Coolwaters - Bibliolatry is the term I use for their mind set.
It was John Lyxn who first started with the concept (when he was booted in 1988?) of the "Absent Christ in TWI". He made pretty powerful and valid points. Watch Athletes of the Spirit sometime if you can stomach it to see a prime example of Jesus left out of that whole pathetic production. This revelation by JL was disturbing to those of us who were caught in the middle listening to both sides of the battles in the so called "fog years". It rocked our comfortable world.
Though I stayed in TWI for over a decade longer, I have come to believe TWI indeed left Jesus out of TWI in so many ways causing idolatry to ensue. In fact we were taught that to even use the word "Jesus" was wrong. You were reprimanded sharply or thrown out, labled as possessed or an idolator if you dared teach, or speak using Jesus instead of saying "Jesus Christ" or at the very least "Christ".
And then there was the teaching that there was a BIG devil spirit named Jesus, the real catalyst behind all the popular Christian religions of the day.
Personally I think it was rubbish. I even did a "Research Paper" called "The Names and Titles of Jesus Christ" while in the Corps so I studied this quite a lot back then and even slanted my viewpoint to substantiate TWI's reasoning for not using the name Jesus in our day and time.
(It represented the human earthly man who was humiliated and killed rather than the risen Christ Jesus, ya know. Therefore we use Jesus Christ instead of Jesus. Again rubbish.)
Since being away from the influence of TWI I believe these are just names when it really comes down to it. What is believed about the man is more important than what name you use for him. For me now using the term Jesus and thinking about him from a gospel viewpoint gives me more of a sense of him as a savior than the risen christ does. (What blasphemy!). I mean, I like the risen "sandals in the sky" dude a whole lot. But I am still human, down here where he once was, dealing with humanity in all our flaws.
I think the epistles have been over rated and the gospels under rated in TWI. Today I get more out of reading a real life story about some of the things he did as a human than I do in reading some of the deeeeeeep truths of the structure of Ephesians or Corinthians (Yawn). (Again what blasphemy.)
And what to make of this awful statement that was oft quoted in TWI:
"The Bible takes the place of the Absent Christ today"
You all know this already but here's how I see it: worship of the bible is like worshipping Jesus, by twi's rationale. There is no difference. The bible is the "written word". Jesus is "the word in the flesh". They are both "the word."
TWI always taught that the written word takes the place of the absent Christ. Christ is not here in person, so the bible is here to take his place. We are to respect the bible as treat it as God's Word, just as if Jesus were here speaking it. Doesn't matter who speaks it, it's God's Word.
I do think a case can be made that twi worships the bible ... but whether that's idolatry is another matter, since "God and his Word" are one in the same (John 1:1).
I still think this denigrates Jesus Christ. There is no humility taught. "We are the greatest people who ever lived because we KNOW THE WORD.
Okay. That nicely bound book with the gold leaf trim did NOT suffer and bleed and die for me. Nikita Khrushchev, premier of the Soviet Union during the height of the cold war, memorized the four Gospels. He could quote any given verse accurately (I never actually heard him, but that's what I've been told). He did not ever accept Jesus Christ as his lord and savior. He never admitted to being a sinner, to being helpless against the wiles of the devil, to NEEDING a savior.
So all that memorization (retemorization?) served him for naught. He died unsaved. Period.
Do I think the Word takes the place of the risen Christ? Actually in PFAL days, for many unfortunate souls VPW took the place of both. Kinda like old Nikita memorizing the gospels, all for naught. IMO.
quote:hoooo boy n twi used to make fun of the catholics and other denominations for their rituals....
WHATEVER anyone says about possible idolatry in TWI, goes double, triple, quadruple, for the Roman Catholic church. Whatever evils TWI has done, the RC church beats them 10 times over.
quote: WHATEVER anyone says about possible idolatry in TWI, goes double, triple, quadruple, for the Roman Catholic church. Whatever evils TWI has done, the RC church beats them 10 times over.
It's not nice to compare...we just share. That's what I tell me kids.
