I'm getting the idea that twi settled out of the goodness of its cold heart.
TWI settled for two reasons:
1. Pat gave up the domain name, so they got what they wanted.
2. Pat wouldn't be able to pay the legal fees even if they prevailed on that matter, so it would be a total waste of their time to get a judgment against him. It would cost them more to get the judgment than to agree to pay their own fees.
I'm guessing on both points, but it's the only reason that makes sense to me. (And lest it appear that I'm making an issue of Pat's finances, which I am not, let me add that I would not have been able to carry this as far, financially, as Pat did).
I mean, if the court were to order Pat to pay twi's legal fees, then twi could collect from now to eternity until the debt is paid. All it takes is a demand for the money every so often to keep the order alive into perpetuity.
Of course, Pat would have had certain options open to him if he needed them...
But twi settling because Pat couldn't afford their attorneys is flimsy, imo...because getting it that far into court...all the way to jury trial...and then winning (which is the assumption when putting forth that Pat wouldn't be able to pay the attorney fees)...well sheesh! Sounds like a total victory for twi. Imagine the spin twi could put on "we were forced by Mr R to go all the way to jury trial and the jury found in our favor"!
It's not in twi's nature to stop just short of the jugular...or maybe it is...maybe you all know something about twi I don't...
If twi's attorneys were so sure they'd get what they wanted, why even take it to Federal Court at all?
I don't think TWI was being nice to Pat. I think they knew he couldn't afford to pay and, as such, they would be the ones stuck with the bill. And for what? To get the domain name that Pat already gave up? Once he gave up the domain name, paying TWI's lawyers was the only remaining issue. The longer TWI dragged it out, the more it would cost TWI. Nothing nice there at all. Just cold and practical, imo.
quote:If twi's attorneys were so sure they'd get what they wanted, why even take it to Federal Court at all?
We're talking about the settlement: they knew they'd get what they wanted because they asked for it (politely) and Pat (rightly) gave it to them. Had they not taken this to court, they would have had to buy the domain name from Pat, which (as Long Gone pointed out) would have legitimized Pat's claim to the domain name. TWI did exactly what a good lawyer would have told them to do: take this to court.
I admit I'm stumped on their choice of venue (not being a lawyer, I can't answer why they went to Fed court instead of an arbitration board or whatever). But I don't think they're choice of venue invalidates their claim in the slightest.
Yet this could have been the case of cases for twi...setting precedent and everything...so that all twi would need to do in the future would be to have one attorney send out a form letter to any possible violators...citing this case as won...not as settled...which only means compromises were made and agreements were reached...
I don't get it.
If all twi wanted was the domain name, why the expense of Federal Court? Why not just that domain thingy Pat's talking about that handles these things?
If they wanted more than the domain name, then the case would still be going on.
The idea that this is about something other than the domain name is fiction, as proven by the fact that once TWI GOT the domain name, the case was dropped. There was nothing else to argue over. I can't explain their choice of venue, but there's one inescapable fact: once TWI got the domain name, the case was dropped. It's all they were after, no matter how many times anyone screams otherwise.
OK...we've got to quit adding to our posts after they've been posted! LOL!
:)-->
I think I need to get off this subject entirely. I haven't said anything new in about nine posts. Was it you or someone else who asked me if my face was blue yet?
"not being a lawyer, I can't answer why they went to Fed court instead of an arbitration board or whatever)."
Arbitration/facillitation is not eliminated as a course of action until the jury makes a decision. At any point in time prior to a verdict the parties can agree to mediation and/or the judge can order them into mediation.
In this case, it is to Pat's benefit that this did not happen, as then he would have had the added cost of 1/2 the fees for the arbitrators/facilitators.
As to the rest, I know nothing about trademark laws. I think Raf and LongGone make some valid points but to me the BIGGER point is that TWI had to shell out more money in legal fees and that is a good thing.
CW: They needed to get Pat's part of this in writing; a settlement does this far more effectively than dropping the case.
Abi: Does that work with trademark infringement cases? I honestly don't know: do all trademark infringement cases go to fed court first? I'm under the impression that this is not the case.
