I said in an earlier post someone makes me angry,yet I forgive him. now am I in control of my emotions or is the person who can push my buttons to the point I regret what I may have said or done in defense or fighting with him?
do I need me to forgive him at all ? He certainly isnt sorry .
Twi and some exerpience within it may be the same because of emotions that where played on people got involved in situations they regret. said and did stuff out of character. People tend to get angry when their life is out of their control and I think twi was all about control.
Twi taught me to renew my mind in other words change my mind in other word my way or the highway. It was about interpersonal relationships and how Shaz describes the choices I felt I have.
TWI is a corporate entity, TWI never did anything to anyone. People in TWI did. TWI never taught me anything, nor ever told me to do anything, people in TWI did. Let me rephrase, some people did, not everyone.
The problem in TWI was that a few men and women started corrupting the ideas and ideals of others. Physical details become more important than spiritual details. Obedience became more important than love. Dynamic teaching became more important than accurate teaching.
When TWI as an organization started to fall apart in '87, I viewed it the same way I did as when bad things happened to me on the WOW field. I viewed it as just another bump in the road. I just thought that I would deal with the circumstances as best as I could. I hever thought this bump would be in the road for the next 18 years.
Being the eternal optimist, I actually held hope for many years that somehow, some way, people in TWI would get their act together and bring things back to the Word.
VPW had his faults and he made his mistakes. Adultery and plagarism are wrong, period. Yet, I saw a lot of healing and deliverance when I started with TWI in the mid-70's. If VPW was such a bad person, I don't think that would have happened. I harbor no resentments or bitterness about VPW. I know the law of believing is wrong and that the tithe is no longer applicable (calling it abundant sharing didn't change what was actually being enforced or mandated). No one is perfect, not even VPW. VPW didn't have the corner on true, but that's OK.
I think LCM started with all the best intentions. But, what's the saying, sincerity is no guarantee for truth. LCM is still my brother in Christ. For all of his sinful adulterous affairs, his numerous erroneous teachings, his inept managerial skills, his inept pastoral skills, and his emotional and verbal abuse of God's people, he is still a brother in Christ. I am not anti-LCM, I am anti-error. I am not anti-TWI, I am anti-error. Yet, I know no man is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. That's no excuse for sin and error, but it's God's view of human nature. That's why God that that love covers a multitude of sins. I did not see the same healing and deliverance under LCM's charge that I did when VPW was there. That's not idolization, it's just what I observed. I harbor no bitterness or resentment toward LCM. I do feel sorrow for everyone that was hurt by LCM. Some people are still extremely bitter about what happened with TWI. LCM didn't betray me, he betrayed God. He failed to uphold the responsibilities of ministering to God's people. He failed miserably. Yet, he is still my brother in Christ. So, I can forgive him for any hurt that I felt in the past.
TWI is a corporate entity, TWI never did anything to anyone. People in TWI did. TWI never taught me anything, nor ever told me to do anything, people in TWI did.
If a person is representing a corporate entity, then that person is acting on behalf of the entity. TWI as a corporate entity has representatives. The BOD, any paid staff, any clergy ordained by twi, any other leadership or 'disciple' or person sent out to do the work of twi. If any of these people do anything while representing twi, then twi as a corporate entity did it.
quote:The problem in TWI was that a few men and women started corrupting the ideas and ideals of others.
IMO, the problem in twi was the basic premise of a majority of the beliefs.
VPW believed...and taught...that the king has rights to every woman in the kingdom. He saw himself as the king in the kingdom of twi, so he had whatever woman he pleased.
quote:Being the eternal optimist, I actually held hope for many years that somehow, some way, people in TWI would get their act together and bring things back to the Word.
Oh man. I did the same thing. When I finally realized that there was not one ounce of pure bible that could be associated with twi, I realized that there was no 'word' to come back to.
quote:If VPW was such a bad person, I don't think that would have happened.
Who are you giving the glory to here? VPW was not God. God worked regardless of vpw's "mistakes", not because vpw was a decent man...which he wasn't...and his "mistakes" were not mistakes...they were pre-meditated.
quote:VPW didn't have the corner on true, but that's OK.