Let's see...doesn't the bible itself say something about graven images...?
quote:
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Exodus 20:4 KJV
Oh yeah...
I forgotted...
The Old Testament doesn't really meaning anything...
It's just there for our learning...
The Epistles, however, say that an idol is nothing...and we can partake of anything...that all things are lawful...
Which is exactly what twi has been trying to get people to learn all of these years...
I have to say though, that I think that you were wrong about birth control...Honstly now...who needed it when there were ALWAYS abortions for those occasional *oopsies*???
CW I believe that you are right....I think it was a very subtle trap....who would have guessed that the scriptures themselves could become an object of idolotry?
Amazing what DIDN`T bother some peoples consciences eh?
"The bible is the "written word". Jesus is "the word in the flesh". They are both "the word."
TWI always taught that the written word takes the place of the absent Christ. Christ is not here in person, so the bible is here to take his place. "
Who (outside of TWI's twisted doctrine) says Christ is absent? Is it not "Christ in you the hope of glory" And if it is - then Christ is not absent - he is present inside you.
Additionally,
"I do think a case can be made that twi worships the bible ... but whether that's idolatry is another matter, since "God and his Word" are one in the same (John 1:1)."
Now you are arguing for the trinity. If God and his word are literally one, and Jesus was literally the word made manifest in the flesh, then Jesus and God are literally one and viola, you have the trinity. That being the case, worshipping Jesus is no more "sin" than worshipping the Bible.
Somehow, I find it difficult to believe God's desire was for people to worship the Bible.
Well, I am not sure about each individual person's state of mind concerning worship or idolatry no more than I can be sure about a member of the Catholic Church. I am less critical of others religious choices since being kicked out of TWI in 2000. Who am I to judge? I am sure I have my own personal "idolatries" in life. Perhaps I am a "workaholator" at times. :D-->
All I can do is speak of my own experience and let others decide for themselves.
But I will say that I have seen leaders and non leaders in TWI who put the "Word" before ANYTHING including their own children and families, before their job, before being able to provide a decent living, even before their own health in some instances.
They justified it because they heard the echoes in their minds of such ridiculous statements as
"It's The Word!, The Word!, and NOTHING BUT The Word!!"
and
"We have NO FRIENDS when it comes to The Word."
and
"The Word is the (Way) Ministry and the (Way) Ministry is The Word."
(C'mon, you know darn good and well that the parenthetical "Way Ministry" was implied strongly. No argument is possible there.)
Heck, I honestly think that some hard core ones I was around were so "Word brainwashed" that they put the Word before God. Yes, it is possible to do, don't kid yourself.
We were taught so vigoriously that Jesus was not God, but an human being that when he ascended to the right hand of God, many still think he is this human being. Paul says he is a quickening spirit, right now. I Corinth 15:45
So, if Christ is a quickening spirit, with all power and all authority and he is in us, Christ in us, the hope of glory, then he is not absent, but very much present, manifesting himself, thru us, as we believe what he said and also believe what the Word of God says about him.
Little note: After pentecost, with Jesus gone to heaven, the twelve and the 70 and even more and more believers walked performing miracles on a daily basis and guess what? There were no church epistles or gospels around for them to read.
"But oldies, TWI hasn't been around nearly as long as the RC church. Just give TWI time to catch up!"
The only thing that kept TWI from already catching up to the Roman Catholic Church and its atrocities is the separation of church and state in our own government.
The reason the RC church could conduct inquisitions was the blending of head of church and state.
What would have kept LCM from running his own inquisition?
"Some of us would gladly execute you..."
He made it very clear that if he had his way, anyone he decided to accuse of being homosexual would have been EXECUTED. And GLADLY at that.
The only thing separating The Way International and the Roman Church when it conducted inquisitions is simply time and geographical location.
The only thing that prevents it is our form of government.
You think they've changed their minds on the issue since LCM is gone?
Bad publicity and stings to their pocketbook are the only things keeping that cult in check.
The murderous attitude is still lurking beneath the surface.
How does one know they are "worshipping" something, as opposed to loving, respecting, etc. etc.?
