quote:Goey, off the top of my head, there's a few scriptures that back up the idea of forgiveness without repentence being required first.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
God didn't require our repentence first, before willing to ask Christ to die.
Irrelevant. The context is of Romans 5:8 is not forgiveness, much less human to human forgiveness AFTER salvation. Otherwise you can just tear 1 John out of your Bible.
quote:Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
By grace we are saved, God's gift, even when we were dead in sins. Not by good works.
Irrelevant. Again the context is not human to human forgiveness after salvation.
quote:Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
In the very same chapter you say repentence is a requirement, Jesus forgave those who were killing him, without them repenting first
. Read what is actually written. Jesus did not say "I forgive you". Instead he prayed for the father to forgive them. He put the ball in God's court.
quote:Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Stephen was filled with the spirit. He asked God not to charge those who were killing him with murder. He forgave them without them repenting first.
Nowhere is forgiveness mentioned here. You are presuming it. Like Jesus did in the previous example, Stephen asked God to "lay not this sin to their charge." Whether or not God honored Stephen's request is up to God - not Stephen.
quote:Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye.
Here, the standard for forgiveness is not wait till a person repents first before you can be forbearing and forgive, but you forbear and forgive because even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
It begins with Christ forgiving you (even when you were dead in sins), leaving you free to forgive others.
Again you do not read what is writtem, but instead make assumptions and ignore the rest of the scriptures. First consider that Paul is talking about a "quarrel" not rape, sexual abuse in the name of God, intentional foisting of the Word, etc. Next the word here for forgive is [charizomai] in the Greek as opposed to "aphiemi". You may do well to learn the difference between the two.
Hint: 1 John uses apheimi instead of charizomai. So does Luke 17:3.
quote: I'm sure there are additional examples.
And I am equally sure that my replies to you above will go in one ear and out the other.
No matter how anybody cuts it, no matter how anyone defines forgiveness, no matter how many verses can be tossed around, only one thing really sets precedent:
Although forgiveness of sins is available to all, it is only given to those who ask and repent.
The audacity to compare the forgiveness bought by the blood of Jesus to the forgiveness between sinful and imperfect humans is just plain a huge slap in the face of Jesus.
To think that imperfect Man can even try to offer forgiveness, much more offer it as purely and powerfully as Jesus did, is to think that we can be as gods.
Well Sky, first I have to say I am not convinced that the crap we have to face in this life comes from God. I would then go on to say, recognizing we cannot change the past, letting go, and moving forward with one's life is hardly swimming downstream. In fact, I would suggest it is the very opposite.
I agree oh Abster. All Im saying is that he lets us learn how to "deal with it" and in the process makes us a little more like him. dubble thy peace and have some more. shallom!
IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Cowgirl
Cowgirl, I believe that promise from God wholeheartedly.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I think what your position is is that since God requires confession before forgiveness, then you are requiring the same from those who trespass against you. Confession first, otherwise you will not forgive them.
I just don't see it that way. I'm not God I'm a human being, prone to sinning and making mistakes myself, just like any other human.
We are in a spiritual battle, we sin, others sin and blow it. Sometimes folks who sin against us don't see it. Sometimes they don't realize what they did, what they are doing, or even if they're wrong at all. They don't realize what hurt they've caused. They could be blind, deceived, cold, calloused, whatever. And what I'm suggesting is, you can forgive them whether they see it or not. And Research Geeks point is, that helps YOU, whether they see it or not.
It's so strange that some folks use bible verses as a pretext for not forgiving others, when its so powerfully evident that God wants us to forgive others.
quote:Oldies, you don't need to forgive Wierwille, he didn't rape you. Unless perhaps you wanted to forgive him for misrepresentation. Since he's dead, it's a little late.
Shaz, these ignorant condescending statements sometimes are just too much, assuming that I never got hurt myself, but I'm going to share with the folks here something that hurt me deeply years ago. I think I may have told the folks this story but I was dismissed from the Sixth Corps on March 7, 1976. March 7 was a Sunday and I asked Craig, who dismissed me that morning, if I could stay for the evening service. Admittedly I was dismissed for something that was my own fault...but, I did apologize for it, and stated it wouldn't happen again. I stayed for the nite service, then after the service he called everyone into the Ermal Owens Sunshine Room and forthwith dismissed the entire Sixth Corps. He then said anyone who wanted to recommit themselves to the Corps Program may do so by "signing the little 3 x 5 card we are handing out." At the end of the meeting, I ran up to Craig, and asked him if I may stay after all, under these circumstances? He thought it over for a few seconds, then said no, "my previous decision stands with you." Didn't matter what just occurred, didn't matter if I was very sorry and apologized, I got booted anyway.
