It requires some real assumptions to come up with most any developed doctrinal stance. The reason we fail to see eye to eye, in all probability, is our approach to the Bible is so different. I reject the hand in a glove, mathematical exactness, jigsaw puzzle, work it till it fits model. I rely instead on a reading it prayerfully while acknowledging the inadequacy of my intellect in apprehending eternal truth model. I ask the Holy spirit to reveal to me what I need to understand about a passage at any given time.
I've been down the 'you can't trust any translation, gimme more greek, use the magic decoder ring (keys)' avenue till it came out my ears. I reject it whole cloth...for myself.
This will do nothing but widen our gulf, but Satan cannot rebirth people with his seed because the idea is repugnant to the Holy Spirit. Or, in orther words, because I said so.
It's certain the only one here that really wants to belive the devil can get people born or him or born again of him is you. It's okay if you like to believe that somehow out of scripture.
Just leave the rest of us who don't believe in it out of it.
As I recall, it was you who started this thread by asking what we believe. I'm not sure it's accurate to say that I WANT to believe that the Devil has children, just that my reading of the scriptures convince me of it. As is obvious from this thread, I'm NOT the only one who believes it.
quote: But you can't prove that he births children in the literal sense you propose. And brings us to a Mexican standoff...
Evan -- what is the literal sense??
You have me thinking here, but I see myself born (flesh and blood) at one point in time, yet born again (of spirit), at a different time.
Question -- (an honest one) -- If we can be born of spirit, on the "good side" why is it so difficult to believe that the opposite can't be true?? I don't pretend to know all that "wrong seed" may entail, yet I am not willing to summarily just "cast it out as so much wrong doctrine" either.
If the new birth is spiritual, and cannot be seen, how can one say that it applies when God is involved, yet not when the devil is involved? Granted -- I am supposing that it is possible to have the "seed of the serpent", as well as supposing that it is possible to have "incorruptible seed"?
One of the things that I still hang onto, from the twi days - and what vpw *taught*, is that the adversary is a copier, and can do nothing original. Pharoah's court -- the magicians could only replicate the miracles done by Aaron, for one. And then there is the Nephilim -- Genesis, chapter 6 -- (sorry Roy -- your "angel seed" won't back this one up) is an example of what can happen in the physical realm. Who is to say what can happen in the spiritual??
So -- Eagle -- GSGeorge is not the only one who believes in these things, but I suspect that he, like myself -- are willing to entertain the possibility, and try and figure out some of this stuff, without promoting it as "neccesary for salvation". :)-->
quote: (sorry Roy -- your "angel seed" won't back this one up) is an example of what can happen in the physical realm. Who is to say what can happen in the spiritual??
God is to say by the way of Jesus Christ can say about spiritual things
about angel seed --If you think angels are spirits yes but I believe they are not
What is an angel- Messager of God
some mankind and others animal kind but mostly used as the animal kind which are called Great Whales in Gen 1
They are the ones in heaven but others have been mankind from time to time like Moses
So they train snakes to act like sticks in the physical world were Moses strick change for real by the power of God
What about Nephilim were they just mankind or are you talking about Enoch
The word angel in Enoch should of been translated Messager or children of Seth who were followers of God and children of men is children of Cain
quote: The word angel in Enoch should of been translated Messager or children of Seth who were followers of God and children of men is children of Cain
So children of Cain mix with children of Seth
So -- did this mixture result in someone like Goliath, in I Sam. 17?? Big guy like that, ya think he was the "product" of humans??
I don't think so, but that is me. :)-->
And yes -- angels are messengers, as you said, but I don't see the whale connection. Hebrews 1:14 says angels are ministering spirits. I can only agree with that definition, since I have heard no other.
What about Goliath He was a man like some Giants in TV Wresting that are about 8 foot tall
Mankind has in pass and will do it again make big men I know one name Al in SC that would make me look small he was about 7 foot 4 inches
Now it does not happen a lot but it happens
Cain children mixing with Seth children would be no differ than an believer son mixing with an unbelievers dauther
In Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
The word great sets the animal whale apart from other animals
why ?
