Geek ole' friend you are a brave soul. But I suspect that you will be needing this here flak jacket soon
Funny you should bring that up though I was sitting on the porch of Charles Sheldon's study today where he wrote the book In His Steps the classic what would Jesus Do Book?
Regardless of the posts that follow and the rationals that attempt to justify their positions or lay credence to their excuses...TRULLY your heart is pure and "simple" ...and in this simplistic purity....(in the midst, for example, of some who advertise unsolicited and unrealated posts in a thread and take pride in being responsible for TWI losing $50K in abundant sharing)....lies the healing that we all need to humbly acknowledge as we look to ourselves and what God has so willingly and unselfishly forgiven us for.
Thank you Research Geek for sharing your pure heart with us.
Nope, Maybe if they ever ask for it, I might consider it, though it isn`t mine to give or for me to excuse, when it comes to what they did to our brothers and sisters.
As I understand the requirements, God doesn`t forgive us before we repent and ask, I don`t figure it works any differently for twi.
They have not because they ask not I guess...
If it floats your boat go for it, but I however, have no problem with feeling pure disgust for the obscene behavior perpetrated by folks claiming to represent God........reading the record of Jesus and the money changers, and the way he delt with the pharacies, the things he threatened those with, who offend children, It would be my guess, that he didn`t either.
As I recall, the scriptures take a pretty dim view of predators that devour God`s sheep.
Geek, I gotta ask you, and anybody else shaking their finger in our collective faces about forgiveness....
What in your opinion, was the difference in the biblical accounts of people being destroyed for their evil, and those that were to be forgiven? Eh?
When folks hurt God`s people, destruction followed, When Jesus addressed the saducies, and also in the account of the money changers, I never saw it written that he turned to the crowd n said *you neeeeeed to forgive these guys*
No it would seem he called the pharacies some pretty bad names...it would seem also that he treated the money changers pretty harshly.
What about ananias and saphira...never saw anybody being lectured to forgive them either...they were always held up as an object lesson in consequences.
Why were some folks sins worthey of scorn and death and some worthey of forgiveness?
Why were the consequences particularly harsh for folks who hurt those who looked to God?
Could it not be that these predators of the ones searching for God, the innocents who trusted twi to lead them as they promised....could it not be that they TOO are worthey of scorn? Worthey of our disgust and contempt for their betrayal of our trust?
Would it not behoove us to feel the same outrage that Jesus displayed when confronting the pharacies over THEIR betrayal of their responsibilities as representatives of God?
I have no use for those predators, those destroyers of saints lives....sorry.
I run into people from TWI from time to time, most recently my old twig coordinators. Their son has been playing soccer on a team against my son.
I have no bad feelings towards them whatsoever (though there was a time when I did). I am the one who approached them with friendly conversation, hi how are ya's, etc.
It is not the individuals within TWI I have a problem with, it is the organization as a whole. Though I forgive, I will still speak my mind regarding the probelms within TWI which lead to an abuse of power (among other things) and how that abuse has manifested itself and affected my life.
First, on what would Jesus do: How should I know?! How about what would Research Geek do? No idea again. Mind reading is not my specialty. I think it is the height of arrogance to say that we know the heart of any man and the mind of Jesus Christ in any situation other than our own to be able to say with any certainty. It's just speculation. And my forgiveness won't be based on a wild a** guess.
Second, there doesn't seem to be this Jesus the Forgiver character in my Bible who only spent his days yelling "forgive everyone you know." He did talk about forgiveness but a lot more. If life was so one dimensional and simple then why didn't God just forgive us? Why did his son have to die? If I just have to say "it's ok, I forgive you", why couldn't the creator of the Heavens and the Universe be that powerful? He expected something but we shouldn't? That seems more like feel good, new age thinking than God's perspective to me. Jesus expected things of people too.
There are folks I have forgiven from TWI and I have been forgiven by others. Then I forget about it and move on.
