"We all have been hurt by lcm and his henchmen, or by other people connected with twi. Some of the offenders are no longer affiliated with twi, some are dead, others are still sitting pretty in that outfit."
He is asking people to consider what peace forgiveness might bring a person.
Put that together with what I posted on our position, and you will have our views on forgiveness.
Forgiveness does nothing for either party if legislated.
Also, healing comes in different ways and different times to different people.
Asking a person to consider something is a far cry from legislating or demanding or condemning.
Those things are NOT coming from me or from Geek.
Those just might be echoes of TWI rambling around in your brain. They did not originate from us.
If a person so CHOOSES to forgive a person, there are benefits to both.
If a person so CHOOSES NOT to forgive, there may well be a damn good reason.
Please refer to my first post and the choices I believe I have (note I-- I do not say YOU. I give my opinion for ME) in forgiveness. They are varied. And I do not state that any of them or all of them or none of them or any choice you may make is either right or wrong. --Except when your choice begins to hurt innocent people.
From what I read on this thread, common belief is that I do not have to extend forgiveness in the case where a person does not ask for it and does not believe they have done anything wrong.
As a recipient of False Accusations, I forgive Rascal and all for using false accusations against me, even though she and others haven't repented, nor even admitted to using them.
As a recipient of False Accusations, I forgive Rascal and all for using false accusations against me, even though she and others haven't repented, nor even admitted to using them.
:)-->
See how oldiesman uses "forgiveness" as a means of laying blame elsewhere? Gotta love it.
the thing between rascal and catcup aside... I do not require a person to ask for forgivness to forgive them.
I have a sister that I feel hurts me by her selfishness and greed and I forgive her. She has never asked or recognized the damage done to our relationship by her hurtful words and deeds.
It may be ignorance, or a persons own pain unresolved pain that blinds one to what they do when they react in situations and attack others.
some do not know right from wrong . some refuse to care .
my own forgivness is NOT on the condition I some how make it all ok . Because I often can not .
I forgive because I have been forgiven .
now the relationship and how I may interact with that person takes with it the wisdom I gained in that forgivness.
I set boundaries with folks and how much anyone is allowed access to my life or my emotions is often set by the how much I can allow another to hurt me and in the manner they interact with me.
my sister and I have lost the ability to be very intimate because of some of the choices and manner she continues to interact with me.
I realize she is who she is and it has not changed for us.. so I interact with her on that base line. To stop my own self from getting hurt. but I do not blame her or hold a grudge or want her to change because I realize very few will change unless the motive comes within their own self to do so .
I can love her very much now and I forgive the parts of our interactions that may hurt, and I limit her access.
As Im certain she must do the same.
yes in perfect situation it all comes clean in the wash of loving one another and forgiving.. relationships take a huge amount of work and I guess I have gotten to the point I can invest in those I feel will merit the best reward now. I take folks as they are and love them I hope to be granted the same in life.
I can choose to hold an offender responsible for his actions while NOT carrying bitterness and strife in my heart.
The offender carries the burden. He or she must live with what they have done. And in the case of a sociopath who has no conscience, don't fool yourself into thinking they suffer no consequences. They do. It manifests itself as deficits in many other areas of their lives.
Also:
I don't think you can demand a horribly injured person to extend complete forgiveness immediately to one who refuses to believe they have done anything wrong.
I think that is harmful to do on many levels, especially as pointed out in the link listed by excathedra.
But I do think loving a person when they are the most unlovable, and forgiving a person when they are the most unforgivable, can be the most Godly act a person can make in their own heart between themselves and God and one of the most Christlike compassionate gestures one person can make toward another human being.
I will clarify again here, that if a person CHOOSES to extend forgiveness to a person while they are at their most unforgivable, it is their CHOICE and should come from their HEART.
I NO NO WISE BELIEVE THIS IS MANDATED AT ANY TIME WHATSOEVER.
If a person does decide to do that, it is an incredible gift.
If a person does NOT choose to do it, I BELIEVE they are none worse for wear.
They are no less in God's eyes for it even if they NEVER choose to forgive the person who refuses to acknowledge the wrongdoing and hurt they have caused.
I believe it is possible to hold a person accountable and responsible for damage they did to you, and NOT hold bitterness and strife.
That can take some work, but I disagree with those who say that if you do not extend immediate forgiveness to someone who wronged you, you must of necessity be poisoned by your own bitterness. That view, in my opinion, negates the power of God to heal a person's heart.
Developing compassion and gentleness toward innocent people will prevent survivors from perpetrating abusive behavior on others. Thus they can stop the cycle where they have the power to stop it: within their own hearts and lives.
this is from the link ex gave .
this has been my experience in life.
When I am angry the vibe as I said in the earlier post of my life is angry and frightened.
frightened because I am aware how close I to can lash out and hurt another because of the pain of the meory or the cost to my life or ones I love.
this is how abuse is taught to children from a young age , it is how abusers get footholds in places of power.
because we do what we know to do in life and abusers have been abused ... get it?
