I have a problem with Luke 17...or more likely with my following it...any help?
Seriously, I try to put myself in the place of having someone wrong me, and apologizing, and I forgiving them, then having that same person wrong me again and again and again...to 7 times...and each time coming back and saying "I'm sorry." Quite honestly, I would have trouble believing that repentance. Anyone see where I am coming from?
But Jesus said forgive. Maybe I am not the judge of his/her true repentence (or lack thereof), even if I am the one who has been wronged?
When does anyone DESERVE forgiveness? We of course dont deserve God's. I think forgiveness may be a gift. I am told to forgive, but I don't know if the person has really repented or not. Maybe the person is forgiven if he/she accepts the gift by repenting, even though there may be no way for me to know if he/she has REALLY repented. That is, whether I or someone else has been wronged, I don't know their heart...only God knows.
I can forgive I feel I should and I chose to 7 times 70 , but Lifted remeber when he tells the disciples if a person doesnt greet you the first or second time , then be done with them.
this is all about setting boundaries in life do not allow people to use you..it is very biblical.
jesus was not a doormat for people in fact at times his impatience with the human condition and complaints compelled him to complain to them, call them names, and bitch them out with truth.
when every one was weeping for the death of Lazaris and Mary out right bitched that if had the shown up earlier implying if he really loved them he would have, none of this would have happened in other words she blamed Jesus for the situation.
did he say oh Im so sorry Mary what a bad messiah I am, shame on me let me make it up to you and or other guilt ridden comments?
no He got smart with his mouth and snapped at her and said Im glad Im not the one who died , with all your unbelief. he insulted her or gave her the truth on a silver platter he did NOT coward to her whiny accusations he forgave her and of course raised him from the dead. he didnt allow others to abuse him verbaly or in any way intimidate him as a man . the think we can and should apply the same truths to our own life and how we forgive others. God loves us because we are wonderfully made in His image, we must believe it about ourself before we can truly believe God said so.
I have a relative who can at times call me names, it has gotten to a point where I just have to raise my hand and he will stop. His environment encourages name calling and insult to one another , I will not allow it in my life and I do love the guy , but he isnt allowed to call me names even unknowingly . I forgive him when he stops I have worked with him on why he feels this is needed he doesnt realize it hurts another i truly believe that. I forgive him but this relationship takes work to set up where each can communicate well and in a healthy manner as does every good relationship ESP if God is in it.
Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass
against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Original Statement: If he repents, then [you] forgive
The INVERSE is: If he does not repent then do not forgive.
The CONVERSE is: If you forgive then he repents
The inverse and the converse are logically equivalent. So if the converse is true then the inverse will also be true and vice versa.
Common sense tells us that our forgiveness will not necesarily cause someone to repent. So then the converse is not true - therefore the inverse is also not true.
What is true then is the original statement. If someone truly repents then we should forgive them. However this does not logically imply that we are not to forgive if a person does not repent. In others words, we are not told to withhold forgiveness for lack of repentance, neither are we told to forgive those that don't repent. These choices seem to have been left up to us.
Personally, I think that forgiving those that repeatedly do serious harm and who do not repent (change) - is pretty foolish - especially if they are "leaders" with some kind of authority. Do not mistake "repentance" with a forced or insincere apology for getting caught. They are not the same thing.
Also, IMO it is eroneous, wrong and unthinking to label folks as "bitter" who chose to withhold forgiveness because someone refuses to repent.
Geeeze, I haven't read the totallity of this thread or anything, been busy.
But geeeze loueeeeze, seems like Geek and Cat hit a nerve. At least they were brave enough to ask the question.....gotta give them kudos for that. Anybody who has the patience and kindness to sort through all this stuff, has my admiration for life.
Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass
against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Original Statement: If he repents, then [you] forgive
The INVERSE is: If he does not repent then do not forgive.
The CONVERSE is: If you forgive then he repents (or has repented)
The inverse and the converse are logically equivalent. So if the converse is true then the inverse will also be true and vice versa.
Indeed, that was my point. Incidentally, the CONTRAPOSITIVE of the original statement would be "If you don't forgive him, he hasn't repented." This IS logically equivalent to the original statement. (If repentance demands forgiveness, then lack of forgiveness requires lack of repentance.) But, neither the inverse nor the converse follow from this. So,
When they pay their dues to God and he forgives them, great!.....same deal with me...if they pay their dues owed to me, I personally will forgive them....untill they pay their debt...they ain`t getting no stinkin reciept.
one thing is for sheetin sure, the way (wierwille in particular) and then mantle head made me feel like i OWED THEM SOMETHING. what a bunch of crap. i owed them nothing. WHAT HAS THE WORD COST YOU ??????? ugh
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Lifted Up
I have a problem with Luke 17...or more likely with my following it...any help?
Seriously, I try to put myself in the place of having someone wrong me, and apologizing, and I forgiving them, then having that same person wrong me again and again and again...to 7 times...and each time coming back and saying "I'm sorry." Quite honestly, I would have trouble believing that repentance. Anyone see where I am coming from?
But Jesus said forgive. Maybe I am not the judge of his/her true repentence (or lack thereof), even if I am the one who has been wronged?
When does anyone DESERVE forgiveness? We of course dont deserve God's. I think forgiveness may be a gift. I am told to forgive, but I don't know if the person has really repented or not. Maybe the person is forgiven if he/she accepts the gift by repenting, even though there may be no way for me to know if he/she has REALLY repented. That is, whether I or someone else has been wronged, I don't know their heart...only God knows.