He sure told everybody he did. And that's not OK.
quote:I think LCM started with all the best intentions. But, what's the saying, sincerity is no guarantee for truth.
The correct saying for your first statement is, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." The saying you quoted is not a saying anywhere except for in twi.
quote:LCM is still my brother in Christ.
This is questionable.
TWI teaches an absent Christ and replaces the Christ with everything else. Until one comes to Jesus, there is no way for them to have the 'born again' experience.
TWI leads away from Jesus.
There's no way of knowing if anybody in twi ever was or is born again.
quote:Everyone makes mistakes. That's no excuse for sin and error, but it's God's view of human nature.
Huh? I don't get this.
quote:I did not see the same healing and deliverance under LCM's charge that I did when VPW was there. That's not idolization, it's just what I observed.
This still does not mean that vpw was anything at all...unless vpw is now taking the place of the absent god.
quote:... VPW had his faults and he made his mistakes. Adultery and plagarism are wrong, period. Yet, I saw a lot of healing and deliverance when I started with TWI in the mid-70's. If VPW was such a bad person, I don't think that would have happened. ...
I had to quote this to make sure I wasn't imagining it... am I seeing things? there are others besides me who feel this way?
. -- "good things" happened at fellowships associated with, but not directly "run" by vpw and, by extension, twi, and therefore vpw in con clusion is "not such a bad person". Did I state that correctly as stated above by bibledave and seconded by om-man???
.
.
. WTF?????? -- how does that follow?? sorry, folks, that is abyssmal logic. WHERE IS GOD ALMIGHTY IN THAT PREMISE????????
Did vicster teleport to homes all over the country and do the miracles and healing?? were they performed in the "name of victor paul etc."???
I'm not dodging you. I just have had a 15 hour, 17 hour and 14 hour workdays and I have to work at least 8 hours today, Sunday. Then I have family responsibilities like mow the lawn rake the leaves and clean out the garage. Then I have business responsibilities like do my billing before I forget the details. I hope you understand that I want to get back to this thread and put in my two cents. If I can make some time today, I'll get back on and post my responses.
&&&
Sure Reaserch Geek ya have the time to answer that you are not dodging my question.
My question still remains the same..."Do you have right hand fellowship with Reverend John Shoyer? When ever you are not living your lie whoops life and ya got the time for a skin bracer and a cup o coffee~~~ jeesh ya must be the only one living a life 24 seven eh?
Do you have right hand fellowship Reverend John Shroyer? it's just a simple question ~~~ obviously you need the time to answer beyond a 24 7 your life and your thread... kewl
&&&
What is your answer dear sir?
Here is another question if ya have time from picking out plants for your front lawn~~~
DO YOU FORGIVE THE REV SHO?
what is that you know that the rev show wish's forgiveness?
i'm trying to forgive reverend nick whateverhisname is from your group for being so horribly hurtful to dot matrix. he told her something like she was "nothing" without pfal....
it was much worse what he said but i can't remember
"For example, in the late 70s I was VIOLENTLY raped, at knife point, by a man in my twig, I was not the only woman he raped that summer. He raped and impregnated another woman in our twig....he also raped the 16 year old mormon daughter of the man he worked for at a local hardware store.
That man, the rapist, changed my life forever that night, and I have the physical and emotional scars to prove it."
Radar, without offending you might I ask why this continued without having been arrested. This seems so bizarre that he could do this again two more times? How in the world did he get away with it. I know this is off track but you did use this as an example.
Two things to establish. First, I don't believe for a minute you are sorry that it happened to me, but that is okay....our lives are our lives. Secondly, the other girl in the twig and myself were barely 20 years old, and we both had already been in twi for six years, her sister was married to a corps grad, and had been a limb coordinator (in a different state.)
The bottom line reason is that we were both completely sold out to twi, it was our breath, our life.
The rapist had been in prison for 17 years and had been witnessed to as a result of "Prison Outreach" in California. We had a wonderful man/family in San Jose that were quite active and had made tremendous in roads into the prison system. This man (the rapist) was out on parole, his *sponsor* ( I don't know the official name) was an apprentice corps guy in my town---the twig leader.
