Frankly, I think Jesus would vomit at what happened to his believers. I think it would anger him to see it was calculated.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!
Or I see something like this---
Acts.5.6 The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
Acts.5.9 But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”
Acts.5.10 Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
My Jesus knew the old Testament where it says this:
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes,
and prudent in their own sight!"
Isaiah 5:20-21
Sometimes, the picture of the sweet anorexic Jesus is a portrait of a sissy. I think he was bold, gutsy, told it like it was and that WAS love. I think he was tender and came to the rescue when real people cried out for help or forgiveness. My Jesus backed the stone throwers off of Mary. I did not see him telling her the only way she would feel better was to forgive them. He helped her get her crap together and she dug him. (Now, most pick other things out in that verse but if you look there is more...) I picture my Jesus poking a finger into the chest of anyone who would deliberately hurt one of his kids and tell them to back off. And Paul, well he did some bad stuff but he also REPENTED and was forgiven.
People who wrong others repent then they are forgiven. People who are drowning and ask for God to help them are redeemed. Now this is loose and does not have the finesse' of Research Geek but that is how I see the Jesus I call Lord.
I see him as a sweet, fair, loving marine. Who could put teeth into something when needed. Not as a flower throwing hippie..
I see my Jesus talking about redemption. And that would be between THEM and Jesus. And if they really went before God and asked for forgiveness then they would have "themselves" reflected to them. And they would WANT to seek forgiveness from those they have hurt.
There was a minister in TWI who was a real jerk to me and other women in PA. He was an azzhole. He asked God for forgiveness then he wrote a letter to the women in PA and asked for forgiveness. I gotta hand it to him. In a split second, I forgave him and I think he is an alright guy, a man's man to own up to things and to ask for forgiveness. To date, he is the only one who asked for my forgiveness. And I was delighted to forgive him.
I have searched for those I hurt, and when I found them I asked them to please forgive me. You know why? I felt badly about what I had done. For those I cannot find, I ask God to bless them and somehow tell them how sory I am.
Ya know even AA (and I rarely drink but know people who have gone) they have a step where the perpetrator has to go apologize to those they have wronged. Now that is a secular group with a spiritual underpinning and they know TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS is key
They do not go to a meeting and hear, "I am sure they have forgiven you as it would have hurt them more to stay mad."
No, they hear "to own up to the destruction they have caused and ask for forgiveness". Sometimes they get forgiven. Sometimes they do not but it is their job TO ASK, To SEEK, TO humble themselves before their "judge" and allow what they have done to be pointed out to them.
But in TWI -- what do they do -- they don't ask for forgiveness they just start a splinter with little or no reflection on what they did to hurt God's people or wht they did to wander off the path to begin with...
Redeemed:
re·deem (rĭ-dēm') Pronunciation Key
tr.v. re·deemed, re·deem·ing, re·deems
To recover ownership of by paying a specified sum.
To pay off (a promissory note, for example).
To turn in (coupons, for example) and receive something in exchange.
To fulfill (a pledge, for example).
To convert into cash: redeem stocks.
To set free; rescue or ransom.
To save from a state of sinfulness and its consequences. See Synonyms at save1.
To make up for: The low price of the clothes dryer redeems its lack of special features.
To restore the honor, worth, or reputation of: You botched the last job but can redeem yourself on this one.
Something I found re: TheCatholic church and Pedophilia
Points can be extrapulated to this thread
The Word of God deals with these type of situations almost exclusively in a couple passages. Since I believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God, I believe it is relevant for our lives today. But it doesn't appear that the Catholic church decided to consult it in resolution of these "modern-day" problems.
In the book of I Corinthians, Paul learns about a serious sexual sin that arose in the Corinthian church, then gave instructions to them on how to deal with it. In a later letter, he admonished them to let the brother back in the church after sufficient punishment. Here is the initial passage in
I Corinthians 5:
"1 I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you, something so evil that even the pagans don't do it. I am told that you have a man in your church who is living in sin with his father's wife.
2 And you are so proud of yourselves! Why aren't you mourning in sorrow and shame? And why haven't you removed this man from your fellowship?
3 Even though I am not there with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit. Concerning the one who has done this, I have already passed judgment
4 in the name of the Lord Jesus. You are to call a meeting of the church, and I will be there in spirit, and the power of the Lord Jesus will be with you as you meet. 5 Then you must cast this man out of the church and into Satan's hands, so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved when the Lord returns.
6 How terrible that you should boast about your spirituality, and yet you let this sort of thing go on. Don't you realize that if even one person is allowed to go on sinning, soon all will be affected? 7 Remove this wicked person from among you so that you can stay pure. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us. 8 So let us celebrate the festival, not by eating the old bread of wickedness and evil, but by eating the new bread of purity and truth.
