what about just facing facts that some people are just jerks or jerks on steroids and no amount of "me" is gonna fix them, but I can move on in spite of or because of them -- either motivation does not seem to mandate forgiveness to me, just determination to avoid a repeat of jerks or jerks on steroids...
Is this so wierd...I have not heard anyone view it this way?
This is a form of forgiveness, isn't it? Without absolving them of guilt or responsibility, aren't you excusing their behavior as the natural outcome of their nature? Aren't you renouncing your anger and resentment? By "moving on," aren't you absolving them of further debt to you?
It could be done more effectively though. By "filing" their memories under the broader "jerk" category, you aren't really renouncing your resentment, only reframing (or "objectifying") it in a less personal, therefore less painful, context.
One could go further, in an even less judgmental way, "filing" them under "ignorant and hurtful people" (more definition, less condemnation), and release even more of his or her resentment, maybe most or all of it.
It feels good to call them jerks, but there's a cost. It reinforces our anger, rather than releasing it - which is the ultimate benefit of forgiveness. It has nothing really to do with the "ignorant and hurtful" persons - only with ourselves. (This even applies when we must try to forgive ourselves. Cool, huh?)
It feels good to call them jerks, but there's a cost. It reinforces our anger, rather than releasing it - which is the ultimate benefit of forgiveness.
As we used to say in the Assemblies, Hallelujah (however its spelled)
Yea I'm working on a 1/2 pint of whiskey tonight, my once every three week binge.
It wasn't actually thought about that in depthly...mostly because I don't use my time to think about it that much.
I do think I learned to avoid them better.
absolve them no....if anything I would support legislation and prosecution, but I am not currently involved in that ..only so many hours in the day and as we say with kids..."Pick your battles"..I think that also applies to things you decide to stay hurt about OR NOT or amny other things in life...
For me its about moving toward when I say moving on...I dont think about what I moved away from to much.
I'm not neglecting you all. I just had two long work days in a row and today looks to be another one.
As I said in my introduction I occasionally come here to test the wind. It looks like it has been pretty windy lately!
So far we have seen before our eyes different positions on forgiveness. As to my first question, Are you ready to try some forgiveness, someone said that it implied that there will be a time that they are ready and then the next step that ultimately we should forgive. I hadn't considered that the question would insinuate that. But that is an interesting train of thought.
I did not intend for the thread to turn into a squabble. I wanted to pose the main question and perhaps everyone's responses would help those who are about ready to do it to take that step and get the benefits that come with it.
There are a lot of points that have been brought up so far and honestly, I have not had enough time so far to respond. If my work schedule loostens up a bit, I hope to be able to do that. Please forgive me for launching this discussion and not having enough time to moderate it.
"This is a form of forgiveness, isn't it? Without absolving them of guilt or responsibility, aren't you excusing their behavior as the natural outcome of their nature? "
and
"It feels good to call them jerks, but there's a cost. It reinforces our anger, rather than releasing it - "
I'm not sure it's so much a form of forgiveness, perhaps it is simply a letting go of the hurt, anger, etc. I think there is a difference.
Additionally, categorizing them as "jerks" may not reinforce the anger but simply make it easier to dismiss them by objectifying them.
Either way, I think it is healthy to let go of the hurt and anger, though each individual has to vent, grieve, and heal in their own time. But letting go of the negative emtions doesn't necessarily have to be equated with forgiveness or with forgetting.
After all, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice . . . .
When and if they ever catch the punk. Forgiveness will not be a part of my thinking.
I will be glad when they sentence him to death.
Should this man really ask for forgiveness from me and my family from his heart I might just do it. And may even use my influence to change the sentence to life in prison.
Justice must be considered as well as forgiveness. In this lifetime.
Am I bitter towards this man? No. But justice must be served in this lifetime.
But God is just and true and truely the one that holds the power of forgiveness for each one of us. The sins shall be burned away and we will abide with him forever. His son paid the price for sin. Therefore it is paid in full. No Judgements from God in the next life, except that the suffering of loss will happen from the fire of God. What is left will continue.