However, there are some who would be impossible to forgive as I do not know them any more and have no idea who they are today. For all I know, they could still be preying on unsuspecting victims. I have dealt with that reality and moved on.
If I saw people who hurt me again? Well, I have. I talked to them and we worked it out in a two cases. In the others? Either "you're possessed" because I won't go back to TWI or ignored. Also, I have made the effort to reach out to people I feel like I could have treated better and made amends. And my wrongs were nowhere near what Loy and his posse did. For the laundry list of jerks I met in TWI? Well, my phone is listed and it isn't ringing.
Research Geek, this is a great question. Even though I think it is unreasonable to just pass out mindless pardons, when we did get to genuine forgiveness, it was so healing. And in two cases, real friendships were restored. THAT, in my opinion, is the real thing and what God was after in the first place.
TWI used this concept and developed it's own doctrine on the subject only to enslave it's own people even deeper into their pocket-and they still do the same things again.
What does it mean to forgive?
JC said forgive them Father for they know not what they do. What about the ones who know what they are doing? There maybe a line drawn in the sands of time.
Revenge belongs to the Lord. Yet we have done things to expose their wicked ways and free the minds trapped in TWI's snare.
The Lord will come to each of us and the wheat will be separated from the chaff. We are warned by JC to be ready.
I practice forgiveness in my marriage and family life and receive forgiveness there, also.
In the work place, I also try to forgive, though I do not trust folk who take advantage of me, and will speak up.
As far as the Way, LCM, past leadership--I see no reason to forgive them, since I am not desiring any type of relationship with them, nor are any of them seeking my forgiveness or friendship. My trust or any enjoyment in a realtionship with some from my past is gone.
If some were to approach me and want forgiveness I might or might not give it. It takes alot of work to rebuild trust once lost, and forgiveness will not wash away the past. I would more like to encourage them to make the changes they would need so they could forgive themselves.
Each of us comes here for a differant reason. I'm not mad at TWI. In many ways it was good for me making me the man I am today. I came to meet old friends and to go over again and validate what exatly my beliefs are.
Jesus is probably mad about some of our attitudes but happy when we seek him.
I don't freely hand out love, respect, trust or forgiveness unless it's earned. I'm a man - I don't hand that stuff out just because it's expected or demanded (in fact, that's a good way to earn my contempt) or even requested. Earn it or stay the hell away.
I forgive easily - all it takes is an admission of error, an apology and an attitude of change. In the case of TWI bigwigs, it would take a public apology (like here at Greasespot or... TWI's website?), but I would be fine with the bastards with just that little gesture. Until then, they can rot in hell.
The people who got me in "the word" have apologized time and time again and they didn't even need to - they were just trying to help someone they cared about and were not responsible for any of the abuse. When they realized they were wrong they immediately took steps to change. They have my undying love and respect.
I would love to apologize to those that I've gotten into "the word" and/or taught wrongly but they're still in and wouldn't hear it. When the time comes that they're ready, I'll be banging on their door asking for forgiveness. I expect the same courtesy.
I luck out, I guess. I have no one to forgive. I was out before LCM reigned, and Wierwille is dead. Any other slights were those of the day-to-day mistake variety, easily forgiven.
I prefer the non-Biblical word "pardon" where the unrepentant are concerned, which technically means to absolve from punishment, not necessarily from guilt. Pardoning an enemy means I overlook the offense and do not seek to punish the offender. I agree RG, one can be consumed by seeking revenge, even when it is justified. Which is why when the owners of Waydale just wanted to walk away after their lawsuit and settlement, I was very supportive. I know how much a court case can interfere with personal lives and peace of mind.
And if it is true that LCM has a personality disorder, you will probably never have the "closure" of repentance from him. He will probably think that what happened to him is the fault of everyone else.
I am in a situation now where I am hassled by an ex, as several of you know. He wants me to forgive him. He wants me to reconcile with him. He's even tried to convince me of this on Biblical grounds (which becomes real funny when he pulls out I Cor. 7:11, 'cuz then he never should have married me at all, and I should go back to my FIRST husband!).