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excathedra
seriously, did i ask to be born in sin ? at enmity (sp?) with god ? who the hell are adam and eve ?
mind you, i'm a "faith" believer type person
but it sure seems screwy to me
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excathedra
ps. i grew up feeling like a scumbag as most abused kids do
so when i found out about god's mercy, i was so grateful, since i figured i was wrong to begin with as a child
some of this can be very very confusing
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mj412
I can forgive I feel I should and I chose to 7 times 70 , but Lifted remeber when he tells the disciples if a person doesnt greet you the first or second time , then be done with them.
this is all about setting boundaries in life do not allow people to use you..it is very biblical.
jesus was not a doormat for people in fact at times his impatience with the human condition and complaints compelled him to complain to them, call them names, and bitch them out with truth.
when every one was weeping for the death of Lazaris and Mary out right bitched that if had the shown up earlier implying if he really loved them he would have, none of this would have happened in other words she blamed Jesus for the situation.
did he say oh Im so sorry Mary what a bad messiah I am, shame on me let me make it up to you and or other guilt ridden comments?
no He got smart with his mouth and snapped at her and said Im glad Im not the one who died , with all your unbelief. he insulted her or gave her the truth on a silver platter he did NOT coward to her whiny accusations he forgave her and of course raised him from the dead. he didnt allow others to abuse him verbaly or in any way intimidate him as a man . the think we can and should apply the same truths to our own life and how we forgive others. God loves us because we are wonderfully made in His image, we must believe it about ourself before we can truly believe God said so.
I have a relative who can at times call me names, it has gotten to a point where I just have to raise my hand and he will stop. His environment encourages name calling and insult to one another , I will not allow it in my life and I do love the guy , but he isnt allowed to call me names even unknowingly . I forgive him when he stops I have worked with him on why he feels this is needed he doesnt realize it hurts another i truly believe that. I forgive him but this relationship takes work to set up where each can communicate well and in a healthy manner as does every good relationship ESP if God is in it.
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excathedra
can you repeat that ?
what the heck are you talking about mj ?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Are you ready for this?
excathedra
can you repeat that ?
whoops[
sws/I]
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mj412
reread maybe it will not come to ya.
if not move on. sorry your confused . kind of.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
ahh mj,
so you do understand confussion?
kewl
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mj412
song
sometimes I even prefer it .
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
jesus was not a doormat for people
me too
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excathedra
i'm sorry mj about "what the heck are you talking about"
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Goey
Someone brought up logic on this ........
Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass
against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Original Statement: If he repents, then [you] forgive
The INVERSE is: If he does not repent then do not forgive.
The CONVERSE is: If you forgive then he repents
The inverse and the converse are logically equivalent. So if the converse is true then the inverse will also be true and vice versa.
Common sense tells us that our forgiveness will not necesarily cause someone to repent. So then the converse is not true - therefore the inverse is also not true.
What is true then is the original statement. If someone truly repents then we should forgive them. However this does not logically imply that we are not to forgive if a person does not repent. In others words, we are not told to withhold forgiveness for lack of repentance, neither are we told to forgive those that don't repent. These choices seem to have been left up to us.
Personally, I think that forgiving those that repeatedly do serious harm and who do not repent (change) - is pretty foolish - especially if they are "leaders" with some kind of authority. Do not mistake "repentance" with a forced or insincere apology for getting caught. They are not the same thing.
Also, IMO it is eroneous, wrong and unthinking to label folks as "bitter" who chose to withhold forgiveness because someone refuses to repent.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
"Are you ready for this?"
GOE
I did not know Converse made Inverse sizes.
This is where I exit this thread.
Sir Early,
You have spoken well good man.
Your arrow splits the arrow in the circle.
Thank You
Song
btps~~~ whatever happened to that primo set of "saw benches" ?
Rok On roK oN
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ex10
Geeeze, I haven't read the totallity of this thread or anything, been busy.
But geeeze loueeeeze, seems like Geek and Cat hit a nerve. At least they were brave enough to ask the question.....gotta give them kudos for that. Anybody who has the patience and kindness to sort through all this stuff, has my admiration for life.
Love,
ex10
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Goey
Song,
Those sawbenches are in use today as I am completing the construction of a new cafe/restaurant which we hope to open sometime next week.
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excathedra
WOW goey. you're opening a cafe ?!?!?! what are you naming it ?
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Belle
Yeah! What kind of menu will you have? Do tell! We want details. Sounds really great!
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GeorgeStGeorge
Indeed, that was my point. Incidentally, the CONTRAPOSITIVE of the original statement would be "If you don't forgive him, he hasn't repented." This IS logically equivalent to the original statement. (If repentance demands forgiveness, then lack of forgiveness requires lack of repentance.) But, neither the inverse nor the converse follow from this. So,
If he repents, FORGIVE.
If he doesn't repent, forgive if you want to!
George
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Lifted Up
This just now happened to me...Got a notice about an overdue bill. Because I got this notice, I'd better pay up.
Or, in other words, if you have an overdue ballance on your account...???
If you get a notice, pay the bill.
Does it follow...
If you don't get a notice, pay the bill if you want to.
????
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rascal
Yeah, they OWE God ...they OWE me ...
When they pay their dues to God and he forgives them, great!.....same deal with me...if they pay their dues owed to me, I personally will forgive them....untill they pay their debt...they ain`t getting no stinkin reciept.
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excathedra
one thing is for sheetin sure, the way (wierwille in particular) and then mantle head made me feel like i OWED THEM SOMETHING. what a bunch of crap. i owed them nothing. WHAT HAS THE WORD COST YOU ??????? ugh
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excathedra
what has "the word" cost me ?
ya want a list ?
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rascal
(((ex)))you paid a heavy price ....
Damn, sounds like a new thread topic.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Actually, a better analogy would be:
When a bill is due, (you must) pay it.
Before a bill is due, pay it if you want to.
George
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