After my personal incident, I was terrified to tell anyone, to this day, not even my mother knows. The other gal and I found out about each others rapes by accident. We were out for lunch at a mall and saw him drive by in his car.....we both blanched white, and started shaking...We looked at each other and almost simultaneously asked each other "You too?" Anyway, the limb/region coordinator counseled us both to not press charges because it would make "the way" look bad. We were both young, idealistic, sold out to twi and DUMB.
This particular man (the rapist) was working at a hardware store, he raped the 16 year old daughter of the mormon owner. That man, the mormon, pressed charges and the rapist was re-incarcerated.
“Geek, I gotta ask you, and anybody else shaking their finger in our collective faces about forgiveness...."
"Was it not Geek who was telling me whom *I* am to forgive?"
“S`far as I can see not a single person that Geek has mentioned, has met the requirement for being granted forgiveness."
I ask you again, exactly WHO has Geek mentioned by name, Rascal? Again, I find you STILL putting words in his mouth.
And song, it looks like you have a problem with Shroyer. If you do, that’s not our business. We refuse to get involved in your little spat. Take it to him, not me or Geek.
And yes, we have lives. Busy ones. That include not only home, business and school, but also family who are elderly and ill, who require much travel and care. And it is to them we are obligated, not to people who just want to bitch and argue, twist our words, and outright make things up. We owe you jack$hit.
To those who have been respectful, again, we thank you. To those who have not, well, have your thread.
I think a common thing I see in the responses of people who forgave others who didn't ask for it is that the forgiver did it to help themselves move on. I know it helps. Does the offender deserve forgiveness? Probably not.
I remember seeing things on TV of family members of murder victims and those raped forgiving the offenders. I never understood it then, but I do now. While still in twi, I never considered forgiveness an option until the offender asked for it. When I left twi, I had emotionally overwhelming feelings that I needed to get resolved or I would end up crazy or sick or both.
If I were to see a twi leader today, I don't know that I would even acknowledge their presence much less tell them they hurt me because it just doesn't matter to me anymore. I guess I could say I'm leaving it in God's hands. I know that He will make things right. And I'm OK with with that. Until then, I will do all I can to warn people about twi. They deserve to know what it's REALLY about.
i'm trying to forgive reverend nick whateverhisname is from your group for being so horribly hurtful to dot matrix. he told her something like she was "nothing" without pfal....
it was much worse what he said but i can't remember"
Excathedra, we have not been with Nick's "group" since we left TWI in 1997. I understand it was your "group" at one time too?
Dot Matrix emailed me and wanted to know if we knew Nick ------. We never personally knew Nick ------ other than in passing, and having been in the same corps as his wife, and to my knowledge he still plays organ for The Way International, and has nothing to do with us.
I told this to Dot in an email. No, we don't personally know him, and he absolutely knows nothing about us. We've never been friends.
What does he have to do with us, and where is your attitude coming from as if we are somehow even associated with what happended to Dot? We had no more to do with it than YOU did.
Catcup....so if you're that busy, what was your and Research Geek's point in coming on GS and starting this thread in the first place?!! Surely you knew there was going to be some controversy!
I am humbled you seem to have attributed the forsight of the almighty to us, but no, we had no idea this thread was going to become so cantankerous. Geek's point was listed in his first post.
But then again, those who are in the mood to argue, point the finger of blame, and stuff words in our mouths with their filthy fingers, have made up as many intentions as they dare.
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Danny
Radar Amen.
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skyrider
Radar......I couldn't agree more.
:)-->
Thanks for posting.
skyrider
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mj412
How much is about control?
I said in an earlier post someone makes me angry,yet I forgive him. now am I in control of my emotions or is the person who can push my buttons to the point I regret what I may have said or done in defense or fighting with him?
do I need me to forgive him at all ? He certainly isnt sorry .
Twi and some exerpience within it may be the same because of emotions that where played on people got involved in situations they regret. said and did stuff out of character. People tend to get angry when their life is out of their control and I think twi was all about control.