Then the word Whales
H8577. tanniyn, tan-neen'; or tanniym (Ezek. 29 : 3), tan-neem'; intens. from the same as H8565; a marine or land monster, i.e. sea-serpent or jackal:--dragon, sea-monster, serpent, whale
This word is used in many ways and if you read then all you will see its talking about an animal but not an whale
After doing word studies and reading many verses and then long talks with God I saw that this was the begining of Animals that live in the heavens which God used for messagers from time to time
you're right about Strong's number 8577. What I don't understand -- is how you can equate this with angels?? Why does the word "great" before the word "whales" have any significance, when it comes to angels, and the spiritual realm??
According to I Samuel 17:4 -- Goliath was 6 cubits, and a span in height. A cubit is 21 to 25 inches, and a span is 10 1/2 inches.
_At the least_, he was close to 13 feet tall. Not normal -- in my humble opinion. :)-->
Actually, a cubit is the length from a man's elbow to his figertips, usually given as about 18 inches; an a span is the distance between the tip of the thumb and the tip of the pinky when the fingers are separated as much as possible, usually given as nine inches. So Goliath would be about 9'9", still quite large. (Of course a cubit and a span would both be larger on someone that tall -- and Goliath DID have six fingers on his hand! ;)-->)
The word great is not the word that tells us it an angel but it helps
Great whales or great animals is like saying this animal is king of animals above other in a way
Now we know that God set this animal to be great compair to other we need to find out why
An whale lives in the sea yes or no
Here that same Hebrew word out of the sea
used as serpent
Exo 7:9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Show a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a (serpent.)
10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a (serpent.)
12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became (serpents:)--> but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
This animal can go into the sea or live on land but this is not a whale
I know all you see so far is an animal but lets look more
Here some places its used as dragon
Psa 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the (dragon) shalt thou trample under feet.
Psa 148:7 Praise the LORD from the earth, ye (dragons,) and all deeps:
Some say here we are talking about the devil if so the devil was an angel
but lets go on
Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the (dragon) that is in the sea.
this sounds like what will happen in Revelation
Isa 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of (dragons,) where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes
This seems like the dragons are devils
Isa 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the (dragon?)
Jer 9:11 And I will make Jerusalem heaps, and a den of (dragons;)--> and I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant.
The list could go on but one must read all context to see this
But let me say that if you find one verse saying that the dragon is a devil and the same dragon of Revelation that we are talking about angels being animals
For there must be a word in Greek for the word dragon in Hebrew
that all my dear friends its up to you to either research more as you pray about it or not
The topic seemed to get around to the sond of God of Genesis 6. There is a great tape by John Schoenheit on that and another good book out of Ireland by Patrick Heron called "The Nephilim and the Pyramid of the Apocalypse". Schoenheit's tape should be listened to first. He is with CES.
quote: Actually, a cubit is the length from a man's elbow to his figertips, usually given as about 18 inches; an a span is the distance between the tip of the thumb and the tip of the pinky when the fingers are separated as much as possible, usually given as nine inches. So Goliath would be about 9'9", still quite large. (Of course a cubit and a span would both be larger on someone that tall -- and Goliath DID have six fingers on his hand!;)--> )
GSGeorge -- I got my figures from Bullinger's Bible, appendix 51. Meebe the measurement is different these days. :)-->
quote: The topic seemed to get around to the sons of God of Genesis 6. There is a great tape by John Schoenheit on that and another good book out of Ireland by Patrick Heron called "The Nephilim and the Pyramid of the Apocalypse".
The tape by John Schoenheit is the CES January/February 1991 bi-monthly tape entitled "The Sons of God of Genesis Six". If you want to check it out, you can get it HERE at CES. It really is a very good tape. :)-->
I sure its a good tape but I will never buy a tape from any group but if they post it or send it free by Email I will read
I did got a tape once on Gen from John Lynn because my understanding was differ to his I send mine free in a US mail but had to pay $20.00 for it after I left the Way but it was of no value
I have got a lot free tapes and books from time to time but will never buy one again
Roy -- it's a tape, and is not posted (text stuff) on any of their sites. However -- if you would like to hear it, I would be pleased to copy it for you, and send it your way. CES -- has a policy of always allowing the copying of their tapes, if it is used for educational purposes.
You qualify!! :)--> If you want to PT me with your home address, I'll get the high-speed dubber going, and you'll have it in no time flat. But -- it's your call. :)-->
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TheEvan
Who says Rom 10:9 is the formula for salvation? Why in all other places it leaves out the confession part? Does that make the 'confess with your mouth' part incorrect? I bring this up, because there are very nearly as many assumptions read into the WaySystem™ of salvation as there is to that curious doctrine of being "born of Satan's seed©".
