with children or folks who have an on going relationship with investment that might work.
but I think the fact Jesus says to love instead of condem works better and he also says to forgive 70 times 7 or some such very large number.
clearly because we all sin who stands on the IM ok your not platform?
go ahead.
not me I try to stay as humble as possible aware every minute the adversary is out to kill steal and destroy all of Gods children and our Saviour Jesus Christ paid the price for my sins.
it is NOT my job to keep track of anothers sins, Jesus asks me to love.
Jesus Deleivers a person from sin not this shuning and shaming ideal you suggest.
If you can tell me why it is ok to ignore the direct instructions listed, then I will consider your view point, untill then it is nothing more than speculation.
none of what you posted makes it ok to dismiss the directions given.
not me I try to stay as humble as possible aware every minute the adversary is out to kill steal and destroy all of Gods children and our Saviour Jesus Christ paid the price for my sins.
it is NOT my job to keep track of anothers sins, Jesus asks me to love.
Uh, whistle in my other ear and tell me it's raining.
mj, based upon everything I've read of your posts here at GSC, your idea of forgiveness is to point out sins, laud them high and low, tell people what to do to measure up to your idea of how they should live, then hold a grudge and needle someone until one either fights with you or blows you off as totally whacko.
Ok...let me try to put this in different terms, as I understand luke....
I have children, they fight, they hurt one another at times....I don`t just require the kid that is getting the stew beat out of em to turn around n forgive the offending brother...
On the contrary, I require the offending child to be seperated from the rest of the family untill such time as he is willing to repent (change) and ask for forgiveness (or apologise)...
Then and only then is the offending child is welcomed back into the family activities....
Were I to allow the offending child to continue his behavior unchecked....he would probably grow into a viscious, unconscionable bully.....WHICH incidently, is what I feel is EXACTLY what happened in twi.
Yep, rascal...that's the only way to ensure a child does not grow up to be monstrous.
I notice you didn't say you beat the bejeezus out of the child until he/she "repented". Nor did you say that you denied the child any need or any love.
There's a big difference between not forgiving and denying basic human rights.
I'm sure your forgiveness is automatically in place...even if a child does not "repent".
I'm also sure that, regardless of that forgiveness, you stand your ground on what actions will be required of the child to learn accountability.
I'll never forget how twi would toss around the "think no evil" and "forgiveness is a requirement" crap whenever it's leader$hit went into overkill and destroyed lives. Can you imagine the difference if, instead, people were held accountable?
Exactly, and I hope that this demonstrates a little better what I was trying to explain about unconditional forgiveness as a detriment to the one forgiven.
I believe that it was the missaplication of forgiveness ...the *think no evil* doctrine that allowed twi to become such a harmfull place cw,
So far as I can see, what is being proposed directly contradicts scripture, and could be damaging to both parties.
I don`t enjoy being portrayed as a heartless hate mongering bitch because of my unwillingness to forgive or excuse twi leaders sin. I just feel that there is something fundamentally important at stake here.....something that we might not see due to our notions aquired in twi.
Please, just tell me why I am to dismiss the clear instructions in luke....before branding me as a big meanie.
I understand how you feel. I have respect for you and your opinions. I would like to bring a point up, and I want you to know that my intentions are not to convince you against your will.
I forgave twi. I know that I will NEVER receive an apology from them. For me, it was gettng rid of the rage and anger that came every time I thought of what those arseholes did to many pure-hearted people. That rage consumed me for months when I first left twi. Venting and getting it out on these forums helped a lot, but I still had contempt and hate for a lot of twi leaders.
I wanted to get to the point that these jerks didn't affect my emotions like they did. It was a real problem for me. Once I decided I forgave them, it really released a lot of "toxins" FROM ME. It was for me to be able to move on and remember again what God did for me.
I NEVER excused twi's actions. I will NEVER trust them again even if they go on national TV and announce that they hurt many and apologized and offered large sums of money to repay for the hurt they caused many (like that's ever gonna happen. -->)
Forgiveness is for the forgiver too. It helps us move on and not think so much about others' wrongs which cause us ill feelings. I was very skeptical of this when it was first brought up to me, but it really has lightened my load a lot since doing it.
putting a heavy emphasis on forgiving as something we should all get to eventually sounds like score card christianity to me. If I went back and tried to figure out everyone that I sshould have forgiven....lordy--that reminds me of counting my sins.