Twi taught me to renew my mind in other words change my mind in other word my way or the highway. It was about interpersonal relationships and how Shaz describes the choices I felt I have.
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Biblefan Dave
TWI is a corporate entity, TWI never did anything to anyone. People in TWI did. TWI never taught me anything, nor ever told me to do anything, people in TWI did. Let me rephrase, some people did, not everyone.
The problem in TWI was that a few men and women started corrupting the ideas and ideals of others. Physical details become more important than spiritual details. Obedience became more important than love. Dynamic teaching became more important than accurate teaching.
When TWI as an organization started to fall apart in '87, I viewed it the same way I did as when bad things happened to me on the WOW field. I viewed it as just another bump in the road. I just thought that I would deal with the circumstances as best as I could. I hever thought this bump would be in the road for the next 18 years.
Being the eternal optimist, I actually held hope for many years that somehow, some way, people in TWI would get their act together and bring things back to the Word.
VPW had his faults and he made his mistakes. Adultery and plagarism are wrong, period. Yet, I saw a lot of healing and deliverance when I started with TWI in the mid-70's. If VPW was such a bad person, I don't think that would have happened. I harbor no resentments or bitterness about VPW. I know the law of believing is wrong and that the tithe is no longer applicable (calling it abundant sharing didn't change what was actually being enforced or mandated). No one is perfect, not even VPW. VPW didn't have the corner on true, but that's OK.
I think LCM started with all the best intentions. But, what's the saying, sincerity is no guarantee for truth. LCM is still my brother in Christ. For all of his sinful adulterous affairs, his numerous erroneous teachings, his inept managerial skills, his inept pastoral skills, and his emotional and verbal abuse of God's people, he is still a brother in Christ. I am not anti-LCM, I am anti-error. I am not anti-TWI, I am anti-error. Yet, I know no man is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. That's no excuse for sin and error, but it's God's view of human nature. That's why God that that love covers a multitude of sins. I did not see the same healing and deliverance under LCM's charge that I did when VPW was there. That's not idolization, it's just what I observed. I harbor no bitterness or resentment toward LCM. I do feel sorrow for everyone that was hurt by LCM. Some people are still extremely bitter about what happened with TWI. LCM didn't betray me, he betrayed God. He failed to uphold the responsibilities of ministering to God's people. He failed miserably. Yet, he is still my brother in Christ. So, I can forgive him for any hurt that I felt in the past.
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CoolWaters
If a person is representing a corporate entity, then that person is acting on behalf of the entity. TWI as a corporate entity has representatives. The BOD, any paid staff, any clergy ordained by twi, any other leadership or 'disciple' or person sent out to do the work of twi. If any of these people do anything while representing twi, then twi as a corporate entity did it.
IMO, the problem in twi was the basic premise of a majority of the beliefs.
VPW believed...and taught...that the king has rights to every woman in the kingdom. He saw himself as the king in the kingdom of twi, so he had whatever woman he pleased.
Oh man. I did the same thing. When I finally realized that there was not one ounce of pure bible that could be associated with twi, I realized that there was no 'word' to come back to.
Who are you giving the glory to here? VPW was not God. God worked regardless of vpw's "mistakes", not because vpw was a decent man...which he wasn't...and his "mistakes" were not mistakes...they were pre-meditated.
He sure told everybody he did. And that's not OK.
The correct saying for your first statement is, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." The saying you quoted is not a saying anywhere except for in twi.
This is questionable.
TWI teaches an absent Christ and replaces the Christ with everything else. Until one comes to Jesus, there is no way for them to have the 'born again' experience.
TWI leads away from Jesus.
There's no way of knowing if anybody in twi ever was or is born again.
Huh? I don't get this.
This still does not mean that vpw was anything at all...unless vpw is now taking the place of the absent god.
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oldiesman
I had to quote this to make sure I wasn't imagining it... am I seeing things? there are others besides me who feel this way?
hey what happened to Research Geek?
