I wonder what Jesus would say if he read our posts on Greasespot. That's an interesting question, isn't it?
We're a mixed lot: some oldster greasespotters who check out the forums once in a while, but have mostly moved past their prolific posting days, some regulars who still get something out of posting every day, many lurkers who come here to witness this menagerie, and some newbies who really need this forum to air their emotions and seek reinforcement and validation for their feelings and experiences. I come here once in a while to test the wind. I'd like to float this idea to see what you all think. Maybe, for some it will be the appropriate time to consider this, for others not, I know this, so if you are not ready for this yet, OK, maybe later...
One of the loftiest, yet most essential concepts introduced by Jesus Christ, and one of the most foundational tenents of first-century Christianity is forgiveness. It undeniably is one of the most difficult teachings of Jesus to attain, but also is undeniably one of the most healing in its effects. We all have been hurt by lcm and his henchmen, or by other people connected with twi. Some of the offenders are no longer affiliated with twi, some are dead, others are still sitting pretty in that outfit. Meanwhile we are trying to get on with our lives after suffering various levels of abuse by the hands of these aforementioned twi representatives. My question to you is are you ready to try some forgiveness?
What you say, shall I let them off the hook? They are impenitent still so they do not deserve it! But consider who gets the most benefits from forgiveness. Does the forgiver or the offender benefit the most? From what I have witnessed on Greasespot, there are many of us who still harbor negative feelings for those who abused us. These negative feelings range from minor irritation all the way to vehement revenge. But consider this before you direct a salvo my way... Oftentimes the offender is oblivious, yet we steam, so who is affected more? We are. And undoubtedly these negaitve felings hurt us far more than those they are directed against.
So I ask, is anyone ready for some forgiveness? Is it not true that Job was not healed until he could bring himself to pray for his friends? Is it not true that Jesus told us to pray for our enemies and to love them. Was Jesus nuts, or did he have our best interests in mind? Consider what forgiveness may bring to you. Does anyone want to talk about this?"
Clearly Geek is pointing his finger at everyone and singled out specificaly who to forgive.
Yet he will not answer any questions, not even his own.
"Does anyone want to talk about this?"
Geek doesn't want to talk. Maybe he just enjoys the fights, I don't know. He won't answer anyone's questions apparently.
why is it that there is this suppossition that forgiveness is the only proccess for katharsis. It is a narrow fundamentalist christian idea that there are no other options.
I find that limiting and self-righteous as if it all hangs on the forgiver....
What is brought to me ( to make passive the active verb in Geeks sentence) what....? I really dont think its the only thing to think about, or the only process to go through...
I also dont think CFFM or any ministry - certianly not Way or Way offshoots have a corner on the so called christian psychology that is the pretense for the purpose of forgiveness.
sorry for the misunderstanding catcup. i was talking about nick c------ who i thought was an ordained minister in CFF. he was the one who told dottie she couldn't wipe her butt without wierwille.... and some other nice things
and you're right, i'm sorry, it has nothing to do with geek and you, except that geek and he are ministers in the same church so i think of them as likeminded somewhat
and i can't help feeling that the CFF group seems to be wierwillites of this our day and time. so when i hear the forgiveness rap from geek, i tend to put the two together in my mind
Cat, you have sure become rude...Why? What has hardened you? Does it have something to do with the offshoot that you are part of?
My questions were genuine, believe it or not...and directed at geek....you keep turning this into something it never was...an attack on Geek...it has nothing to do with you.
As for your question..the people Geek mentioned were lcm, his henchmen and others involved in twi....
Ex, if you are talking about the same Nik that Dot Matrix was talking to me about, he is NOT in my "group," he is with TWI.
As for a Nick C---, I do not personally know a Nick C---, but if he in fact said what you say he did, this person is insensitive, clueless, and abusive REGARDLESS OF WHO HE FELLOWSHIPS WITH, and had no right to say such a hurtful FALSE thing to Dot.
And it has nothing to do with me or Geek.
As for CFF, the structure is much different than TWI. It is my understanding that not only individual people, small home fellowships, or groups of whole fellowships, but also other whole ministries "affiliate" with CFF. That means we fellowship together, while we do not exercise control over each other doctrinally or otherwise. Doctrinally we can "agree to disagree" on a variety of issues. That allows us to simply fellowship with people who agree on their love for our Lord Jesus Christ.
It is also my understanding that CFF does not exercise the kind of doctrinal and personal control over people who choose to be affiliated with them that TWI exercises over its possessions.
It is also my understanding from John Shroyer that abusive behavior will not be tolerated from either leadership or people in the fellowship.
My advice for anyone with first hand knowledge of such behavior would be to take it straight to him. I say that because I don't have first hand knowlege of it, so if I did tried to handle it, it would be hearsay. So, the person who was offended might want to pursue it with him.
I have found personally, Shroyer to be very approachable and not offended to be asked hard questions about such things. Before I decided to attend a single meeting, I had a straight, no holds barred conversation with the man and told him I would not put up with being involved in a ministry that allowed abuse of any kind.
Shroyer was not offended at my questions and I was not shy about asking. He assured me that the kinds of abuses I experienced in TWI would not be tolerated in CFF. He also made a public statement regarding not tolerating adultery in CFF.
I know for a fact Shroyer understands that Jon and I do not associate with anyone who feels that "you could not wipe your butt without Wierwille."
Jon and I formally consider such statements abusive.
Anybody who truly KNOWS us knows that.
Neither Geek NOR I would ever claim that a person is "nobody" without TWI or PFAL or Wierwille.
Nor is it the position of anyone we want to be associated with.
"Cat, you have sure become rude...Why? What has hardened you??
Rascal, I was about to say the same thing to you. NO ONE is telling you or anyone else to forgive anyone. You have jumped to conclusions. I am not the one being rude here, dear. I have been starkly surprised at the personal attacks, insinuations, and outright lies that are posted on this thread, and I am surprised at YOUR attitude.
I have said that I do not believe I can tell anyone who or when or if or what they should forgive. I have said that is up to the person and between them and God. And it is not for me to judge a person who decides not to forgive someone.
I've also stated that I believe it is wrong for anyone to demand a person who has been horribly wronged to forgive their offender.
And as a matter of fact, that IS Geek's position as well.
Asking a simple question here, showed how some folks can jump to conclusions, and misread another's intent. And, even when a position is clarified, those who just want to fight stay on it like a dog on a bone.
He simply asked if anyone was ready to forgive. He is not TELLING you to, and there is a huge difference.
"LCM and his henchmen" can be anyone from a BOT member down to your local TC or even someone else in your fellowship, if they carried out his orders.
Some people have worked things out between them and the other person. Those people were ready at that point. Others of us are not ready. For a multitude of damn good reasons, I might add.