I don't think I need that.
Moving forward is not always about what you did with the people that contributed to the past, fact is the "offender(s)" will always be in your memory..(unless you take one of these new memory removal pills), but I dont think your brain requires every offender to be "forgiven" to be "healed" to handle life in the future positively and with a sense of optomism.
I have spent my entire morning reading this thread. Thanks to everyone who posted on it.
Interestingly enough, I can see each of your views. Scary isn’t it? :)--> All the posts have helped me formulate my own thoughts and convictions.
The thing I see is that offering forgiveness to another is a very personal thing for each of us.
Rascel, I wish I could address your Luke 17:3 question. But it says, “If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.†Maybe some of us never got the opportunity to rebuke those that sinned against us? I have a few of those in my life and it ....es me off. Coulda, woulda, shoulda at the time, huh? But it ain’t go,na happen. So, what now?
Forgiveness can be given for all the right reasons and still be dead wrong. One of the things I used to tell people when I was fighting my drinking problem is – “DON’T EVER tell me it is Ok. You were drunk. You didn’t mean it.†All that did was make me feel better. They just loved me. They just wanted me to feel better. The better I felt, the less I saw a need to change. Guess what? Sorry doesn’t make it better. Change does.
So, where does forgiveness fit for me? I can’t change what I have done. I can change me, so I will NEVER hurt someone in my drunken stupor again. I can change me, and not continue to do the things I have done, in TWI and out. I can forgive me for being an arrogant, self-righteous, prideful, and self-loathing person, hurting so many so often, and gain solace from the fact that I am working to change that. I have come a long way. But ask anyone that knows me. I have a long way to go :D-->
Others who have hurt me? Family? Strangers? TWI? There are many. Some times anger rises so powerfully within me at the thought of past injuries that I want to lash out and literally hurt them. It shocks me sometimes, the rage within. I have to remind myself that I have no control over another. I can’t change what happened. I have to accept that. My anger usually turns to sorrow for them. I do feel sorry for them. I agree with Catcup, “The offender carries the burden. He or she must live with what they have done. And in the case of a sociopath who has no conscience, don't fool yourself into thinking they suffer no consequences. They do. It manifests itself as deficits in many other areas of their lives.†I can’t imagine what must go through their minds in those few minutes just before they are fully awake or fully asleep, when they are the most vulnerable to their own thoughts. You know, before the defensives that protect us from ourselves are fully in place.
Did they mean to hurt me? I don’t really care if they did. It wouldn’t matter one way or another. I am just tired of feeling the pain over and over again when I remember. I am tired of the anger and who I have become because of it.
Thanks for all your posts. It has been awhile since I have considered this subject and it is worthy of consideration.
Rascal, take it from some one who lurks and seldom posts, you are not coming off as a heartless hate mongering bitch. Not by a long shot. You obviously are dealing with your past and your beliefs, just like the rest of us. I find your posts thought provoking and you have helped me pull my thoughts together. I just love it when posts do that for me.
To forgive or not to forgive? That is only for you to decide, in my own life, in my own time. The same is true for each of us.
Please, just tell me why I am to dismiss the clear instructions in luke....before branding me as a big meanie.
You're not a big meanie, Rascal, though I think you are making a logical fallacy in your understanding of Luke 17:3,4. "If A then B" does NOT imply "If not A then not B." "If he repent, forgive him" does not imply "If he repents not, forgive him not." The only commandment, as it were, is that if he repents, you MUST forgive him.
Note that Mark 11:25,26 state that Jesus's followers were to forgive IF THEY HAD OUGHT (SOMETHING)AGAINST ANY. In fact, jesus told them that if they did not forgive, neither would God forgive them! It's a little better in the Grace Administration, where we are told to forgive BECAUSE we've been forgiven (Eph. 4:32).
As has been pointed out by others, it does the forgiver good to forgive. This is NOT absolution. It's not denying that wrong was done. It doesn't mean you have to be buddies with those that have hurt you. It does mean that you're bigger than the pain.
Wow. I kinda thought this would happen. Personally, I think the forgiveness thing benefits the one doing the forgiving, not the one being forgiven (although there may be benefits to them, also).