I think sometimes we have trouble deciding to forgive someone because we have a misconception about just what forgiveness is (e.g., Satori's point about forgiveness vs. absolution).
There's another area of misunderstanding, it seems to me, and that's thinking we have to like someone if we've forgiven them. I don't think God requires that as part of the "forgiveness package."
I can't think of anyone in twi I haven't forgiven. Yet, of those who really hurt me or tried to intimidate me, I can't think of one I'd want to hang out with. I don't like them, but I don't wish horrible things upon them and I feel if they have consequences coming, it's not up to me to seek my own revenge or justice.
Why is it needed to forgive anyone if you do not wish to carry on with a relationship of some sort?
again it comes back to helping your own self feel better about the wrong done. to let the anger go away we need a place to put it and even if that means never talking or seeing them again .
forgivness is about self more than the other party sometimes.
a person who does you wrong has choices as well.
they can care and ask for forgivness and recognize the relationship needs to change to grow.
or they can pfff you and care less how you feel.
either way your stuck with anger so I submit the forgivness is all about the one forgiving not so much the other party involved (UNLESS it is for a relationship to nuture and growand both are willing to invest in that relationship)
forgivness is about changing how we feel about another and their deeds done or not done . I see forgivness as a work of self more than a work on relationship.. I mean I have relationship where in I get really angry this person doesnt realize the harm being done sometimes but he doesnt and I can not convince a person to change any more than the next , so I continue to forgive because I chose to have a relationship . it is all about me . If I was to stay angry and not forgive the relationship would suck.
I think that is how relationships work .
but if it just a person who I chose to no longer invest in I forgive so I do not have to be angry about what happened in my life. it doesnt involve the other person at all, yet I feel better knowing I am free of the emotion that is heavy and burdensome to carry around.
I also have a person who hurt my family badly . like yours.
I remeber when it was all fresh and I was more tormented than I am now.
I could not be comforted for the pain he brought my life.
I was a mess so angry and wanting vengence.
I never felt so alone and afraid.
One day my sister said to me...
I wish he would get hit by a truck. ran over just smashed and bleed on the highway.
when I heard that I felt relief for the first time in over a year.
I was that angry and hurt.
it felt good to hear another would suffer like he made us suffer.
in fact it kind of still does...
but I am not going to kill him .
but I understand why somone would murder somone now.
it is an overwhelming pain that ate me up.
time has gone by . he is still alive I suppose.
do I forgive him? to the point that I can function now in a manner that is better BUT if he ever was near me or my family I could probably kill him without a second thought.
some do not deserve forgivness and I do not think God requires us to do so. but in a sense I had to allow alot of the anger go and understand and let it go and forgive enough to live without allowing the anger to kill me. I did forgive as much as possible.
Thanks Geek, glad that this wasn`t just a drive by posting......
Feelings and theories aside....
Can anyone address Luke 17:3, where we are instructed to forgive if if IF ... our brother repents??
I think that we are missing something vital if repentance is left out of the equation.
I think that is a key to understanding why there was so much hurt done in twi...why it became so evil...folks weren`t taught to see the nececity of repentance or the need to change....forgiveness and grace were just assumed. They remained in their fleshly state.
S`far as I can see not a single person that Geek has mentioned, has met the requirement for being granted forgiveness.
What he is asking us to do would APPEAR to be in direct contradiction of what this particular scripture (luke 17:3) requires.
When this is addressed, I will then consider that forgiveness can be at times, nothing more than something that I chose to do with my brain to make me feel a little better about something I can do nothing about.
Operated as such, I think that it is detrimental to the one supposedly forgiven.
WhiteDove, thank you for your post on page 5. I thoroughly enjoyed your recap of the accomplishments of Charles Sheldon. I think there are too few people willing to put judgments and prejudices aside and really try to understand another’s situation. Talk about walking in their shoes. Very cool.
How do the following verses play into this forgiveness question?
quote:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? I Corinthians 5:1-6 KJV
******************
White Dove,
I hear you. Ours would be a very interesting discussion to continue...but I think the derailment would be a total wreck of this thread. :D-->
they were "in glory" about the one who had sinned Paul was saying that the fact they had glory over it was like the leaven. vs6 it was hurting everyone the fact they had glory about the one who sinned.
he would rather they mourned for the one who sinned.vs2
but they were puffed up about the fact he was taken away (the one who did the deed)vs3.