I guess I don't understand why anyone is so happy that TWI had to spend money. While it's a lot of money to you and to me (especially to me), it's not a lot of money to them. Their investment accounts probably burp that money out every now and then. I take no glee in the fact that this cost them anything. Now, if they had to pay Pat $50,000, or pay his legal fees, I could see being pleased. But the only people to see this money are TWI's lawyers. This makes us happy? Now that is something I don't get.
....But the only people to see this money are TWI's lawyers. This makes us happy? Now _that_ is something I don't get.
The reason it makes me happy (and I can only speak for myself) is that it's just another pock mark on how twi spends abs.
Also, the very idea that twi is acting like a certain mega corporation (that I don't dare name because they might want to sue me for something stupid like using a word like golden or a word like arches) instead of a church is very interesting indeed...
quote: That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but as LG said, they can also prevail by being on the right side of the law and the facts. Nothing you have said or done has established that they were wrong on either front, no matter how often or how loudly you insist that it's so.
Long Gone: Could you kindly answer the two questions below:
1) What are the elements of trademark Infringement
2) Why are there laws against trademark infringement
quote:Did you receive your answers to interrogatories and your request for production of documents?
No. They were due in a few weeks if TWI hadn't settled.
"Abi: Does that work with trademark infringement cases? I honestly don't know: do all trademark infringement cases go to fed court first? I'm under the impression that this is not the case."
I do not know if all trademark infringement cases go to federal court first. Jursidiction and venue can get very complicated depending on the nature of the case and the type of case. Additionally, one can request a change in venue for numerous reasons. I know very little about trademark law. What I do have a decent understanding of is civil law in general.
That being said, yes arbitration would still be possible. Most judges would prefer to see a case go into some type of mediation and would not deny such a request if both parties are agreeable to it.
We recently had a medical malpractice case get moved to arbitration they day of the trial, in the midst of jury selection.
quote:It may have, if TWI had simply discovered TWIM, but that's not what happened. What happened was that Pat sought to cause trouble for TWI by informing TWIM of TWI's pending trademark applications.
Liar. And how would you know what went on? Reading your crystal ball? You make all kinds of wild assumptions about my motives without a shred of evidence. Liar
"According to the paperwork we were given by the clerk of the district court when we filed in Fed Court, above 90% of pro se cases are thrown out as soon as a motion for summary judgement is filed because this is the stage where that many pro se litigants become hopelessly lost.
Pat carried it all the way to settlement."
CW, technically speaking, the fact that Pat and TWI settled means little in terms of his legal skills. In this case, discovery was never completed and the motion stage never reached. Yes, Pat filed a motion for summary disposition(prematurely) but TWI never filed a motion for a directed verdict, nor did they have time to.
Additionally, in this case if the judge HAD granted a motion to dismiss the case, Pat would have been the victor, not the loser.
That being said, I'm sure it was still a good experience for Pat, in terms of getting his feet wet in the legal system.
p.s. Raf, I'd rather see the money in the hands of the lawyers than in the hands of TWI. At least the attorneys make little pretense about who they are and what they do.
If a dispute is only about a domain name such as a few posters keep insisting, the proper proceedure would be to bring the dispute to the organization below. The judge would have also insisted on this as it would have been the correct venue to handle the dispute.
WIPO's resolution service offers highly qualified neutral panelists, thorough and expeditious administrative procedures, and overall impartiality and credibility. Dispute resolution at WIPO is much faster than normal litigation in the courts. A domain name case filed with WIPO is normally concluded within two months, using on-line procedures, whereas litigation can take much longer. Fees are also much lower than normal litigation. There are no in-person hearings, except in extraordinary cases. Minimal filing requirements also help reduce costs. For resolution of a case involving one to five domain names, with a single panelist, the current cost is US$ 1,500; for three panelists, the total cost is US$ 4,000. For six to ten domain names, the current cost is US$ 2,000 for a case involving a sole panelist and US$ 5,000 for a case involving three panelists.
What are the results of the procedures, and are they binding?