WHY does he want forgiveness? Because he's sorry? No, he has never repented, and his lies continue to this day. I have already pardoned him of much of it, because I want MY life to go on. But I have no interest in any kind of relationship with him, and will not let him near my kid unsupervised.
It sounds very much like what Wierwille, Martindale, and any unrepentant sinner pulls -- "to be a good Christian, you have to forgive me." Guilt me into forgiving. Why do they want forgiveness? So they can continue to perpetrate the same evils.
Good point. I agree. When you dont forgive, the unforgiving party suffers the most. It like they are occupying your mind without paying rent. In addition, bitterness causes medical problems.
Its a fact that longstanding resentment can elevate BP, alter diet and many other things. When you forgive someone you can get them out of your mind. In addition, it frees your mind to approach your own life with better resolve and less doubt.
One can disagree without having hostility. That is a blessed place to be at and a difficult one to attain.
I think it's great that no one has attacked RG personally AND no one has tried to imply that he somehow shared in the blame for any hurt he suffered. :-)
Rascal: "Geek, I gotta ask you, and anybody else shaking their finger in our collective faces about forgiveness...."
I think any reasonable and rational person reading Geek's original post here would agree that this is not the tone with which Geek wrote his question.
This is a question each person can answer for himself, between him or herself and God.
For myself, I believe the offender (if still alive) needs to apologize before I choose to extend my forgiveness to him, plain and simple.
Just because I choose not to forgive a person who has not asked for it, does not mean I must carry a burden because of it.
I can choose to hold an offender responsible for his actions while NOT carrying bitterness and strife in my heart.
The offender carries the burden. He or she must live with what they have done. And in the case of a sociopath who has no conscience, don't fool yourself into thinking they suffer no consequences. They do. It manifests itself as deficits in many other areas of their lives.
I can, if I so choose, forgive a person who has NOT asked for it. By the way, isn't that what God did for us? Ephesians says in chapter two that God extended his love toward us WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS. We can of free will choose to be like Him and do the same.
While I believe I can extend forgiveness to a person for his or her trespasses against me, I do not believe I have the authority to excuse them for trespasses they have made against others. That is between the offender and the other person.
However, a person CAN choose, to not only not forgive, but to withold forgiveness AND carry such a burden of bitterness and hatred that it perverts their own understanding and viewpoint. That is the case where the acid of hatred hurts the holder as much as whomever they pour it out upon. I have seen that, and it is sad. The person's viewpoint is so distorted and poisoned, they swing out blindly at anything that appears that it MIGHT threaten them-- and sometimes hurt innocent people.
That is the person who needs to take a step back and consider how to hold the offender responsible for heinous deeds that hurt them, and also seek help for the sting of pain that still remains from the damage done by the offender.
Unfair as it is to be injured by an unrepentant party, recovery from this pain takes some work. On the part of the person who is hurt. And it takes time. It takes time for the person to regather their strength, sort things out, gain some perspective, and repeatedly take it to God until they are healed.
I don't think you can demand a horribly injured person to extend complete forgiveness immediately to one who refuses to believe they have done anything wrong.
But I do think loving a person when they are the most unlovable, and forgiving a person when they are the most unforgivable, can be the most Godly act a person can make in their own heart between themselves and God and one of the most Christlike compassionate gestures one person can make toward another human being.
And I believe it is POSSIBLE to do that AND STILL HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.
But one must beware that bitterness does not taint their perspective toward others. I have seen that happen and it ain't purty, folks.
quote:So I ask, is anyone ready for some forgiveness? Is it not true that Job was not healed until he could bring himself to pray for his friends? Is it not true that Jesus told us to pray for our enemies and to love them. Was Jesus nuts, or did he have our best interests in mind? Consider what forgiveness may bring to you. Does anyone want to talk about this?