9 When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin.
10 But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that.
11 What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people.
12 It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways.
13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."(NLT)
It does not say be understanding and forgive them prior to them figuring out they did something terribly wrong. It does not say to forgive them BEFORE they ask or with their new lifestyle show change. It says to get away from them.
Now in IICorinthians it can be argued, God then wants us to forgive them. But I still do not see where we are to forgive and love and welcome them back without there being a CHANGE on the part of the sinner first -- or where the sinner has hasn't asked.
In many of the TWI leaders it has been a long time. But they went on their merry way doing the same crap under a different heading -- be it CES or otherwise... I say - Genuinely change. OR humbly and believably ask for my forgiveness and I am more than willing to offer it in exchange for an apology. If you forgive someone and welcome them back and their behavior is EXACTLY the same then you are not condeming the behavior you are condoning it and saying it is okay. Jsut like with kids do you hug them after they burn down the house? Or do you show them what they did wrong and hug them when they get it? If you hug them too quickly they will think burning down houses is okay with you....
Some think if you haven't forgiven you hold hatred. That is your interpretation not mine.
Forgive me if this has been covered earlier. Jesus made forgiveness conditional, at least in this case:KJV Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.KJV Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.Hmmm
I'd say you want to talk about it. Geeze you wrote a book. No need to stop in daily when you post in one stop what most post in a year. Talking about seeking validation. Jesus will give you that as well as forgiveness. You're not so deep, Plato! Love.
I can forgive the man, but that does not require me to forget the facts. There is still a spector in many of the splinters "Teaching" and using many of the same control techniques. It must end.
I for one do not agree that forgiveness MUST include forgetting. Forgetting would mean that trust would be re-instated again. I firmly believe that trust must be built one action at a time.
Frankly, I think Jesus would vomit at what happened to his believers. I think it would anger him to see it was calculated.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!
Or I see something like this---
Acts.5.6 The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
Acts.5.9 But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”
Acts.5.10 Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
My Jesus knew the old Testament where it says this:
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes,
and prudent in their own sight!"
Isaiah 5:20-21
Sometimes, the picture of the sweet anorexic Jesus is a portrait of a sissy. I think he was bold, gutsy, told it like it was and that WAS love. I think he was tender and came to the rescue when real people cried out for help or forgiveness. My Jesus backed the stone throwers off of Mary. I did not see him telling her the only way she would feel better was to forgive them. He helped her get her crap together and she dug him. (Now, most pick other things out in that verse but if you look there is more...) I picture my Jesus poking a finger into the chest of anyone who would deliberately hurt one of his kids and tell them to back off. And Paul, well he did some bad stuff but he also REPENTED and was forgiven.
People who wrong others repent then they are forgiven. People who are drowning and ask for God to help them are redeemed. Now this is loose and does not have the finesse' of Research Geek but that is how I see the Jesus I call Lord.
I see him as a sweet, fair, loving marine. Who could put teeth into something when needed. Not as a flower throwing hippie..
I see my Jesus talking about redemption. And that would be between THEM and Jesus. And if they really went before God and asked for forgiveness then they would have "themselves" reflected to them. And they would WANT to seek forgiveness from those they have hurt.
There was a minister in TWI who was a real jerk to me and other women in PA. He was an azzhole. He asked God for forgiveness then he wrote a letter to the women in PA and asked for forgiveness. I gotta hand it to him. In a split second, I forgave him and I think he is an alright guy, a man's man to own up to things and to ask for forgiveness. To date, he is the only one who asked for my forgiveness. And I was delighted to forgive him.
I have searched for those I hurt, and when I found them I asked them to please forgive me. You know why? I felt badly about what I had done. For those I cannot find, I ask God to bless them and somehow tell them how sory I am.
Ya know even AA (and I rarely drink but know people who have gone) they have a step where the perpetrator has to go apologize to those they have wronged. Now that is a secular group with a spiritual underpinning and they know TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS is key
They do not go to a meeting and hear, "I am sure they have forgiven you as it would have hurt them more to stay mad."
No, they hear "to own up to the destruction they have caused and ask for forgiveness". Sometimes they get forgiven. Sometimes they do not but it is their job TO ASK, To SEEK, TO humble themselves before their "judge" and allow what they have done to be pointed out to them.
But in TWI -- what do they do -- they don't ask for forgiveness they just start a splinter with little or no reflection on what they did to hurt God's people or wht they did to wander off the path to begin with...