For instance, as I said before, I forgave Don Wierwille, former BOT member, for what he did to me, because he apologized specifically and privately to me. However, he may not have apologized to YOU if he offended YOU.
I can forgive him for what he did to me, but I have no authority to let him off the hook for what he did to YOU, and I DON'T.
Now, I ask, how is that offensive to you?
I have forgiven Don Wierwille, but I have NOT forgiven LCM, LP, MW, and several others who have NOT apologized to me. If they did, I might consider what they said. If afterwards I decided to forgive them, I would be letting them off the hook ONLY for what they did to me.
I would not, nor do I have the authority, to let them off the hook for what they did to YOU.
Now, how is that so offensive to you?
How did it become so offensive to ask if anyone was ready to forgive them? At the same time Geek is asking you the question, he is asking me as well.
I'm not offended to say I was ready to forgive Don Wierwille, but NOT ready to forgive the rest of them, and won't even consider it until they ask.
How that question is so offensive, I have no idea. My family was devastated as much or even more in some cases than the next person. I am not offended if someone asks me if I am ready to forgive. I'm not offended at the question, and I am not embarassed at the answer. Nor do I feel like I am being accused of being wrong because I choose NOT to let LCM and others off the hook.
I don't get it why some folks still feel like they are being told by us to forgive, or are being condemned for not being forgiving, when asked that question, -- Unless they are just plain shell-shocked from the constant barrage leveled against them while they were in TWI, and feel like that is what we are doing. Now, that, I can understand.
If that is the case, please know again, that is not our intent. We have no condemnation for anyone regarding whom they do or do not forgive regarding your experience in TWI.
I have clarified our intent several times-- it is not to condemn, but to simply ask.
Now if some still choose to pick and twist at words and read into them, that is their choice.
I have plainly told you that you are not condemned by us for what happened to you or what another person did to you, or for your choice to forgive or not to forgive. We believe that is an issue that lies squarely between the person and God.
Nor are WE responsible for what another person did to you.
I can admire a person for actually forgiving someone who has grievously wronged them. That has to come from some incredible strength in that individual, and compassion, which I believe is always admirable.
What is wrong with admiring that in a person?
At the same time I do NOT condemn another person who has been so heinously gutstripped that they cannot forgive an unrepentant abuser.
Nor do I believe they are obligated to.
As a matter of fact, I admire a person for NOT letting an unrepentant serial abuser like Martindale et al off the hook.
I just have to shake my head in disbelief at the way this thread has gone. From the very beginning, Geek's question seemed like a perfectly innocent and honest one. I DID NOT get the impression that he was "shaking his finger in anyone's face" or attempting to shame anyone into forgiving anyone. Likewise,I don't understand why Catcup has been so doggedly vilified, and insulted by people like Cowgirl (have the two ever even met?), when she has been VERY clear in her stance on the topic of forgiveness this entire time, and has never waivered. And it seems like a perfectly reasonable stance to take (one that, to me, has nothing to do with her having ever been Corp). So what's the deal? Is the mere prospect of forgiveness so onerous, that anyone even broaching it should be treated like an emmisary of the WayGB?
I don't know Catcup, and I don't know Geek. I've never fellowshiped with either one of them, nor with CFF. But they've been respected, outspoken, and intelligent critics of The Way International here on Greasespot (and before that, Waydale) for many years. So, why are they suddenly the targets of such ire, and yes---judgement, on this thread?
Now, my personal take on the topic of forgiveness--- As far as I can ascertain, forgiveness is NOT absolution. It is NOT a blank check to continue to injure or destroy. And it's CERTAINLY NOT a mandate to ever trust the forgiven party again. It is merely an psychological (and yes, even at times spiritual) tool that the offended may SOMETIMES find useful in setting themselves free to live without the continual torture that comes with hurt feelings, and heart-nawing bitterness.
Notice, I said, SOMETIMES...
Obviously, it's a deeply personal decision, one which a person literally cannot do, unless and until he/she sees a profit in doing so. And you can forgive with or without concern about what "God says about forgiveness". Plenty of people who don't even believe in God have chosen to extend forgiveness at some point or another. They chose to do so because they desired to turn their back on the pain and walk away. That's really all that forgiveness is about. Turning your back on the pain and emotionally WALKING AWAY. It's not easy, and in many cases, it's not even possible. It's not about what's "right" or "wrong". It's about what's best for the person making the decision to do so---OR NOT!
Whew. Thanks, Cherished Child-- I was beginning to feel like I was suddenly not speaking english anymore.
And I agree that forgiveness is not a blank check for the offender to continue the same hurtful behavior. In my opinion, that's how you know if someone is truly sorry-- it involves a change of behavior.
I believe there are two kinds of sorry: One is the person is sorry they are suffering the consequences. The other is, the offender is sorry for their behavior, which includes action on the part of the offender to change it.
People are not always ready to change to suit me and make me happy.
Love isnt selfish that demands another toe the line of behaviour or life style that pleases another.
that is abuse really. to demand another change is not love at all it is a dictator who wants to control .
If you love somone do they need to abide by your rules and regullations only? and if they can not or do not will you never forgive them ? Is that a threat to the relationship that manipulates the situation to go only in the manner you think is right or wrong or eles you can no longer care or love them?
IM lucky I have lived in a bigger love from many. I have been loved and forgivness and it is the only thing that allows the same to another .
sure i have relationships I need to set boundaries with , No I can not give you all my money right now and you can get angry at that fact it is ok I love you will you forgive me for not being able to meet your needs?
I feel hurt I can not stay at your home while Im in town I had looked forward to spending time with you as a friend and made plans, Im sory your child is sick and I must make other arrangements now.
boundaries and forgivness is needed in every relationship.
conseguences are a part of decisions catcup and we all make decsions and often without regard to the feelings or needs of another. If I do not want to continue in the relationship I can end the relationship and forgive them for the pain or misunderstanding , or the only other choice to to keep working on the relationship and forgive , the ball is always in the indivdual doing the forgivness court.
You asked, "How did it become so offensive to ask if anyone was ready to forgive them?"
I think because implied in saying, "are you ready" is the thought that you SHOULD be ready, sooner or later. And it is the "should" that gives me pause. Apparently, I am not the only one. Perhaps if Geek had said, "I decided to forgive, and here's why" or "should we forgive, how do you feel about it" (he says something like that later on in the post), it would have gone over better.
Cat, you explained your position on forgiveness well. (And I agree with what you've said on the topic.) We never did hear it from Geek, who started the thread. If you both have the same take on forgiveness, it would be nice to hear that from Geek, who started the thread and said he would respond. I can understand getting unexpectedly too busy or sick to respond, but threads have a way of going on without their originators, fer sure! It's just the nature of the thing.