It requires some real assumptions to come up with most any developed doctrinal stance. The reason we fail to see eye to eye, in all probability, is our approach to the Bible is so different. I reject the hand in a glove, mathematical exactness, jigsaw puzzle, work it till it fits model. I rely instead on a reading it prayerfully while acknowledging the inadequacy of my intellect in apprehending eternal truth model. I ask the Holy spirit to reveal to me what I need to understand about a passage at any given time.
I've been down the 'you can't trust any translation, gimme more greek, use the magic decoder ring (keys)' avenue till it came out my ears. I reject it whole cloth...for myself.
This will do nothing but widen our gulf, but Satan cannot rebirth people with his seed because the idea is repugnant to the Holy Spirit. Or, in orther words, because I said so.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I can't argue with that!
:)-->
George
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Eagle
GSG:
It's certain the only one here that really wants to belive the devil can get people born or him or born again of him is you. It's okay if you like to believe that somehow out of scripture.
Just leave the rest of us who don't believe in it out of it.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Eagle,
As I recall, it was you who started this thread by asking what we believe. I'm not sure it's accurate to say that I WANT to believe that the Devil has children, just that my reading of the scriptures convince me of it. As is obvious from this thread, I'm NOT the only one who believes it.
You, too, may believe what YOU choose to.
George
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dmiller
Evan -- what is the literal sense??
You have me thinking here, but I see myself born (flesh and blood) at one point in time, yet born again (of spirit), at a different time.
Question -- (an honest one) -- If we can be born of spirit, on the "good side" why is it so difficult to believe that the opposite can't be true?? I don't pretend to know all that "wrong seed" may entail, yet I am not willing to summarily just "cast it out as so much wrong doctrine" either.
If the new birth is spiritual, and cannot be seen, how can one say that it applies when God is involved, yet not when the devil is involved? Granted -- I am supposing that it is possible to have the "seed of the serpent", as well as supposing that it is possible to have "incorruptible seed"?
One of the things that I still hang onto, from the twi days - and what vpw *taught*, is that the adversary is a copier, and can do nothing original. Pharoah's court -- the magicians could only replicate the miracles done by Aaron, for one. And then there is the Nephilim -- Genesis, chapter 6 -- (sorry Roy -- your "angel seed" won't back this one up) is an example of what can happen in the physical realm. Who is to say what can happen in the spiritual??
So -- Eagle -- GSGeorge is not the only one who believes in these things, but I suspect that he, like myself -- are willing to entertain the possibility, and try and figure out some of this stuff, without promoting it as "neccesary for salvation".
:)-->
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year2027
God first
Beloved DMiller
You said
God is to say by the way of Jesus Christ can say about spiritual things
about angel seed --If you think angels are spirits yes but I believe they are not
What is an angel- Messager of God
some mankind and others animal kind but mostly used as the animal kind which are called Great Whales in Gen 1
They are the ones in heaven but others have been mankind from time to time like Moses
So they train snakes to act like sticks in the physical world were Moses strick change for real by the power of God
What about Nephilim were they just mankind or are you talking about Enoch
The word angel in Enoch should of been translated Messager or children of Seth who were followers of God and children of men is children of Cain
So children of Cain mix with children of Seth
Now the 120 years is not what most think
with love and an holy kiss Roy
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dmiller
So -- did this mixture result in someone like Goliath, in I Sam. 17?? Big guy like that, ya think he was the "product" of humans??
I don't think so, but that is me.
:)-->
And yes -- angels are messengers, as you said, but I don't see the whale connection. Hebrews 1:14 says angels are ministering spirits. I can only agree with that definition, since I have heard no other.
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year2027
God first
Beloved DMiller
What about Goliath He was a man like some Giants in TV Wresting that are about 8 foot tall
Mankind has in pass and will do it again make big men I know one name Al in SC that would make me look small he was about 7 foot 4 inches
Now it does not happen a lot but it happens
Cain children mixing with Seth children would be no differ than an believer son mixing with an unbelievers dauther
In Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
The word great sets the animal whale apart from other animals
why ?