A few days later, I'm home with my mom and Dr. Wierwille calls. He convinces my mother to use the remaining money she and Dad previously paid for my corps training that year, to allocate the rest of it to a family member, who was entering the 7th Corps. She approved, so now my corps sponsorship vanished.
I asked to speak to VPW and begged and pleaded with him over the phone to take me back. I apologized and said it would never happen again. His response: "no, we've gone as far as we're going to go with you."
To hell with oldiesman, he's tossed in the gutter.
I was devastated, heartbroken. My mother wanted me to see a shrink. My whole life and dream shattered, at 20 years old. I stayed stationery and almost motionless in my room for 3 months. Thinking about it now greatly saddens me. Never received an apology from Craig or VP for their lack of caring, hypocrisy, cold heartedness, and now that I think about it, especially now since we know of Craig's and VP's sinning themselves.
But you know what, I forgave them. I will say that it took me a good 2 years to get healed from it. Asking God to help me, focusing on God's gifts in my life and how much HE's forgiven me of my sins helped me forgive others. It just works, that's all I can say.
Yeah I wasn't physically raped -- but mentally, emotionally? Soul Death. Yep. But the bottom line is, forgiveness still works like a healing balm under extraordinarily trying circumstances, and one may forgive without a tad of repentence or confession from the offending party. I can't imagine holding that pain inside of me for 25 years. I am depressed now that I've dredged this up in my mind, I have to renew it. :)-->
Oldiesman..Im so sorry for bringing this up..I hate the shadows of thought that still linger time to time about this stuff..It just pops on its own..its a constant battle. That gets tiring..I know what you mean by secluding your yourself cause you dont want people to see your grief. that is how I am. I shelter and push it away and try to move on. my own mind stumbles on........time to smell the roses!!
I personaly havent read the word for about a year..This coming month I plan on setting a schedule (so to speak) and start rereading the epistles. Maybe this will help.
...if Jesus were not just The Messiah, Mediator, Redeemer, Son of God etc., concerned with carrying out His ministry wounding, healing, forgiving and loving...BUT ALSO an enterprising entrepeneur hawking "WWID" bracelets (i.e. "what would I do?"), think of the thoughts He would have caused others to ponder, thusly changing the lives of many...
...and making a fad fashion killing for the "in" crowd.
It is the victory in Jesus that I forgave as I was forgiven.
I dealt with liars and hypocrits in twi and I just didnt want to be like them I had a change of heart and just wanted to move on with God as my God. to do this I did apply his advice in praying for my enemys and forgiving those who trespass against me.
I find it ironic it was all about the bible that got me into the mess and all about the bible that allowed me to carry on with the pain it gave my life..
to much isnt it?
well I just think hate and bitterness isnt going to work any better at least for my own peace.
I dunno, rather than view it as admirable to suffer such ignominious treatment ...and to then *forgive* the heartless bas turds .... to the point of actively protecting and defending....monsters that so casually destroyed your dreams...the dreams of one who only wanted to serve God.....I find it disturbing.
I find your story heart breaking oldies, it makes me angry all over again that they could so casually destroy a child of God.....and then try to make sure that your bucks stayed in their coffers....sheeshe
your right but what is the answer then to stay angry and never forgive and live in the misery of being angry forever?
I have a family member who makes me very angry yet I must forgive because I frankly can not deal or give place to wasting my time trying to or change him. forgivness allows me to find some peace for myself.
ya know love does stupid things to decisions , and twi did play with our emotions and our egos , I fell for it hook line and sinker and got hurt I guess I had to forgive to carry on without the anger .
many played the fool and it naturaly makes one angry but I think life is to short to keep it for very long . We fight not flesh and blood and although it was real live people that hurt us, we can understand why and how this stuff happens clearly from the bible testimony that in the very least we are not alone in the witness. Jesus paid a price far greater and got hurt alot more than any of us and that is reason alone to seek peace with others for me.
Thank you for sharing. It gives more depth to who you are...and allows me to see you as a human being and not just a twi-bot.
I am so very sorry that you were dismissed so easily...so coldly...so arrogantly...and just because they could.