I forgive because it is safer for me, for everyone. Life is nicer .
That tears it Catcup, I made no false accusations against Geek.
You have turned this thread into something that it never was....an assault on Geek...
Criminy girl how many pages you gonna keep railing away about the unfairness to Geek? ...He`s a big boy....he was asked some questions.....
You act like some furious tigress defending her cubs...seriously, geek doesn`t need it...
Nobody is insulting him, on the contrary, we are giving him the respect of politely awaiting his address to our questions......
Please untwist your panties and join our discussion....I imagine that you have a great deal of imput.
Soooo aside from your now very clear personal opinion of rascal.....and your obsesive need to protect geeks honor....have you an opinion on the following?
Why are some held accountable in the scriptures and some not....why do some scriptures say that the offending brother repent...and THEN forgive?
It is my opinion that we do not understand forgiveness and what it truly entails, according to these records...
I would like to understand....not fight, nor put up with your petty insults, and attempts at repremand.
"Was it not Geek who was telling me whom *I* am to forgive?"
I asked you to prove he said that. You cannot find one line where he did.
There is your accusation Rascal, which you keep ignoring. Now let's hear your justification for it, I know it's coming.
I am not the one who turned this into an attack on Geek. You began that with the tone of your initial two posts, then accusing him of wagging his finger at you, and then accused him of telling you who to forgive.
You twisted his words.
As for sticking up for my husband, I am quite sure you would be indignant yourself if a person here accused your husband of something he did not do.
I have joined the discussion. You don't want to admit to your accusation. I choose not to let you off the hook for it, which is my CHOICE. You are the one who hurled petty insults. I merely responded to them.
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Vertical Limit
"We all have been hurt by lcm and his henchmen, or by other people connected with twi. Some of the offenders are no longer affiliated with twi, some are dead, others are still sitting pretty in that outfit."
This statement singles out who to forgive...
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Cowgirl
Catcup...........Why don't you calm down, and go listen to yourself!!!!
Cowgirl
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Catcup
There is no implication there, Vertical.
This is where you are putting words in his mouth.
We do not imply you MUST FORGIVE!
He is asking people to consider what peace forgiveness might bring a person.
Put that together with what I posted on our position, and you will have our views on forgiveness.
Forgiveness does nothing for either party if legislated.
Also, healing comes in different ways and different times to different people.
Asking a person to consider something is a far cry from legislating or demanding or condemning.
Those things are NOT coming from me or from Geek.
Those just might be echoes of TWI rambling around in your brain. They did not originate from us.
If a person so CHOOSES to forgive a person, there are benefits to both.
If a person so CHOOSES NOT to forgive, there may well be a damn good reason.
Please refer to my first post and the choices I believe I have (note I-- I do not say YOU. I give my opinion for ME) in forgiveness. They are varied. And I do not state that any of them or all of them or none of them or any choice you may make is either right or wrong. --Except when your choice begins to hurt innocent people.
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Vertical Limit
"Consider what forgiveness may bring to you."
This statement includes rascal.
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Catcup
Listen to myself?
I'm evidently I'm one of only a few people doing that.
I think I have every right to point out a false accusation.
I pointed them out while I was IN TWI and I will point them out HERE.
IF that ruffles a few feathers, so be it.
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Catcup
Vertical,
HAS SHE ASKED?
Please see "choices."
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Vertical Limit
"My question to you is are you ready to try some forgiveness?"
This one includes rascal also.
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Vertical Limit
has she asked what?
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Catcup
From what I read on this thread, common belief is that I do not have to extend forgiveness in the case where a person does not ask for it and does not believe they have done anything wrong.
That applies to TWI, no?
And doesn't apply here for some reason?
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oldiesman
As a recipient of False Accusations, I forgive Rascal and all for using false accusations against me, even though she and others haven't repented, nor even admitted to using them.
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Vertical Limit
For the record, Catcup, I thought you and Geek said some good stuff about forgiveness.
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Catcup
Thanks, Vertical. I appreciate that.
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satori001
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mj412
the thing between rascal and catcup aside... I do not require a person to ask for forgivness to forgive them.
I have a sister that I feel hurts me by her selfishness and greed and I forgive her. She has never asked or recognized the damage done to our relationship by her hurtful words and deeds.
It may be ignorance, or a persons own pain unresolved pain that blinds one to what they do when they react in situations and attack others.
some do not know right from wrong . some refuse to care .
my own forgivness is NOT on the condition I some how make it all ok . Because I often can not .
I forgive because I have been forgiven .
now the relationship and how I may interact with that person takes with it the wisdom I gained in that forgivness.
I set boundaries with folks and how much anyone is allowed access to my life or my emotions is often set by the how much I can allow another to hurt me and in the manner they interact with me.
my sister and I have lost the ability to be very intimate because of some of the choices and manner she continues to interact with me.