I don't want to invite anyone from The Way back into my life. I don't want anything to do with them. However, I choose to not carry around in my mind a bunch of hatrid and bad vibes. It affects me physically as well as everything around me.
It feels so good to put it down and get rid of it. It's freedom.
I'm not neglecting you all. I just had two long work days in a row and today looks to be another one.
As I said in my introduction I occasionally come here to test the wind. It looks like it has been pretty windy lately!
So far we have seen before our eyes different positions on forgiveness. As to my first question, Are you ready to try some forgiveness, someone said that it implied that there will be a time that they are ready and then the next step that ultimately we should forgive. I hadn't considered that the question would insinuate that. But that is an interesting train of thought.
I did not intend for the thread to turn into a squabble. I wanted to pose the main question and perhaps everyone's responses would help those who are about ready to do it to take that step and get the benefits that come with it.
There are a lot of points that have been brought up so far and honestly, I have not had enough time so far to respond. If my work schedule loostens up a bit, I hope to be able to do that. Please forgive me for launching this discussion and not having enough time to moderate it.
Yo geek been busy to. Glad I can drop in your concerns.... whoops yawn hmmm you are so self righteous ... yawn a bore you are to dodge your own thread gsc a blow off your time to spend with those that will come to your fellowship... hmmm your yawns and i suppose the wind is more than your tests can conceive~~~ you are really the wind your tests
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Rascal
with children or folks who have an on going relationship with investment that might work.
but I think the fact Jesus says to love instead of condem works better and he also says to forgive 70 times 7 or some such very large number.
clearly because we all sin who stands on the IM ok your not platform?
go ahead.
not me I try to stay as humble as possible aware every minute the adversary is out to kill steal and destroy all of Gods children and our Saviour Jesus Christ paid the price for my sins.
it is NOT my job to keep track of anothers sins, Jesus asks me to love.
Jesus Deleivers a person from sin not this shuning and shaming ideal you suggest.
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rascal
Ummm mj, how does that address Luke?
If you can tell me why it is ok to ignore the direct instructions listed, then I will consider your view point, untill then it is nothing more than speculation.
none of what you posted makes it ok to dismiss the directions given.
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CoolWaters
Uh, whistle in my other ear and tell me it's raining.
mj, based upon everything I've read of your posts here at GSC, your idea of forgiveness is to point out sins, laud them high and low, tell people what to do to measure up to your idea of how they should live, then hold a grudge and needle someone until one either fights with you or blows you off as totally whacko.
Nice try.
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TheEvan
Wow, I almost missed this jewel!
The bible says a great deal about forgiveness. And much of it differs. What you said is why...
Reminds me again how the Way imprint can be so strong. Religion -in-a-box
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rascal
Ok...let me try to put this in different terms, as I understand luke....
I have children, they fight, they hurt one another at times....I don`t just require the kid that is getting the stew beat out of em to turn around n forgive the offending brother...
On the contrary, I require the offending child to be seperated from the rest of the family untill such time as he is willing to repent (change) and ask for forgiveness (or apologise)...
Then and only then is the offending child is welcomed back into the family activities....
Were I to allow the offending child to continue his behavior unchecked....he would probably grow into a viscious, unconscionable bully.....WHICH incidently, is what I feel is EXACTLY what happened in twi.
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CoolWaters
Yep, rascal...that's the only way to ensure a child does not grow up to be monstrous.
I notice you didn't say you beat the bejeezus out of the child until he/she "repented". Nor did you say that you denied the child any need or any love.
There's a big difference between not forgiving and denying basic human rights.
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CoolWaters
Oh...and one more thing...
I'm sure your forgiveness is automatically in place...even if a child does not "repent".
I'm also sure that, regardless of that forgiveness, you stand your ground on what actions will be required of the child to learn accountability.
I'll never forget how twi would toss around the "think no evil" and "forgiveness is a requirement" crap whenever it's leader$hit went into overkill and destroyed lives. Can you imagine the difference if, instead, people were held accountable?
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rascal
Exactly, and I hope that this demonstrates a little better what I was trying to explain about unconditional forgiveness as a detriment to the one forgiven.
I believe that it was the missaplication of forgiveness ...the *think no evil* doctrine that allowed twi to become such a harmfull place cw,
So far as I can see, what is being proposed directly contradicts scripture, and could be damaging to both parties.