You said, "I don't get it why some folks still feel like they are being told by us to forgive, or are being condemned for not being forgiving, when asked that question, -- Unless they are just plain shell-shocked from the constant barrage leveled against them while they were in TWI, and feel like that is what we are doing. Now, that, I can understand." That may explain it for some of us. I would think that those who suffered through a lot of the LCM years would not want anyone even hinting that they SHOULD be doing something that has spiritual overtones. (As Geek put it, "One of the loftiest, yet most essential concepts introduced by Jesus Christ, and one of the most foundational tenents of first-century Christianity is forgiveness," etc.)
As for me, Wierwille owed me an apology, and I asked for it, never got it. He is dead, it is over. I can apply Geek's question to my ex, however, who still stands with TWI. No repentance on his part, no forgiveness from me. And yes, his sins against me were cold and calculated, and would remind you of the mindset of LCM.
Perhaps we are being overly picky about Geek's words. If so, I am sure he can clarify, and re-state where he is coming from on this subject.
However, I do appreciate YOUR opinion on the topic of forgiveness, Catcup.
I will clarify this: I do believe that there are people who are so self-centered that when they screw up, they are only sorry for the trouble it causes themselves. And there are those who get past that to see that they have hurt an innocent person, and are sorry for what they caused them.
But you are right, it can very well be seen as controlling to say --"I won't forgive you until..."
I am reminded of what my husband tells me all the time: "It's not 'I love you if, or I love you when, or I love you until'-- it's 'I love you.' period." Unconditional love is what God shares with us, and it is what my husband and I strive to give each other. And it is what people seem they could be extending when they forgive someone who seems unforgivable.
And I know that it is that kind of love that can pull someone out of bad behavior and let them know they can be forgiven. And it is that kind of forgiveness that can also stimulate the person to want to change-- so that it comes from within, not without. It is this kind of love, mercy, and grace, that has kept my own family together at times, and given hope to people who felt they were hopeless.
Thanks for the beminder.
However, I don't believe you can legislate when and how and if ever that can occur. And I don't "love" the unrepentant offenders from TWI in the same way that I "love" my family or friends. If I so choose, I can forgive them. That may have benefits to me in letting go of something, if I haven't let go of it already. But I do believe you can hold a person accountable for his wrongdoing while not holding on to bitterness.
Nope cat, I never did accuse geek ...I have repeatedly attempted to explain your misinterpretation of what I wrote and have had to put up with your ever mounting tirade...your refusal at an attempt to understand.
I was genuinly excited to see you around here again....like an old well loved friend returning for a visit.....s`why I attempted to overlook your earlier back handed comments..... I don`t know why you have so little regard for folks that you otherwise used to like,....my question to you was genuine as well....the only reason I asked about the off shoot is because I know a couple of other posters who after fellowshipping with this group for a year, who became supercilious and arrogant...no, not all....but some develope a real dislike for us.....kind of hurts my feelings, to have folks suddenly have no use for nor respect for me...I have to tell you though, it also raises alarm bells....please consider.
Geek came accross as genuinely kind, and caring...thus my willingness to consider his pov ...but in order for me to accept what he propounded ....I honestly needed to have a question answered....( Geek even SAID it was a good question)...the days are passed when I accept someones suggestions blindly without discussing my misgivings are over....he has never acted like our need for answeres bothered him...why are you in such a lather?
Unfortunatly Geeks busy life has intervened, ..nooooo problem, we have all enjoyed continuing to carry on a very interesting conversation without his imput....and you have to come back, what.. ten pages later and start throwing sand again?
Rascal, please go back and read the front of this thread. Your initial post set an argumentative tone, before even one person got rankled.
I was excited to have the time to come back here after a long hiatus. However, I noticed things about this site were very different than the last time I was here. And there was a noticeable difference in you, whether you want to admit it or not. You came swinging right out of the box at anything that moved as soon as forgiveness was mentioned.
But I'm not going to beat this dead horse with you again. If you don't want to see it, I can't make you. It has to come from you.
I think that is your perception cat... I have read the original posts and tried to explain repeatedly, an explanation which you chose to ignore....
If I DID chose to swing...you`d know it.
I have changed, yeah....which is why I am now able to ask genuine questions, questions never answered in twi... seek answeres, instead of cowtowing and slobbery toe kissing, mortally afraid of straying from twi doctrine or offending some great spiritual leader.... thus being viewed as unspiritual....(I may be mistaken but I view this as possible growth)
I am FREE to ask questions when I have them now ...it is exhilerating....if geek choses not to answere, no problem.....but hear this... I AM tired of having to answere to you for having asked HIM a question, which incidently was in ANSWERE to the question he research Geek asked in the FIRST darn place....ie *Are you ready?* my answere?... no and won`t be untill I know the answere to THIS question.....
...your perception of my post aside...he has generously offered to consider and provide an answere ...great....the question was genuine
This is a discussion...not attack.
It is really a shame that we cannot seem to get on the same page, I truly hate to argue.
Maybe it is time to declare peace among the warring factions here. Is it so hard for us to put bury our battleaxes? How many more heads have to be lopped off before the bloodlust ends? Is it such an anathema to allow our spears be formed into pruning hooks and our swords be beaten into plowshares? How many more hearts need to burst being run through with such blind anger and acrymony? How many more friendships need to be poisoned with these bitter waters?
What is forgiveness anyway? Who benefits from it? Does forgiveness excuse or mitigate the perpetrator of the injustices suffered by the wronged party? Does forgiving obligate the wronged party to restore the perpetrator to his or her previous status of trust or friendship in the absence of contrition?
Forgiveness is just simply letting go of the hot coals of hate that seeks to burn us out leaving us a charred heap of ashes. Just let go! I know it's not as easy as hanging on to your hurt and sitting in your ash heap but personal growth never is easy. Believe me, I am struggling with some major forgiveness issues of my own right now and yes the rage does flare up on occasions. Growth requires that we stretch ourselves beyond our comfort zones in order to fulfill our destiny, potential or calling if you prefer.
It is impossible to receive what is next for you until you first let go of your anger and hurt. Perhaps the best way of accomplishing this is to embrace your anger, feel it, notice the sensations that arise in your body, the images play themselves out in your mind and then...let them go. Imagine the river of life carrying them off away from you into eternity where God can sort things out and restore you to healing and freedom to move ahead with your life. Doesn't this sound better than the ash heap alternative?
Forgiveness absolutely does NOT require the wronged to restore the perpetrator to the former status of trust. Trust is like Humpty Dumpty. Once it has been smashed it is difficult if not impossible to restore. It's the perpetrators job to pick up the pieces if there is to be any restoration of trust. In the absence of such contrition and restoration the wronged is not obligated to extend trust to the perpetrator. You are simply allowing yourself to be free from bitterness which ultimately benefits you.