*****************
From what I'm reading on this thread, "forgiveness" sounds a whole lot like what I do when I just let go and let it be.
Maybe that's all there is to forgiveness. I dunno.
When I think of forgiveness, I also think of reconciliation and restoral of the relationship.
There are many situations in my life where I have just had to let go and let be. The most poignant situation is the one between my dad and I. I've forgiven him. We have a relationship now. I have never brought up the subject of what he did to me when I was child. He has never apologized.
It was in my mind from the time I left home to the time I moved back to Kansas that I would kill him.
Then he came visiting at my home one day. I was in the basement doing laundry. It was a very hot summer day so all the windows and doors were open. My dad just walked into my home and started calling my name.
I grabbed my Ginsu butcher knife and went upstairs prepared to knife the s.o.b.
When I got to the door between my kitchen and my living room, one look at the man stayed my hand.
He had shrunk to the size of a very small man.
Suddenly I realized that I would never be a victim of his ever again.
Then I heard that still small voice saying, "Let it go. He's changed. You've changed. Let it go."
I no longer begrudge him anything. In fact, just the other day we were talking on the telephone for over an hour about all the cool things we used to do together...like just the two of us going out for breakfast at 5:00am. At the end of the conversation I thanked him for all he had ever done for me.
Never once has he admitted what happened. Never once has he apologized.
But it's over...for me and for him. And it was what I believe to have been direct information from holy spirit that helped me to see that it was all over.
I still share what I grew up with...because I think it's important for people who have gone through it...or for those going through it now.
I don't believe I'm sharing out of bitterness. Anger still flares up when I think about it...and I think that being angry is fine.
But does that mean I harbor bitterness? No. Does that mean I am unforgiving? No. It just means that I am still pained by how broken he left me.
But what am I going to do? Kill him? No...not anymore...that would not solve a thing.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that just because there's this message board called GreaseSpot Cafe where twi is exposed...
Just because there are those (like me) who still have anger over what twi did to people...
Just because there are those (like me) who refuse to accept baby or bathwater...
That is no indicator that there is no forgiveness.
All it means is that there are those (like me) who want to see an end to the suffering at the hands of twi.
My anger over the mistreatment of people by reprehensible creeps who claimed to serve God does not make me miserable.... I do not understand why this is assumed.
It is possible to dislike something intensly, and still not be miserable.....
It is possible to dislike something intensly, and still not be miserable.....
yea rascal, its called managed anger, co-dependent no more. I think its also called maturity.
You've become a "grown up" just like Twi always said you would be. Unfortunately for them, it is without them.
I think TWI should have an "exit class" for those in doubt. "How not to hate what you did to us no more"
I once used an oxymoron to describe my assembly experience. I went to this "Christian name omitted" to be come "dehabilitated."
I think we have found what our fathers warned us of the "Jesus movement" to be true. That is namely, that corrupt people do corrupt things and corruption wasnt limited to them only.
Thank you for sharing that. Yes, you were mistreated. They should have listened to you. They should have forgiven YOU, since it sounds like you were truly sorry and determined not to repeat your mistake, whatever that was. It says more about their hardheartedness, that they would give up on a brother in Christ like that.
Heck, when they gave up on me, I had done nothing wrong -- it was my husband that had erred, and they just abandoned me with him, refused all help. Hardheartedness, not to mention laziness.
I am sorry for what they did to you.
So you forgave them, cool. But you seem intent on supporting them, and that I don't understand.
They are not to be congratulated for teaching the Bible. Heck, it's obvious that there are preachers all over the country taking people's money, claiming to be "men of God" and spouting accurate Scripture. No great talent to that. And that in and of itself should not place anyone in a position of honor.
Perhaps God was able to work with you even in a bad situation. Then be thankful to God. That's how I feel about my time in TWI -- good came, even out of an evil organization. And they were evil. I think about the number of stories of mistreatment I have heard on Greasespot alone. Exy, you, me, valerie, Dot, Coolwaters and templelady, Shellon, Abigail -- these are the ones whose stories I can recall at the moment, I know there have been many others. (My apologies to those of you I missed.) If Wierwille pulled off only four such incidents per year between 1975-1985, then I would say that he was a bad man not worthy of respect. Yet it is safe to say there were a lot more than 40 incidents of cruelty.
I will second CW's post...
quote:Just because there are those (like me) who still have anger over what twi did to people...
Just because there are those (like me) who refuse to accept baby or bathwater...