Since we are talking about the bible, I think it right to let the bible do the defining.
If one does a search of the bible for the word "worship", one will find it used 198 times in 188 verses...according to my search results from bibleontheweb.com (this includes results for "worshipped", "worshippers", "worshipping", and "worshippeth"...and I'm not going to take the time to separate it all).
For the most part, when the bible talks of worshipping anything there are two associated acts: bowing down and sacrificing.
The lyrics of twi's "God-breathed Word" are absolutely about bowing down.
As for sacrificing, twi has sacrificed many, many humans to their idol. Beginning with little children all the way to the aged.
TWI has always bragged that they have no friends when it comes to 'the word'...even to the point of rejecting the true friend of Jesus.
John R is right when he points out that twi has always rejected the very idea of Jesus...that twi has gone as far as saying that there is a 'devil spirit' named Jesus.
TWI has to admit to the resurrection of Jesus so that they can get in on that grace and have a season of the flesh...
But twi will damn anybody to hell for even mentioning the cross...so much is twi against the cross that twi bragged to all the world that when twi bought churches from other denominations, the first thing twi did was remove the cross from atop the steeples...
And I know how proud twi was of doing so...I was there for the desecration of the chapel on the Emporia campus.
This would not be any big deal to me normally...
People can believe what they want to believe...
But twi is deceitful and is using a form of godliness for their own pleasures.
TWI is also this aptly described in the bible:
quote:
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. II Timothy 3:1-7 KJV
And here:
quote:
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. II Peter 2:1-3 KJV
And here:
quote:
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: II Peter 2:12-15 KJV
And on and on throughout the rest of II Peter and on into Jude where twi is summed up quite nicely.
The power of God is in the work of Jesus...in his miracles while he walked in the flesh, in his crucifixion, in his ascension and in his outpouring.
Rejecting any part of Jesus' work is rejecting the power of God.
TWI rejects the outpouring first and foremost. By teaching that Jesus is absent, twi is rejecting the outpouring. The bible is very clear that Jesus sent the Comforter.
TWI rejects the trinity, therefore rejecting what even Jesus said about himself. As OM pointed out so well, twi muddies the waters of truth to fit their need to be idolatrous.
TWI rejects the cross. TWI needs to be their own saviors.
Again, none of this would be so bothersome if TWI was being honest about these things.
But, as can be seen here, twi touts the bible, and, later on that same page, twi states, "The Way is a fellowship of the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the manifestation of the more abundant life."
Double-minded, lying, idolatrous...
Even unto suing other churches and other peoples who follow Jesus, the only True Way, twi rejects Jesus.
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Georgio Jessio
I love the choreography on "How Many Do you know". Looks like it took minutes to learn!
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igotout
Coolwaters - Bibliolatry is the term I use for their mind set.
It was John Lyxn who first started with the concept (when he was booted in 1988?) of the "Absent Christ in TWI". He made pretty powerful and valid points. Watch Athletes of the Spirit sometime if you can stomach it to see a prime example of Jesus left out of that whole pathetic production. This revelation by JL was disturbing to those of us who were caught in the middle listening to both sides of the battles in the so called "fog years". It rocked our comfortable world.
Though I stayed in TWI for over a decade longer, I have come to believe TWI indeed left Jesus out of TWI in so many ways causing idolatry to ensue. In fact we were taught that to even use the word "Jesus" was wrong. You were reprimanded sharply or thrown out, labled as possessed or an idolator if you dared teach, or speak using Jesus instead of saying "Jesus Christ" or at the very least "Christ".
And then there was the teaching that there was a BIG devil spirit named Jesus, the real catalyst behind all the popular Christian religions of the day.
Personally I think it was rubbish. I even did a "Research Paper" called "The Names and Titles of Jesus Christ" while in the Corps so I studied this quite a lot back then and even slanted my viewpoint to substantiate TWI's reasoning for not using the name Jesus in our day and time.
(It represented the human earthly man who was humiliated and killed rather than the risen Christ Jesus, ya know. Therefore we use Jesus Christ instead of Jesus. Again rubbish.)