Redeemed:
re·deem (rĭ-dēm') Pronunciation Key
tr.v. re·deemed, re·deem·ing, re·deems
To recover ownership of by paying a specified sum.
To pay off (a promissory note, for example).
To turn in (coupons, for example) and receive something in exchange.
To fulfill (a pledge, for example).
To convert into cash: redeem stocks.
To set free; rescue or ransom.
To save from a state of sinfulness and its consequences. See Synonyms at save1.
To make up for: The low price of the clothes dryer redeems its lack of special features.
To restore the honor, worth, or reputation of: You botched the last job but can redeem yourself on this one.
Now thats HEART this is what it's all about great sharing kid.
This thread which spans 3 years and some 33 pages of posts, cuts into the heart of the matter as it relates to each individual...
My take on all of this?...
...Jesus called the pharisees some pretty nasty names for what they had done and I don't see any scriptures that shows where Jesus forgave them...this IS the original question that was asked by greek, isn't it?
As it has been pointed out numerous times, twi continues in it's sin and does not seek my forgiveness...end of story.
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Dot Matrix
Frankly, I think Jesus would vomit at what happened to his believers. I think it would anger him to see it was calculated.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!
Or I see something like this---
Acts.5.6 The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
Acts.5.9 But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”
Acts.5.10 Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
My Jesus knew the old Testament where it says this:
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes,
and prudent in their own sight!"
Isaiah 5:20-21
Sometimes, the picture of the sweet anorexic Jesus is a portrait of a sissy. I think he was bold, gutsy, told it like it was and that WAS love. I think he was tender and came to the rescue when real people cried out for help or forgiveness. My Jesus backed the stone throwers off of Mary. I did not see him telling her the only way she would feel better was to forgive them. He helped her get her crap together and she dug him. (Now, most pick other things out in that verse but if you look there is more...) I picture my Jesus poking a finger into the chest of anyone who would deliberately hurt one of his kids and tell them to back off. And Paul, well he did some bad stuff but he also REPENTED and was forgiven.
People who wrong others repent then they are forgiven. People who are drowning and ask for God to help them are redeemed. Now this is loose and does not have the finesse' of Research Geek but that is how I see the Jesus I call Lord.
I see him as a sweet, fair, loving marine. Who could put teeth into something when needed. Not as a flower throwing hippie..
I see my Jesus talking about redemption. And that would be between THEM and Jesus. And if they really went before God and asked for forgiveness then they would have "themselves" reflected to them. And they would WANT to seek forgiveness from those they have hurt.
There was a minister in TWI who was a real jerk to me and other women in PA. He was an azzhole. He asked God for forgiveness then he wrote a letter to the women in PA and asked for forgiveness. I gotta hand it to him. In a split second, I forgave him and I think he is an alright guy, a man's man to own up to things and to ask for forgiveness. To date, he is the only one who asked for my forgiveness. And I was delighted to forgive him.
I have searched for those I hurt, and when I found them I asked them to please forgive me. You know why? I felt badly about what I had done. For those I cannot find, I ask God to bless them and somehow tell them how sory I am.
Ya know even AA (and I rarely drink but know people who have gone) they have a step where the perpetrator has to go apologize to those they have wronged. Now that is a secular group with a spiritual underpinning and they know TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS is key
They do not go to a meeting and hear, "I am sure they have forgiven you as it would have hurt them more to stay mad."
No, they hear "to own up to the destruction they have caused and ask for forgiveness". Sometimes they get forgiven. Sometimes they do not but it is their job TO ASK, To SEEK, TO humble themselves before their "judge" and allow what they have done to be pointed out to them.
But in TWI -- what do they do -- they don't ask for forgiveness they just start a splinter with little or no reflection on what they did to hurt God's people or wht they did to wander off the path to begin with...
Redeemed:
re·deem (rĭ-dēm') Pronunciation Key
tr.v. re·deemed, re·deem·ing, re·deems
To recover ownership of by paying a specified sum.
To pay off (a promissory note, for example).
To turn in (coupons, for example) and receive something in exchange.
To fulfill (a pledge, for example).
To convert into cash: redeem stocks.
To set free; rescue or ransom.
To save from a state of sinfulness and its consequences. See Synonyms at save1.
To make up for: The low price of the clothes dryer redeems its lack of special features.
To restore the honor, worth, or reputation of: You botched the last job but can redeem yourself on this one.
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excathedra
veepee always laughed at that verse, didn't he ?
i can't read this thread again. it would be like sitting through pfal again.....
sowwy
what is about ? forgiving if i remember correctly....
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Dot Matrix
I don't know if he laughed or was afraid the feet of them were outside the BRC...