Some of the cases of TWI abuse against some of the posters on this thread are so horrific that they probably couldn't be made right or restored even if the perpetrators were to lick the ground on which the abused walked. But to hold on to the bitterness makes the wounds that they inflicted permanent.
Wow, it looks like this topic has struck a lot of nerves. Maybe the time actually was right to broach the topic... Please indulge me a moment as I tell you about Ernie:
Ernie had a lot of problems. He was an outcast and lived on the street and had to forage for food to survive, and was a pestilence to his neighborhood. He was sick, his hair was matted and flea bitten. People hated him and had actually shot him twice. His outlook on life had deteriorated into survival mode. He didn’t care what he had to do to survive. But deep inside Ernie was a heart of gold that no one had ever seen.
Ernie was a cat. He was kind of special because he was a polydactyl, a Hemmingway cat with eight toes on each paw. He lived near Catcup’s parents’ house and survived on handouts in the neighborhood. Catcup rescued him and intended to help him find a real home.
Capturing Ernie wasn’t difficult because he was so tired and hungry and sick. All that was needed was a can of food in a carrier, and then he was a captive. But then the problems started. Ernie was completely feral and detested being groomed and attended to by the vet. We finally brought him back to our house and he was so traumatized that he scratched everything up and whizzed over everything in his isolation room ruining the carpet and woodwork. He eventually bit and scratched Catcup terribly when she took him outside for fresh air and he ran away. Catcup had to let him go. She was heartbroken, because she had taken pity on this poor stray cat and had failed in her attempt to help him. Ernie vanished into the bushes, giving her an evil backward glance. We cleaned up the room and said, we’ll never try that again!
A few days later we had a visitor at our door. It was Ernie and believe it or not he wanted to come back into the house. We had to make a decision. Were we going to allow him back into the house after all the damage he had done and the injuries he caused or turn him back out onto the street again? We decided to forgive him and in the next few weeks we found out how we could live together. Ernie did not want to be touched or worse yet, picked up. We had to let him go back outside when he wanted to go, and we coaxed him to come back inside at night.
It took a few months, but Ernie finally did change. We basically loved him into loving us back and ultimately he let us pick him up and hold him. His bad attitude vanished and he became Catcup’s favorite cat. We took him back to the vet and found out that one of the reasons for his bad attitude was the chronic pain he was in with 5 abscessed teeth and two beebees still lodged in him. The teeth were removed, and his attitude became even more pleasant. He actually became affectionate, which is near impossible to expect out of a feral. (Most animal control officers put feral cats like him to sleep.)
The moral of this story is that you never know what kind of pain another person may be in who is causing you problems. Forgiveness was the catalyst that made the road to Ernie’s transformation possible. Had there been none, no one would have ever seen Ernie’s heart of gold. He would have died within weeks, matted and parasite ridden in the gutter. As it was, we uncovered a beautiful cameo polydactyl cat with handsome apple-green eyes rimmed in black, who loved us fiercely and he lived with us for double his streetlife expectancy, giving us great pleasure.
On the other hand, do you remember when Bill Clinton and his entourage were condemning conservative Christians for not forgiving Clinton when he demanded it? That is “Clintonesque†-- the offender demanding forgiveness when they aren’t really sorry for what they have done. Clinton said he did it simply because he could—much like LCM’s explanation for his own behavior.
Forgiveness is a difficult thing to do but there can be benefits to both the forgiver and the offender. However these benefits can only be fully experienced under the right conditions. Sure the offender gets off the hook by the forgiver. In that particular case, that’s an immediate benefit to them. But if the offender is truly sorry for what they did, then they may be able to receive the ultimate benefit which is to heal the behavior in themselves that caused the problem in the first place.
The forgiver also gets a benefit which can release some or all of their pain. But sometimes, people can carry the impact the evil offense caused them and dwell upon it in such a negative way that they continue to hurt themselves even more. This manifests itself in hair-trigger emotions, bitterness, withdrawal, and lashing out at others, among other things.
There is some kind of balance involved. Forgiveness is not automatic. There may be appropriate times to withhold it. But life must go on, too. Bitterness shouldn’t be permanent, else we continue evil’s cueball effect against others and especially upon ourselves. The nature of evil is to continue to devour. Only good can overcome it.
So who has to make the first step if good is to overcome evil?
That is for each person to answer between themselves and God.
There may be many other factors involved such as the nature of the injury, the severity of the offence, the former relationship of the parties involved, if the offender is repentant or not, if the offender is still alive, etc. These all affect the scenario. But regardless, the ultimate benefit to the forgiver can be healing and possibly even be a return to normal life as if the incident never happened. Yes, there are further circumstances where there have been physical injuries, and even death. So in some instances, restoration for the injured party is impossible. But healing is still available so that the forgiver can stop the cueball effect in themselves by refusing to prolong the effects the offender caused.
So I ask, are you ready to forgive? I do not imply that if you don’t forgive that you should be condemned. As I said there are a lot of factors involved. Those things take time to work through, each situation and individual is different, and forgiveness can never be forced. It is a process between them and God as well as between the people involved. As clearly seen on this thread, some are ready to forgive, some are not. Some have forgiven and have seen benefits. Some may be ready to forgive and hopefully my simple question will catalyze the process so they can receive the healing benefits. That was my motivation, pure and simple.
I was wondering when this story of the feral cat was going to pop up. I remember it from WayDale...when I was being compared to the feral cat.
Have you ever considered that the cat had done nothing for which he needed forgiving? That it was your lack of understanding the root of the cat's behavior that needed forgiving?
holding a person accountable is what love really is to me.
the tiny face screaming with an ear infection all night long , forces me to be accountable for their health and trip to the doctor.
the old friend who asks a sensitive question that stings reminds me I owe this friendship an explanation and I want to be accountable to what I did or didnt for the love we share to continue.
an enemy changes his stance and seeks a new life without persecuting meI am accountable to Jesus Christ as my LOrd to forgive 70 times 7 as He asks me to.
forgivness is all about holding the other accountable and your own self accountable it is the only way love/ and true understanding can happen in life.
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Cowgirl
Sorry Catcup, but I think YOU'VE already attributed some of those characteristics of the almighty to yourselves. No one else needs to!
Cowgirl
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Cowgirl
By the way Catcup, you sure seem to have ample time on your hands right now !!
Cowgirl
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Catcup
Cowgirl you want to fight? Seems like it.
No where do I attribute myself omniscience nor omnipotence.
You on the otherhand, make yourself judge and jury.
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Catcup
As a matter of fact, I had a spare minute or two.
I am questioning the wisdom of spending them on you, though. Don't know what I ever did to you to draw such ire.
Don't care now, either. I never knew you then or now.
Going out for a nice relaxing dinner. Have fun boiling. I refuse to do it with you.