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rascal
I don`t enjoy being portrayed as a heartless hate mongering bitch because of my unwillingness to forgive or excuse twi leaders sin. I just feel that there is something fundamentally important at stake here.....something that we might not see due to our notions aquired in twi.
Please, just tell me why I am to dismiss the clear instructions in luke....before branding me as a big meanie.
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CoolWaters
{{{{{rascal}}}}}
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Nottawayfer
Rascal,
I understand how you feel. I have respect for you and your opinions. I would like to bring a point up, and I want you to know that my intentions are not to convince you against your will.
I forgave twi. I know that I will NEVER receive an apology from them. For me, it was gettng rid of the rage and anger that came every time I thought of what those arseholes did to many pure-hearted people. That rage consumed me for months when I first left twi. Venting and getting it out on these forums helped a lot, but I still had contempt and hate for a lot of twi leaders.
I wanted to get to the point that these jerks didn't affect my emotions like they did. It was a real problem for me. Once I decided I forgave them, it really released a lot of "toxins" FROM ME. It was for me to be able to move on and remember again what God did for me.
I NEVER excused twi's actions. I will NEVER trust them again even if they go on national TV and announce that they hurt many and apologized and offered large sums of money to repay for the hurt they caused many (like that's ever gonna happen.
-->)
Forgiveness is for the forgiver too. It helps us move on and not think so much about others' wrongs which cause us ill feelings. I was very skeptical of this when it was first brought up to me, but it really has lightened my load a lot since doing it.
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DaddyHoundog
putting a heavy emphasis on forgiving as something we should all get to eventually sounds like score card christianity to me. If I went back and tried to figure out everyone that I sshould have forgiven....lordy--that reminds me of counting my sins.
I don't think I need that.
Moving forward is not always about what you did with the people that contributed to the past, fact is the "offender(s)" will always be in your memory..(unless you take one of these new memory removal pills), but I dont think your brain requires every offender to be "forgiven" to be "healed" to handle life in the future positively and with a sense of optomism.
Lianne Pierce
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Shelly
I have spent my entire morning reading this thread. Thanks to everyone who posted on it.
Interestingly enough, I can see each of your views. Scary isn’t it?
:)--> All the posts have helped me formulate my own thoughts and convictions.
The thing I see is that offering forgiveness to another is a very personal thing for each of us.
Rascel, I wish I could address your Luke 17:3 question. But it says, “If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.†Maybe some of us never got the opportunity to rebuke those that sinned against us? I have a few of those in my life and it ....es me off. Coulda, woulda, shoulda at the time, huh? But it ain’t go,na happen. So, what now?
Forgiveness can be given for all the right reasons and still be dead wrong. One of the things I used to tell people when I was fighting my drinking problem is – “DON’T EVER tell me it is Ok. You were drunk. You didn’t mean it.†All that did was make me feel better. They just loved me. They just wanted me to feel better. The better I felt, the less I saw a need to change. Guess what? Sorry doesn’t make it better. Change does.
So, where does forgiveness fit for me? I can’t change what I have done. I can change me, so I will NEVER hurt someone in my drunken stupor again. I can change me, and not continue to do the things I have done, in TWI and out. I can forgive me for being an arrogant, self-righteous, prideful, and self-loathing person, hurting so many so often, and gain solace from the fact that I am working to change that. I have come a long way. But ask anyone that knows me. I have a long way to go
:D-->
Others who have hurt me? Family? Strangers? TWI? There are many. Some times anger rises so powerfully within me at the thought of past injuries that I want to lash out and literally hurt them. It shocks me sometimes, the rage within. I have to remind myself that I have no control over another. I can’t change what happened. I have to accept that. My anger usually turns to sorrow for them. I do feel sorry for them. I agree with Catcup, “The offender carries the burden. He or she must live with what they have done. And in the case of a sociopath who has no conscience, don't fool yourself into thinking they suffer no consequences. They do. It manifests itself as deficits in many other areas of their lives.†I can’t imagine what must go through their minds in those few minutes just before they are fully awake or fully asleep, when they are the most vulnerable to their own thoughts. You know, before the defensives that protect us from ourselves are fully in place.
Did they mean to hurt me? I don’t really care if they did. It wouldn’t matter one way or another. I am just tired of feeling the pain over and over again when I remember. I am tired of the anger and who I have become because of it.