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Oakspear
OM:
You've never been alone in this opinion, just the most vocal and impervious to reason
;)-->
So, since good things happened, VPW wasn't such a bad person?
-->
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sky4it
The absence of reason is unreasonable.
The absence of God is an "unreasonable chatic mess" called darkness
God is bigger than reasonable conclusions because not everything can be known.
Therefore it is impossible to reason away God. (Agnostics agree to this.)
Unreasonable conclusions can be either ignorant or willful.
The fact that the things of God can be known makes ignorance willing.
God is therefore just in judging man according to what he "knows" or "ought to know."
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alfakat
let me get this straight:
.
.
. -- "good things" happened at fellowships associated with, but not directly "run" by vpw and, by extension, twi, and therefore vpw in con clusion is "not such a bad person". Did I state that correctly as stated above by bibledave and seconded by om-man???
.
.
. WTF?????? -- how does that follow?? sorry, folks, that is abyssmal logic. WHERE IS GOD ALMIGHTY IN THAT PREMISE????????
Did vicster teleport to homes all over the country and do the miracles and healing?? were they performed in the "name of victor paul etc."???
Sorry, that is simplistic beyond belief.....
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shazdancer
The only difference I have been able to see between VPW's behavior and LCM's is that Wierwille hid his better.
AND, that Wierwille plagiarized and extrapolated more plausible doctrine. Martindale just made his stuff up.
Shaz
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excathedra
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oldiesman
To All Who Read This:
Happy Weekend!
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Danny
Did Om get a new name?
Same sheet.
I got mine,to bad you got hurt along the way. It was only people. VP was really was a great man besides for his faults. Your sick.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Research Geek
GS Regular
posted October 31, 2004 09:12
Hi songremainsthesame,
I'm not dodging you. I just have had a 15 hour, 17 hour and 14 hour workdays and I have to work at least 8 hours today, Sunday. Then I have family responsibilities like mow the lawn rake the leaves and clean out the garage. Then I have business responsibilities like do my billing before I forget the details. I hope you understand that I want to get back to this thread and put in my two cents. If I can make some time today, I'll get back on and post my responses.
&&&
Sure Reaserch Geek ya have the time to answer that you are not dodging my question.
My question still remains the same..."Do you have right hand fellowship with Reverend John Shoyer? When ever you are not living your lie whoops life and ya got the time for a skin bracer and a cup o coffee~~~ jeesh ya must be the only one living a life 24 seven eh?
Do you have right hand fellowship Reverend John Shroyer? it's just a simple question ~~~ obviously you need the time to answer beyond a 24 7 your life and your thread... kewl
&&&
What is your answer dear sir?
Here is another question if ya have time from picking out plants for your front lawn~~~
DO YOU FORGIVE THE REV SHO?
what is that you know that the rev show wish's forgiveness?
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excathedra
i believe they're all busy at a weekend in the word
http://www.cffm.org/doc/calendar.shtml
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excathedra
ps. are you ready for this, geek ?
i'm trying to forgive reverend nick whateverhisname is from your group for being so horribly hurtful to dot matrix. he told her something like she was "nothing" without pfal....
it was much worse what he said but i can't remember
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sky4it
excath and song:
What is CCF? They sure look doctrinally like a way spinoff?
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LornaDoone
"For example, in the late 70s I was VIOLENTLY raped, at knife point, by a man in my twig, I was not the only woman he raped that summer. He raped and impregnated another woman in our twig....he also raped the 16 year old mormon daughter of the man he worked for at a local hardware store.
That man, the rapist, changed my life forever that night, and I have the physical and emotional scars to prove it."
Radar, without offending you might I ask why this continued without having been arrested. This seems so bizarre that he could do this again two more times? How in the world did he get away with it. I know this is off track but you did use this as an example.
I am so sorry that happened to you.
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Radar OReilly
Lorna,
Two things to establish. First, I don't believe for a minute you are sorry that it happened to me, but that is okay....our lives are our lives. Secondly, the other girl in the twig and myself were barely 20 years old, and we both had already been in twi for six years, her sister was married to a corps grad, and had been a limb coordinator (in a different state.)
