Reading John's post reminded me of the wc couple who were planning their pregancy around the WAP class! Yep, they wanted to make sure the pregancy and delivery did not interfere with their ability to "move the word". God forbid a child should inconvenience their job! -->
The ministry itself serves as a second idol in the minds of many kool-aid drinkers left.
What was inapropriate about those scriptures oldies...specifically? ...It would appear that they speak of exactly what we witnessed in twi.
You don`t like galations...you don`t like the scriptures (from 11 peter?) that cw quoted...seems to me as if scriptures bug you and are considerd misaplied whenever they condemn or warn of the darkness practiced by wierwille and his ministry.
I guess what you are saying is that scriptures don`t count if they condemn wierwille and other men of the flesh....If they warn us to beware of the snares these predators lay...
quote:The only thing that kept TWI from already catching up to the Roman Catholic Church and its atrocities is the separation of church and state in our own government.
Catcup... time and opportunity, time and opportunity.
quote:I guess what you are saying is that scriptures don`t count if they condemn wierwille and other men of the flesh....If they warn us to beware of the snares these predators lay...
Rascal the ONLY scriptures that count in your book are the ones that give hefty judgments for sins of Wierwille and others.
You ignore the other scriptures about grace, mercy and forgiveness.
You like those condemning scriptures, cause they accentuate your finger-pointing agenda. Just remember, when you point your finger at someone, you point three back at yourself.
oooOOOOoooh Yet another idiom learned at the feet of the master!
Guess what son, that is crap too! He taught you that so that anyone would be uncomfortable pointing out the sin he was endulging in.
It ain`t ME pointing the fingers of blame and condemnation fellah, it`s the very scriptures that wierwille hid behind while endulging himself, that paint him the vile sacreligious predator that he was...and warn us clearly to stay away from any that manifest his fruit..
Lol...yeah but usually only when YOU, Oldies are trying to cover the evil up....Only when YOU, Oldies want to excuse the evil...Only when YOU, oldies want to blame those assaulted...only when YOU attempt to negate the pain and suffering endured.....so yeah I guess that would constitue a rather large block of time ..
However IN my defense...I DO take time to post on the weinie roast thread too...and wierwilles sins have yet to be brought up there by me....It would appear that you are mistaken about the sum total of my posting focus and ability...lol mistaken.
My my, how DID this thread get derailed into a rascal is a stupid head topic...again.
(warning...attempted dragging of thread back on topic)
Twi worships an idol....I think that the examination of the fruit in the ministry as well as the fruit in the lives of those who still attempt to practice the correct ministry aproved rituals, relegate the whole belief system into the idolotry catagory....there isn`t any other WAY they could have disintigrated so spectacularly otherwise.
Now that I look at them, it's encouraging to see grammar like "me and you". Me and you is accepted language, but it never use to fly in Way written materials, edited for the more correct "you and I". Oh my. Next thing it'll be "y'all".
The Way doctrine forms an adjunct to true Christian teaching, IMO. Rather than a whole synergistic view of all the elements of believing in and following Christ, it offers a piece of it - the bible - as "the revealed Word of God", worthy of study and belief. It's the message(s) within that tell of the reality however. Most of the bible is a history book - what happened and to some degree what it meant. The Way chooses to view it as if it's frozen in time.
The "written logos" has a purpose. To focus solely on it is akin to becoming like, say, monks who hole up in the hills somewhere, celibate and silent for a lifetime and never uttering a word, in order to find true inner communion with God, a "holy" life. That lifestyle takes a part of a godly life and eliminates all other aspects in favor of the a few. Likewise with the Way, IMO. It accounts for the disfunctional family environemnt that they produce. God place His "logos" above His name. Do we worship the package or the contents?
"But oldies, TWI hasn't been around nearly as long as the RC church. Just give TWI time to catch up!"
The only thing that kept TWI from already catching up to the Roman Catholic Church and its atrocities is the separation of church and state in our own government.
And the Bush administration is doing all they can to change that.
The power of God is in the work of Jesus...in his miracles while he walked in the flesh, in his crucifixion, in his ascension and in his outpouring.