That is no indicator that there is no forgiveness.
All it means is that there are those (like me) who want to see an end to the suffering at the hands of twi.
quote:I have a family member who makes me very angry yet I must forgive because I frankly can not deal or give place to wasting my time trying to or change him. forgivness allows me to find some peace for myself.
oldies, that was a bad/sad thing...not really the right words ...but are there any for crappy things.
In these circumstances, I think the whole moving on thing is IN SPITE OF, and not BECAUSE OF...not yelling just specifying.
I have explored forgivenesss, but alweays come back to the idea that its not really divided into the forgiveable and unforgivable, but things I can relate to--shadows of Satori's duality, things I can look over, and things that are indicative of such low chartacter I no longer wish to relate to a person no matter what.
Lianne Pierce/washingtonweather
FYI for those who don't know, Daddyhoundog is my wonderful husband
1.) You decide not to think about the offender anymore, and refuse to have anything to do with him -- forgiveness?
2.) You decide you will have a surface relationship only with your offender, so he won't hurt you again. You never bring up the offense -- forgiveness?
3.) You don't tell the offender that he hurt you, but decide to go right back to the kind of relationship you had before -- after all, he's only human and we all sin -- forgiveness?
4.) You tell the offender that he hurt you. He does not apologize. You feel like you cleared the air, at any rate, so you "renew your mind" and pretend it never happened -- forgiveness?
5.) The offender apologizes to you. You're glad he recognized his offense, but you still don't completely trust him -- forgiveness?
6.) The offender apologizes, but you insist that he repay you for the offense -- forgiveness?
7.) The offender apologizes and makes amends. He changes his ways. Slowly, you come to accept that he has turned over a new leaf. You resume the relationship you had before -- forgiveness?
I don't know if these are all "forgiveness" in the Biblical sense, but I think there are times when any of these different attitudes might be the appropriate response. I think it depends on the severity of the offense, the intent of the offender (during and and after the offense), and the ability of the victim to carry on in the wake of the offense.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
70
66
71
45
Popular Days
Oct 28
93
Oct 29
84
Oct 30
47
Nov 9
46
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 70 posts
excathedra 66 posts
TheSongRemainsTheSame 71 posts
Catcup 45 posts
Popular Days
Oct 28 2004
93 posts
Oct 29 2004
84 posts
Oct 30 2004
47 posts
Nov 9 2004
46 posts
Goey
Posted by Oldies:
Irrelevant. The context is of Romans 5:8 is not forgiveness, much less human to human forgiveness AFTER salvation. Otherwise you can just tear 1 John out of your Bible. Irrelevant. Again the context is not human to human forgiveness after salvation. . Read what is actually written. Jesus did not say "I forgive you". Instead he prayed for the father to forgive them. He put the ball in God's court.Nowhere is forgiveness mentioned here. You are presuming it. Like Jesus did in the previous example, Stephen asked God to "lay not this sin to their charge." Whether or not God honored Stephen's request is up to God - not Stephen.
Again you do not read what is writtem, but instead make assumptions and ignore the rest of the scriptures. First consider that Paul is talking about a "quarrel" not rape, sexual abuse in the name of God, intentional foisting of the Word, etc. Next the word here for forgive is [charizomai] in the Greek as opposed to "aphiemi". You may do well to learn the difference between the two.Hint: 1 John uses apheimi instead of charizomai. So does Luke 17:3.
And I am equally sure that my replies to you above will go in one ear and out the other.Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
No matter how anybody cuts it, no matter how anyone defines forgiveness, no matter how many verses can be tossed around, only one thing really sets precedent:
Although forgiveness of sins is available to all, it is only given to those who ask and repent.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
That's okay, Goey. I heard you, and thank you for pointing out that verses like Rom. 5:8 are irrelevant. They didn't make sense to me, either.
Regards,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Exactly, Shaz.
The audacity to compare the forgiveness bought by the blood of Jesus to the forgiveness between sinful and imperfect humans is just plain a huge slap in the face of Jesus.
To think that imperfect Man can even try to offer forgiveness, much more offer it as purely and powerfully as Jesus did, is to think that we can be as gods.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sky4it
abby:
thy stuff:
Well Sky, first I have to say I am not convinced that the crap we have to face in this life comes from God. I would then go on to say, recognizing we cannot change the past, letting go, and moving forward with one's life is hardly swimming downstream. In fact, I would suggest it is the very opposite.