Since being away from the influence of TWI I believe these are just names when it really comes down to it. What is believed about the man is more important than what name you use for him. For me now using the term Jesus and thinking about him from a gospel viewpoint gives me more of a sense of him as a savior than the risen christ does. (What blasphemy!). I mean, I like the risen "sandals in the sky" dude a whole lot. But I am still human, down here where he once was, dealing with humanity in all our flaws.
I think the epistles have been over rated and the gospels under rated in TWI. Today I get more out of reading a real life story about some of the things he did as a human than I do in reading some of the deeeeeeep truths of the structure of Ephesians or Corinthians (Yawn). (Again what blasphemy.)
And what to make of this awful statement that was oft quoted in TWI:
"The Bible takes the place of the Absent Christ today"
How much more clear could it be?
As Penn & Teller say...... Bull....*!
John Richeson
Tampa,FL
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A la prochaine
Coolwaters,
I just clicked on your link to TWI's idol/fountain picture. I just had shivers go up and down my spine.
:o-->
What a dead place.
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oldiesman
You all know this already but here's how I see it: worship of the bible is like worshipping Jesus, by twi's rationale. There is no difference. The bible is the "written word". Jesus is "the word in the flesh". They are both "the word."
TWI always taught that the written word takes the place of the absent Christ. Christ is not here in person, so the bible is here to take his place. We are to respect the bible as treat it as God's Word, just as if Jesus were here speaking it. Doesn't matter who speaks it, it's God's Word.
I do think a case can be made that twi worships the bible ... but whether that's idolatry is another matter, since "God and his Word" are one in the same (John 1:1).
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pjroberge
TWI is not only into idolatry, but the fruit of this idolatry is the operation of witchcraft within the group by many members.
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Catcup
"Let the prophets all know,
We rejoice at the word
(Unintelligible to me) it's silver and gold."
Which prophets?
There are none left at TWI. They were defamed and dispatched years before.
To me, this is an insult leveled at those who warned them of their idolatry, and were ignored, and persecuted.
They worship a glittering image of what they believe to be a solid truth.
It is merely a mirage in the desert of deceit.
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rascal
Yup...idolotry...and all of the accompanying rituals that make you FEEL like you are doing something spiritual.
Start each day 30 min. in the word.
30 min in sit for the ministry
witnessing x number of hours
each week.
tithe 15 percent first fruits.
attend fellowship as many times
as offered.
remove all debt
Any sin
currently recognised by your
immediate leadership...
follow
orders implicitly leadership
recomends m&a family members be
be they children or aging
parents...syblings..spouses.
take all classes offered.
THEN and ONLY then ... will you be worthey to recieve from God...
THEN and ONLY then will you have the strength and capability to defeat satan.
hoooo boy n twi used to make fun of the catholics and other denominations for their rituals....
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Watered Garden
I still think this denigrates Jesus Christ. There is no humility taught. "We are the greatest people who ever lived because we KNOW THE WORD.
Okay. That nicely bound book with the gold leaf trim did NOT suffer and bleed and die for me. Nikita Khrushchev, premier of the Soviet Union during the height of the cold war, memorized the four Gospels. He could quote any given verse accurately (I never actually heard him, but that's what I've been told). He did not ever accept Jesus Christ as his lord and savior. He never admitted to being a sinner, to being helpless against the wiles of the devil, to NEEDING a savior.
So all that memorization (retemorization?) served him for naught. He died unsaved. Period.
Do I think the Word takes the place of the risen Christ? Actually in PFAL days, for many unfortunate souls VPW took the place of both. Kinda like old Nikita memorizing the gospels, all for naught. IMO.
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oldiesman
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rascal
Now THERES something to brag about....*least we weren`t as bad as them ole catholicks*....pat pat patcherself onna back.
It`s the RITUALS and our presumptive arrogance that I was addressing silly!
We NEEDED the rituals to FEEL like we were doing something special...because the practicing idolotry left us feeling shallow and empty...
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A la prochaine
OM,
It's not nice to compare...we just share. That's what I tell me kids.