Rejecting any part of Jesus' work is rejecting the power of God.
TWI rejects the outpouring first and foremost. By teaching that Jesus is absent, twi is rejecting the outpouring. The bible is very clear that Jesus sent the Comforter.
I agree. Furthermore, the gospels and writings of Paul and John specifically give reference to the Holy Spirit as bieng our guide into the truth. TWI bieng so biblically oreinted had to be acutely aware of this. TWI's substitute for the HS became there own dogma, agenda and doctrinal "private interpetations"
The spirit of this ministry was wacko from the begining.
The "Word of God" is sharper than any two edged sword, but to do what? To discern the thoughts and intents of ones heart and seperate between soul (ones self) and spirit (conscience etc)
Twi never bought into this concept. They threw the curveball "for our learning" and used the term to throw out valuable application of scripture towards one self. I would make the arguement the leadership did it for there own convience. The scriptures were designed to probe our motives, and assist us in fixing up our lives. They therefore were quilty of the same thing that they accused others of: wrongly dividing the word of God. I agree with your idolatry concept. It is as though they thought the Bible itself was their salvation. Interesting that the Lord ran into the same cult thought with the pharisees, when he indictated to them that they trust in Moses, yet it was Moses that judged them. I think the same thing is applicable to TWI.
I also think it was horrible that they threw out the concept of sincerity. Interesting , isnt it, that God has never seemed "sincere" about being a vanguard of this horrible doctrine.
I think it says in the Psalms to the just he will show him self just, to the pure he will show himself pure to the unpure he will show himself unpure. To the insincere he will show himself insincere? I think so. This is God's sense of perfect justice.
TWI always taught that the written word takes the place of the absent Christ. Christ is not here in person, so the bible is here to take his place. We are to respect the bible as treat it as God's Word, just as if Jesus were here speaking it. Doesn't matter who speaks it, it's God's Word.
I disagree oldie. The substitue Jesus left behind was the holy spirit, as a guide into all truth. Twi also knew this, because there were many scriptural references which said so. Of course we should respect the Bible, I agree with that. If it doesn't matter who speaks it, then why not rely on every doctrine from every "Christian organization" who quotes it and be thoroughly confused?
The problem I had with the "the holy spirit is a guide unto all truth" belief is,
(1) who's to say that it's "the holy spirit" that is really teaching you, and not your own intuition, or another man, and
(2) You say "the holy spirit" is teaching you the truth, but what happens if what "the holy spirit teaches you" CONTRADICTS what the bible says, then where to you go from there?
Do you negate the written word, and rather go with "what the holy spirit teaches you"?
Moreover, what if "the holy spirit teaches me" something different than what "the holy spirit teaches you", and our teachings contradict each other.
quote:(1) who's to say that it's "the holy spirit" that is really teaching you, and not your own intuition, or another man, and
Learning the answer to that comes with time and experience, imo.
quote:(2) You say "the holy spirit" is teaching you the truth, but what happens if what "the holy spirit teaches you" CONTRADICTS what the bible says, then where to you go from there?
Maybe the problem isn't with your (rhetorical)holy spirit, but your understanding of the bible. ;)-->
I think you (rhetorical) understand the bible to the depth that you are able to and as you mature so does your ability to see the scriptures in different lights and depths. (Also in light of TWIt-free eyes)
But didnt Jesus say (and I am paraphrasing) "If any man will to do the will of my father he shall know of the doctrine?"
Your comments:
Moreover, what if "the holy spirit teaches me" something different than what "the holy spirit teaches you"?
Ya see where that leaves us?
The fact is oldie, that the holy spirit may well be teaching you something different than he is teaching me. That doesnt have to leave us in contradiction because we are different people. certainly there is common ground. Still, because of our differences, I believe God is big enough to give us all a little different reflection of his glory.