Paul said their attitude of self righteousness was like the Leaven and ruining everyones attitude towards one another. VS^
clearly states the problem was with the self righteous ones who where puffed up and gloried in another who had sinned.
he then addressed
what was done in VS he said he had judged him and in the name of Jesus christ DELIVERED HIM !!!!!!
the guy was healed of his sinned so in VS 5 THE SPIRIT may be SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus!!!
WOW ! Paul was teling the folks to stop getting to self righteous and puffed up about how that man had done wrong .
their Leaven was ruining everyones attitude.
Paul said he had judged him and he delivered from his sin and his spirit was saved!!!!1
your glorying is not good . he was telling them they were wrong about judging their brother in christ.
We fight not flesh and blood but spirits and principles etc....
MJ, if the one forgiven is not required to repent and change first....they remain in sin....if they are not accountable...are allowed to blow off their transgressions without ever understanding the need to repent in order to be forgiven...they remain in darkness... probably not even aware of it...ever puzzled as to why their formulas and principles learned in twi fail them.
However if forgiveness is withheld, they might see the necessity of change....maybe not, but the ball is in their court, according to Luke.
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satori001
It could be done more effectively though. By "filing" their memories under the broader "jerk" category, you aren't really renouncing your resentment, only reframing (or "objectifying") it in a less personal, therefore less painful, context.
One could go further, in an even less judgmental way, "filing" them under "ignorant and hurtful people" (more definition, less condemnation), and release even more of his or her resentment, maybe most or all of it.
It feels good to call them jerks, but there's a cost. It reinforces our anger, rather than releasing it - which is the ultimate benefit of forgiveness. It has nothing really to do with the "ignorant and hurtful" persons - only with ourselves. (This even applies when we must try to forgive ourselves. Cool, huh?)
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sky4it
satori:
There back. (see doctrinal section)
Ignorance is bliss. just do nothing buddy.
your comment:
It feels good to call them jerks, but there's a cost. It reinforces our anger, rather than releasing it - which is the ultimate benefit of forgiveness.
As we used to say in the Assemblies, Hallelujah (however its spelled)
Yea I'm working on a 1/2 pint of whiskey tonight, my once every three week binge.
I miss your color commentary.
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DaddyHoundog
well..jerks schmerks
It wasn't actually thought about that in depthly...mostly because I don't use my time to think about it that much.
I do think I learned to avoid them better.
absolve them no....if anything I would support legislation and prosecution, but I am not currently involved in that ..only so many hours in the day and as we say with kids..."Pick your battles"..I think that also applies to things you decide to stay hurt about OR NOT or amny other things in life...
For me its about moving toward when I say moving on...I dont think about what I moved away from to much.
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Research Geek
Hello again,
I'm not neglecting you all. I just had two long work days in a row and today looks to be another one.
As I said in my introduction I occasionally come here to test the wind. It looks like it has been pretty windy lately!
So far we have seen before our eyes different positions on forgiveness. As to my first question, Are you ready to try some forgiveness, someone said that it implied that there will be a time that they are ready and then the next step that ultimately we should forgive. I hadn't considered that the question would insinuate that. But that is an interesting train of thought.
I did not intend for the thread to turn into a squabble. I wanted to pose the main question and perhaps everyone's responses would help those who are about ready to do it to take that step and get the benefits that come with it.
There are a lot of points that have been brought up so far and honestly, I have not had enough time so far to respond. If my work schedule loostens up a bit, I hope to be able to do that. Please forgive me for launching this discussion and not having enough time to moderate it.
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TheInvisibleDan
No.
We're not ready to do that.
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Abigail
"This is a form of forgiveness, isn't it? Without absolving them of guilt or responsibility, aren't you excusing their behavior as the natural outcome of their nature? "
and
"It feels good to call them jerks, but there's a cost. It reinforces our anger, rather than releasing it - "
I'm not sure it's so much a form of forgiveness, perhaps it is simply a letting go of the hurt, anger, etc. I think there is a difference.