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Geek's original post;
"Hi folks,
I wonder what Jesus would say if he read our posts on Greasespot. That's an interesting question, isn't it?
We're a mixed lot: some oldster greasespotters who check out the forums once in a while, but have mostly moved past their prolific posting days, some regulars who still get something out of posting every day, many lurkers who come here to witness this menagerie, and some newbies who really need this forum to air their emotions and seek reinforcement and validation for their feelings and experiences. I come here once in a while to test the wind. I'd like to float this idea to see what you all think. Maybe, for some it will be the appropriate time to consider this, for others not, I know this, so if you are not ready for this yet, OK, maybe later...
One of the loftiest, yet most essential concepts introduced by Jesus Christ, and one of the most foundational tenents of first-century Christianity is forgiveness. It undeniably is one of the most difficult teachings of Jesus to attain, but also is undeniably one of the most healing in its effects. We all have been hurt by lcm and his henchmen, or by other people connected with twi. Some of the offenders are no longer affiliated with twi, some are dead, others are still sitting pretty in that outfit. Meanwhile we are trying to get on with our lives after suffering various levels of abuse by the hands of these aforementioned twi representatives. My question to you is are you ready to try some forgiveness?
What you say, shall I let them off the hook? They are impenitent still so they do not deserve it! But consider who gets the most benefits from forgiveness. Does the forgiver or the offender benefit the most? From what I have witnessed on Greasespot, there are many of us who still harbor negative feelings for those who abused us. These negative feelings range from minor irritation all the way to vehement revenge. But consider this before you direct a salvo my way... Oftentimes the offender is oblivious, yet we steam, so who is affected more? We are. And undoubtedly these negaitve felings hurt us far more than those they are directed against.
So I ask, is anyone ready for some forgiveness? Is it not true that Job was not healed until he could bring himself to pray for his friends? Is it not true that Jesus told us to pray for our enemies and to love them. Was Jesus nuts, or did he have our best interests in mind? Consider what forgiveness may bring to you. Does anyone want to talk about this?"
Clearly Geek is pointing his finger at everyone and singled out specificaly who to forgive.
Yet he will not answer any questions, not even his own.
"Does anyone want to talk about this?"
Geek doesn't want to talk. Maybe he just enjoys the fights, I don't know. He won't answer anyone's questions apparently.
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DaddyHoundog
why is it that there is this suppossition that forgiveness is the only proccess for katharsis. It is a narrow fundamentalist christian idea that there are no other options.
I find that limiting and self-righteous as if it all hangs on the forgiver....
What is brought to me ( to make passive the active verb in Geeks sentence) what....? I really dont think its the only thing to think about, or the only process to go through...
I also dont think CFFM or any ministry - certianly not Way or Way offshoots have a corner on the so called christian psychology that is the pretense for the purpose of forgiveness.
Lianne Pierce
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excathedra
sorry for the misunderstanding catcup. i was talking about nick c------ who i thought was an ordained minister in CFF. he was the one who told dottie she couldn't wipe her butt without wierwille.... and some other nice things
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excathedra
and you're right, i'm sorry, it has nothing to do with geek and you, except that geek and he are ministers in the same church so i think of them as likeminded somewhat
and i can't help feeling that the CFF group seems to be wierwillites of this our day and time. so when i hear the forgiveness rap from geek, i tend to put the two together in my mind
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rascal
Cat, you have sure become rude...Why? What has hardened you? Does it have something to do with the offshoot that you are part of?
My questions were genuine, believe it or not...and directed at geek....you keep turning this into something it never was...an attack on Geek...it has nothing to do with you.
As for your question..the people Geek mentioned were lcm, his henchmen and others involved in twi....
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Mod Kirk
Catcup & Excathedra, please check private topics
Thanks
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Catcup
Ex, if you are talking about the same Nik that Dot Matrix was talking to me about, he is NOT in my "group," he is with TWI.
As for a Nick C---, I do not personally know a Nick C---, but if he in fact said what you say he did, this person is insensitive, clueless, and abusive REGARDLESS OF WHO HE FELLOWSHIPS WITH, and had no right to say such a hurtful FALSE thing to Dot.
And it has nothing to do with me or Geek.
As for CFF, the structure is much different than TWI. It is my understanding that not only individual people, small home fellowships, or groups of whole fellowships, but also other whole ministries "affiliate" with CFF. That means we fellowship together, while we do not exercise control over each other doctrinally or otherwise. Doctrinally we can "agree to disagree" on a variety of issues. That allows us to simply fellowship with people who agree on their love for our Lord Jesus Christ.
It is also my understanding that CFF does not exercise the kind of doctrinal and personal control over people who choose to be affiliated with them that TWI exercises over its possessions.
It is also my understanding from John Shroyer that abusive behavior will not be tolerated from either leadership or people in the fellowship.
My advice for anyone with first hand knowledge of such behavior would be to take it straight to him. I say that because I don't have first hand knowlege of it, so if I did tried to handle it, it would be hearsay. So, the person who was offended might want to pursue it with him.
I have found personally, Shroyer to be very approachable and not offended to be asked hard questions about such things. Before I decided to attend a single meeting, I had a straight, no holds barred conversation with the man and told him I would not put up with being involved in a ministry that allowed abuse of any kind.
Shroyer was not offended at my questions and I was not shy about asking. He assured me that the kinds of abuses I experienced in TWI would not be tolerated in CFF. He also made a public statement regarding not tolerating adultery in CFF.
I know for a fact Shroyer understands that Jon and I do not associate with anyone who feels that "you could not wipe your butt without Wierwille."
Jon and I formally consider such statements abusive.
Anybody who truly KNOWS us knows that.
Neither Geek NOR I would ever claim that a person is "nobody" without TWI or PFAL or Wierwille.
Nor is it the position of anyone we want to be associated with.
"Cat, you have sure become rude...Why? What has hardened you??
Rascal, I was about to say the same thing to you. NO ONE is telling you or anyone else to forgive anyone. You have jumped to conclusions. I am not the one being rude here, dear. I have been starkly surprised at the personal attacks, insinuations, and outright lies that are posted on this thread, and I am surprised at YOUR attitude.
I have said that I do not believe I can tell anyone who or when or if or what they should forgive. I have said that is up to the person and between them and God. And it is not for me to judge a person who decides not to forgive someone.
I've also stated that I believe it is wrong for anyone to demand a person who has been horribly wronged to forgive their offender.
And as a matter of fact, that IS Geek's position as well.
Asking a simple question here, showed how some folks can jump to conclusions, and misread another's intent. And, even when a position is clarified, those who just want to fight stay on it like a dog on a bone.
He simply asked if anyone was ready to forgive. He is not TELLING you to, and there is a huge difference.
"LCM and his henchmen" can be anyone from a BOT member down to your local TC or even someone else in your fellowship, if they carried out his orders.