I agree oh Abster. All Im saying is that he lets us learn how to "deal with it" and in the process makes us a little more like him. dubble thy peace and have some more. shallom!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
yes like an eagle that is a very true and honest statement and one I think many can relate to.
the anger generated by realizing you have been lied to or tricked is deep and even worse if it involves someone you love and respect.
I put them in a position of POWER in life I thought they had POwers heck they claimed to have HIGHER POWERS !!!
how did this happen ? I had to loook at my own self and the attraction twi played out for me and my family.
yes! it takes forgivness of self first to realize we all got into something that was not good.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I think what your position is is that since God requires confession before forgiveness, then you are requiring the same from those who trespass against you. Confession first, otherwise you will not forgive them.
I just don't see it that way. I'm not God I'm a human being, prone to sinning and making mistakes myself, just like any other human.
We are in a spiritual battle, we sin, others sin and blow it. Sometimes folks who sin against us don't see it. Sometimes they don't realize what they did, what they are doing, or even if they're wrong at all. They don't realize what hurt they've caused. They could be blind, deceived, cold, calloused, whatever. And what I'm suggesting is, you can forgive them whether they see it or not. And Research Geeks point is, that helps YOU, whether they see it or not.
It's so strange that some folks use bible verses as a pretext for not forgiving others, when its so powerfully evident that God wants us to forgive others.
Shaz, these ignorant condescending statements sometimes are just too much, assuming that I never got hurt myself, but I'm going to share with the folks here something that hurt me deeply years ago. I think I may have told the folks this story but I was dismissed from the Sixth Corps on March 7, 1976. March 7 was a Sunday and I asked Craig, who dismissed me that morning, if I could stay for the evening service. Admittedly I was dismissed for something that was my own fault...but, I did apologize for it, and stated it wouldn't happen again. I stayed for the nite service, then after the service he called everyone into the Ermal Owens Sunshine Room and forthwith dismissed the entire Sixth Corps. He then said anyone who wanted to recommit themselves to the Corps Program may do so by "signing the little 3 x 5 card we are handing out." At the end of the meeting, I ran up to Craig, and asked him if I may stay after all, under these circumstances? He thought it over for a few seconds, then said no, "my previous decision stands with you." Didn't matter what just occurred, didn't matter if I was very sorry and apologized, I got booted anyway.A few days later, I'm home with my mom and Dr. Wierwille calls. He convinces my mother to use the remaining money she and Dad previously paid for my corps training that year, to allocate the rest of it to a family member, who was entering the 7th Corps. She approved, so now my corps sponsorship vanished.
I asked to speak to VPW and begged and pleaded with him over the phone to take me back. I apologized and said it would never happen again. His response: "no, we've gone as far as we're going to go with you."
To hell with oldiesman, he's tossed in the gutter.
I was devastated, heartbroken. My mother wanted me to see a shrink. My whole life and dream shattered, at 20 years old. I stayed stationery and almost motionless in my room for 3 months. Thinking about it now greatly saddens me. Never received an apology from Craig or VP for their lack of caring, hypocrisy, cold heartedness, and now that I think about it, especially now since we know of Craig's and VP's sinning themselves.
But you know what, I forgave them. I will say that it took me a good 2 years to get healed from it. Asking God to help me, focusing on God's gifts in my life and how much HE's forgiven me of my sins helped me forgive others. It just works, that's all I can say.
Yeah I wasn't physically raped -- but mentally, emotionally? Soul Death. Yep. But the bottom line is, forgiveness still works like a healing balm under extraordinarily trying circumstances, and one may forgive without a tad of repentence or confession from the offending party. I can't imagine holding that pain inside of me for 25 years. I am depressed now that I've dredged this up in my mind, I have to renew it.
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
likeaneagle
Oldiesman..Im so sorry for bringing this up..I hate the shadows of thought that still linger time to time about this stuff..It just pops on its own..its a constant battle. That gets tiring..I know what you mean by secluding your yourself cause you dont want people to see your grief. that is how I am. I shelter and push it away and try to move on. my own mind stumbles on........time to smell the roses!!
I personaly havent read the word for about a year..This coming month I plan on setting a schedule (so to speak) and start rereading the epistles. Maybe this will help.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Eagle, thanks for the tip, I gotta read the Epistles more, especially Ephesians, gotta put on that whole armour of God.
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
MATILDA
postulating...