A domain name is either transferred or the complaint is denied and the respondent keeps the domain name. It is also possible to seek cancellation of the domain name.
There are no monetary damages applied in UDRP domain name disputes, and no injunctive relief is available. The accredited domain name registrars - which have agreed to abide by the UDRP - implement a decision after a period of ten days, unless the decision is appealed in court in that time. The panel decisions are mandatory in the sense that accredited registrars are bound to take the necessary steps to enforce a decision, such as transferring the name concerned. However, under the UDRP, either party retains the option to take the dispute to a court of competent jurisdiction for independent resolution. In practice, this is a relatively rare occurrence.
quote:Yes, Pat filed a motion for summary disposition(prematurely)
How do you know this? A motion for summary judgement can be filed at any time if its basis is by law. TWI did not have a legal position that current case and statutory law recognized.
I am still amazed that some of you are out to f**k with Pat. I stick by my opinion that any money twi DOESNT HAVE (because they spend it on lawyers) is a good thing.
5 years ago I was putting my money on the fact that one lawsuit or the other would bankrupt twi. Now, I don't believe that way, but I do believe that the ex-way community has the power to eat away at their coffers, reduce their influence and end their empire...one day, one lawsuit at a time.
Because pursuing the matter any further than necessary to get what it wanted would have been a waste of time and money. TWI did not want to sue Pat. It simply wanted Pat to stop infringing on its trademark(s), specifically through his ownership and use of the "thewayinternational.com" domain name. If Pat had done in December what he finally did in October, TWI wouldn’t have sued him.
quote:Originally posted by CoolWaters:
If twi's attorneys were so sure they'd get what they wanted, why even take it to Federal Court at all?
Obviously, I can’t answer for them, but I can state what I think. Pat probably doesn’t know it, but he provided part of the answer (in a post later than the one I’m currently addressing). It boils down to a District Court ruling having the force of law, which a WIPO UDRP ruling does not.
The accredited domain name registrars - which have agreed to abide by the UDRP - implement a decision after a period of ten days, unless the decision is appealed in court in that time. The panel decisions are mandatory in the sense that accredited registrars are bound to take the necessary steps to enforce a decision, such as transferring the name concerned. However, under the UDRP, either party retains the option to take the dispute to a court of competent jurisdiction for independent resolution.
In other words, a WIPO ruling is binding (by agreement, not law) on the registrars, but not on the parties. Either party may take the matter to court if it doesn’t like the WIPO ruling. Given Pat’s previous actions, I can understand TWI taking the matter directly to a U.S. District Court, which has original jurisdiction in such matters.
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Raf
TWI settled for two reasons:
1. Pat gave up the domain name, so they got what they wanted.
2. Pat wouldn't be able to pay the legal fees even if they prevailed on that matter, so it would be a total waste of their time to get a judgment against him. It would cost them more to get the judgment than to agree to pay their own fees.
I'm guessing on both points, but it's the only reason that makes sense to me. (And lest it appear that I'm making an issue of Pat's finances, which I am not, let me add that I would not have been able to carry this as far, financially, as Pat did).
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CoolWaters
So twi was just being nice to Pat?
I mean, if the court were to order Pat to pay twi's legal fees, then twi could collect from now to eternity until the debt is paid. All it takes is a demand for the money every so often to keep the order alive into perpetuity.
Of course, Pat would have had certain options open to him if he needed them...
But twi settling because Pat couldn't afford their attorneys is flimsy, imo...because getting it that far into court...all the way to jury trial...and then winning (which is the assumption when putting forth that Pat wouldn't be able to pay the attorney fees)...well sheesh! Sounds like a total victory for twi. Imagine the spin twi could put on "we were forced by Mr R to go all the way to jury trial and the jury found in our favor"!
It's not in twi's nature to stop just short of the jugular...or maybe it is...maybe you all know something about twi I don't...
If twi's attorneys were so sure they'd get what they wanted, why even take it to Federal Court at all?
I just don't understand this reasoning at all.