Research Geek, I'm with you 100% on this. Jesus also said that a person's sins will not be forgiven, unless they forgive others' sins. Only problem is, here at Greasespot, forgiveness is viewed by some very aggressive posters as whitewashing, and mitigating twi damages.
I believe I have the authority to forgive someone who has wronged me-- specifically for the things they have done to ME.
I do not believe though, that I have the authority to absolve anyone for sins they have committed against others.
That is between the offender, the person they offended, and God.
So if I choose to forgive someone for what they did to me, how is it anyone elses business to decide that I have whitewashed an issue? The issue is between myself and the other person, and God.
However, if I decide I have the authority to excuse someone for the sins they committed against another person,
I insert myself in something that is none of my business, and assign myself authority that is God's alone.
I know Geeks tone wasn`t as such, but those that jumped on his band wagon were...as has been demonstrated by these posters before.
I am of the opinion that it is perfectly acceptable to hold in complete contempt, as well as view with repugnance a person of low moral fiber and poor character WITHOUT being considered filled with bitterness or strife.
Folks assume because I find a person and the behavior they endulged in, to be disgusting and reprehensible, that I am filled with rage or hate ....not so, it`s calling a spade a spade, n it`s identifying spiritual darkness...I don`t see scripturally where we are required to forgive an unrepenant sinner....As far as I can see, that is a missaplication of the forgiveness principle.
Any thoughts Catcup as to my question? WHY were some people in the scriptures accorded forgiveness and others worthey of contempt and required to face the consequences...even unto death?
Why did no one mourn annanias n saphira? why didn`t people run around trying to convince the hard hearted first century believers to forgive the pharacies and cut THEM some slack?
I`d be honestly interested to know.
Maybe if Geek has some answeres to those questions, I would be willing to consider his position.
I want to know why vpw is to be viewed as any less reprehensible than any OTHER person in history who utilized God and scripture to steal from the unsuspecting....utilised the authority garnered as a minister to excuse the robbery and sating of their lusts....The ministers who betrayed the holy trust placed in them, not only by those they promised to minister too, but God almighty himself whom they claimed to serve?
Maybe when Geek or others can answere these questions...when I understand ...I will then consider his opinion to hold more water than just nice sounding platitudes.
Those questions were posed to Geek, so I will let him answer them.
Any thoughts on Ephesians chapter two and how God loved us and sent his only begotten Son to die for our sins while we were dead in trespasses and sins?
God extended his forgiveness toward us even when we were at enmity with Him.
Actually I'll let you mull that over with God. Your issues with those who have offended you and your decision how to approach it, is between you and God. How it spills over onto your brothers and sisters, though, is not.
However, I still stand by my original posts.
While not everyone can get there immediately, I believe it is a worthy goal.
I have pondered forgiveness since it came up here last time.
I realize that forgiveness cannot be legislated, I have no right to demand anyone here to 'get over it', yet I also know that forgiveness is a large step towards personal healing.
Since we are all at varying degrees of healing from TWI, we cannot make a broad decree for all to 'forgive'. It will come as an individual is ready to do it.
I have learned that forgiveness does NOT involve:
-Forgetting (as in "forgive 'n forget)
-solicitation by the offender
-trusting the offender like it never happened
What it does involve:
-me and God
I think it is good to address this topic every so often, for me it adds perspective to it.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
--------------------------
It's just the way VPW said it, when he said it's easy to forgive someone else when you bear in mind what God forgave YOU for.
There seems to be a lot more biblical precedent to forgive, than the other way around, since we are all sinners and God forgave us and who are we to have a continuous critical mindset?
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WhiteDove
Geek ole' friend you are a brave soul. But I suspect that you will be needing this here flak jacket soon
Funny you should bring that up though I was sitting on the porch of Charles Sheldon's study today where he wrote the book In His Steps the classic what would Jesus Do Book?
The answer is embarrasingly obvious.......
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Dartanian3m
Greetings Research Geek!
What a breathe of fresh air you are!!!