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Belle
Dadgummit, Rascal! Don't you get it??
At least our leadership only rapes women and has heterosexual sexual harrassment!
At least we only worship men from our modern time and the Bible, but that can be completely rationalized, so it doesn't count!
At least we don't tell people NOT to use birth control...in fact, we DEMAND it.
We don't have confessionals, our leadership has their heads so far up our a$$ we don't need them.
We don't publish lists of who gives how much for the rest of the church to see, we track those things privately.
We don't worship the dead, in fact we do everything we can to prevent people from visiting the area where their dead loved ones are buried.
We're light years ahead of the RC's spiritually. How dare you compare us to the catholic religion?!?!?!
;)--> 
;)--> 
;)-->
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shazdancer
But oldies, TWI hasn't been around nearly as long as the RC church. Just give TWI time to catch up!
Shaz
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CoolWaters
Let's see...doesn't the bible itself say something about graven images...?
Oh yeah...
I forgotted...
The Old Testament doesn't really meaning anything...
It's just there for our learning...
The Epistles, however, say that an idol is nothing...and we can partake of anything...that all things are lawful...
Which is exactly what twi has been trying to get people to learn all of these years...
People are FREE!
Free to do any dam thing they want to do...
So long as it does not bother one's conscience...
Doesn't anybody actually read the bible anymore?
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rascal
Aww man, I`m sorry belle, I stand corrected....
I have to say though, that I think that you were wrong about birth control...Honstly now...who needed it when there were ALWAYS abortions for those occasional *oopsies*???
CW I believe that you are right....I think it was a very subtle trap....who would have guessed that the scriptures themselves could become an object of idolotry?
Amazing what DIDN`T bother some peoples consciences eh?
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Abigail
Oldies,
"The bible is the "written word". Jesus is "the word in the flesh". They are both "the word."
TWI always taught that the written word takes the place of the absent Christ. Christ is not here in person, so the bible is here to take his place. "
Who (outside of TWI's twisted doctrine) says Christ is absent? Is it not "Christ in you the hope of glory" And if it is - then Christ is not absent - he is present inside you.
Additionally,
"I do think a case can be made that twi worships the bible ... but whether that's idolatry is another matter, since "God and his Word" are one in the same (John 1:1)."
Now you are arguing for the trinity. If God and his word are literally one, and Jesus was literally the word made manifest in the flesh, then Jesus and God are literally one and viola, you have the trinity. That being the case, worshipping Jesus is no more "sin" than worshipping the Bible.
Somehow, I find it difficult to believe God's desire was for people to worship the Bible.
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oldiesman
How is everyone defining "worship"?
How does one know they are "worshipping" something, as opposed to loving, respecting, etc. etc.?
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rascal
I suppose one would know by examining the FRUIT that one manifests in their life ;-)
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igotout
Well, I am not sure about each individual person's state of mind concerning worship or idolatry no more than I can be sure about a member of the Catholic Church. I am less critical of others religious choices since being kicked out of TWI in 2000. Who am I to judge? I am sure I have my own personal "idolatries" in life. Perhaps I am a "workaholator" at times.
:D-->
All I can do is speak of my own experience and let others decide for themselves.
But I will say that I have seen leaders and non leaders in TWI who put the "Word" before ANYTHING including their own children and families, before their job, before being able to provide a decent living, even before their own health in some instances.
They justified it because they heard the echoes in their minds of such ridiculous statements as
"It's The Word!, The Word!, and NOTHING BUT The Word!!"
and
"We have NO FRIENDS when it comes to The Word."
and
"The Word is the (Way) Ministry and the (Way) Ministry is The Word."
(C'mon, you know darn good and well that the parenthetical "Way Ministry" was implied strongly. No argument is possible there.)
Heck, I honestly think that some hard core ones I was around were so "Word brainwashed" that they put the Word before God. Yes, it is possible to do, don't kid yourself.