Then the word Whales
H8577. tanniyn, tan-neen'; or tanniym (Ezek. 29 : 3), tan-neem'; intens. from the same as H8565; a marine or land monster, i.e. sea-serpent or jackal:--dragon, sea-monster, serpent, whale
This word is used in many ways and if you read then all you will see its talking about an animal but not an whale
After doing word studies and reading many verses and then long talks with God I saw that this was the begining of Animals that live in the heavens which God used for messagers from time to time
that all for now
with love and an holy kiss Roy
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dmiller
According to I Samuel 17:4 -- Goliath was 6 cubits, and a span in height. A cubit is 21 to 25 inches, and a span is 10 1/2 inches.
At the least, he was close to 13 feet tall. Not normal -- in my humble opinion.
:)-->
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dmiller
you're right about Strong's number 8577. What I don't understand -- is how you can equate this with angels?? Why does the word "great" before the word "whales" have any significance, when it comes to angels, and the spiritual realm??
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Goey
So I wouldn't expect too much in the way of a scriptural explanation. To question and doubt Roy is to question and doubt God.
In other words, "God" told Roy this, so a good scriptural/logical explanation is not really necessary (or very likely).
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GeorgeStGeorge
Actually, a cubit is the length from a man's elbow to his figertips, usually given as about 18 inches; an a span is the distance between the tip of the thumb and the tip of the pinky when the fingers are separated as much as possible, usually given as nine inches. So Goliath would be about 9'9", still quite large. (Of course a cubit and a span would both be larger on someone that tall -- and Goliath DID have six fingers on his hand!
;)-->)
George
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year2027
God first
Beloved DMiller and Goey
Ok I will try again
The word great is not the word that tells us it an angel but it helps
Great whales or great animals is like saying this animal is king of animals above other in a way
Now we know that God set this animal to be great compair to other we need to find out why
An whale lives in the sea yes or no
Here that same Hebrew word out of the sea
used as serpent
Exo 7:9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Show a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a (serpent.)
10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a (serpent.)
12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became (serpents
:)--> but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
This animal can go into the sea or live on land but this is not a whale
I know all you see so far is an animal but lets look more
Here some places its used as dragon
Psa 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the (dragon) shalt thou trample under feet.
Psa 148:7 Praise the LORD from the earth, ye (dragons,) and all deeps:
Some say here we are talking about the devil if so the devil was an angel
but lets go on
Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the (dragon) that is in the sea.
this sounds like what will happen in Revelation
Isa 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of (dragons,) where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes
This seems like the dragons are devils
Isa 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the (dragon?)
Jer 9:11 And I will make Jerusalem heaps, and a den of (dragons
;)--> and I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant.
The list could go on but one must read all context to see this
But let me say that if you find one verse saying that the dragon is a devil and the same dragon of Revelation that we are talking about angels being animals
For there must be a word in Greek for the word dragon in Hebrew
that all my dear friends its up to you to either research more as you pray about it or not
with love and an holy kiss Roy
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Eagle
GSG:
You are right about the thread. My apologies.
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Eagle
The topic seemed to get around to the sond of God of Genesis 6. There is a great tape by John Schoenheit on that and another good book out of Ireland by Patrick Heron called "The Nephilim and the Pyramid of the Apocalypse". Schoenheit's tape should be listened to first. He is with CES.
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dmiller
GSGeorge -- I got my figures from Bullinger's Bible, appendix 51. Meebe the measurement is different these days.
:)-->
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dmiller
The tape by John Schoenheit is the CES January/February 1991 bi-monthly tape entitled "The Sons of God of Genesis Six". If you want to check it out, you can get it HERE at CES. It really is a very good tape.
:)-->
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year2027
God first
Beloved All
I sure its a good tape but I will never buy a tape from any group but if they post it or send it free by Email I will read
I did got a tape once on Gen from John Lynn because my understanding was differ to his I send mine free in a US mail but had to pay $20.00 for it after I left the Way but it was of no value
I have got a lot free tapes and books from time to time but will never buy one again
with love and an holy kiss Roy
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GeorgeStGeorge
Accepted!
:)-->
George
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dmiller
Roy -- it's a tape, and is not posted (text stuff) on any of their sites. However -- if you would like to hear it, I would be pleased to copy it for you, and send it your way. CES -- has a policy of always allowing the copying of their tapes, if it is used for educational purposes.
You qualify!!
:)--> If you want to PT me with your home address, I'll get the high-speed dubber going, and you'll have it in no time flat. But -- it's your call. 
:)-->
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