Regardless of the posts that follow and the rationals that attempt to justify their positions or lay credence to their excuses...TRULLY your heart is pure and "simple" ...and in this simplistic purity....(in the midst, for example, of some who advertise unsolicited and unrealated posts in a thread and take pride in being responsible for TWI losing $50K in abundant sharing)....lies the healing that we all need to humbly acknowledge as we look to ourselves and what God has so willingly and unselfishly forgiven us for.
Thank you Research Geek for sharing your pure heart with us.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Research Geek
Yes I am one that has forgave men like LCM and others
Now I still point out the evil of the Way but I have long forgave them all
with love and an holy kiss Roy
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Sunny1
Amen, Brother. Well said.
:-)
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rascal
Nope, Maybe if they ever ask for it, I might consider it, though it isn`t mine to give or for me to excuse, when it comes to what they did to our brothers and sisters.
As I understand the requirements, God doesn`t forgive us before we repent and ask, I don`t figure it works any differently for twi.
They have not because they ask not I guess...
If it floats your boat go for it, but I however, have no problem with feeling pure disgust for the obscene behavior perpetrated by folks claiming to represent God........reading the record of Jesus and the money changers, and the way he delt with the pharacies, the things he threatened those with, who offend children, It would be my guess, that he didn`t either.
As I recall, the scriptures take a pretty dim view of predators that devour God`s sheep.
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rascal
Geek, I gotta ask you, and anybody else shaking their finger in our collective faces about forgiveness....
What in your opinion, was the difference in the biblical accounts of people being destroyed for their evil, and those that were to be forgiven? Eh?
When folks hurt God`s people, destruction followed, When Jesus addressed the saducies, and also in the account of the money changers, I never saw it written that he turned to the crowd n said *you neeeeeed to forgive these guys*
No it would seem he called the pharacies some pretty bad names...it would seem also that he treated the money changers pretty harshly.
What about ananias and saphira...never saw anybody being lectured to forgive them either...they were always held up as an object lesson in consequences.
Why were some folks sins worthey of scorn and death and some worthey of forgiveness?
Why were the consequences particularly harsh for folks who hurt those who looked to God?
Could it not be that these predators of the ones searching for God, the innocents who trusted twi to lead them as they promised....could it not be that they TOO are worthey of scorn? Worthey of our disgust and contempt for their betrayal of our trust?
Would it not behoove us to feel the same outrage that Jesus displayed when confronting the pharacies over THEIR betrayal of their responsibilities as representatives of God?
I have no use for those predators, those destroyers of saints lives....sorry.
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Abigail
Forgive, sure. Forget, no.
I run into people from TWI from time to time, most recently my old twig coordinators. Their son has been playing soccer on a team against my son.
I have no bad feelings towards them whatsoever (though there was a time when I did). I am the one who approached them with friendly conversation, hi how are ya's, etc.
It is not the individuals within TWI I have a problem with, it is the organization as a whole. Though I forgive, I will still speak my mind regarding the probelms within TWI which lead to an abuse of power (among other things) and how that abuse has manifested itself and affected my life.
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excathedra
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JustThinking
First, on what would Jesus do: How should I know?! How about what would Research Geek do? No idea again. Mind reading is not my specialty. I think it is the height of arrogance to say that we know the heart of any man and the mind of Jesus Christ in any situation other than our own to be able to say with any certainty. It's just speculation. And my forgiveness won't be based on a wild a** guess.
Second, there doesn't seem to be this Jesus the Forgiver character in my Bible who only spent his days yelling "forgive everyone you know." He did talk about forgiveness but a lot more. If life was so one dimensional and simple then why didn't God just forgive us? Why did his son have to die? If I just have to say "it's ok, I forgive you", why couldn't the creator of the Heavens and the Universe be that powerful? He expected something but we shouldn't? That seems more like feel good, new age thinking than God's perspective to me. Jesus expected things of people too.
There are folks I have forgiven from TWI and I have been forgiven by others. Then I forget about it and move on.