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Danny
no the bus driver was behind him with the gun. why oh why did he need
someone with a gun.
there is a group -band called mercy me they have a song called
i can only imagin sp talking about heaven but would be about the same for our lord
i have asked for forgiveness for being so stupid. sin
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excathedra
yeah dottie
i gotta read and digest the absolve forgiveness thing when i have time
love,ex
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Dot Matrix
Danny
I love that song
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Dot Matrix
Something I found re: TheCatholic church and Pedophilia
Points can be extrapulated to this thread
The Word of God deals with these type of situations almost exclusively in a couple passages. Since I believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God, I believe it is relevant for our lives today. But it doesn't appear that the Catholic church decided to consult it in resolution of these "modern-day" problems.
In the book of I Corinthians, Paul learns about a serious sexual sin that arose in the Corinthian church, then gave instructions to them on how to deal with it. In a later letter, he admonished them to let the brother back in the church after sufficient punishment. Here is the initial passage in
I Corinthians 5:
"1 I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you, something so evil that even the pagans don't do it. I am told that you have a man in your church who is living in sin with his father's wife.
2 And you are so proud of yourselves! Why aren't you mourning in sorrow and shame? And why haven't you removed this man from your fellowship?
3 Even though I am not there with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit. Concerning the one who has done this, I have already passed judgment
4 in the name of the Lord Jesus. You are to call a meeting of the church, and I will be there in spirit, and the power of the Lord Jesus will be with you as you meet. 5 Then you must cast this man out of the church and into Satan's hands, so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved when the Lord returns.
6 How terrible that you should boast about your spirituality, and yet you let this sort of thing go on. Don't you realize that if even one person is allowed to go on sinning, soon all will be affected? 7 Remove this wicked person from among you so that you can stay pure. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us. 8 So let us celebrate the festival, not by eating the old bread of wickedness and evil, but by eating the new bread of purity and truth.
9 When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin.
10 But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that.
11 What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people.
12 It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways.
13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."(NLT)
It does not say be understanding and forgive them prior to them figuring out they did something terribly wrong. It does not say to forgive them BEFORE they ask or with their new lifestyle show change. It says to get away from them.
Now in IICorinthians it can be argued, God then wants us to forgive them. But I still do not see where we are to forgive and love and welcome them back without there being a CHANGE on the part of the sinner first -- or where the sinner has hasn't asked.
In many of the TWI leaders it has been a long time. But they went on their merry way doing the same crap under a different heading -- be it CES or otherwise... I say - Genuinely change. OR humbly and believably ask for my forgiveness and I am more than willing to offer it in exchange for an apology. If you forgive someone and welcome them back and their behavior is EXACTLY the same then you are not condeming the behavior you are condoning it and saying it is okay. Jsut like with kids do you hug them after they burn down the house? Or do you show them what they did wrong and hug them when they get it? If you hug them too quickly they will think burning down houses is okay with you....
Some think if you haven't forgiven you hold hatred. That is your interpretation not mine.
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Dot Matrix
PS I love what Evan brought up
edited for typos, I always have them..
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wuzawayfer
I'd say you want to talk about it. Geeze you wrote a book. No need to stop in daily when you post in one stop what most post in a year. Talking about seeking validation. Jesus will give you that as well as forgiveness. You're not so deep, Plato! Love.
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Wanderer
I can forgive the man, but that does not require me to forget the facts. There is still a spector in many of the splinters "Teaching" and using many of the same control techniques. It must end.
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doojable
I for one do not agree that forgiveness MUST include forgetting. Forgetting would mean that trust would be re-instated again. I firmly believe that trust must be built one action at a time.
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excathedra
wow zer! :)
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Bolshevik
Has TWI admitted mistakes and asked for forgiveness?
Does twi not still inflict suffering?
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Captain Spiritural
Now thats HEART this is what it's all about great sharing kid.
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Nottawayfer
They were in 2002 when I left. What about you, Bolshevik? You left recently did you not? Why did you leave?
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Bolshevik
because every time I tried to apply the Word as twi taught, I would get a reproof session
because the more I commited to twi, the emptier I felt and the more I began to believe that God hates me.
edited for grammer
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GrouchoMarxJr
This thread which spans 3 years and some 33 pages of posts, cuts into the heart of the matter as it relates to each individual...
My take on all of this?...
...Jesus called the pharisees some pretty nasty names for what they had done and I don't see any scriptures that shows where Jesus forgave them...this IS the original question that was asked by greek, isn't it?
As it has been pointed out numerous times, twi continues in it's sin and does not seek my forgiveness...end of story.
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