Thanks for all your posts. It has been awhile since I have considered this subject and it is worthy of consideration.
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Shelly
Rascal, take it from some one who lurks and seldom posts, you are not coming off as a heartless hate mongering bitch. Not by a long shot. You obviously are dealing with your past and your beliefs, just like the rest of us. I find your posts thought provoking and you have helped me pull my thoughts together. I just love it when posts do that for me.
To forgive or not to forgive? That is only for you to decide, in my own life, in my own time. The same is true for each of us.
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GeorgeStGeorge
You're not a big meanie, Rascal, though I think you are making a logical fallacy in your understanding of Luke 17:3,4. "If A then B" does NOT imply "If not A then not B." "If he repent, forgive him" does not imply "If he repents not, forgive him not." The only commandment, as it were, is that if he repents, you MUST forgive him.
Note that Mark 11:25,26 state that Jesus's followers were to forgive IF THEY HAD OUGHT (SOMETHING)AGAINST ANY. In fact, jesus told them that if they did not forgive, neither would God forgive them! It's a little better in the Grace Administration, where we are told to forgive BECAUSE we've been forgiven (Eph. 4:32).
As has been pointed out by others, it does the forgiver good to forgive. This is NOT absolution. It's not denying that wrong was done. It doesn't mean you have to be buddies with those that have hurt you. It does mean that you're bigger than the pain.
God bless,
George
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
TheSongRemainsTheSame
Postaholic
posted October 29, 2004 15:59
Do you ReSearch Geek join right hand fellowship Reverend John Shroyer?
Do You?
Ignore if ya want , fess up the forgiveness you offer!!!
Just a Song and no condemnation~~~ i ain't burning you at the stake dude, the hunt TWI, and all that stuff that I am sure you know.
Do you & catcup stand for what?
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excathedra
if you're not angry at someone, do you need to forgive them ?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Catcup and Geek Have ya ever seen the flick Gladiator?~~~
That's where I stand
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Sunny1
Wow. I kinda thought this would happen. Personally, I think the forgiveness thing benefits the one doing the forgiving, not the one being forgiven (although there may be benefits to them, also).
I don't want to invite anyone from The Way back into my life. I don't want anything to do with them. However, I choose to not carry around in my mind a bunch of hatrid and bad vibes. It affects me physically as well as everything around me.
It feels so good to put it down and get rid of it. It's freedom.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
posted October 29, 2004 15:59
Do you ReSearch Geek join right hand fellowship Reverend John Shroyer?
Do You?
are you involved with Rev. John Shroyer?
Am I correct these thoughts of mine?
Come on RG~~~ what do you mean forgiveness... like in another twi ???
Come on I dare say please respond my questions your call of forgiveness
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
gawd damnit where is Mike when ya need the truth of illusion and mirrors???
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sky4it
excath:
your comment:
if you're not angry at someone, do you need to forgive them ?
no excath, that I think is the definition of forgiveness. Your too sweet excath really you are.
:D-->
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
RG & CC
Have you given up this thread you both composed together?
TheSongRemainsTheSame
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Research Geek
GS Regular
posted October 30, 2004 06:49
Hello again,
I'm not neglecting you all. I just had two long work days in a row and today looks to be another one.
As I said in my introduction I occasionally come here to test the wind. It looks like it has been pretty windy lately!
So far we have seen before our eyes different positions on forgiveness. As to my first question, Are you ready to try some forgiveness, someone said that it implied that there will be a time that they are ready and then the next step that ultimately we should forgive. I hadn't considered that the question would insinuate that. But that is an interesting train of thought.
I did not intend for the thread to turn into a squabble. I wanted to pose the main question and perhaps everyone's responses would help those who are about ready to do it to take that step and get the benefits that come with it.
There are a lot of points that have been brought up so far and honestly, I have not had enough time so far to respond. If my work schedule loostens up a bit, I hope to be able to do that. Please forgive me for launching this discussion and not having enough time to moderate it.
Yo geek been busy to. Glad I can drop in your concerns.... whoops yawn hmmm you are so self righteous ... yawn a bore you are to dodge your own thread gsc a blow off your time to spend with those that will come to your fellowship... hmmm your yawns and i suppose the wind is more than your tests can conceive~~~ you are really the wind your tests
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