However, there are some who would be impossible to forgive as I do not know them any more and have no idea who they are today. For all I know, they could still be preying on unsuspecting victims. I have dealt with that reality and moved on.
If I saw people who hurt me again? Well, I have. I talked to them and we worked it out in a two cases. In the others? Either "you're possessed" because I won't go back to TWI or ignored. Also, I have made the effort to reach out to people I feel like I could have treated better and made amends. And my wrongs were nowhere near what Loy and his posse did. For the laundry list of jerks I met in TWI? Well, my phone is listed and it isn't ringing.
Research Geek, this is a great question. Even though I think it is unreasonable to just pass out mindless pardons, when we did get to genuine forgiveness, it was so healing. And in two cases, real friendships were restored. THAT, in my opinion, is the real thing and what God was after in the first place.
JT
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Vertical Limit
To forgive or not to forgive.
Is that the question?
I wonder-What is your reason for asking?
TWI used this concept and developed it's own doctrine on the subject only to enslave it's own people even deeper into their pocket-and they still do the same things again.
What does it mean to forgive?
JC said forgive them Father for they know not what they do. What about the ones who know what they are doing? There maybe a line drawn in the sands of time.
Revenge belongs to the Lord. Yet we have done things to expose their wicked ways and free the minds trapped in TWI's snare.
The Lord will come to each of us and the wheat will be separated from the chaff. We are warned by JC to be ready.
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Bramble
I practice forgiveness in my marriage and family life and receive forgiveness there, also.
In the work place, I also try to forgive, though I do not trust folk who take advantage of me, and will speak up.
As far as the Way, LCM, past leadership--I see no reason to forgive them, since I am not desiring any type of relationship with them, nor are any of them seeking my forgiveness or friendship. My trust or any enjoyment in a realtionship with some from my past is gone.
If some were to approach me and want forgiveness I might or might not give it. It takes alot of work to rebuild trust once lost, and forgiveness will not wash away the past. I would more like to encourage them to make the changes they would need so they could forgive themselves.
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ex70sHouston
Geek
You have raised an interesting question WWJD.
Each of us comes here for a differant reason. I'm not mad at TWI. In many ways it was good for me making me the man I am today. I came to meet old friends and to go over again and validate what exatly my beliefs are.
Jesus is probably mad about some of our attitudes but happy when we seek him.
So my question is why are YOU here?
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Jason P
Absolutely not.
I don't freely hand out love, respect, trust or forgiveness unless it's earned. I'm a man - I don't hand that stuff out just because it's expected or demanded (in fact, that's a good way to earn my contempt) or even requested. Earn it or stay the hell away.
I forgive easily - all it takes is an admission of error, an apology and an attitude of change. In the case of TWI bigwigs, it would take a public apology (like here at Greasespot or... TWI's website?), but I would be fine with the bastards with just that little gesture. Until then, they can rot in hell.
The people who got me in "the word" have apologized time and time again and they didn't even need to - they were just trying to help someone they cared about and were not responsible for any of the abuse. When they realized they were wrong they immediately took steps to change. They have my undying love and respect.
I would love to apologize to those that I've gotten into "the word" and/or taught wrongly but they're still in and wouldn't hear it. When the time comes that they're ready, I'll be banging on their door asking for forgiveness. I expect the same courtesy.
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shazdancer
Some amazingly wonderful responses here already. Touché, excy!
:D-->
I luck out, I guess. I have no one to forgive. I was out before LCM reigned, and Wierwille is dead. Any other slights were those of the day-to-day mistake variety, easily forgiven.
I prefer the non-Biblical word "pardon" where the unrepentant are concerned, which technically means to absolve from punishment, not necessarily from guilt. Pardoning an enemy means I overlook the offense and do not seek to punish the offender. I agree RG, one can be consumed by seeking revenge, even when it is justified. Which is why when the owners of Waydale just wanted to walk away after their lawsuit and settlement, I was very supportive. I know how much a court case can interfere with personal lives and peace of mind.