I realize she is who she is and it has not changed for us.. so I interact with her on that base line. To stop my own self from getting hurt. but I do not blame her or hold a grudge or want her to change because I realize very few will change unless the motive comes within their own self to do so .
I can love her very much now and I forgive the parts of our interactions that may hurt, and I limit her access.
As Im certain she must do the same.
yes in perfect situation it all comes clean in the wash of loving one another and forgiving.. relationships take a huge amount of work and I guess I have gotten to the point I can invest in those I feel will merit the best reward now. I take folks as they are and love them I hope to be granted the same in life.
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excathedra
there are some good points here:
http://surrealist.org/gurukula/forgiveness.html
sorry for just doing the link thing. sometimes i have a hard time expressing myself
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excathedra
yeah satori, gave me the warm fuzzies
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Catcup
Cowgirl,
If you want to cheer for the Way Corps, you are talking to the wrong person if you are talking to me.
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Catcup
Ex, your link says it very well.
I will reiterate a few things I said before:
I can choose to hold an offender responsible for his actions while NOT carrying bitterness and strife in my heart.
The offender carries the burden. He or she must live with what they have done. And in the case of a sociopath who has no conscience, don't fool yourself into thinking they suffer no consequences. They do. It manifests itself as deficits in many other areas of their lives.
Also:
I don't think you can demand a horribly injured person to extend complete forgiveness immediately to one who refuses to believe they have done anything wrong.
I think that is harmful to do on many levels, especially as pointed out in the link listed by excathedra.
But I do think loving a person when they are the most unlovable, and forgiving a person when they are the most unforgivable, can be the most Godly act a person can make in their own heart between themselves and God and one of the most Christlike compassionate gestures one person can make toward another human being.
I will clarify again here, that if a person CHOOSES to extend forgiveness to a person while they are at their most unforgivable, it is their CHOICE and should come from their HEART.
I NO NO WISE BELIEVE THIS IS MANDATED AT ANY TIME WHATSOEVER.
If a person does decide to do that, it is an incredible gift.
If a person does NOT choose to do it, I BELIEVE they are none worse for wear.
They are no less in God's eyes for it even if they NEVER choose to forgive the person who refuses to acknowledge the wrongdoing and hurt they have caused.
I believe it is possible to hold a person accountable and responsible for damage they did to you, and NOT hold bitterness and strife.
That can take some work, but I disagree with those who say that if you do not extend immediate forgiveness to someone who wronged you, you must of necessity be poisoned by your own bitterness. That view, in my opinion, negates the power of God to heal a person's heart.
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Cowgirl
Catcup, I'm NOT cheering for the Way Corps, I was simply pointing out that you sound like Way Corps !
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oldiesman
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mj412
Developing compassion and gentleness toward innocent people will prevent survivors from perpetrating abusive behavior on others. Thus they can stop the cycle where they have the power to stop it: within their own hearts and lives.
this is from the link ex gave .
this has been my experience in life.
When I am angry the vibe as I said in the earlier post of my life is angry and frightened.
frightened because I am aware how close I to can lash out and hurt another because of the pain of the meory or the cost to my life or ones I love.
this is how abuse is taught to children from a young age , it is how abusers get footholds in places of power.
because we do what we know to do in life and abusers have been abused ... get it?
I forgive because it is safer for me, for everyone. Life is nicer .
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rascal
That tears it Catcup, I made no false accusations against Geek.
You have turned this thread into something that it never was....an assault on Geek...
Criminy girl how many pages you gonna keep railing away about the unfairness to Geek? ...He`s a big boy....he was asked some questions.....
You act like some furious tigress defending her cubs...seriously, geek doesn`t need it...
Nobody is insulting him, on the contrary, we are giving him the respect of politely awaiting his address to our questions......
Please untwist your panties and join our discussion....I imagine that you have a great deal of imput.
Soooo aside from your now very clear personal opinion of rascal.....and your obsesive need to protect geeks honor....have you an opinion on the following?
Why are some held accountable in the scriptures and some not....why do some scriptures say that the offending brother repent...and THEN forgive?
It is my opinion that we do not understand forgiveness and what it truly entails, according to these records...
I would like to understand....not fight, nor put up with your petty insults, and attempts at repremand.
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Catcup
"Was it not Geek who was telling me whom *I* am to forgive?"
I asked you to prove he said that. You cannot find one line where he did.
There is your accusation Rascal, which you keep ignoring. Now let's hear your justification for it, I know it's coming.
I am not the one who turned this into an attack on Geek. You began that with the tone of your initial two posts, then accusing him of wagging his finger at you, and then accused him of telling you who to forgive.
You twisted his words.
As for sticking up for my husband, I am quite sure you would be indignant yourself if a person here accused your husband of something he did not do.
I have joined the discussion. You don't want to admit to your accusation. I choose not to let you off the hook for it, which is my CHOICE. You are the one who hurled petty insults. I merely responded to them.
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Vertical Limit
I don't know rascal, I guess she missed it.
Maybe it's time to let it go...up to you though.
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