Certainly in life we can try and fail with God because we make mistakes and can misapply his word and things. Still, that is the process of learning. (And not ever learning as TWI would leave one to believe) New experiences require new application.You know the Apostle Paul in Phillipians indicated that he strove for that "better perfection." You cant "can" the Bible oldie because we learn along the way. Personally, I think that God would rather have us try to learn more and fail along the way. This is how we learn to apply the word of God. If it were not so Oldie, we would not need an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
With respect to TWI doctrine, you can count that a learning experience also oldie. There are some in here that use it as an excuse to walk away from God. There are some that use it to move on and count it as a part of there knowledge of the Lord. (The expereince I mean) I think the 2nd choice is wise.
The problem I had with TWI, oldie, is that I always felt it limited God. You cannot "outgrow" God.
I think you (rhetorical) understand the bible to the depth that you are able to and as you mature so does your ability to see the scriptures in different lights and depths.
Learning the answer to that comes with time and experience, imo.
I think so too Belle. :)-->
It's no different than going to school and learning a trade and then going out and applying it.
At least thats my opinion. The more you practice "your trade", the better you get at it.
The problem I had with the "the holy spirit is a guide unto all truth" belief is,
(1) who's to say that it's "the holy spirit" that is really teaching you, and not your own intuition, or another man, and
(2) You say "the holy spirit" is teaching you the truth, but what happens if what "the holy spirit teaches you" CONTRADICTS what the bible says, then where to you go from there?
Do you negate the written word, and rather go with "what the holy spirit teaches you"?
Moreover, what if "the holy spirit teaches me" something different than what "the holy spirit teaches you", and our teachings contradict each other.
Ya see where that leaves us?
so OM, how do you explain Paul's action in Acts 16 in contrast to the immediately preceding discussion in Acts 15, further expounded in Galatians 2 and 3. What is GOD trying to teach you, and me, and us, there???
Your confidence in God's Spirit is rather appalling........
quote:With respect to TWI doctrine, you can count that a learning experience also oldie. There are some in here that use it as an excuse to walk away from God. There are some that use it to move on and count it as a part of there knowledge of the Lord. (The expereince I mean) I think the 2nd choice is wise.
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Belle
Reading John's post reminded me of the wc couple who were planning their pregancy around the WAP class! Yep, they wanted to make sure the pregancy and delivery did not interfere with their ability to "move the word". God forbid a child should inconvenience their job!
-->
The ministry itself serves as a second idol in the minds of many kool-aid drinkers left.
(BTW, great topic, CW!)
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oldiesman
Coolwaters, I think you're misapplying those scriptures. Gee you're bold as brass.
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rascal
What was inapropriate about those scriptures oldies...specifically? ...It would appear that they speak of exactly what we witnessed in twi.
You don`t like galations...you don`t like the scriptures (from 11 peter?) that cw quoted...seems to me as if scriptures bug you and are considerd misaplied whenever they condemn or warn of the darkness practiced by wierwille and his ministry.
I guess what you are saying is that scriptures don`t count if they condemn wierwille and other men of the flesh....If they warn us to beware of the snares these predators lay...
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CoolWaters
Coming from someone (you, OM) who defends pedophiles, rapists, wife beaters, idolators, murderers, etc...
Well, it really doesn't matter what you think about the bible at all...
Because according to the bible itself, you cannot know the things of the spirit.
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socks
Catcup... time and opportunity, time and opportunity.
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oldiesman
You ignore the other scriptures about grace, mercy and forgiveness.
You like those condemning scriptures, cause they accentuate your finger-pointing agenda. Just remember, when you point your finger at someone, you point three back at yourself.
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rascal
oooOOOOoooh Yet another idiom learned at the feet of the master!
Guess what son, that is crap too! He taught you that so that anyone would be uncomfortable pointing out the sin he was endulging in.
It ain`t ME pointing the fingers of blame and condemnation fellah, it`s the very scriptures that wierwille hid behind while endulging himself, that paint him the vile sacreligious predator that he was...and warn us clearly to stay away from any that manifest his fruit..
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oldiesman
You can't stop talking about Wierwille's sins and transgressions.
They dominate your thinking. ...
