VICTIM. But this is SO HARD. I've prayed, and prayed. Now I'm gonna have to ask for advice on HOW TO LET GO.
God wants us to live a 'more than abundant life'. In forgiving this preditor, I know I can heal. Its not that the Preditor deserves the forgiveness, he doesn't. I deserve peace of mind and others deserve to get to know me. I deserve 'true friendships' and my bitterness has shielded me against making new friendships.
So, while some of you say Jesus would have us Forgive -- its IMPORTANT more to our peace of mind and our spiritual, mental and physical wellness TO FORGIVE.....
Grace is "unmarited devine favor". We can't earn it, its a GIFT from GOD.
I don't have all the answers. I just need to know how to get past this one personal journey of my own. Its ok to acknowledge evil, and to abhore it (even hate it), its just WRONG when that hate consumes our lives and holds us back.....
Before the Way Ministry, I had come from a 'loveless household'. My parents fought all the time, they were miserable, and made us feel miserable about ourselves. Once I left home at 16, and I met the WAY Ministry, and took the PFAL class, I wasn't looking at the people for an example, I was looking at myself in a NEW and wonderful way. I saw myself as Worthy, Loving, and that I had a grand purpose in life. I enjoyed my WOW year, because I got to help others. I was sharing God's love with them. I was doing the program with my heart in the right place whether or not others were.
Since leaving the Way, my life has not been as exciting or as fullfilling.
Where does a person go from TWI and find an organization that doesn't judge you by whether or not you "are Trinitarian"? I have looked - seems most all the churches think if you don't believe Jesus is God, you are Anti-Christ. I know this is not True.
I need to LIVE again.... Without forgiveness towards others (whether or not they deserve it or ask for it) I can't go on and LIVE like this... Ultimately it is God who is the only one who can Forgive. He is the one who has been wronged the most. How do we acquire that 'unconditional love'? As a mother its easy to love my children "unconditionally". Its another thing to forgive, let alone love and trust others again.
Seeking a gentler and happier heart toward others.
Jeannette
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CM
"I felt then that I was looking at CM."
uh...that's not me-u mean LCM i hope!
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dmiller
David
Jeannette -- praying with you.
There is a Day coming, when all receive their due. Take the high road. It's hard, but worth it.
God bless.
David
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TheInvisibleDan
Jeannette,
(a beautiful name, btw)
It's horrible what this person did to you - I got angry just reading about it!
Some thoughts that might be of some help - who here would trade shoes
with the twisted person who burned you? It must suck to be him.
What a dark place that person's soul and mind must inhabit, seemingly void of
anything remotely resembling a conscience.
Whatever one sows, one will reap.
This guy has apparently reaped some pretty rotten fruit.
Which strongly indicates IMO (despite the "christian" costume he wore and the act he put on)
that he still belongs to his old merciless gods, and will remain subject to them
for quite some time to come.
I wouldn't trade places with this guy in a million years.
Yeah, he needs prayers alright (lol). And I'll bet you're not the only one he's
maliciously wronged.
Your prayers may be the only thing that will save him at the cosmic end of things.
However that all works out.
Danny
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dmiller
Amen to that. Remember -- take the *high road*.
It's worth it both now, and in the end. :)
David
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Lifted Up
Jeanette...what a wonderful post.
For one, you answer the question posed in the original post , IMHO, better than any other response on this thread...never mind how long ago it was started. How forgiving will help YOU...the forgiver. And, you speak from your own heart and point of view. In no way are you telling anyone else they have to forgive someone who wronged them.
No one, therefore, should even hint that it is not your business to forgive. As you say, he doesn't deserve it. Neither do we deserve our forgiveness from God. And, there was a good point brought up on the first page of this thread that applies here. The idea that you cannot forgive someone who hasn't asked for forgiveness washes out when we realize that it is what God did for us.
Oh, but how can you forgive someone who did something so horrible to you? That might imply that we can forgive people who did even worse to us...perhaps something worthy of....death???
But let me repeat what I said above...you are not telling anyone else they have to forgive those who wronged them. And that is the way it has to be. The forgiving can't be because you HAVE to do it.
By forgiving him, you are not condoning what he did. By forgiving us, God is not condoning our sins.
The point so obviously posed by the orinal post on this thread was not that we SHOULD forgive...it was how forgiving can be healing to the forgiver. You obviously saw that point because the healing is what you need.
Anyway, as dmiller (David) posted, I will include myself as well in prayers for you.
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Brother Speed
Danny,
Thank you. Thinking of past wrongs against myself in that manner helps. I can see letting someone so wrong to live with their 'old merciless gods' a worse fate than anything that I could devise.
Anyway, it adds meaning to this quote from Karate Kid part II.
Daniel: You could have killed him, couldn't you?
Mr. Miyagi: Aiy.
Daniel: Well, Why didn't you?
Mr. Miyagi: Because Daniel, for man with no forgiveness in heart, life worse punishment than death.
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FreeFromCults
I have to admit that Jesus Christ may not like how I expressed myself toward LCM, TWI and its people who affected me.
All I can say is that I am human and I am sorry if I cannot forgive that ministry for what they have done. For me to do that, I have to hear them apologize straight from their mouths (like that will ever happen
).
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potato
same here, FFC. I can forgive individuals their past actions against me, if they are actually repentent. they don't even have to apologize to me directly. I'm not forgiving twi and the leaders who shield it until they come clean. period. I'm in a process of moving on and eventually I'll think very little about them. for now, I have to consider them every day in my reactions to the simplest of things.
God can forgive them, that's up to him. I just don't. if someone offered me the button, I'd push it.
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Nottawayfer
Free and Potato,
I understand how you guys feel. If you are able to live peaceably with your decisions, more power to you. When I left, I was not able to live peaceably knowing those jackasses owed me an apology and that I would never live to see one from them.
For me, I had to forgive them. It didn't release them from their wrongs, but it allowed me to move on. I learned that my feelings only caused harm to myself. So I had to do something, and that something was forgiveness. That was my way of giving it to God. Ilearned this when I was in a Divorce Care group. I benefitted greatly from the learning I received in that group. It was awesome for cult recovery too!
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potato
absolutely Notta. I think the pain of both are very similar. it may be that the process is really the same one, identified by different words. it's a way of separating from our pain and letting it go, accepting that it happened and cannot be changed.
American Heritage Dictionary
for·give
1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2. To renounce anger or resentment against.
3. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).
I do not excuse them. I do not absolve them. renouncing anger is a process, and a healthy goal, but I do it so they don't take up more of my brain than I want them to and I don't call it forgiveness because their slate isn't clean in my book. I'd still push the button.
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excathedra
i really miss "song"
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polar bear
I couldn't resist this one.
What would Jesus do? I don't like this question. He's not here. I think it has religious connotations.
What or who are you asking people to forgive.
Jesus Christ forgave those who asked for it. He never forgave the religious leaders who were screwing Gods people like they still are to this day.
I don't have any bitterness but let's put things straight. The way is messed up. They do not want to change.
I don't have to forgive them. I will forgive individuals who did not know what they were doing.
As a whole the system of error in the way will not change so all we can do it run............ as far as we can from it.
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