John R
Tampa, FL
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Lightside
We were taught so vigoriously that Jesus was not God, but an human being that when he ascended to the right hand of God, many still think he is this human being. Paul says he is a quickening spirit, right now. I Corinth 15:45
So, if Christ is a quickening spirit, with all power and all authority and he is in us, Christ in us, the hope of glory, then he is not absent, but very much present, manifesting himself, thru us, as we believe what he said and also believe what the Word of God says about him.
Little note: After pentecost, with Jesus gone to heaven, the twelve and the 70 and even more and more believers walked performing miracles on a daily basis and guess what? There were no church epistles or gospels around for them to read.
Man, did we ever miss it, BIG TIME.
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rascal
Yup
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Catcup
"But oldies, TWI hasn't been around nearly as long as the RC church. Just give TWI time to catch up!"
The only thing that kept TWI from already catching up to the Roman Catholic Church and its atrocities is the separation of church and state in our own government.
The reason the RC church could conduct inquisitions was the blending of head of church and state.
What would have kept LCM from running his own inquisition?
"Some of us would gladly execute you..."
He made it very clear that if he had his way, anyone he decided to accuse of being homosexual would have been EXECUTED. And GLADLY at that.
The only thing separating The Way International and the Roman Church when it conducted inquisitions is simply time and geographical location.
The only thing that prevents it is our form of government.
You think they've changed their minds on the issue since LCM is gone?
Bad publicity and stings to their pocketbook are the only things keeping that cult in check.
The murderous attitude is still lurking beneath the surface.
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CoolWaters
Since we are talking about the bible, I think it right to let the bible do the defining.
If one does a search of the bible for the word "worship", one will find it used 198 times in 188 verses...according to my search results from bibleontheweb.com (this includes results for "worshipped", "worshippers", "worshipping", and "worshippeth"...and I'm not going to take the time to separate it all).
For the most part, when the bible talks of worshipping anything there are two associated acts: bowing down and sacrificing.
The lyrics of twi's "God-breathed Word" are absolutely about bowing down.
As for sacrificing, twi has sacrificed many, many humans to their idol. Beginning with little children all the way to the aged.
TWI has always bragged that they have no friends when it comes to 'the word'...even to the point of rejecting the true friend of Jesus.
John R is right when he points out that twi has always rejected the very idea of Jesus...that twi has gone as far as saying that there is a 'devil spirit' named Jesus.
TWI has to admit to the resurrection of Jesus so that they can get in on that grace and have a season of the flesh...
But twi will damn anybody to hell for even mentioning the cross...so much is twi against the cross that twi bragged to all the world that when twi bought churches from other denominations, the first thing twi did was remove the cross from atop the steeples...
And I know how proud twi was of doing so...I was there for the desecration of the chapel on the Emporia campus.
This would not be any big deal to me normally...
People can believe what they want to believe...
But twi is deceitful and is using a form of godliness for their own pleasures.
TWI is also this aptly described in the bible:
And here:
And here:
And on and on throughout the rest of II Peter and on into Jude where twi is summed up quite nicely.
The power of God is in the work of Jesus...in his miracles while he walked in the flesh, in his crucifixion, in his ascension and in his outpouring.
Rejecting any part of Jesus' work is rejecting the power of God.
TWI rejects the outpouring first and foremost. By teaching that Jesus is absent, twi is rejecting the outpouring. The bible is very clear that Jesus sent the Comforter.
TWI rejects the trinity, therefore rejecting what even Jesus said about himself. As OM pointed out so well, twi muddies the waters of truth to fit their need to be idolatrous.
TWI rejects the cross. TWI needs to be their own saviors.
Again, none of this would be so bothersome if TWI was being honest about these things.
But, as can be seen here, twi touts the bible, and, later on that same page, twi states, "The Way is a fellowship of the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the manifestation of the more abundant life."
Double-minded, lying, idolatrous...
Even unto suing other churches and other peoples who follow Jesus, the only True Way, twi rejects Jesus.
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Abigail
aaaaa"How is everyone defining "worship"?
How does one know they are "worshipping" something, as opposed to loving, respecting, etc. etc.? "
That is just sad, Oldies. Can you respond to my response to you or are you just going to continue to flounder and dodge?
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