And if it is true that LCM has a personality disorder, you will probably never have the "closure" of repentance from him. He will probably think that what happened to him is the fault of everyone else.
I am in a situation now where I am hassled by an ex, as several of you know. He wants me to forgive him. He wants me to reconcile with him. He's even tried to convince me of this on Biblical grounds (which becomes real funny when he pulls out I Cor. 7:11, 'cuz then he never should have married me at all, and I should go back to my FIRST husband!).
WHY does he want forgiveness? Because he's sorry? No, he has never repented, and his lies continue to this day. I have already pardoned him of much of it, because I want MY life to go on. But I have no interest in any kind of relationship with him, and will not let him near my kid unsupervised.
It sounds very much like what Wierwille, Martindale, and any unrepentant sinner pulls -- "to be a good Christian, you have to forgive me." Guilt me into forgiving. Why do they want forgiveness? So they can continue to perpetrate the same evils.
Regards,
Shaz
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sky4it
research geek:
Good point. I agree. When you dont forgive, the unforgiving party suffers the most. It like they are occupying your mind without paying rent. In addition, bitterness causes medical problems.
Its a fact that longstanding resentment can elevate BP, alter diet and many other things. When you forgive someone you can get them out of your mind. In addition, it frees your mind to approach your own life with better resolve and less doubt.
One can disagree without having hostility. That is a blessed place to be at and a difficult one to attain.
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JustThinking
I think it's great that no one has attacked RG personally AND no one has tried to imply that he somehow shared in the blame for any hurt he suffered. :-)
JT
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Catcup
Rascal: "Geek, I gotta ask you, and anybody else shaking their finger in our collective faces about forgiveness...."
I think any reasonable and rational person reading Geek's original post here would agree that this is not the tone with which Geek wrote his question.
This is a question each person can answer for himself, between him or herself and God.
For myself, I believe the offender (if still alive) needs to apologize before I choose to extend my forgiveness to him, plain and simple.
Just because I choose not to forgive a person who has not asked for it, does not mean I must carry a burden because of it.
I can choose to hold an offender responsible for his actions while NOT carrying bitterness and strife in my heart.
The offender carries the burden. He or she must live with what they have done. And in the case of a sociopath who has no conscience, don't fool yourself into thinking they suffer no consequences. They do. It manifests itself as deficits in many other areas of their lives.
I can, if I so choose, forgive a person who has NOT asked for it. By the way, isn't that what God did for us? Ephesians says in chapter two that God extended his love toward us WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS. We can of free will choose to be like Him and do the same.
While I believe I can extend forgiveness to a person for his or her trespasses against me, I do not believe I have the authority to excuse them for trespasses they have made against others. That is between the offender and the other person.
However, a person CAN choose, to not only not forgive, but to withold forgiveness AND carry such a burden of bitterness and hatred that it perverts their own understanding and viewpoint. That is the case where the acid of hatred hurts the holder as much as whomever they pour it out upon. I have seen that, and it is sad. The person's viewpoint is so distorted and poisoned, they swing out blindly at anything that appears that it MIGHT threaten them-- and sometimes hurt innocent people.
That is the person who needs to take a step back and consider how to hold the offender responsible for heinous deeds that hurt them, and also seek help for the sting of pain that still remains from the damage done by the offender.
Unfair as it is to be injured by an unrepentant party, recovery from this pain takes some work. On the part of the person who is hurt. And it takes time. It takes time for the person to regather their strength, sort things out, gain some perspective, and repeatedly take it to God until they are healed.
I don't think you can demand a horribly injured person to extend complete forgiveness immediately to one who refuses to believe they have done anything wrong.
But I do think loving a person when they are the most unlovable, and forgiving a person when they are the most unforgivable, can be the most Godly act a person can make in their own heart between themselves and God and one of the most Christlike compassionate gestures one person can make toward another human being.