...if Jesus were not just The Messiah, Mediator, Redeemer, Son of God etc., concerned with carrying out His ministry wounding, healing, forgiving and loving...BUT ALSO an enterprising entrepeneur hawking "WWID" bracelets (i.e. "what would I do?"), think of the thoughts He would have caused others to ponder, thusly changing the lives of many...
...and making a fad fashion killing for the "in" crowd.
uh-oh...too much coffee for The ~...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
satori001
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
Satori !
I also forgave and mine was a awful tale to tell.
It is the victory in Jesus that I forgave as I was forgiven.
I dealt with liars and hypocrits in twi and I just didnt want to be like them I had a change of heart and just wanted to move on with God as my God. to do this I did apply his advice in praying for my enemys and forgiving those who trespass against me.
I find it ironic it was all about the bible that got me into the mess and all about the bible that allowed me to carry on with the pain it gave my life..
to much isnt it?
well I just think hate and bitterness isnt going to work any better at least for my own peace.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I dunno, rather than view it as admirable to suffer such ignominious treatment ...and to then *forgive* the heartless bas turds .... to the point of actively protecting and defending....monsters that so casually destroyed your dreams...the dreams of one who only wanted to serve God.....I find it disturbing.
I find your story heart breaking oldies, it makes me angry all over again that they could so casually destroy a child of God.....and then try to make sure that your bucks stayed in their coffers....sheeshe
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
your right but what is the answer then to stay angry and never forgive and live in the misery of being angry forever?
I have a family member who makes me very angry yet I must forgive because I frankly can not deal or give place to wasting my time trying to or change him. forgivness allows me to find some peace for myself.
ya know love does stupid things to decisions , and twi did play with our emotions and our egos , I fell for it hook line and sinker and got hurt I guess I had to forgive to carry on without the anger .
many played the fool and it naturaly makes one angry but I think life is to short to keep it for very long . We fight not flesh and blood and although it was real live people that hurt us, we can understand why and how this stuff happens clearly from the bible testimony that in the very least we are not alone in the witness. Jesus paid a price far greater and got hurt alot more than any of us and that is reason alone to seek peace with others for me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
{{{{{OM}}}}}
Thank you for sharing. It gives more depth to who you are...and allows me to see you as a human being and not just a twi-bot.
I am so very sorry that you were dismissed so easily...so coldly...so arrogantly...and just because they could.
*****************
From what I'm reading on this thread, "forgiveness" sounds a whole lot like what I do when I just let go and let it be.
Maybe that's all there is to forgiveness. I dunno.
When I think of forgiveness, I also think of reconciliation and restoral of the relationship.
There are many situations in my life where I have just had to let go and let be. The most poignant situation is the one between my dad and I. I've forgiven him. We have a relationship now. I have never brought up the subject of what he did to me when I was child. He has never apologized.
It was in my mind from the time I left home to the time I moved back to Kansas that I would kill him.
Then he came visiting at my home one day. I was in the basement doing laundry. It was a very hot summer day so all the windows and doors were open. My dad just walked into my home and started calling my name.
I grabbed my Ginsu butcher knife and went upstairs prepared to knife the s.o.b.
When I got to the door between my kitchen and my living room, one look at the man stayed my hand.
He had shrunk to the size of a very small man.
Suddenly I realized that I would never be a victim of his ever again.
Then I heard that still small voice saying, "Let it go. He's changed. You've changed. Let it go."
I no longer begrudge him anything. In fact, just the other day we were talking on the telephone for over an hour about all the cool things we used to do together...like just the two of us going out for breakfast at 5:00am. At the end of the conversation I thanked him for all he had ever done for me.
Never once has he admitted what happened. Never once has he apologized.
But it's over...for me and for him. And it was what I believe to have been direct information from holy spirit that helped me to see that it was all over.
I still share what I grew up with...because I think it's important for people who have gone through it...or for those going through it now.
I don't believe I'm sharing out of bitterness. Anger still flares up when I think about it...and I think that being angry is fine.
But does that mean I harbor bitterness? No. Does that mean I am unforgiving? No. It just means that I am still pained by how broken he left me.
But what am I going to do? Kill him? No...not anymore...that would not solve a thing.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that just because there's this message board called GreaseSpot Cafe where twi is exposed...
Just because there are those (like me) who still have anger over what twi did to people...
Just because there are those (like me) who refuse to accept baby or bathwater...
That is no indicator that there is no forgiveness.