The bottom line reason is that we were both completely sold out to twi, it was our breath, our life.
The rapist had been in prison for 17 years and had been witnessed to as a result of "Prison Outreach" in California. We had a wonderful man/family in San Jose that were quite active and had made tremendous in roads into the prison system. This man (the rapist) was out on parole, his *sponsor* ( I don't know the official name) was an apprentice corps guy in my town---the twig leader.
After my personal incident, I was terrified to tell anyone, to this day, not even my mother knows. The other gal and I found out about each others rapes by accident. We were out for lunch at a mall and saw him drive by in his car.....we both blanched white, and started shaking...We looked at each other and almost simultaneously asked each other "You too?" Anyway, the limb/region coordinator counseled us both to not press charges because it would make "the way" look bad. We were both young, idealistic, sold out to twi and DUMB.
This particular man (the rapist) was working at a hardware store, he raped the 16 year old daughter of the mormon owner. That man, the mormon, pressed charges and the rapist was re-incarcerated.
Knowing the details make you feel any better?
Radar
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Catcup
“Geek, I gotta ask you, and anybody else shaking their finger in our collective faces about forgiveness...."
"Was it not Geek who was telling me whom *I* am to forgive?"
“S`far as I can see not a single person that Geek has mentioned, has met the requirement for being granted forgiveness."
I ask you again, exactly WHO has Geek mentioned by name, Rascal? Again, I find you STILL putting words in his mouth.
And song, it looks like you have a problem with Shroyer. If you do, that’s not our business. We refuse to get involved in your little spat. Take it to him, not me or Geek.
And yes, we have lives. Busy ones. That include not only home, business and school, but also family who are elderly and ill, who require much travel and care. And it is to them we are obligated, not to people who just want to bitch and argue, twist our words, and outright make things up. We owe you jack$hit.
To those who have been respectful, again, we thank you. To those who have not, well, have your thread.
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Nottawayfer
I think a common thing I see in the responses of people who forgave others who didn't ask for it is that the forgiver did it to help themselves move on. I know it helps. Does the offender deserve forgiveness? Probably not.
I remember seeing things on TV of family members of murder victims and those raped forgiving the offenders. I never understood it then, but I do now. While still in twi, I never considered forgiveness an option until the offender asked for it. When I left twi, I had emotionally overwhelming feelings that I needed to get resolved or I would end up crazy or sick or both.
If I were to see a twi leader today, I don't know that I would even acknowledge their presence much less tell them they hurt me because it just doesn't matter to me anymore. I guess I could say I'm leaving it in God's hands. I know that He will make things right. And I'm OK with with that. Until then, I will do all I can to warn people about twi. They deserve to know what it's REALLY about.
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Catcup
"excathedra
total eclipse of the heart
posted November 05, 2004 22:22
ps. are you ready for this, geek ?
i'm trying to forgive reverend nick whateverhisname is from your group for being so horribly hurtful to dot matrix. he told her something like she was "nothing" without pfal....
it was much worse what he said but i can't remember"
Excathedra, we have not been with Nick's "group" since we left TWI in 1997. I understand it was your "group" at one time too?
Dot Matrix emailed me and wanted to know if we knew Nick ------. We never personally knew Nick ------ other than in passing, and having been in the same corps as his wife, and to my knowledge he still plays organ for The Way International, and has nothing to do with us.
I told this to Dot in an email. No, we don't personally know him, and he absolutely knows nothing about us. We've never been friends.
What does he have to do with us, and where is your attitude coming from as if we are somehow even associated with what happended to Dot? We had no more to do with it than YOU did.
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Cowgirl
Catcup....so if you're that busy, what was your and Research Geek's point in coming on GS and starting this thread in the first place?!! Surely you knew there was going to be some controversy!
Cowgirl
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Catcup
I am humbled you seem to have attributed the forsight of the almighty to us, but no, we had no idea this thread was going to become so cantankerous. Geek's point was listed in his first post.
But then again, those who are in the mood to argue, point the finger of blame, and stuff words in our mouths with their filthy fingers, have made up as many intentions as they dare.
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