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CoolWaters
Ummmmmmmm...OM...you're so lost and confused that you've forgotten that this is an EX twi message board with the purpose of exposing such things.
Duh.
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rascal
Lol...yeah but usually only when YOU, Oldies are trying to cover the evil up....Only when YOU, Oldies want to excuse the evil...Only when YOU, oldies want to blame those assaulted...only when YOU attempt to negate the pain and suffering endured.....so yeah I guess that would constitue a rather large block of time ..
However IN my defense...I DO take time to post on the weinie roast thread too...and wierwilles sins have yet to be brought up there by me....It would appear that you are mistaken about the sum total of my posting focus and ability...lol mistaken.
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rascal
My my, how DID this thread get derailed into a rascal is a stupid head topic...again.
(warning...attempted dragging of thread back on topic)
Twi worships an idol....I think that the examination of the fruit in the ministry as well as the fruit in the lives of those who still attempt to practice the correct ministry aproved rituals, relegate the whole belief system into the idolotry catagory....there isn`t any other WAY they could have disintigrated so spectacularly otherwise.
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socks
CW, those missing lines are:
"He clothed them with spirit"
"And now the Word's written for me and you"
"More than silver and gold"
Now that I look at them, it's encouraging to see grammar like "me and you". Me and you is accepted language, but it never use to fly in Way written materials, edited for the more correct "you and I". Oh my. Next thing it'll be "y'all".
The Way doctrine forms an adjunct to true Christian teaching, IMO. Rather than a whole synergistic view of all the elements of believing in and following Christ, it offers a piece of it - the bible - as "the revealed Word of God", worthy of study and belief. It's the message(s) within that tell of the reality however. Most of the bible is a history book - what happened and to some degree what it meant. The Way chooses to view it as if it's frozen in time.
The "written logos" has a purpose. To focus solely on it is akin to becoming like, say, monks who hole up in the hills somewhere, celibate and silent for a lifetime and never uttering a word, in order to find true inner communion with God, a "holy" life. That lifestyle takes a part of a godly life and eliminates all other aspects in favor of the a few. Likewise with the Way, IMO. It accounts for the disfunctional family environemnt that they produce. God place His "logos" above His name. Do we worship the package or the contents?
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My3Cents
And the Bush administration is doing all they can to change that.
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Radar OReilly
DISCLAIMER:
-->....temporary derailment!
My3Cents!
Just a note, have I told you lately that I think you are brilliant and I think you add more to Greasespot than many people realize?
radar
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JustThinking
My3cents,
Yeah, it's a good thing he's the only one on either side of the political spectrum to stick his nose into religious affairs.
JT
-->
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sky4it
coolwaters:
your comment:
The power of God is in the work of Jesus...in his miracles while he walked in the flesh, in his crucifixion, in his ascension and in his outpouring.
Rejecting any part of Jesus' work is rejecting the power of God.
TWI rejects the outpouring first and foremost. By teaching that Jesus is absent, twi is rejecting the outpouring. The bible is very clear that Jesus sent the Comforter.
I agree. Furthermore, the gospels and writings of Paul and John specifically give reference to the Holy Spirit as bieng our guide into the truth. TWI bieng so biblically oreinted had to be acutely aware of this. TWI's substitute for the HS became there own dogma, agenda and doctrinal "private interpetations"
The spirit of this ministry was wacko from the begining.
The "Word of God" is sharper than any two edged sword, but to do what? To discern the thoughts and intents of ones heart and seperate between soul (ones self) and spirit (conscience etc)
Twi never bought into this concept. They threw the curveball "for our learning" and used the term to throw out valuable application of scripture towards one self. I would make the arguement the leadership did it for there own convience. The scriptures were designed to probe our motives, and assist us in fixing up our lives. They therefore were quilty of the same thing that they accused others of: wrongly dividing the word of God. I agree with your idolatry concept. It is as though they thought the Bible itself was their salvation. Interesting that the Lord ran into the same cult thought with the pharisees, when he indictated to them that they trust in Moses, yet it was Moses that judged them. I think the same thing is applicable to TWI.