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Raf
I don't think TWI was being nice to Pat. I think they knew he couldn't afford to pay and, as such, they would be the ones stuck with the bill. And for what? To get the domain name that Pat already gave up? Once he gave up the domain name, paying TWI's lawyers was the only remaining issue. The longer TWI dragged it out, the more it would cost TWI. Nothing nice there at all. Just cold and practical, imo.
We're talking about the settlement: they knew they'd get what they wanted because they asked for it (politely) and Pat (rightly) gave it to them. Had they not taken this to court, they would have had to buy the domain name from Pat, which (as Long Gone pointed out) would have legitimized Pat's claim to the domain name. TWI did exactly what a good lawyer would have told them to do: take this to court.
I admit I'm stumped on their choice of venue (not being a lawyer, I can't answer why they went to Fed court instead of an arbitration board or whatever). But I don't think they're choice of venue invalidates their claim in the slightest.
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CoolWaters
Yet this could have been the case of cases for twi...setting precedent and everything...so that all twi would need to do in the future would be to have one attorney send out a form letter to any possible violators...citing this case as won...not as settled...which only means compromises were made and agreements were reached...
I don't get it.
If all twi wanted was the domain name, why the expense of Federal Court? Why not just that domain thingy Pat's talking about that handles these things?
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CoolWaters
OK...we've got to quit adding to our posts after they've been posted! LOL!
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Raf
If they wanted more than the domain name, then the case would still be going on.
The idea that this is about something other than the domain name is fiction, as proven by the fact that once TWI GOT the domain name, the case was dropped. There was nothing else to argue over. I can't explain their choice of venue, but there's one inescapable fact: once TWI got the domain name, the case was dropped. It's all they were after, no matter how many times anyone screams otherwise.
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Raf
I think I need to get off this subject entirely. I haven't said anything new in about nine posts. Was it you or someone else who asked me if my face was blue yet?
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CoolWaters
Yeah...
But this is bugging the heck out of me!!! LOL
Now if twi had actually dropped the case (they brought it, they could have dropped it), all of this reasoning would make sense...
But they went all the way to settlement...
There's something there that I just can't put my finger on...
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CoolWaters
Wasn't me...
I said you were going bald...
Tee hee!
;)-->
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Abigail
An aside from the settlement issue. . . .
"not being a lawyer, I can't answer why they went to Fed court instead of an arbitration board or whatever)."
Arbitration/facillitation is not eliminated as a course of action until the jury makes a decision. At any point in time prior to a verdict the parties can agree to mediation and/or the judge can order them into mediation.
In this case, it is to Pat's benefit that this did not happen, as then he would have had the added cost of 1/2 the fees for the arbitrators/facilitators.
As to the rest, I know nothing about trademark laws. I think Raf and LongGone make some valid points but to me the BIGGER point is that TWI had to shell out more money in legal fees and that is a good thing.
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Raf
CW: They needed to get Pat's part of this in writing; a settlement does this far more effectively than dropping the case.
Abi: Does that work with trademark infringement cases? I honestly don't know: do all trademark infringement cases go to fed court first? I'm under the impression that this is not the case.
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Raf
I guess I don't understand why anyone is so happy that TWI had to spend money. While it's a lot of money to you and to me (especially to me), it's not a lot of money to them. Their investment accounts probably burp that money out every now and then. I take no glee in the fact that this cost them anything. Now, if they had to pay Pat $50,000, or pay his legal fees, I could see being pleased. But the only people to see this money are TWI's lawyers. This makes us happy? Now that is something I don't get.
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CoolWaters
The reason it makes me happy (and I can only speak for myself) is that it's just another pock mark on how twi spends abs.
Also, the very idea that twi is acting like a certain mega corporation (that I don't dare name because they might want to sue me for something stupid like using a word like golden or a word like arches) instead of a church is very interesting indeed...
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Abigail
Pat,
Did you receive your answers to interrogatories and your request for production of documents?
If so, are you going to post them?
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pjroberge
Long Gone: Could you kindly answer the two questions below:
1) What are the elements of trademark Infringement
2) Why are there laws against trademark infringement
No. They were due in a few weeks if TWI hadn't settled.Link to comment
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Abigail
"Abi: Does that work with trademark infringement cases? I honestly don't know: do all trademark infringement cases go to fed court first? I'm under the impression that this is not the case."