Some people have worked things out between them and the other person. Those people were ready at that point. Others of us are not ready. For a multitude of damn good reasons, I might add.
For instance, as I said before, I forgave Don Wierwille, former BOT member, for what he did to me, because he apologized specifically and privately to me. However, he may not have apologized to YOU if he offended YOU.
I can forgive him for what he did to me, but I have no authority to let him off the hook for what he did to YOU, and I DON'T.
Now, I ask, how is that offensive to you?
I have forgiven Don Wierwille, but I have NOT forgiven LCM, LP, MW, and several others who have NOT apologized to me. If they did, I might consider what they said. If afterwards I decided to forgive them, I would be letting them off the hook ONLY for what they did to me.
I would not, nor do I have the authority, to let them off the hook for what they did to YOU.
Now, how is that so offensive to you?
How did it become so offensive to ask if anyone was ready to forgive them? At the same time Geek is asking you the question, he is asking me as well.
I'm not offended to say I was ready to forgive Don Wierwille, but NOT ready to forgive the rest of them, and won't even consider it until they ask.
How that question is so offensive, I have no idea. My family was devastated as much or even more in some cases than the next person. I am not offended if someone asks me if I am ready to forgive. I'm not offended at the question, and I am not embarassed at the answer. Nor do I feel like I am being accused of being wrong because I choose NOT to let LCM and others off the hook.
I don't get it why some folks still feel like they are being told by us to forgive, or are being condemned for not being forgiving, when asked that question, -- Unless they are just plain shell-shocked from the constant barrage leveled against them while they were in TWI, and feel like that is what we are doing. Now, that, I can understand.
If that is the case, please know again, that is not our intent. We have no condemnation for anyone regarding whom they do or do not forgive regarding your experience in TWI.
I have clarified our intent several times-- it is not to condemn, but to simply ask.
Now if some still choose to pick and twist at words and read into them, that is their choice.
I have plainly told you that you are not condemned by us for what happened to you or what another person did to you, or for your choice to forgive or not to forgive. We believe that is an issue that lies squarely between the person and God.
Nor are WE responsible for what another person did to you.
I can admire a person for actually forgiving someone who has grievously wronged them. That has to come from some incredible strength in that individual, and compassion, which I believe is always admirable.
What is wrong with admiring that in a person?
At the same time I do NOT condemn another person who has been so heinously gutstripped that they cannot forgive an unrepentant abuser.
Nor do I believe they are obligated to.
As a matter of fact, I admire a person for NOT letting an unrepentant serial abuser like Martindale et al off the hook.
Again I ask, what is so offensive about that?
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Cherished Child
I just have to shake my head in disbelief at the way this thread has gone. From the very beginning, Geek's question seemed like a perfectly innocent and honest one. I DID NOT get the impression that he was "shaking his finger in anyone's face" or attempting to shame anyone into forgiving anyone. Likewise,I don't understand why Catcup has been so doggedly vilified, and insulted by people like Cowgirl (have the two ever even met?), when she has been VERY clear in her stance on the topic of forgiveness this entire time, and has never waivered. And it seems like a perfectly reasonable stance to take (one that, to me, has nothing to do with her having ever been Corp). So what's the deal? Is the mere prospect of forgiveness so onerous, that anyone even broaching it should be treated like an emmisary of the WayGB?
I don't know Catcup, and I don't know Geek. I've never fellowshiped with either one of them, nor with CFF. But they've been respected, outspoken, and intelligent critics of The Way International here on Greasespot (and before that, Waydale) for many years. So, why are they suddenly the targets of such ire, and yes---judgement, on this thread?
Now, my personal take on the topic of forgiveness--- As far as I can ascertain, forgiveness is NOT absolution. It is NOT a blank check to continue to injure or destroy. And it's CERTAINLY NOT a mandate to ever trust the forgiven party again. It is merely an psychological (and yes, even at times spiritual) tool that the offended may SOMETIMES find useful in setting themselves free to live without the continual torture that comes with hurt feelings, and heart-nawing bitterness.
Notice, I said, SOMETIMES...
Obviously, it's a deeply personal decision, one which a person literally cannot do, unless and until he/she sees a profit in doing so. And you can forgive with or without concern about what "God says about forgiveness". Plenty of people who don't even believe in God have chosen to extend forgiveness at some point or another. They chose to do so because they desired to turn their back on the pain and walk away. That's really all that forgiveness is about. Turning your back on the pain and emotionally WALKING AWAY. It's not easy, and in many cases, it's not even possible. It's not about what's "right" or "wrong". It's about what's best for the person making the decision to do so---OR NOT!
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Catcup
Whew. Thanks, Cherished Child-- I was beginning to feel like I was suddenly not speaking english anymore.
And I agree that forgiveness is not a blank check for the offender to continue the same hurtful behavior. In my opinion, that's how you know if someone is truly sorry-- it involves a change of behavior.
I believe there are two kinds of sorry: One is the person is sorry they are suffering the consequences. The other is, the offender is sorry for their behavior, which includes action on the part of the offender to change it.
Only one is worthy of forgiveness, IMO.
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mj412
People are not always ready to change to suit me and make me happy.
Love isnt selfish that demands another toe the line of behaviour or life style that pleases another.
that is abuse really. to demand another change is not love at all it is a dictator who wants to control .
If you love somone do they need to abide by your rules and regullations only? and if they can not or do not will you never forgive them ? Is that a threat to the relationship that manipulates the situation to go only in the manner you think is right or wrong or eles you can no longer care or love them?
IM lucky I have lived in a bigger love from many. I have been loved and forgivness and it is the only thing that allows the same to another .
sure i have relationships I need to set boundaries with , No I can not give you all my money right now and you can get angry at that fact it is ok I love you will you forgive me for not being able to meet your needs?
I feel hurt I can not stay at your home while Im in town I had looked forward to spending time with you as a friend and made plans, Im sory your child is sick and I must make other arrangements now.
boundaries and forgivness is needed in every relationship.
conseguences are a part of decisions catcup and we all make decsions and often without regard to the feelings or needs of another. If I do not want to continue in the relationship I can end the relationship and forgive them for the pain or misunderstanding , or the only other choice to to keep working on the relationship and forgive , the ball is always in the indivdual doing the forgivness court.
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shazdancer
Dear Catcup,
You asked, "How did it become so offensive to ask if anyone was ready to forgive them?"
I think because implied in saying, "are you ready" is the thought that you SHOULD be ready, sooner or later. And it is the "should" that gives me pause. Apparently, I am not the only one. Perhaps if Geek had said, "I decided to forgive, and here's why" or "should we forgive, how do you feel about it" (he says something like that later on in the post), it would have gone over better.