All it means is that there are those (like me) who want to see an end to the suffering at the hands of twi.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
My anger over the mistreatment of people by reprehensible creeps who claimed to serve God does not make me miserable.... I do not understand why this is assumed.
It is possible to dislike something intensly, and still not be miserable.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sky4it
rascal:
your stuff:
It is possible to dislike something intensly, and still not be miserable.....
yea rascal, its called managed anger, co-dependent no more. I think its also called maturity.
You've become a "grown up" just like Twi always said you would be. Unfortunately for them, it is without them.
I think TWI should have an "exit class" for those in doubt. "How not to hate what you did to us no more"
I once used an oxymoron to describe my assembly experience. I went to this "Christian name omitted" to be come "dehabilitated."
I think we have found what our fathers warned us of the "Jesus movement" to be true. That is namely, that corrupt people do corrupt things and corruption wasnt limited to them only.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Oldies,
Thank you for sharing that. Yes, you were mistreated. They should have listened to you. They should have forgiven YOU, since it sounds like you were truly sorry and determined not to repeat your mistake, whatever that was. It says more about their hardheartedness, that they would give up on a brother in Christ like that.
Heck, when they gave up on me, I had done nothing wrong -- it was my husband that had erred, and they just abandoned me with him, refused all help. Hardheartedness, not to mention laziness.
I am sorry for what they did to you.
So you forgave them, cool. But you seem intent on supporting them, and that I don't understand.
They are not to be congratulated for teaching the Bible. Heck, it's obvious that there are preachers all over the country taking people's money, claiming to be "men of God" and spouting accurate Scripture. No great talent to that. And that in and of itself should not place anyone in a position of honor.
Perhaps God was able to work with you even in a bad situation. Then be thankful to God. That's how I feel about my time in TWI -- good came, even out of an evil organization. And they were evil. I think about the number of stories of mistreatment I have heard on Greasespot alone. Exy, you, me, valerie, Dot, Coolwaters and templelady, Shellon, Abigail -- these are the ones whose stories I can recall at the moment, I know there have been many others. (My apologies to those of you I missed.) If Wierwille pulled off only four such incidents per year between 1975-1985, then I would say that he was a bad man not worthy of respect. Yet it is safe to say there were a lot more than 40 incidents of cruelty.
I will second CW's post...
ShazLink to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
oldies i am very sorry for what happened to you. it sounds all too familiar.
did you ever see the shrink like your mom suggested ? i mean that as a heartfelt question
if it means anything, i understand how you felt
love,ex
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
Quote my MJ:
That is some patience.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DaddyHoundog
oldies, that was a bad/sad thing...not really the right words ...but are there any for crappy things.
In these circumstances, I think the whole moving on thing is IN SPITE OF, and not BECAUSE OF...not yelling just specifying.
I have explored forgivenesss, but alweays come back to the idea that its not really divided into the forgiveable and unforgivable, but things I can relate to--shadows of Satori's duality, things I can look over, and things that are indicative of such low chartacter I no longer wish to relate to a person no matter what.
Lianne Pierce/washingtonweather
FYI for those who don't know, Daddyhoundog is my wonderful husband
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
sometimes i hate people who forgive
just kidding
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
You're forgiven.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
FORGIVENESS?
1.) You decide not to think about the offender anymore, and refuse to have anything to do with him -- forgiveness?
2.) You decide you will have a surface relationship only with your offender, so he won't hurt you again. You never bring up the offense -- forgiveness?
3.) You don't tell the offender that he hurt you, but decide to go right back to the kind of relationship you had before -- after all, he's only human and we all sin -- forgiveness?
4.) You tell the offender that he hurt you. He does not apologize. You feel like you cleared the air, at any rate, so you "renew your mind" and pretend it never happened -- forgiveness?
5.) The offender apologizes to you. You're glad he recognized his offense, but you still don't completely trust him -- forgiveness?
6.) The offender apologizes, but you insist that he repay you for the offense -- forgiveness?
7.) The offender apologizes and makes amends. He changes his ways. Slowly, you come to accept that he has turned over a new leaf. You resume the relationship you had before -- forgiveness?
I don't know if these are all "forgiveness" in the Biblical sense, but I think there are times when any of these different attitudes might be the appropriate response. I think it depends on the severity of the offense, the intent of the offender (during and and after the offense), and the ability of the victim to carry on in the wake of the offense.
Regards,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.