Additionally, categorizing them as "jerks" may not reinforce the anger but simply make it easier to dismiss them by objectifying them.
Either way, I think it is healthy to let go of the hurt and anger, though each individual has to vent, grieve, and heal in their own time. But letting go of the negative emtions doesn't necessarily have to be equated with forgiveness or with forgetting.
After all, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice . . . .
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Vertical Limit
You're too funny Danny
:D-->
Ok, forgiveness.
The man who murdered my brother.
When and if they ever catch the punk. Forgiveness will not be a part of my thinking.
I will be glad when they sentence him to death.
Should this man really ask for forgiveness from me and my family from his heart I might just do it. And may even use my influence to change the sentence to life in prison.
Justice must be considered as well as forgiveness. In this lifetime.
Am I bitter towards this man? No. But justice must be served in this lifetime.
But God is just and true and truely the one that holds the power of forgiveness for each one of us. The sins shall be burned away and we will abide with him forever. His son paid the price for sin. Therefore it is paid in full. No Judgements from God in the next life, except that the suffering of loss will happen from the fire of God. What is left will continue.
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excathedra
boy i'm really sorry about your brother, vertical
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Linda Z
I think sometimes we have trouble deciding to forgive someone because we have a misconception about just what forgiveness is (e.g., Satori's point about forgiveness vs. absolution).
There's another area of misunderstanding, it seems to me, and that's thinking we have to like someone if we've forgiven them. I don't think God requires that as part of the "forgiveness package."
I can't think of anyone in twi I haven't forgiven. Yet, of those who really hurt me or tried to intimidate me, I can't think of one I'd want to hang out with. I don't like them, but I don't wish horrible things upon them and I feel if they have consequences coming, it's not up to me to seek my own revenge or justice.
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Vertical Limit
Thanks excy, you have a heart of gold.
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mj412
Why is it needed to forgive anyone if you do not wish to carry on with a relationship of some sort?
again it comes back to helping your own self feel better about the wrong done. to let the anger go away we need a place to put it and even if that means never talking or seeing them again .
forgivness is about self more than the other party sometimes.
a person who does you wrong has choices as well.
they can care and ask for forgivness and recognize the relationship needs to change to grow.
or they can pfff you and care less how you feel.
either way your stuck with anger so I submit the forgivness is all about the one forgiving not so much the other party involved (UNLESS it is for a relationship to nuture and growand both are willing to invest in that relationship)
forgivness is about changing how we feel about another and their deeds done or not done . I see forgivness as a work of self more than a work on relationship.. I mean I have relationship where in I get really angry this person doesnt realize the harm being done sometimes but he doesnt and I can not convince a person to change any more than the next , so I continue to forgive because I chose to have a relationship . it is all about me . If I was to stay angry and not forgive the relationship would suck.
I think that is how relationships work .
but if it just a person who I chose to no longer invest in I forgive so I do not have to be angry about what happened in my life. it doesnt involve the other person at all, yet I feel better knowing I am free of the emotion that is heavy and burdensome to carry around.
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mj412
Vertical Limit
I also have a person who hurt my family badly . like yours.
I remeber when it was all fresh and I was more tormented than I am now.
I could not be comforted for the pain he brought my life.
I was a mess so angry and wanting vengence.
I never felt so alone and afraid.
One day my sister said to me...
I wish he would get hit by a truck. ran over just smashed and bleed on the highway.
when I heard that I felt relief for the first time in over a year.
I was that angry and hurt.
it felt good to hear another would suffer like he made us suffer.
in fact it kind of still does...
but I am not going to kill him .
but I understand why somone would murder somone now.
it is an overwhelming pain that ate me up.
time has gone by . he is still alive I suppose.
do I forgive him? to the point that I can function now in a manner that is better BUT if he ever was near me or my family I could probably kill him without a second thought.
some do not deserve forgivness and I do not think God requires us to do so. but in a sense I had to allow alot of the anger go and understand and let it go and forgive enough to live without allowing the anger to kill me. I did forgive as much as possible.