Cat, you explained your position on forgiveness well. (And I agree with what you've said on the topic.) We never did hear it from Geek, who started the thread. If you both have the same take on forgiveness, it would be nice to hear that from Geek, who started the thread and said he would respond. I can understand getting unexpectedly too busy or sick to respond, but threads have a way of going on without their originators, fer sure! It's just the nature of the thing.
You said, "I don't get it why some folks still feel like they are being told by us to forgive, or are being condemned for not being forgiving, when asked that question, -- Unless they are just plain shell-shocked from the constant barrage leveled against them while they were in TWI, and feel like that is what we are doing. Now, that, I can understand." That may explain it for some of us. I would think that those who suffered through a lot of the LCM years would not want anyone even hinting that they SHOULD be doing something that has spiritual overtones. (As Geek put it, "One of the loftiest, yet most essential concepts introduced by Jesus Christ, and one of the most foundational tenents of first-century Christianity is forgiveness," etc.)
As for me, Wierwille owed me an apology, and I asked for it, never got it. He is dead, it is over. I can apply Geek's question to my ex, however, who still stands with TWI. No repentance on his part, no forgiveness from me. And yes, his sins against me were cold and calculated, and would remind you of the mindset of LCM.
Perhaps we are being overly picky about Geek's words. If so, I am sure he can clarify, and re-state where he is coming from on this subject.
However, I do appreciate YOUR opinion on the topic of forgiveness, Catcup.
Regards,
Shaz
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Catcup
MJ412
Thanks.
I will clarify this: I do believe that there are people who are so self-centered that when they screw up, they are only sorry for the trouble it causes themselves. And there are those who get past that to see that they have hurt an innocent person, and are sorry for what they caused them.
But you are right, it can very well be seen as controlling to say --"I won't forgive you until..."
I am reminded of what my husband tells me all the time: "It's not 'I love you if, or I love you when, or I love you until'-- it's 'I love you.' period." Unconditional love is what God shares with us, and it is what my husband and I strive to give each other. And it is what people seem they could be extending when they forgive someone who seems unforgivable.
And I know that it is that kind of love that can pull someone out of bad behavior and let them know they can be forgiven. And it is that kind of forgiveness that can also stimulate the person to want to change-- so that it comes from within, not without. It is this kind of love, mercy, and grace, that has kept my own family together at times, and given hope to people who felt they were hopeless.
Thanks for the beminder.
However, I don't believe you can legislate when and how and if ever that can occur. And I don't "love" the unrepentant offenders from TWI in the same way that I "love" my family or friends. If I so choose, I can forgive them. That may have benefits to me in letting go of something, if I haven't let go of it already. But I do believe you can hold a person accountable for his wrongdoing while not holding on to bitterness.
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rascal
Nope cat, I never did accuse geek ...I have repeatedly attempted to explain your misinterpretation of what I wrote and have had to put up with your ever mounting tirade...your refusal at an attempt to understand.
I was genuinly excited to see you around here again....like an old well loved friend returning for a visit.....s`why I attempted to overlook your earlier back handed comments..... I don`t know why you have so little regard for folks that you otherwise used to like,....my question to you was genuine as well....the only reason I asked about the off shoot is because I know a couple of other posters who after fellowshipping with this group for a year, who became supercilious and arrogant...no, not all....but some develope a real dislike for us.....kind of hurts my feelings, to have folks suddenly have no use for nor respect for me...I have to tell you though, it also raises alarm bells....please consider.
Geek came accross as genuinely kind, and caring...thus my willingness to consider his pov ...but in order for me to accept what he propounded ....I honestly needed to have a question answered....( Geek even SAID it was a good question)...the days are passed when I accept someones suggestions blindly without discussing my misgivings are over....he has never acted like our need for answeres bothered him...why are you in such a lather?
Unfortunatly Geeks busy life has intervened, ..nooooo problem, we have all enjoyed continuing to carry on a very interesting conversation without his imput....and you have to come back, what.. ten pages later and start throwing sand again?
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Catcup
Rascal, please go back and read the front of this thread. Your initial post set an argumentative tone, before even one person got rankled.
I was excited to have the time to come back here after a long hiatus. However, I noticed things about this site were very different than the last time I was here. And there was a noticeable difference in you, whether you want to admit it or not. You came swinging right out of the box at anything that moved as soon as forgiveness was mentioned.
But I'm not going to beat this dead horse with you again. If you don't want to see it, I can't make you. It has to come from you.
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rascal
Beating a dead horse? I hate that phrase....
I think that is your perception cat... I have read the original posts and tried to explain repeatedly, an explanation which you chose to ignore....
If I DID chose to swing...you`d know it.
I have changed, yeah....which is why I am now able to ask genuine questions, questions never answered in twi... seek answeres, instead of cowtowing and slobbery toe kissing, mortally afraid of straying from twi doctrine or offending some great spiritual leader.... thus being viewed as unspiritual....(I may be mistaken but I view this as possible growth)
I am FREE to ask questions when I have them now ...it is exhilerating....if geek choses not to answere, no problem.....but hear this... I AM tired of having to answere to you for having asked HIM a question, which incidently was in ANSWERE to the question he research Geek asked in the FIRST darn place....ie *Are you ready?* my answere?... no and won`t be untill I know the answere to THIS question.....
...your perception of my post aside...he has generously offered to consider and provide an answere ...great....the question was genuine
This is a discussion...not attack.
It is really a shame that we cannot seem to get on the same page, I truly hate to argue.
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oenophile
Maybe it is time to declare peace among the warring factions here. Is it so hard for us to put bury our battleaxes? How many more heads have to be lopped off before the bloodlust ends? Is it such an anathema to allow our spears be formed into pruning hooks and our swords be beaten into plowshares? How many more hearts need to burst being run through with such blind anger and acrymony? How many more friendships need to be poisoned with these bitter waters?
What is forgiveness anyway? Who benefits from it? Does forgiveness excuse or mitigate the perpetrator of the injustices suffered by the wronged party? Does forgiving obligate the wronged party to restore the perpetrator to his or her previous status of trust or friendship in the absence of contrition?
Forgiveness is just simply letting go of the hot coals of hate that seeks to burn us out leaving us a charred heap of ashes. Just let go! I know it's not as easy as hanging on to your hurt and sitting in your ash heap but personal growth never is easy. Believe me, I am struggling with some major forgiveness issues of my own right now and yes the rage does flare up on occasions. Growth requires that we stretch ourselves beyond our comfort zones in order to fulfill our destiny, potential or calling if you prefer.
It is impossible to receive what is next for you until you first let go of your anger and hurt. Perhaps the best way of accomplishing this is to embrace your anger, feel it, notice the sensations that arise in your body, the images play themselves out in your mind and then...let them go. Imagine the river of life carrying them off away from you into eternity where God can sort things out and restore you to healing and freedom to move ahead with your life. Doesn't this sound better than the ash heap alternative?