I do not know if all trademark infringement cases go to federal court first. Jursidiction and venue can get very complicated depending on the nature of the case and the type of case. Additionally, one can request a change in venue for numerous reasons. I know very little about trademark law. What I do have a decent understanding of is civil law in general.
That being said, yes arbitration would still be possible. Most judges would prefer to see a case go into some type of mediation and would not deny such a request if both parties are agreeable to it.
We recently had a medical malpractice case get moved to arbitration they day of the trial, in the midst of jury selection.
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Eagle
PJ:
Have you picked up your Ex-TWI Purple Heart yet?
Eagle
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pjroberge
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pjroberge
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Abigail
"According to the paperwork we were given by the clerk of the district court when we filed in Fed Court, above 90% of pro se cases are thrown out as soon as a motion for summary judgement is filed because this is the stage where that many pro se litigants become hopelessly lost.
Pat carried it all the way to settlement."
CW, technically speaking, the fact that Pat and TWI settled means little in terms of his legal skills. In this case, discovery was never completed and the motion stage never reached. Yes, Pat filed a motion for summary disposition(prematurely) but TWI never filed a motion for a directed verdict, nor did they have time to.
Additionally, in this case if the judge HAD granted a motion to dismiss the case, Pat would have been the victor, not the loser.
That being said, I'm sure it was still a good experience for Pat, in terms of getting his feet wet in the legal system.
p.s. Raf, I'd rather see the money in the hands of the lawyers than in the hands of TWI. At least the attorneys make little pretense about who they are and what they do.
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pjroberge
Abigail:
If a dispute is only about a domain name such as a few posters keep insisting, the proper proceedure would be to bring the dispute to the organization below. The judge would have also insisted on this as it would have been the correct venue to handle the dispute.
WIPO's resolution service offers highly qualified neutral panelists, thorough and expeditious administrative procedures, and overall impartiality and credibility. Dispute resolution at WIPO is much faster than normal litigation in the courts. A domain name case filed with WIPO is normally concluded within two months, using on-line procedures, whereas litigation can take much longer. Fees are also much lower than normal litigation. There are no in-person hearings, except in extraordinary cases. Minimal filing requirements also help reduce costs. For resolution of a case involving one to five domain names, with a single panelist, the current cost is US$ 1,500; for three panelists, the total cost is US$ 4,000. For six to ten domain names, the current cost is US$ 2,000 for a case involving a sole panelist and US$ 5,000 for a case involving three panelists.
What are the results of the procedures, and are they binding?
A domain name is either transferred or the complaint is denied and the respondent keeps the domain name. It is also possible to seek cancellation of the domain name.
There are no monetary damages applied in UDRP domain name disputes, and no injunctive relief is available. The accredited domain name registrars - which have agreed to abide by the UDRP - implement a decision after a period of ten days, unless the decision is appealed in court in that time. The panel decisions are mandatory in the sense that accredited registrars are bound to take the necessary steps to enforce a decision, such as transferring the name concerned. However, under the UDRP, either party retains the option to take the dispute to a court of competent jurisdiction for independent resolution. In practice, this is a relatively rare occurrence.
http://arbiter.wipo.int/center/faq/domains.html#5
How do you know this? A motion for summary judgement can be filed at any time if its basis is by law. TWI did not have a legal position that current case and statutory law recognized.Link to comment
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sky4it
proberge:
belated congrats. Also I think it was noble of you to be of assistance to so many. God Bless yah
sky
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Radar OReilly
I am still amazed that some of you are out to f**k with Pat. I stick by my opinion that any money twi DOESNT HAVE (because they spend it on lawyers) is a good thing.
5 years ago I was putting my money on the fact that one lawsuit or the other would bankrupt twi. Now, I don't believe that way, but I do believe that the ex-way community has the power to eat away at their coffers, reduce their influence and end their empire...one day, one lawsuit at a time.
ror
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LG
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