And I believe it is POSSIBLE to do that AND STILL HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.
But one must beware that bitterness does not taint their perspective toward others. I have seen that happen and it ain't purty, folks.
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oldiesman
I'm with you though, if it means anything.
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Catcup
I believe I have the authority to forgive someone who has wronged me-- specifically for the things they have done to ME.
I do not believe though, that I have the authority to absolve anyone for sins they have committed against others.
That is between the offender, the person they offended, and God.
So if I choose to forgive someone for what they did to me, how is it anyone elses business to decide that I have whitewashed an issue? The issue is between myself and the other person, and God.
However, if I decide I have the authority to excuse someone for the sins they committed against another person,
I insert myself in something that is none of my business, and assign myself authority that is God's alone.
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rascal
I know Geeks tone wasn`t as such, but those that jumped on his band wagon were...as has been demonstrated by these posters before.
I am of the opinion that it is perfectly acceptable to hold in complete contempt, as well as view with repugnance a person of low moral fiber and poor character WITHOUT being considered filled with bitterness or strife.
Folks assume because I find a person and the behavior they endulged in, to be disgusting and reprehensible, that I am filled with rage or hate ....not so, it`s calling a spade a spade, n it`s identifying spiritual darkness...I don`t see scripturally where we are required to forgive an unrepenant sinner....As far as I can see, that is a missaplication of the forgiveness principle.
Any thoughts Catcup as to my question? WHY were some people in the scriptures accorded forgiveness and others worthey of contempt and required to face the consequences...even unto death?
Why did no one mourn annanias n saphira? why didn`t people run around trying to convince the hard hearted first century believers to forgive the pharacies and cut THEM some slack?
I`d be honestly interested to know.
Maybe if Geek has some answeres to those questions, I would be willing to consider his position.
I want to know why vpw is to be viewed as any less reprehensible than any OTHER person in history who utilized God and scripture to steal from the unsuspecting....utilised the authority garnered as a minister to excuse the robbery and sating of their lusts....The ministers who betrayed the holy trust placed in them, not only by those they promised to minister too, but God almighty himself whom they claimed to serve?
Maybe when Geek or others can answere these questions...when I understand ...I will then consider his opinion to hold more water than just nice sounding platitudes.
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Catcup
Those questions were posed to Geek, so I will let him answer them.
Any thoughts on Ephesians chapter two and how God loved us and sent his only begotten Son to die for our sins while we were dead in trespasses and sins?
God extended his forgiveness toward us even when we were at enmity with Him.
Actually I'll let you mull that over with God. Your issues with those who have offended you and your decision how to approach it, is between you and God. How it spills over onto your brothers and sisters, though, is not.
However, I still stand by my original posts.
While not everyone can get there immediately, I believe it is a worthy goal.
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wow76-78
Catcup: what an AMAZING post !!!
All others: excellent food for for thought.
I have pondered forgiveness since it came up here last time.
I realize that forgiveness cannot be legislated, I have no right to demand anyone here to 'get over it', yet I also know that forgiveness is a large step towards personal healing.
Since we are all at varying degrees of healing from TWI, we cannot make a broad decree for all to 'forgive'. It will come as an individual is ready to do it.
I have learned that forgiveness does NOT involve:
-Forgetting (as in "forgive 'n forget)
-solicitation by the offender
-trusting the offender like it never happened
What it does involve:
-me and God
I think it is good to address this topic every so often, for me it adds perspective to it.
Thanks for bringing it up, Research Geek.
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rascal
Yeah Catcup, I have, but the forgiveness has never been ours untill we repented and asked ..was it?
Sure the questions were addressed to Geek, and now to you....
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oldiesman
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
--------------------------
It's just the way VPW said it, when he said it's easy to forgive someone else when you bear in mind what God forgave YOU for.
There seems to be a lot more biblical precedent to forgive, than the other way around, since we are all sinners and God forgave us and who are we to have a continuous critical mindset?
That's my take on it. ...
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