Forgiveness absolutely does NOT require the wronged to restore the perpetrator to the former status of trust. Trust is like Humpty Dumpty. Once it has been smashed it is difficult if not impossible to restore. It's the perpetrators job to pick up the pieces if there is to be any restoration of trust. In the absence of such contrition and restoration the wronged is not obligated to extend trust to the perpetrator. You are simply allowing yourself to be free from bitterness which ultimately benefits you.
Some of the cases of TWI abuse against some of the posters on this thread are so horrific that they probably couldn't be made right or restored even if the perpetrators were to lick the ground on which the abused walked. But to hold on to the bitterness makes the wounds that they inflicted permanent.
The choice is ours. The ash heap or our destiny.
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Research Geek
Hello again,
Wow, it looks like this topic has struck a lot of nerves. Maybe the time actually was right to broach the topic... Please indulge me a moment as I tell you about Ernie:
Ernie had a lot of problems. He was an outcast and lived on the street and had to forage for food to survive, and was a pestilence to his neighborhood. He was sick, his hair was matted and flea bitten. People hated him and had actually shot him twice. His outlook on life had deteriorated into survival mode. He didn’t care what he had to do to survive. But deep inside Ernie was a heart of gold that no one had ever seen.
Ernie was a cat. He was kind of special because he was a polydactyl, a Hemmingway cat with eight toes on each paw. He lived near Catcup’s parents’ house and survived on handouts in the neighborhood. Catcup rescued him and intended to help him find a real home.
Capturing Ernie wasn’t difficult because he was so tired and hungry and sick. All that was needed was a can of food in a carrier, and then he was a captive. But then the problems started. Ernie was completely feral and detested being groomed and attended to by the vet. We finally brought him back to our house and he was so traumatized that he scratched everything up and whizzed over everything in his isolation room ruining the carpet and woodwork. He eventually bit and scratched Catcup terribly when she took him outside for fresh air and he ran away. Catcup had to let him go. She was heartbroken, because she had taken pity on this poor stray cat and had failed in her attempt to help him. Ernie vanished into the bushes, giving her an evil backward glance. We cleaned up the room and said, we’ll never try that again!
A few days later we had a visitor at our door. It was Ernie and believe it or not he wanted to come back into the house. We had to make a decision. Were we going to allow him back into the house after all the damage he had done and the injuries he caused or turn him back out onto the street again? We decided to forgive him and in the next few weeks we found out how we could live together. Ernie did not want to be touched or worse yet, picked up. We had to let him go back outside when he wanted to go, and we coaxed him to come back inside at night.
It took a few months, but Ernie finally did change. We basically loved him into loving us back and ultimately he let us pick him up and hold him. His bad attitude vanished and he became Catcup’s favorite cat. We took him back to the vet and found out that one of the reasons for his bad attitude was the chronic pain he was in with 5 abscessed teeth and two beebees still lodged in him. The teeth were removed, and his attitude became even more pleasant. He actually became affectionate, which is near impossible to expect out of a feral. (Most animal control officers put feral cats like him to sleep.)
The moral of this story is that you never know what kind of pain another person may be in who is causing you problems. Forgiveness was the catalyst that made the road to Ernie’s transformation possible. Had there been none, no one would have ever seen Ernie’s heart of gold. He would have died within weeks, matted and parasite ridden in the gutter. As it was, we uncovered a beautiful cameo polydactyl cat with handsome apple-green eyes rimmed in black, who loved us fiercely and he lived with us for double his streetlife expectancy, giving us great pleasure.
On the other hand, do you remember when Bill Clinton and his entourage were condemning conservative Christians for not forgiving Clinton when he demanded it? That is “Clintonesque†-- the offender demanding forgiveness when they aren’t really sorry for what they have done. Clinton said he did it simply because he could—much like LCM’s explanation for his own behavior.
Forgiveness is a difficult thing to do but there can be benefits to both the forgiver and the offender. However these benefits can only be fully experienced under the right conditions. Sure the offender gets off the hook by the forgiver. In that particular case, that’s an immediate benefit to them. But if the offender is truly sorry for what they did, then they may be able to receive the ultimate benefit which is to heal the behavior in themselves that caused the problem in the first place.
The forgiver also gets a benefit which can release some or all of their pain. But sometimes, people can carry the impact the evil offense caused them and dwell upon it in such a negative way that they continue to hurt themselves even more. This manifests itself in hair-trigger emotions, bitterness, withdrawal, and lashing out at others, among other things.
There is some kind of balance involved. Forgiveness is not automatic. There may be appropriate times to withhold it. But life must go on, too. Bitterness shouldn’t be permanent, else we continue evil’s cueball effect against others and especially upon ourselves. The nature of evil is to continue to devour. Only good can overcome it.
So who has to make the first step if good is to overcome evil?
That is for each person to answer between themselves and God.
There may be many other factors involved such as the nature of the injury, the severity of the offence, the former relationship of the parties involved, if the offender is repentant or not, if the offender is still alive, etc. These all affect the scenario. But regardless, the ultimate benefit to the forgiver can be healing and possibly even be a return to normal life as if the incident never happened. Yes, there are further circumstances where there have been physical injuries, and even death. So in some instances, restoration for the injured party is impossible. But healing is still available so that the forgiver can stop the cueball effect in themselves by refusing to prolong the effects the offender caused.
So I ask, are you ready to forgive? I do not imply that if you don’t forgive that you should be condemned. As I said there are a lot of factors involved. Those things take time to work through, each situation and individual is different, and forgiveness can never be forced. It is a process between them and God as well as between the people involved. As clearly seen on this thread, some are ready to forgive, some are not. Some have forgiven and have seen benefits. Some may be ready to forgive and hopefully my simple question will catalyze the process so they can receive the healing benefits. That was my motivation, pure and simple.
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CoolWaters
I was wondering when this story of the feral cat was going to pop up. I remember it from WayDale...when I was being compared to the feral cat.
Have you ever considered that the cat had done nothing for which he needed forgiving? That it was your lack of understanding the root of the cat's behavior that needed forgiving?
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CoolWaters
And I agree with the idea that forgiveness is not a mandatory cornerstone of all that is life.
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mj412
holding a person accountable is what love really is to me.
the tiny face screaming with an ear infection all night long , forces me to be accountable for their health and trip to the doctor.
the old friend who asks a sensitive question that stings reminds me I owe this friendship an explanation and I want to be accountable to what I did or didnt for the love we share to continue.
an enemy changes his stance and seeks a new life without persecuting meI am accountable to Jesus Christ as my LOrd to forgive 70 times 7 as He asks me to.
forgivness is all about holding the other accountable and your own self accountable it is the only way love/ and true understanding can happen in life.
I do not want to miss it.
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