I also think it was horrible that they threw out the concept of sincerity. Interesting , isnt it, that God has never seemed "sincere" about being a vanguard of this horrible doctrine.
I think it says in the Psalms to the just he will show him self just, to the pure he will show himself pure to the unpure he will show himself unpure. To the insincere he will show himself insincere? I think so. This is God's sense of perfect justice.
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sky4it
oldie:
your comment:
TWI always taught that the written word takes the place of the absent Christ. Christ is not here in person, so the bible is here to take his place. We are to respect the bible as treat it as God's Word, just as if Jesus were here speaking it. Doesn't matter who speaks it, it's God's Word.
I disagree oldie. The substitue Jesus left behind was the holy spirit, as a guide into all truth. Twi also knew this, because there were many scriptural references which said so. Of course we should respect the Bible, I agree with that. If it doesn't matter who speaks it, then why not rely on every doctrine from every "Christian organization" who quotes it and be thoroughly confused?
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oldiesman
Sky:
The problem I had with the "the holy spirit is a guide unto all truth" belief is,
(1) who's to say that it's "the holy spirit" that is really teaching you, and not your own intuition, or another man, and
(2) You say "the holy spirit" is teaching you the truth, but what happens if what "the holy spirit teaches you" CONTRADICTS what the bible says, then where to you go from there?
Do you negate the written word, and rather go with "what the holy spirit teaches you"?
Moreover, what if "the holy spirit teaches me" something different than what "the holy spirit teaches you", and our teachings contradict each other.
Ya see where that leaves us?
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Belle
Learning the answer to that comes with time and experience, imo.
Maybe the problem isn't with your (rhetorical)holy spirit, but your understanding of the bible.
;)-->
I think you (rhetorical) understand the bible to the depth that you are able to and as you mature so does your ability to see the scriptures in different lights and depths. (Also in light of TWIt-free eyes)
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sky4it
oldie:
But didnt Jesus say (and I am paraphrasing) "If any man will to do the will of my father he shall know of the doctrine?"
Your comments:
Moreover, what if "the holy spirit teaches me" something different than what "the holy spirit teaches you"?
Ya see where that leaves us?
The fact is oldie, that the holy spirit may well be teaching you something different than he is teaching me. That doesnt have to leave us in contradiction because we are different people. certainly there is common ground. Still, because of our differences, I believe God is big enough to give us all a little different reflection of his glory.
Certainly in life we can try and fail with God because we make mistakes and can misapply his word and things. Still, that is the process of learning. (And not ever learning as TWI would leave one to believe) New experiences require new application.You know the Apostle Paul in Phillipians indicated that he strove for that "better perfection." You cant "can" the Bible oldie because we learn along the way. Personally, I think that God would rather have us try to learn more and fail along the way. This is how we learn to apply the word of God. If it were not so Oldie, we would not need an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
With respect to TWI doctrine, you can count that a learning experience also oldie. There are some in here that use it as an excuse to walk away from God. There are some that use it to move on and count it as a part of there knowledge of the Lord. (The expereince I mean) I think the 2nd choice is wise.
The problem I had with TWI, oldie, is that I always felt it limited God. You cannot "outgrow" God.
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sky4it
belle:
your comments:
I think you (rhetorical) understand the bible to the depth that you are able to and as you mature so does your ability to see the scriptures in different lights and depths.
Learning the answer to that comes with time and experience, imo.
I think so too Belle.
:)-->
It's no different than going to school and learning a trade and then going out and applying it.
At least thats my opinion. The more you practice "your trade", the better you get at it.
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alfakat
so OM, how do you explain Paul's action in Acts 16 in contrast to the immediately preceding discussion in Acts 15, further expounded in Galatians 2 and 3. What is GOD trying to teach you, and me, and us, there???
Your confidence in God's Spirit is rather appalling........
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oldiesman
Sky, I can't argue with that assessment.
Thanks for your input.
:)-->
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sky4it
oldie:
God Bless yah man. If we have one consolation, it is that our Lord is stedfast in making us better people. He never stops loving us.
:)-->
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