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rascal
Thanks Geek, glad that this wasn`t just a drive by posting......
Feelings and theories aside....
Can anyone address Luke 17:3, where we are instructed to forgive if if IF ... our brother repents??
I think that we are missing something vital if repentance is left out of the equation.
I think that is a key to understanding why there was so much hurt done in twi...why it became so evil...folks weren`t taught to see the nececity of repentance or the need to change....forgiveness and grace were just assumed. They remained in their fleshly state.
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mj412
but rascal
how do we know if anyone really repents?
because they say they no longer do it?
cant go there with some of the folks I have come across as liars .
people say what others want to hear and do as they want right?
repentance means what to you?
I think this is why I trust very few people.
I try to pray and trust God to help me and put very little stock in people because we all fail and sin.
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rascal
How does that address Luke 17:3 please?
It isn`t up to me to determine whether it is genuine or not...(I think that is what examination of the fruit mentioned in galations is about though)
It simply states that forgiveness is to be given WHEN they repent and ask....period.
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rascal
S`far as I can see not a single person that Geek has mentioned, has met the requirement for being granted forgiveness.
What he is asking us to do would APPEAR to be in direct contradiction of what this particular scripture (luke 17:3) requires.
When this is addressed, I will then consider that forgiveness can be at times, nothing more than something that I chose to do with my brain to make me feel a little better about something I can do nothing about.
Operated as such, I think that it is detrimental to the one supposedly forgiven.
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Shelly
WhiteDove, thank you for your post on page 5. I thoroughly enjoyed your recap of the accomplishments of Charles Sheldon. I think there are too few people willing to put judgments and prejudices aside and really try to understand another’s situation. Talk about walking in their shoes. Very cool.
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CoolWaters
How do the following verses play into this forgiveness question?
******************
White Dove,
I hear you. Ours would be a very interesting discussion to continue...but I think the derailment would be a total wreck of this thread.
:D-->
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mj412
how is it bad for the one forgiven?
esp if you do not wish to continue in a relationship?
I can not think how it would effect them at all.
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CoolWaters
People who are always "forgiven" and never held accountable...
Well, if you can't see a problem for them in this...nothing much I could say.
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mj412
in corinth
they were "in glory" about the one who had sinned Paul was saying that the fact they had glory over it was like the leaven. vs6 it was hurting everyone the fact they had glory about the one who sinned.
he would rather they mourned for the one who sinned.vs2
but they were puffed up about the fact he was taken away (the one who did the deed)vs3.
Paul said their attitude of self righteousness was like the Leaven and ruining everyones attitude towards one another. VS^
clearly states the problem was with the self righteous ones who where puffed up and gloried in another who had sinned.
he then addressed
what was done in VS he said he had judged him and in the name of Jesus christ DELIVERED HIM !!!!!!
the guy was healed of his sinned so in VS 5 THE SPIRIT may be SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus!!!
WOW ! Paul was teling the folks to stop getting to self righteous and puffed up about how that man had done wrong .
their Leaven was ruining everyones attitude.
Paul said he had judged him and he delivered from his sin and his spirit was saved!!!!1
your glorying is not good . he was telling them they were wrong about judging their brother in christ.
We fight not flesh and blood but spirits and principles etc....
fits in nicely here
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rascal
Very good point CW.....
MJ, if the one forgiven is not required to repent and change first....they remain in sin....if they are not accountable...are allowed to blow off their transgressions without ever understanding the need to repent in order to be forgiven...they remain in darkness... probably not even aware of it...ever puzzled as to why their formulas and principles learned in twi fail them.
However if forgiveness is withheld, they might see the necessity of change....maybe not, but the ball is in their court, according to Luke.
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Vertical Limit
The thing is that there is not one blanket answer for every situation and individual.
All that the bible says about forgiveness is true.
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Shellon
Those that have "wronged" me know it and they have to live with their choices.
If I offend, same thing, forgiveness or not.
With some people, the punishment they pile on themselves is much worse than any I could possibly wish for them. That's enough for me, in some cases.
We're all individuals, freedom to choice is ours. What a glorious thing.
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